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BRDSR
02-04-2005, 01:53 AM
I thought of this question reading another thread. Which do you love more? Baseball or the White Sox? For instance, would you like to see the White Sox win a World Series with a couple of key players obviously on the juice, or would you like to see baseball the clean, unadulterated game it was before steroids became an issue? I guess I'm not entirely sure what I'm getting at because it's late and I'm tired and my cream soda is running out, but which do you love more? The game of baseball or the Chicago White Sox. I will admit that I don't have a good answer for this question.

MUsoxfan
02-04-2005, 01:58 AM
That's a weird question because in theory you wouldn't be able to love the White Sox without loving baseball. I LOVE the game of baseball. I go to about 50 baseball games a year ranging from Sox games, Brewers games, minor league games, and even a couple H.S. games. Baseball is far and away my favorite sport, and I live for the White Sox above anything else.

I guess my answer is you can't have one without the other if you're posting on this board.

Jabroni
02-04-2005, 02:21 AM
Just say NO to the juice! Fans don't like players who are on roids.

http://www.drugfreeaz.com/images_druginfo/steroids_photo.jpg


:nandrolone
"Whatchoo talkin' bout Willis?"


http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_111188.jpg
"Bah! Don't listen to him Sammy. That's a load of BS. The fans will still love you even if you're on roids."


http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/images/2005/02/02/wCqIfE6O.jpg
"Yeah, dey love me here in Balteemo! Now dat I'm a Oreo, dis is MY house!"

jcw218
02-04-2005, 02:27 AM
My take on this questiuon is would we still be able to "love" the White Sox as much if we were to win the World Series with player(s) taking performance enhancing drugs or would our support for the team lessen because of it. I would be both happy and disappointed if the above occured. Happy that the team one the championship but disappointed with the fact that a few of our players felt that they had to stoop to that level to get the job done.

I for one would like to see tougher penalties for players caught using performance enhancing drugs.

Fredsox
02-04-2005, 06:10 AM
I've seen two kinds of cheating in baseball. The first kind is the "gamesmanship" type. An example was when Gene Bossard used to freeze the baseballs in the 60's to favor the Sox pitching staff, or they way he used to adjust the angle of the baseline to keep the Sox player's bunts fair. The Sox have been accused numerous times over the year of stealing signs. I can live with that kind of cheating, in fact I can laugh about it and say "too bad".

The other kind of cheating includes steroids, corked bats, betting on the games. I think those go to the root of baseball and the integrity of the game. I cannot live with that.

As much as I love the Sox, I could not support a team or a player (insert Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi here) that cheated to that extreme.

Jurr
02-04-2005, 08:06 AM
This is an odd question. Are we just talking about baseball or are we talking about steroids? Performance enhancers aren't going away, and every athlete in the world is going to take some form of enhancer, whether it's a new synthetic androgen, creatine, or whatever. As long as there's tons of money to be made by creators of supplements and there's a market, it's going to be in sports for good.
It might as well be a part of the game, because it's not going anywhere. I know people say it's not fair due to the integrity of the records that are being broken, but that's just a part of life. New technology helps golfers hit the ball further, helps NASCAR drivers get around the track faster, and football players stay in the game longer. As these evolutions occur, records are going to go down. Track athletes have technology on muscle typing and can target those muscles to train, thus increasing their contraction velocity. This makes a track athlete much more explosive than a guy in say, 1940. Those records fall, as well. I'm not condoning steroid use, but I do know that it's not going to leave any time soon, and some other enhancer is going to pop up before anybody knows how to screen for it or detect it. I just don't think we can get caught up in the catch word 'steroids' and think it's some dispicable evil that needs to be wiped out. It's not making that huge a difference, and just about every ball player is using something. It's only the high profile guys that get caught. Now, I'm going to jump off the soapbox.

I am a huge baseball fan from the historical aspect. Bill James' abstract and the baseball encyclopedia are on my coffee table, and I'm currently reading Game Time by Roger Angell (a must read). I watch games whenever I can, and the White Sox feed me into the pipeline of baseball because it's a team I am passionate about. But, if the Sox aren't in it, I still watch the WS and all of the games leading up to it. It's going to be great watching the Sox win a title one day, but I've got to say I'm a bigger baseball fan in general than a Sox fan (and that's hard to say).
For any of you younger fans out there, I suggest you get the Bill James book and get a history lesson about the game. It's so much fun, and it really makes you appreciate how deep this game really is.

