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Two By Four
01-31-2005, 08:59 PM
I am writing the new TV campaign for the Sox this season and I have a question...in one spot I need to reference the greatest White Sox fielder (in or out) of all time. Who is that? I was thinking Luis Aparicio. I am looking for a player that is both Hall of Fame material, but well known enough for average fans to recognize.

Any suggestions?

zach074
01-31-2005, 09:01 PM
I am writing the new TV campaign for the Sox this season and I have a question...in one spot I need to reference the greatest White Sox fielder (in or out) of all time. Who is that? I was thinking Luis Aparicio. I am looking for a player that is both Hall of Fame material, but well known enough for average fans to recognize.

Any suggestions?

I think it is pretty obvious that your choice would be Jimenez.

Realist
01-31-2005, 09:03 PM
Maybe it's too soon after his retirement from another team, but Robin Ventura was a great fielder for the Sox and he'd be known to the average fan. Ozzie actually wasn't too bad either. :wink:

Daver
01-31-2005, 09:04 PM
Nelson Fox would be my first choice, but if you are going to try and reach younger fans Robin Ventura would be a possibility.

Two By Four
01-31-2005, 09:07 PM
Maybe it's too soon after his retirement from another team, but Robin Ventura was a great fielder for the Sox and he'd be known to the average fan. Ozzie actually wasn't too bad either. :wink:

Both great suggestions, but I don't want a guy so fresh from another team like you mentioned and Ozzie is too much a part of the success of the current team that in this spot that would just be weird. Might look like I am trying to say something about him as a manger.

tebman
01-31-2005, 09:10 PM
I am writing the new TV campaign for the Sox this season and I have a question...in one spot I need to reference the greatest White Sox fielder (in or out) of all time. Who is that? I was thinking Luis Aparicio. I am looking for a player that is both Hall of Fame material, but well known enough for average fans to recognize.

Any suggestions?
Jim Landis played a great CF in the 60s.
Mike Squires was a gifted fielder as a utility player in the 70s - 80s.

But if you're looking for easily recognized, iconic names, Aparicio is probably your best choice.

- tebman

JUribe1989
01-31-2005, 09:14 PM
Luis Aparicio is easily the best fielder, but Ventura is easy for a fan to identify with and he is a complete class act.

Palehose13
01-31-2005, 09:17 PM
I am writing the new TV campaign for the Sox this season and I have a question...in one spot I need to reference the greatest White Sox fielder (in or out) of all time. Who is that? I was thinking Luis Aparicio. I am looking for a player that is both Hall of Fame material, but well known enough for average fans to recognize.

Any suggestions?

Luis Aparicio and Nellie Fox were the first two that came to mind. While growing up, my dad would tell me lots of stories of watching them while he was growing up. However, they were about 50 years ago and that may be too long ago for the "average" (read: casual) fan to recognize. I don't know much about the SouthSide Hitmen or if there were any good fielders on that team (I was only 3!). I am trying to think of someone from the '83 team, but I'm drawing a blank (other than Kittle, Fisk, The Bull, but from what I read, not the type of player you are looking for.). Baines and Ozzie come to mind, but once again are associated with the current team.

What about Joe Jackson? Is that too long ago or tainted from the 1919 scandal?

So I guess it comes back to Little Louie and Nellie.

jabrch
01-31-2005, 09:20 PM
Depends on the age of the target market. Ventura if it is younger. Aparicio if it is older...

Other options could be Fisk or Guillen - who are more recognizable to much younger fans.

Two By Four
01-31-2005, 09:29 PM
What about Joe Jackson? Is that too long ago or tainted from the 1919 scandal?

