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RowanDye
01-31-2005, 03:55 PM
Rob Neyer's List of 10 Teams That Least Helped Themselves in Offseason:

https://r.espn.go.com/espn/inc/checkSettlementState?accountId=59273640&productName=ESPNInsider&filter=&redir=http%3A%2F%2Fproxy.espn.go.com%2***b%2Fcolum ns%2Fstory%3Fid%3D1980522
....
#6) The Chicago White Sox

"It might be reasonably argued that the White Sox don't belong on this list...But that Lee for Podesednik trade just keeps eating at me, and I suspect that ONLY Iguchi, who of course is unknown to most of us, is capable of saving this winter for the Sox."


Rob Neyer's lack of professional baseball analysis never ceases to amaze me. While my gut reaction to the Lee/Podsednik trade was about the same as his, the signings that KW has made since then have filled some glaring holes. Isn't that the definition of improvement?? I just don't understand why he feels the need to be so pessimistic about the White Sox? Does he really think that Lee was worth more wins than Podesdnik, Hernandez, Pierzynski, Iguchi, Vizcaino, and Hermanson will be?? Iguchi better get off to a fast start, because I guess he's our ONLY hope!! :angry:

NSSoxFan
01-31-2005, 04:01 PM
Nobody picked us in 2000, remember that.

And BTW,
:tealpolice:

Baby Fisk
01-31-2005, 04:01 PM
Rob Neyer's List of 10 Teams That Least Helped Themselves in Offseason:

https://r.espn.go.com/espn/inc/checkSettlementState?accountId=59273640&productName=ESPNInsider&filter=&redir=http%3A%2F%2Fproxy.espn.go.com%2***b%2Fcolum ns%2Fstory%3Fid%3D1980522
....
#6) The Chicago White Sox

"It might be reasonably argued that the White Sox don't belong on this list...But that Lee for Podesednik trade just keeps eating at me, and I suspect that ONLY Iguchi, who of course is unknown to most of us, is capable of saving this winter for the Sox."


Rob Neyer's lack of professional baseball analysis never ceases to amaze me. While my gut reaction to the Lee/Podsednik trade was about the same as his, the signings that KW has made since then have filled some glaring holes. Isn't that the definition of improvement?? I just don't understand why he feels the need to be so pessimistic about the White Sox? Does he really think that Lee was worth more wins than Podesdnik, Hernandez, Pierzynski, Iguchi, Vizcaino, and Hermanson will be?? Iguchi better get off to a fast start, because I guess he's our ONLY hope!! :angry:

Four things:

1) ESPN sucks!

2) The Podsednik-Lee-etc. trade was awesome.
3) Welcome aboard! :welcome:
4) This is teal. :cool:

Chicago83
01-31-2005, 04:03 PM
I totally agree with you, what a joke. I can't read the whole article, are the cubs on it?? They had a much worse off-season than the sox.

This guy has no idea what he is talking about, I assume he just looked at Lee's stats last year and compared them to Pods.

By the way, people are going to start crying about your misuse of teal.

rdivaldi
01-31-2005, 04:05 PM
Under the radar boys, under the radar.....

1917
01-31-2005, 04:06 PM
He left Jermaine Dye and Vizciano off the list....really we are taking it in the nuts over this Lee deal. We have such a better team then we have had in years...Let them talk the talk...we will walk the walk

NSSoxFan
01-31-2005, 04:06 PM
Under the radar boys, under the radar.....

I wouldn't care if they picked us to finish in last place.

balke
01-31-2005, 04:09 PM
Other people just look at us as losers. I went to check the Cardinals Board, and they were making picks of who would win what division. Most people had us 2nd or 3rd, some 4th, and one person put us 1st.

Even we don't know how good we are yet, but Kenny will never get the credit he deserves for this offseason, because he didn't get Beltran or Delgado. It's not as easy to say that we did well, cause we didn't acquire the big name. As a matter of fact we lost the big name. Oh well, all we can do is hope to win the Division and hear about how surprising it is this team gelled.

mweflen
01-31-2005, 04:14 PM
Yes, anyone who doesn't see the 2005 club as at least marginally improved is hitting the wacky tobaccey a little too much. We will probably see a power downgrade, but I'd rather have 4 average major leaguers (Dye, Pods, Gucci, AJ) than 2 stars and 2 bums (Caballo, Or-done-yet, Pee-Yew-Pod & Little Ben). And the improvements to both the rotation and pen are undeniable. The worst you can say is we're more solid and less spectacular.