Church Turtle
02-04-2005, 08:28 AM
I'm for the tougher penalties too. I don't worry about the integrity of records and such so much, I'm concerned about the message steroid use sends to high school, maybe even junior high students.

we all want the SOX to win the WS, but if they're sending a mixed message to the young fans, that we are trying to foster (how family-friendly is the Cell - I think they do a nice job) even a WS wouldn't be worth it. And can you imagine if they won the WS, then it came out that players A B and C were on the juice? It'd be worse than the black sox scandal. (Buck Weaver and Shoeless Joe didn't have to contend with 24 hour sports cable-casters.)

Realist
02-04-2005, 08:37 AM
I loved the White Sox long before I developed a true love for the game of baseball so I blame the White Sox for me not paying enough attention to my lady friends during the summer months. God knows I'm completely innocent so I gotta blame somebody.
:wink:

jake27
02-04-2005, 09:59 AM
I'm a baseball fan 1st, white sox fan 2nd. ill watch basebal any time anywhere... high school, college, minor league, etc. it doesnt have to be the white sox i watch, ill enjoy it any way. but watching the white sox does make it a heck of a lot better

tebman
02-04-2005, 10:44 AM
I've seen two kinds of cheating in baseball. The first kind is the "gamesmanship" type. An example was when Gene Bossard used to freeze the baseballs in the 60's to favor the Sox pitching staff, or they way he used to adjust the angle of the baseline to keep the Sox player's bunts fair. The Sox have been accused numerous times over the year of stealing signs. I can live with that kind of cheating, in fact I can laugh about it and say "too bad".

The other kind of cheating includes steroids, corked bats, betting on the games. I think those go to the root of baseball and the integrity of the game. I cannot live with that.

As much as I love the Sox, I could not support a team or a player (insert Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi here) that cheated to that extreme.
Complete agreement here. Baseball-freezing, sign-stealing, turf-trimming, etc., are not things I consider cheating because they affect both teams equally. Drugs, corked bats, and bets are in a whole different category because they insidiously change the balance of the game.

The visiting team can (and does) look at the field and judge the condition of the turf, check the roll of the ball on the lines, etc. Trying to devine what the other team is going to do next is the whole point of the game -- call it sign-stealing if you want, I call it smart baseball. It's the job of the team to maintain a collective poker face and not telegraph their punches.

But if a player has medicated himself so that he's unnaturally strong, or if the basic tools (bat, glove) have been altered in a way that gives an unnatural advantage, that's cheating. I guess "natural balance" is the key phrase that makes the distinction.

Now, when I'm Commissioner, I'll take care of all this. :tongue:

- tebman

mweflen
02-04-2005, 10:47 AM
I give the edge to the Sox over baseball by just a tad. The concept of team and urban identity is more potent to me than the concept of an eternal game in the american landscape - but not by much. Baseball is my favorite sport and a beautiful game - but I'd have a hard time watching it if it were a team I despised playing a team I cared little about.

Wait a minute... that sounds like the playoffs every year! :smile: So I take that back - if I can root against a team, I still enjoy watching non-Sox baseball. But I don't root for anyone else but the Sox.

(as far as other sports go, I give the edge to the Bulls over basketball by far, same for the Bears.)

SoxWillWin
02-04-2005, 11:55 AM
I guess my answer is you can't have one without the other if you're posting on this board.

I completely agree. It's hard to love a team more than the sport it plays. I have a passion for baseball, and a love for the sox. I will gladly watch any game that I can but would choose a sox game over any others.:bandance:

longshot7
02-04-2005, 12:24 PM
I vote for the juice. Who cares what they're on if they bring back a championship?

SoxWillWin
02-04-2005, 12:49 PM
I give the edge to the Sox over baseball by just a tad. The concept of team and urban identity is more potent to me than the concept of an eternal game in the american landscape - but not by much.


You make a good point about the urban Identity.

RKMeibalane
02-04-2005, 12:52 PM
I love baseball. The White Sox are my favorite team, but if they didn't exist, I probably would have found another team to root for. I would much rather the sport get cleaned up than I would watch a cheating Sox team win the World Series. The integrity of the game is more important than the fortunes of one team.

pudge
02-04-2005, 01:51 PM
I'm trying to make sense of it, but I don't see how the White Sox would exist without baseball, so since you can't have one without the other, it seems to be a moot point.

popilius
02-04-2005, 02:59 PM
The way I look at it, nothing transcends the game. Baseball is genius, Baseball is art, Baseball is life itself. If the White Sox would suddenly disappear into a warp zone of some sort, Baseball as a concept would transcend the universe as pure energy and traverse beyond the infinite as a wave of absolute truth.