Joe was my first thought. Everyone knows him (young and old) and he was a good player. But what does everyone think about the scandal? Too tainted? My feeling is that most people believe he never cheated. Right or wrong?

jerry myers
01-31-2005, 09:30 PM
rOBIN WOULD BE GOOD OR oZZY I THINK IT SHOULD BE WITHIN THE LAST 20

Ol' No. 2
01-31-2005, 09:31 PM
As someone mentioned earlier, the answer will depend on your target audience. There were lots of great fielders years ago, but they might not be well-known enough. Aparicio/Fox would be some that might have appeal through the years. There were other good fielders on the '59 team. Jim Landis was mentioned. Minnie Minoso was a pretty good glove in his day. He was the original "crash". He would slam into the OF wall at full speed about once a week. He hit so hard he knocked himself out cold a few times. I think he single-handedly forced the ownership to install padding on the OF walls.

If you're going with someone more recent, Robin Ventura would get my vote. He has the advantage of not playing now, so might be available if you wanted to use him in person. Carlton Fisk would be a close second.

Palehose13
01-31-2005, 09:33 PM
Joe was my first thought. Everyone knows him (young and old) and he was a good player. But what does everyone think about the scandal? Too tainted? My feeling is that most people believe he never cheated. Right or wrong?

I don't think he did. From what I've read (which is limited), he got tangled in a bad situation. Besides, with "Field of Dreams" it seems to me that Joe Jackson may not be "taboo". TornLabrum or PaleHoseGeorge (or any other Sox historian :wink:) may be better able to answer that than I am.

Realist
01-31-2005, 09:33 PM
Joe was my first thought. Everyone knows him (young and old) and he was a good player. But what does everyone think about the scandal? Too tainted? My feeling is that most people believe he never cheated. Right or wrong?

You're right. Most of us don't believe he cheated and even the casual Sox fan knows who he is.

How about doing some digital magic and having Shoeless Joe gunning a guy down at the plate and the catcher is Carlton Fisk?

:bandance:

Palehose13
01-31-2005, 09:36 PM
You're right. Most of us don't believe he cheated and even the casual Sox fan knows who he is.

How about doing some digital magic and having Shoeless Joe gunning a guy down at the plate and the catcher is Carlton Fisk?

:bandance:

Ooooooohhhhhh...sweet! Gotta love when Carlton got two runners that were coming home on the same play. :D:

Two By Four
01-31-2005, 09:36 PM
Minnie Minoso was a pretty good glove in his day. He was the original "crash". He would slam into the OF wall at full speed about once a week. He hit so hard he knocked himself out cold a few times.

ACTUALLY, that makes a lot of sense. The whole campaign is shaping up around this new hard-nosed team baseball thing...so a great fielder like Minnie that played really hard might be the best route.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-31-2005, 09:38 PM
I am writing the new TV campaign for the Sox this season and I have a question...in one spot I need to reference the greatest White Sox fielder (in or out) of all time. Who is that? I was thinking Luis Aparicio. I am looking for a player that is both Hall of Fame material, but well known enough for average fans to recognize.

Any suggestions?

Historically speaking, you hit the sweet spot of Sox Fandom by invoking the names Fox and Aparicio. They're known by all generations, even we graying Sox Fans still too young to have seen them play. The defensive "strength up the middle" theme resonates with Sox Fans, too, making them the obvious choice.
:cool:

Jackson was known more for his bat than his glove. Most Sox Fans give him a pass for his alleged transgressions but you're setting yourself up for failure with the naysayers who think there is something sinister about South Side baseball. Take a pass.

There aren't any classic defensive Sox ballplayers on the current team. However Aaron Rowand is the one most Sox Fans identify with because he hustles and has the right attitude about making the most of the chances he is given.

I've been writing about this stuff a long time, BTW.
:wink:

Two By Four
01-31-2005, 09:40 PM
However Aaron Rowand is the one most Sox Fans identify with because he hustles and has the right attitude about making the most of the chances he is given.

Rowand is the current player in the spot...nice juxtaposition againt Luis.

Two By Four
01-31-2005, 09:43 PM
How about doing some digital magic and having Shoeless Joe gunning a guy down at the plate and the catcher is Carlton Fisk?:

You obviously haven't seen Brook's budget!! You think the ticket prices are low, try producing the tv on his budget! Less like digital magic and more like video card trick.

But the work will still be GREAT!