Ol' No. 2
01-31-2005, 04:15 PM
These are the same guys who picked the Royals to win the division last year.
http://www.olepetter.com/grafikk/forside/dogbert.jpg

Chisox003
01-31-2005, 04:20 PM
Who is Rob Neyer, and why is he writing for ESPN...?

I honestly think that for the biggest sports market in the world, ESPN has some of the worst analysts they can possibly dig up

The guy is clearly not a Sox fan....Clearly not a very knowledgable baseball writer.....Clearly not worth the time to read the rest of the article....

I get angry every time I read garbage like this, supposedly professional writers who are experts in their fields...I poop on their opinions

NSSoxFan
01-31-2005, 04:26 PM
Who is Rob Neyer, and why is he writing for ESPN...?

I honestly think that for the biggest sports market in the world, ESPN has some of the worst analysts they can possibly dig up

The guy is clearly not a Sox fan....Clearly not a very knowledgable baseball writer.....Clearly not worth the time to read the rest of the article....

I get angry every time I read garbage like this, supposedly professional writers who are experts in their fields...I poop on their opinions

Now that I see Rob Neyer is behind this all knowing list I just forgot I even saw an article.

balke
01-31-2005, 04:29 PM
.... as I watch 1st and 10 or is it cold pizza? with woody paige and that Annoying wiener that he debates with.

Rules for ESPN

1) Anything the Red Sox or Yankees do is all right all the time.
2) A player does not exist until he plays for a major market team (mild exceptions for Beltran who they've hyped for a long while)
3) The AL Central does not exist.
4) Peter Gammons can make up any phony trade he wants, they'll just pronounce his genius when he's right 1 out of 10 times.
5) Treat the White Sox as a joke, don't talk about the Cardinals when they have the best record in baseball, go bonkers for Kaz Matsui, but completely ignore Iguchi.

Ol' No. 2
01-31-2005, 04:35 PM
.... as I watch 1st and 10 or is it cold pizza? with woody paige and that Annoying wiener that he debates with.

Rules for ESPN

1) Anything the Red Sox or Yankees do is all right all the time.
2) A player does not exist until he plays for a major market team (mild exceptions for Beltran who they've hyped for a long while)
3) The AL Central does not exist.
4) Peter Gammons can make up any phony trade he wants, they'll just pronounce his genius when he's right 1 out of 10 times.
5) Treat the White Sox as a joke, don't talk about the Cardinals when they have the best record in baseball, go bonkers for Kaz Matsui, but completely ignore Iguchi.6) Pick whoever won the division last year to win it again. It's too much work to actually find out who's any good.
7) Rate teams based on how many big-name players they have. Actually finding out about all those other guys is too much work.

maurice
01-31-2005, 04:35 PM
The guy is clearly not a Sox fan....

Right. He's a Royals fan and a disciple of Bill James.

FWIW, the Royals also made his list (for obvious reasons).

Corlose 15
01-31-2005, 04:35 PM
Why does nobody ever mention Vizcaino or Hinton in the Lee trade? Everyone talks about how Lee for Pods is such a horrible trade, but I have not seen any analyisis on how Vizcaino or Hinton will factor in at all. Screw em I say. Let the season start and the players play.

Baby Fisk
01-31-2005, 04:36 PM
6) Pick whoever won the division last year to win it again. It's too much work to actually find out who's any good.
7) Rate teams based on how many big-name players they have. Actually finding out about all those other guys is too much work.
8) If it's about the Billy Goat curse, it leads.

SoxFan48
01-31-2005, 04:40 PM
Why is it necessary to attack Rob Neyer to make points? The guy has done more serious baseball analysis, thinking and writing than probably any participant on this board. Let's make arguments based on analysis, based on solid argument rather than personal attack.

balke
01-31-2005, 04:44 PM
Why is it necessary to attack Rob Neyer to make points? The guy has done more serious baseball analysis, thinking and writing than probably any participant on this board. Let's make arguments based on analysis, based on solid argument rather than personal attack.