:gulp:

mweflen
02-04-2005, 03:02 PM
The way I look at it, nothing transcends the game. Baseball is genius, Baseball is art, Baseball is life itself. If the White Sox would suddenly disappear into a warp zone of some sort, Baseball as a concept would transcend the universe as pure energy and traverse beyond the infinite as a wave of absolute truth.


:gulp:

Not :gulp:

More like: :bong:

Sorry man, we don't have a Socrates smiley.
:peace:

OurBitchinMinny
02-04-2005, 03:03 PM
Its a weird question, but thought provoking. You cant have one without the other. I love the sox, but baseball has been an important part of my life. For example if someone said to me that the sox are guaranteed to win a title, but then baseball would cease to exist, Id rather they didnt win it. I guess no player or even team is bigger than the game

popilius
02-04-2005, 04:03 PM
Not :gulp:

More like: :bong:

Sorry man, we don't have a Socrates smiley.
:peace:

:)

Jurr
02-04-2005, 06:26 PM
Complete agreement here. Baseball-freezing, sign-stealing, turf-trimming, etc., are not things I consider cheating because they affect both teams equally. Drugs, corked bats, and bets are in a whole different category because they insidiously change the balance of the game.

The visiting team can (and does) look at the field and judge the condition of the turf, check the roll of the ball on the lines, etc. Trying to devine what the other team is going to do next is the whole point of the game -- call it sign-stealing if you want, I call it smart baseball. It's the job of the team to maintain a collective poker face and not telegraph their punches.

But if a player has medicated himself so that he's unnaturally strong, or if the basic tools (bat, glove) have been altered in a way that gives an unnatural advantage, that's cheating. I guess "natural balance" is the key phrase that makes the distinction.

Now, when I'm Commissioner, I'll take care of all this. :tongue:

- tebman

You make some very good points, especially with the corked bat talk. However, with steroids and those types of enhancers, you can bet your bottom dollar that most of the players are or have at some point taken some of these supplements. It still comes down to hand eye coordination, but for a guy to see someone else put a ball through the zone quicker because of some muscle, there becomes an interest in "keeping up with the Joneses"....now, just because one is taking a steroid doesn't mean they will always look totally ripped. That has to do with diet and water intake. You can take a 'roid and still have body fat on you, like a John Kruk. They may be very strong, but don't have the totally buff body because of diet. I'm pretty sure that most guys in the leagues are taking some sort of enhancer. It still doesn't make them lay off the 0-2 curve any better. And that's why the game isn't in the state of crisis that some like to believe it's in.

But, I agree....I wish they wouldn't do it. Especially for the kids.

kaufsox
02-05-2005, 12:22 PM
baseball first. I tend to gravitate to the team that I live near. I grew up an Indians fan, but since I've been in Chicago, I've morphed into a Sox fan, which has actually made going to Sox-Indian games a lot of fun with my Dad. As I look for an academic job in the near future, basically all I need is a satellite dish, minor league baseball and 2-3 golf courses near by. One of favorite things to do in the summer is stop by Thillen's and watch the little leaguers play. I wish there was a college team nearby as well, but you can't have everything...

HoustonAstros967
02-05-2005, 12:25 PM
As much as i love the Sox i have to say a clean game of baseball. People like Sammy who hit tons of homeruns on steroids shouldn't be allowed to keep going. Overall its a great move.

flo-B-flo
02-05-2005, 12:42 PM
The way I look at it, nothing transcends the game. Baseball is genius, Baseball is art, Baseball is life itself. If the White Sox would suddenly disappear into a warp zone of some sort, Baseball as a concept would transcend the universe as pure energy and traverse beyond the infinite as a wave of absolute truth.


:gulp: wow......totally tubular..... The '94 strike totally messed with my love for MLB. If it wasn't for my love affair with the SOX I really wouldn't give a rats butt about ML baseball. That written, I go to hs games and college games. Usually, when the Sox are out of the race, I don't get interested until playoff time.

Spicoli
02-05-2005, 07:49 PM
Flubs fans like their team more than the game. They are utterly selfish. They disrespect the game by throwing back home run balls, etc. because they think their team is greater than the game--indeed, they exclaim that the game is unjust to their beloved losers. They show up to the park to see the park and each other; hence their lack of baseball acumen and appreciation for what takes place on the field besides player antics like Shammy's running to right field.

Further, it is like a player who thinks he is more significant than the team, or even the game. Again, many of the Flubs' fan favorites echo this trait.

In sum, the game, baseball, stands above any partisan affinities. I love the White Sox and especially enjoy watching them play and, ideally, win. However, baseball the game is what matters most. Good fans of any particular team respect that and don't profane the game by behaving like ignorant fools at the games.