Palehose13
01-31-2005, 09:45 PM
You obviously haven't seen Brook's budget!! You think the ticket prices are low, try producing the tv on his budget! Less like digital magic and more like video card trick.

But the work will still be GREAT!

:roflmao:

I guess it's the same all over the organization.

Ol' No. 2
01-31-2005, 09:55 PM
Rowand is the current player in the spot...nice juxtaposition againt Luis.If Rowand is the current "crash" in the spot, it sounds like Minnie Minoso, the original "crash" would be ideal.

A. Cavatica
01-31-2005, 10:10 PM
Ray Schalk.

popilius
01-31-2005, 10:44 PM
The best pure fielder has to be Luis Aparicio, who won 7 gold gloves with the Sox. He was also a hero and icon to Latin American kids, especially Venezuelans who became shortstops, becuase of his play. Think Ozzie Guillen, Dave Concepcion, Chico Carresquel, Omar Vizquel. . . they all idolized Aparicio's play at short. :gulp:

jackbrohamer
01-31-2005, 10:50 PM
Ken Berry, CF in the late 1960s was supposedly not as good of a fielder as Landis but he has some great circus catches on film.

popilius
01-31-2005, 10:58 PM
Ken Berry, CF in the late 1960s was supposedly not as good of a fielder as Landis but he has some great circus catches on film.

Yes, I thought about mentioning Ken Berry, but usually only die-hard obsessive fans (like us) know about him now. . .

:gulp:

JUribe1989
01-31-2005, 11:31 PM
Joe was my first thought. Everyone knows him (young and old) and he was a good player. But what does everyone think about the scandal? Too tainted? My feeling is that most people believe he never cheated. Right or wrong?

I would love a campaign with Shoeless Joe

TornLabrum
01-31-2005, 11:47 PM
The problem is if you're going to use film, I don't know how much there is of any great plays by Aparicio. I'm sure there is virtually no TV from that timeframe. He was gone by the early '60s, and even though he came back later in the decade, I doubt if there is much film of that team. It was awful.

There is footage of Ken Berry robbing somebody of a home run that I've seen in an All-Star game film, right in the opening sequence where Curt Gowdy is describing some of the star-quality plays that had been made that year.

The best defensive Sox players I can remember are (in no particular order) Aparicio, Landis, Berry, Fox, and Guillen (before he and Tim Raines collided). The best single defensive play I've ever seen while at a game was Ray Durham's over-the-shoulder catch a few years ago running out into left field. (Was that opening night?)

Jackson must have been a pretty good fielder. When he was in left, it was known as the place "where triples go to die." Appling was considered to be a fine shortstop in his era, too.

Maybe rather than focusing on one player, in which case there may not be enough footage to work with, you might try looking at individual plays. You might have more luck looking at highlight films.

Ol' No. 2
02-01-2005, 12:19 AM
Maybe rather than focusing on one player, in which case there may not be enough footage to work with, you might try looking at individual plays. You might have more luck looking at highlight films.I was thinking of something along the same lines. How about a "passing the baton" angle, where you get film of great fielders making great catches, starting from as old as you can get through the present day. Show 4 or 5 clips, ending with someone like Aaron Rowand making a great catch. Finish with "White Sox Baseball...some things never change".

Two By Four
02-01-2005, 12:25 AM
The problem is if you're going to use film,...
No, not using film. Actually since you're curious, in this particular spot I would be using the players baseball card. And even if the card is not that good, we will just fake one. So the actual player footage is of less concern, more the whole perception and persona of the guy.

StillMissOzzie
02-01-2005, 01:39 AM
Joe was my first thought. Everyone knows him (young and old) and he was a good player. But what does everyone think about the scandal? Too tainted? My feeling is that most people believe he never cheated. Right or wrong?

While you're preaching to the choir here about Joe Jackson, I honestly feel that he suffers from guilt by association: He's the guy that didn't turn in the other cheaters, blah blah blah...