RELAX ROB!!!

soxtalker
01-31-2005, 04:45 PM
Rob Neyer's List of 10 Teams That Least Helped Themselves in Offseason:

https://r.espn.go.com/espn/inc/checkSettlementState?accountId=59273640&productName=ESPNInsider&filter=&redir=http%3A%2F%2Fproxy.espn.go.com%2***b%2Fcolum ns%2Fstory%3Fid%3D1980522
....
#6) The Chicago White Sox

"It might be reasonably argued that the White Sox don't belong on this list...But that Lee for Podesednik trade just keeps eating at me, and I suspect that ONLY Iguchi, who of course is unknown to most of us, is capable of saving this winter for the Sox."


Rob Neyer's lack of professional baseball analysis never ceases to amaze me. While my gut reaction to the Lee/Podsednik trade was about the same as his, the signings that KW has made since then have filled some glaring holes. Isn't that the definition of improvement?? I just don't understand why he feels the need to be so pessimistic about the White Sox? Does he really think that Lee was worth more wins than Podesdnik, Hernandez, Pierzynski, Iguchi, Vizcaino, and Hermanson will be?? Iguchi better get off to a fast start, because I guess he's our ONLY hope!! :angry:

What's "unprofessional" about it? I personally liked the Lee trade, but it isn't at all unreasonable for someone on the outside to look at this as simply a salary dump. And as for all those other moves that KW made to fill holes, most of them are not sure bets. I, like most of us, applaud them as being pretty innovative and low risk. But I won't be surprised if KW has to do some more wheeling and dealing during the season when one or two of these don't work out.

Why is it that any negative analysis in the national media is immediately taken as a great insult and roundly criticized? These guys are looking at all the teams. Most of them can't spend the amount of time we do going over the details and implications of the Sox moves. You can always ignore them, but, quite frankly, it doesn't hurt to get the perspective of someone who isn't sitting in Chicago. The best that we can hope for is that one or two of them might bring up a point that we haven't thought of.

Iwritecode
01-31-2005, 04:48 PM
Why is it necessary to attack Rob Neyer to make points? The guy has done more serious baseball analysis, thinking and writing than probably any participant on this board. Let's make arguments based on analysis, based on solid argument rather than personal attack.

Why? Because we can.

I've seen much better analysis on this site than 95% of the garbage the professionals throw out there.

NSSoxFan
01-31-2005, 04:49 PM
Why? Because we can.

I've seen much better analysis on this site than 95% of the garbage the professionals throw out there.

Neyer is also an avid member of FOBB.

34 Inch Stick
01-31-2005, 04:50 PM
I like the Sox moves this year but you cannot just ignore some of our concerns. Let me play devil's advocate here:

Podsednik is not really a natural leadoff hitter. In 2003 he had a lot of his success hitting second. As the leadoff in 2004 he struck out over 100 times. While you would think a fast, non homer hitting outfielder would be stereotypically spectacular at fielding, Pods is not.

I have not heard one person who has seen Iguichi play regularly. He is a question mark that we are hoping can come semi close to his Japanese numbers.

Pierzinski is an All Star caliber player at a critical position in the MLB...and he is on his third team in three years.

El Duque is an old pitcher who has had injury problems.

The bullpen looks good but bullpens generally are very volatile from year to year.

Dye is injury prone and is well past his best years.

Frank is probably going to start the season on the DL.

We saw the Jekyl and Hyde ability of Contrearas last year. People have been waiting for him to be consistent since he came to the US.

Uribe and Rowand had years that exceeded commonly held opinions on their abilities.

Garland and Crede have never met expectations.

Overall this team has MANY players who can strike out over 100 times this year. The outfield D, while better, is not so much better to make up for the power that was lost. We have 2 1/2 starting pitchers that you can really rely on.

Now, I don't think it is a stretch for these holes to take care of themselves. I fully expect 87-92 wins. However to an outside media type it is easier to be skeptical.

Flight #24
01-31-2005, 04:51 PM
Why is it necessary to attack Rob Neyer to make points? The guy has done more serious baseball analysis, thinking and writing than probably any participant on this board. Let's make arguments based on analysis, based on solid argument rather than personal attack.