I'd cast my lot with Luis Aparicio, Aaron Rowand, or maybe....Lance Johnson? He's got some highlight reel catches, including one that saved a no-hitter, and was pretty quick on the basepaths, too.

SMO
:gulp:

hold2dibber
02-01-2005, 07:50 AM
Off the top of my head, Fox, Aparicio and/or Ventura seem the obvious choices in terms of defensive prowess and being known by the vast majority of Sox-dom. Lance Johnson also had a very good defensive rep (although he couldn't throw, his nick-name ("One Dog") came in part from the idea that he could chase down anything out there). Karkovice was a very good defensive catcher, but he surely doesn't have the panache of Fox, Aparicio or Ventura.

voodoochile
02-01-2005, 09:26 AM
rOBIN WOULD BE GOOD OR oZZY I THINK IT SHOULD BE WITHIN THE LAST 20

Aside from the caps lock issue, I completely agree with the Ozzie choice - heck it's even topical since he manages the club.

SpammySosa
02-01-2005, 09:53 AM
Off the top of my head, Fox, Aparicio and/or Ventura seem the obvious choices in terms of defensive prowess and being known by the vast majority of Sox-dom. Lance Johnson also had a very good defensive rep (although he couldn't throw, his nick-name ("One Dog") came in part from the idea that he could chase down anything out there). Karkovice was a very good defensive catcher, but he surely doesn't have the panache of Fox, Aparicio or Ventura.

I think "One-Dog" was another of Hawk's cheesy nicknames, based off of the number he wore,not his defensive prowess.

SpammySosa
02-01-2005, 09:57 AM
While you're preaching to the choir here about Joe Jackson, I honestly feel that he suffers from guilt by association: He's the guy that didn't turn in the other cheaters, blah blah blah.
SMO
:gulp:

It has been a while since I brushed up on my Black Sox history(and I suppose I could have before posting), but I thought Buck Weaver was the one who didn't turn in the other cheaters.

Soxzilla
02-01-2005, 10:03 AM
You should have Minnie knocking himself into the outfield wall after a catch, and basically knocking himself into the next generation...the next generation of white sox fielders. And have clips of some of rowands crashes overlapped with commentary, and throw in the gload bases loaded diving stab.

And finish with the Buerhle stab off EY in Texas with some catch(no pun intended)y slogan.

All while a digitized Minnie sits dazed and confused watching this team play.

...Iunno.:wink: One dog might work too...

And the Ray Durham catch you're talking about came in the 2000 ALDS. Game 1 methinks.

misty60481
02-01-2005, 10:18 AM
The Sox had a bunch of CFs during 50s and 60s who were great fielders---it started with Busby, then Landis, then Ken Berry.. All were considered outstanding as was Jim Rivera--another wild man who took crazy chances..

jackbrohamer
02-01-2005, 10:29 AM
The best single defensive play I've ever seen while at a game was Ray Durham's over-the-shoulder catch a few years ago running out into left field. (Was that opening night?)

Yup, 2000 against the then-Anaheim Angels.

BigEdWalsh
02-01-2005, 10:32 AM
The Sox had a bunch of CFs during 50s and 60s who were great fielders---it started with Busby, then Landis, then Ken Berry.. All were considered outstanding as was Jim Rivera--another wild man who took crazy chances..

Right on! And let's not forget Mike Hershberger.

Procol Harum
02-01-2005, 10:43 AM
Fox and Aparicio are your only real "name" connections it seems. However, it might be a service to the franchise and its fans to put together a spot highlighting a number of those generally "unknown" or relatively less-known outfielders--Busby, Berry, Rivera, Landis, Doby, Minoso, Hershberger--to begin restoring the eroded sense of team history that has been a long-term problem with the Sox' image. Anybody from the '30s or '40s for whom there might be some classy black and white footage available--Al Simmons?

24thStFan
02-01-2005, 10:57 AM
[QUOTE=Procol Harum]...it might be a service to the franchise and its fans to put together a spot highlighting a number of those generally "unknown" or relatively less-known outfielders--Busby, Berry, Rivera, Landis, Doby, Minoso, Hershberger--to begin restoring the eroded sense of team history that has been a long-term problem with the Sox' image.