I don't think it's necessary (although it is fun!). Personally, I'd give it more credence if he said "I don't like the net impact of all the Sox moves". But when Rob cites the "Lee for Podsednik" trade as the source of his ranking, ignoring the additions of Vizcaino, Hermanson, Hernandez, Pierzynski, & Dye - well that seems like he didn't really take any time at all, just thought "Hey, the White Sox must be on this list, what did they do....oh, Lee for Podsednik, yeah - I knew they made bad moves"

Plus, virtually all media is ignorant of the fact that we didn't lose Maggs from last year's team because we didn't have him last year. Not to mention that he's unlikely to be the traditional "maggs" in 2005.

Iwritecode
01-31-2005, 04:53 PM
What's "unprofessional" about it? I personally liked the Lee trade, but it isn't at all unreasonable for someone on the outside to look at this as simply a salary dump. And as for all those other moves that KW made to fill holes, most of them are not sure bets. I, like most of us, applaud them as being pretty innovative and low risk. But I won't be surprised if KW has to do some more wheeling and dealing during the season when one or two of these don't work out.

Why is it that any negative analysis in the national media is immediately taken as a great insult and roundly criticized? These guys are looking at all the teams. Most of them can't spend the amount of time we do going over the details and implications of the Sox moves. You can always ignore them, but, quite frankly, it doesn't hurt to get the perspective of someone who isn't sitting in Chicago. The best that we can hope for is that one or two of them might bring up a point that we haven't thought of.

I think "professional" was desribing the level of baseball played, not his analysis...

How could this possibly be looked at as a salary dump with the payroll has actually gone up from this point last year?

These guys get paid to write this stuff. The least they could do is a little research and analysis to get a few facts and then write about it. Instead we get this kind of garbage and then wonder why a team in the 3rd largest market gets no respect...

Flight #24
01-31-2005, 04:53 PM
What's "unprofessional" about it? I personally liked the Lee trade, but it isn't at all unreasonable for someone on the outside to look at this as simply a salary dump. And as for all those other moves that KW made to fill holes, most of them are not sure bets. I, like most of us, applaud them as being pretty innovative and low risk. But I won't be surprised if KW has to do some more wheeling and dealing during the season when one or two of these don't work out.

Why is it that any negative analysis in the national media is immediately taken as a great insult and roundly criticized? These guys are looking at all the teams. Most of them can't spend the amount of time we do going over the details and implications of the Sox moves. You can always ignore them, but, quite frankly, it doesn't hurt to get the perspective of someone who isn't sitting in Chicago. The best that we can hope for is that one or two of them might bring up a point that we haven't thought of.

As "experts", who's primary job is to follow & analyze baseball, isn't it exactly their responsibiltiy to understand the full ramifications of such moves for ALL teams? I mean it's not like they have day jobs that take up their time.....

SoxFan78
01-31-2005, 04:55 PM
Rob Neyer's List of 10 Teams That Least Helped Themselves in Offseason:


#6) The Chicago White Sox

"It might be reasonably argued that the White Sox don't belong on this list...But that Lee for Podesednik trade just keeps eating at me, and I suspect that ONLY Iguchi, who of course is unknown to most of us, is capable of saving this winter for the Sox."



#6) The Chicago White Sox

"Because they are not the Chicago Cubs, Boston Red Sox or New York Yankees."

Chisox003
01-31-2005, 04:56 PM
I like the Sox moves this year but you cannot just ignore some of our concerns. Let me play devil's advocate here:

Podsednik is not really a natural leadoff hitter. In 2003 he had a lot of his success hitting second. As the leadoff in 2004 he struck out over 100 times. While you would think a fast, non homer hitting outfielder would be stereotypically spectacular at fielding, Pods is not.

I have not heard one person who has seen Iguichi play regularly. He is a question mark that we are hoping can come semi close to his Japanese numbers.

Pierzinski is an All Star caliber player at a critical position in the MLB...and he is on his third team in three years.

El Duque is an old pitcher who has had injury problems.

The bullpen looks good but bullpens generally are very volatile from year to year.

Dye is injury prone and is well past his best years.

Frank is probably going to start the season on the DL.

We saw the Jekyl and Hyde ability of Contrearas last year. People have been waiting for him to be consistent since he came to the US.

Uribe and Rowand had years that exceeded commonly held opinions on their abilities.

Garland and Crede have never met expectations.

Overall this team has MANY players who can strike out over 100 times this year. The outfield D, while better, is not so much better to make up for the power that was lost. We have 2 1/2 starting pitchers that you can really rely on.