Great suggestion. With the way things have been shaping up this off season, and with the Dodgers coming to town, it might be an especially good time to connect to the GO-GO SOX.

soxrme
02-01-2005, 11:09 AM
Fox and Aparicio are your only real "name" connections it seems. However, it might be a service to the franchise and its fans to put together a spot highlighting a number of those generally "unknown" or relatively less-known outfielders--Busby, Berry, Rivera, Landis, Doby, Minoso, Hershberger--to begin restoring the eroded sense of team history that has been a long-term problem with the Sox' image. Anybody from the '30s or '40s for whom there might be some classy black and white footage available--Al Simmons?
I like this idea. Really we were known for our great fielding shortstops and centerfielders. Appling, Carresquel, Aparicio,Ozzie. Other position players who come to mind are Fox, Weaver, Collins, Minnie, and Jungle Jim Rivera.

Hangar18
02-01-2005, 11:19 AM
How about doing some digital magic and having Shoeless Joe gunning a guy down at the plate and the catcher is Carlton Fisk?



How about Jack McDowell pitching, grounder to Fox,
who throws to Aparicio, who tosses to Frank Thomas?

Or Goose Gossage on the mound ?

Maximo
02-01-2005, 11:23 AM
All of the above-mentioned players are great choices.

However, let me offer Walt "No-Neck" Williams as a possibility. You could then format it to 'zoom horizontal expand wide screen' and keep Walt's entire physique in the picture.

PS.....45-50 years ago Jungle Jim Rivera would have been a "no-brainer".

mjharrison72
02-01-2005, 11:35 AM
Luis Aparicio and Nellie Fox were the first two that came to mind. While growing up, my dad would tell me lots of stories of watching them while he was growing up. However, they were about 50 years ago and that may be too long ago for the "average" (read: casual) fan to recognize. I don't know much about the SouthSide Hitmen or if there were any good fielders on that team (I was only 3!). I am trying to think of someone from the '83 team, but I'm drawing a blank (other than Kittle, Fisk, The Bull, but from what I read, not the type of player you are looking for.). Baines and Ozzie come to mind, but once again are associated with the current team.

What about Joe Jackson? Is that too long ago or tainted from the 1919 scandal?

So I guess it comes back to Little Louie and Nellie.
Exactly... if we're looking to make some assocaitions with the '59 team, why not show some 1959 footage of Aparicio and Fox turning DPs?

24thStFan
02-01-2005, 11:51 AM
Exactly... if we're looking to make some assocaitions with the '59 team, why not show some 1959 footage of Aparicio and Fox turning DPs?

Like this...

Lip Man 1
02-01-2005, 11:54 AM
Two By Four:

Without question it's Luis Aparicio. Sox fans being knowledgeable about their team can easily relate to the finest shortstop ever produced by a franchise that has produced many, many fine ones. The Sox have had a reputation for pitching speed and defense. Those are the hallmarks of the team, that is also the direction the club has chosen to remake itself into.

The connection is obvious and a good one.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2489

Lip

slavko
02-01-2005, 12:30 PM
Fred Manrique, Ralph Garr. Seriously, wasn't there more than a rumor that Al Lopez, his own manager, was on the veterans' committee and kept Nellie out of the HOF because Al thought he tended to waffle on the double play when a runner was bearing down on him?

BigEdWalsh
02-01-2005, 12:36 PM
[QUOTE=slavko]Fred Manrique, Ralph Garr. QUOTE]

Tsk tsk.

:tealpolice:

maurice
02-01-2005, 03:46 PM
I'd probably go with Minoso or Aparicio.

Joe Jackson was known for his bat. He took money in the 1919 scandal but (apparently) didn't change his on-field performance. Some folks might have him confused with Buck Weaver.

starboy0
02-01-2005, 03:49 PM
I belive Louie Aparacio still hold the major league record for most games played at short and the American League record for most chances, put-outs and assists.