Now, I don't think it is a stretch for these holes to take care of themselves. I fully expect 87-92 wins. However to an outside media type it is easier to be skeptical.

Good Call....Agreed 100%

Say the Sox catch lightning in a bottle and every hole is filled, no injuries, Crede Garland & Contreras live up to the hype etc.....Its a Great team.....If not, sh*t's gonna hit the fan

Ol' No. 2
01-31-2005, 05:01 PM
I like the Sox moves this year but you cannot just ignore some of our concerns. Let me play devil's advocate here:

Podsednik is not really a natural leadoff hitter. In 2003 he had a lot of his success hitting second. As the leadoff in 2004 he struck out over 100 times. While you would think a fast, non homer hitting outfielder would be stereotypically spectacular at fielding, Pods is not.

I have not heard one person who has seen Iguichi play regularly. He is a question mark that we are hoping can come semi close to his Japanese numbers.

Pierzinski is an All Star caliber player at a critical position in the MLB...and he is on his third team in three years.

El Duque is an old pitcher who has had injury problems.

The bullpen looks good but bullpens generally are very volatile from year to year.

Dye is injury prone and is well past his best years.

Frank is probably going to start the season on the DL.

We saw the Jekyl and Hyde ability of Contrearas last year. People have been waiting for him to be consistent since he came to the US.

Uribe and Rowand had years that exceeded commonly held opinions on their abilities.

Garland and Crede have never met expectations.

Overall this team has MANY players who can strike out over 100 times this year. The outfield D, while better, is not so much better to make up for the power that was lost. We have 2 1/2 starting pitchers that you can really rely on.

Now, I don't think it is a stretch for these holes to take care of themselves. I fully expect 87-92 wins. However to an outside media type it is easier to be skeptical.I could dispute a few of these, but that's really beside the point. You can make a list like this for just about every team in MLB. All teams have question marks. Even the $220M Yankees have questions.

1917
01-31-2005, 05:08 PM
I like the Sox moves this year but you cannot just ignore some of our concerns. Let me play devil's advocate here:

Podsednik is not really a natural leadoff hitter. In 2003 he had a lot of his success hitting second. As the leadoff in 2004 he struck out over 100 times. While you would think a fast, non homer hitting outfielder would be stereotypically spectacular at fielding, Pods is not.

I have not heard one person who has seen Iguichi play regularly. He is a question mark that we are hoping can come semi close to his Japanese numbers.

Pierzinski is an All Star caliber player at a critical position in the MLB...and he is on his third team in three years.

El Duque is an old pitcher who has had injury problems.

The bullpen looks good but bullpens generally are very volatile from year to year.

Dye is injury prone and is well past his best years.

Frank is probably going to start the season on the DL.

We saw the Jekyl and Hyde ability of Contrearas last year. People have been waiting for him to be consistent since he came to the US.

Uribe and Rowand had years that exceeded commonly held opinions on their abilities.

Garland and Crede have never met expectations.

Overall this team has MANY players who can strike out over 100 times this year. The outfield D, while better, is not so much better to make up for the power that was lost. We have 2 1/2 starting pitchers that you can really rely on.

Now, I don't think it is a stretch for these holes to take care of themselves. I fully expect 87-92 wins. However to an outside media type it is easier to be skeptical.

Very well said, I agree, we have a lot of "what if's" on this team and it can all backfire on us....I do diagree that Dyes better years are behind him...he is just 31...if he can stay healthy he can be great I know it...but the health factor is his What IF

Flight #24
01-31-2005, 05:15 PM
I could dispute a few of these, but that's really beside the point. You can make a list like this for just about every team in MLB. All teams have question marks. Even the $220M Yankees have questions.

Can Mussina, Brown, RJ stay healthy? Can Pavano maintain and transition to the AL? Can Bernie, Jeter, Posada stave off performance declines as they age?

As for the BoSox: Can Clement transition to the AL and become consistent? Can David Wells stay healthy? Can Wade Miller get & stay healthy? Can Millar improve on that .642 road OPS? Can Bellhorn play 2d well enough to stay on the field and can he stay healthy? Can Varitek stay healthy or will his OPS drop from a career-high .872? Is Edgar Renteria the .327OBP / .728OPS guy he was last year?

You pick the team, and they've got questions. The difference is in the # of them that they need to come through to win, and their ability to do things during the season (ie. take on salary). It's not that farfetched for the Sox to have Pods & Iguchi put up .350OBPs, have Frank for all but April, and have El Duque make 25 starts. Those things happen and this team will be at or near the top of the division.

maurice
01-31-2005, 05:18 PM
I understand that national guys might not look at every team or every trade in detail. That's fine, as long as they confine themselves to writing about things they actually DID take the time to research. For example, to rank the teams that "least helped themselves," you would (at a minimum) need to be familiar with all major offseason transactions, including Dye and Vizciano. Writing an article without first doing the research is (typically) lazy sports journalism.

Neyer has overlooked basic facts about the Sox in the past but has proven to be a stand-up guy about it. For example, he once published an uninformed comment about Buehrle's contract. When I called him on the error, he responded to my e-mail and published a retraction in his next ESPN.com article.

Jabroni
01-31-2005, 05:53 PM
http://lite.espn.go.com/mlb/columnist?id=1980522Chicago White Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=cha)

Gained: Tadahito Iguchi (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7510), A.J. Pierzynski (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6109), Orlando Hernandez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6019), Scott Podsednik (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6489)
Lost: Carlos Lee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6161)

It might reasonably be argued that the White Sox don't belong on this list, especially considering that I've left the Reds off the list. But that Lee-for-Podsednik trade just keeps eating at me, and I suspect that only Iguchi, who of course is unknown to most of us, is capable of saving this winter for the Sox.I guess Neyer forgot that we also gained Jermaine Dye, Dustin Hermanson, and Luis Vizcaino. :rolleyes:

DumpJerry
01-31-2005, 05:55 PM
Thread was already started. "ESPN: Downward Moblity?"

Jabroni
01-31-2005, 05:55 PM
Thread was already started. "ESPN: Downward Moblity?"Doh, didn't see it. Sorry mods. :(:

chaz171
01-31-2005, 06:02 PM
You'd swear that someone on this message board wrote that clip on the Sox...

http://library.thinkquest.org/18626/media/TitanicSinking2.gif

OEO Magglio
01-31-2005, 06:09 PM
I could dispute a few of these, but that's really beside the point. You can make a list like this for just about every team in MLB. All teams have question marks. Even the $220M Yankees have questions.
Bingo, you can come up with question marks for every single team in baseball, the fact of the matter is there is no hole on this club, not one.

faneidde
01-31-2005, 06:13 PM
I think the Sox had a middle of the road offseason. I don't agree the Sox had the 6th worst, but I'm not chugging the silver and black Kool-Aid like a lot of poeple around here. I think this season begins with nearly as many questions as last year. So, forgive me Nick Backay, but when the break it down:

RF: This Year: Can Dye be a healthy, productive player?
Last Year: Will Mags resign
Advantage: Last Year (big)

CF: This Year: Can Rowand duplicate his success from last year?
Last Year: Rowand, Harris, or bust?
Advantage: This Year (big)

RF: This Year: Can Scotty P get on base and bat lead off?
Last Year: Will Carlos continue to improve into an All-Star?
Advantage: Last Year (big)

3B: This Year: Will Crede ever live up to his potential?
Last Year: Will Crede ever live up to his potential?
Advantage: Last year, c'mon, how many years are we going to say this?

SS: This Year: Which Uribe shows up? The beginning of the year All-Star, the middle of the year awful player, or the end of the year solid player?
Last Year: Will Jose stop striking out so much?
Advantage: Push

2nd Base: This Year: Who is Iguchi?
Last Year: Willie Harris hitting lead-off?
Advantage: This Year

1st Base: This Year: Can Pauly repeat his performance of last year?
Last Year: Can Pauly repeat his performance of 2 years ago.
Advantage: This Year (slight)

DH: This Year: Why do we keep trading for Carl Everett?
Last Year: Are we going to trade Frank Thomas?
Advantage: Last Year (big)

Pitching Rotation: This Year: Can the Cubans get it done?
Last Year: Wow, too many to list?
Advantage: This Year (big)

Bullpen: This Year: Can Shingo duplicate his success?
Last Year: Koch can't really be that bad, can he?
Advantage: This year (big)

Giving 3 points for a big advantage, 2 points for an advantage, and 1 point for a slight advantage, in a slugfest, the advantage goes to this year's team by a 12-11 count. Until next time, I'm faniedde reminding you the numbers never lie, although sometimes they are pretty much made up by those SABR geeks.

RowanDye
01-31-2005, 06:39 PM
I wrote the post a little peeved about the lack of respect the White Sox get from ESPN (not that they really have deserve a whole lot recently), so I may have went a little too far with the "unprofessional" comment. However the main thing that got to me was how even though Rob acknowledged that "it could be reasonably argued the White sox don't belong on this list"; he still found it necessary to put the Sox rather high up on the list. I realize that these are just Neyer's opinions, but he is being paid (partially by my Insider subscription) to evaluate the MLB and I just expect him to give the same professional evaluation for EVERY team. It didn't even look like he honestly evaluated their offeseason moves. To me his comments hint at some underlieing bias against the Sox (or maybe just the KW/JR), and at the very least an "unprofessional" lack of serious baseball analysis across the board. Reading about the other teams at least gave me some informative details about the positives/negatives of their offseason moves. All I got from his take on the White Sox was that some feeling from the Lee/Podesednik trade is "eating" him enough to make him ignore the other moves and rate the Sox as having one of the worst offseasons. IMHO that analysis is not very professional, I might not know half as much as Neyer about baseball, but I could have wrote the same analysis the day after the Lee/Podesednik trade without putting anymore thought into the matter! (Oh yea, I guess he did make me realize Iguchi WILL make or break our offseason ) Please!

FightingBillini
01-31-2005, 07:21 PM
Podsednik is not really a natural leadoff hitter. In 2003 he had a lot of his success hitting second. As the leadoff in 2004 he struck out over 100 times. While you would think a fast, non homer hitting outfielder would be stereotypically spectacular at fielding, Pods is not.

Have you seen him play outfield, or is that just you jumping on the Daver bandwagon? I dont know that he is a spectacular fielder, but he certainly isnt bad. This is a fallacy started by a few people on this board who probably read that he "isn't the greatest in CF". He isnt a defensive liability, and he will be a huge upgrade over Lee in left. He admitted that he was playing the wrong way last year, and trying to do all the wrong things (like hitting HRs). Also, hitters generally improve a good amount going from the AL to NL.

Pierzinski is an All Star caliber player at a critical position in the MLB...and he is on his third team in three years.

And why is that? Because he is past his prime? No. He was on a team with a lot of pricks. He rubbed a few pitchers the wrong way, and was shipped out of town because of it. You are forgetting Minnesota only traded him because 1) They already have "the next Johnny Bench" Joe Mauer ready at the big league level, and 2) They got a top closer for him. SF only got rid of him because they have a very Dusty-esque manager who lets the inmates run the assylum. Ozzie wont put up with crap on his team. Nobody will get out of line, and he wont soothe the egos of his team like Alou did to some many players on his team.

Dye is injury prone and is well past his best years.
That is the biggest load of BS. I dont understand why people on this board keep on passing this garbage off as truth, but its not. Dye is not injury prone. He had 2 unrelated freak injuries. He broke his leg in the 2001 playoffs, and it took him a long time to get back into form. He had a bad year in 02. 03 was bad for him, and it got worse with a serious shoulder injury. His production picked up in 04, but he still wasnt at 100%, which he apparently is now. If you are contesting that 2 injuries make on "prone" to injuries, or that a broken leg and a f'ed up shoulder are somehow related, then I dont follow. When he is healthy, he produces. He hits, and he is a gold glover. I dont know how you can say he is "well past his best years" when the last three years have been played suffering from those freak injuries. If Dye is healthy, and he is, he will be good. Also, we have Everett, who is in shape and in a contract year. He hits for average and power, and he is a switch hitter. We are fine in right.

Uribe and Rowand had years that exceeded commonly held opinions on their abilities.
Whenever Rowand was healthy and played, he produced. He was healthy all year, and he produced. Uribe is great defensively. Some scouts have compared him to a young Tejada. He a horrible June and July (when everyon sucked), but was great the rest of the year. That might be due to fatigue for a young player who hasnt played that much before. He picked it up at the end of the season. He has improved substantially in every major league season he played. Whose' expectations are he exceeding?


Garland and Crede have never met expectations.

I never thought I would say this, but does it matter? Crede will be hitting 9th this year. He is solid defensively. If you believe the we HAVE to have a .300 hitter batting last to win, you are wrong. Aside from that, how many teams have a #9 hitter with 21 HR and 69 RBI?
Garland is a very good pitcher, who gets hurt by the big inning. He has been around .500 his career, but he finished above it last year. If our fifth best starter wins more games than he loses, we will be fine. Besides, it is more than likely both improve on last year.

Every team has questions. We dont have more than that many others.

chisoxmike
01-31-2005, 07:25 PM
A lot of things have to go right for this team to win.

1) Dye, "El Duque", Everett, and Thomas, hell the whole team needs to be healthy during the whole season.

2) The pitching staff needs to pitch as they are expected to.

3) Can Rowand, Uribe come off a strong year and follow it up? Can Konerko keep putting two halfs together?

4) Iguhi HAS NEVER HIT A MAJOR LEAUGE PITCHER!

5) Can the team put two halfs together?ie, 2nd half 2003, 1st half of 2004

With all that said, I still think this team can win in the upper 80 to low 90 win column.

This team could really suck and finish in 4th place, or be really in a force in the AL and finally make it to the playoffs. Or just settle again for 2nd.

soxtalker
01-31-2005, 07:33 PM
I understand that national guys might not look at every team or every trade in detail. That's fine, as long as they confine themselves to writing about things they actually DID take the time to research. For example, to rank the teams that "least helped themselves," you would (at a minimum) need to be familiar with all major offseason transactions, including Dye and Vizciano. Writing an article without first doing the research is (typically) lazy sports journalism.

Neyer has overlooked basic facts about the Sox in the past but has proven to be a stand-up guy about it. For example, he once published an uninformed comment about Buehrle's contract. When I called him on the error, he responded to my e-mail and published a retraction in his next ESPN.com article.

I'd guess that the fans of several of the other teams on this list will have similar reactions to the article. And a number of fans will probably send Neyer detailed comments as to why his analysis fell short. I wonder if he'll respond and then use some of that info in his future columns?

zach074
01-31-2005, 07:45 PM
I think this guy needs to but down the bong.

PAPChiSox729
01-31-2005, 08:15 PM
I agree this is BS. But I could see, knowing the White Sox don't get any national attention, why we had such a bad offseason. We didn't add any marquee FA's, just position players that were needed to fill holes. CLee came off of a very good year, so we traded him for a CF with a sub-par average and OBP and an unknown in the bullpen. But, I think that we have had a very good offseason. Just ignore the national media, they have no idea what is going on outside of Boston and New York.

MRKARNO
01-31-2005, 08:33 PM
This is just Neyer's anti-Sox bias showing through because any reasonable statistics will show that this is a good trade. The projected VORP (which I realize many here object to, but just play along with the idea that he's speaking out against his own system inadvertantly) of the players in question (we'll use Polanco's projected VORP for Iguchi because that's probably the best guess of what his mean production would be) is 116.9, while of the ones we lost it is 86.5, an increase of 30.4 which is about equal to the projected VORP of a pretty solid hitter. In the Lee trade alone we gave up 25.7 in projected VORP and received 27.7 in return, actually an increase. Neyer clearly needs to look at all of the White Sox moves again and realize the improvement from the 5th starter conundrum last year to El Duque this year, the problem in right last year to where we are this year and the catcher fiasco last year compared to AJ this year. Sorry Rob, but this was a case of a poorly researched opinion.

OurBitchinMinny
01-31-2005, 09:01 PM
Nobody picked us in 2000, remember that.

And BTW,
:tealpolice:


How many people picked us 2001-2004 though and we repeatedly pissed down the side of our leg. Im done picking this team till they show it on the field.

zach074
01-31-2005, 09:03 PM
You'd swear that someone on this message board wrote that clip on the Sox...



I haven't seen Hangar around lately.:?:

faneidde
01-31-2005, 10:34 PM
How many people picked us 2001-2004 though and we repeatedly pissed down the side of our leg. Im done picking this team till they show it on the field.
Be careful, some people won't accept that anything other than blind optimism about the team's chances. We lost two all-star caliber players and added zero. Best offseason in the league, bar none. How could anyone not agree.

Jabroni
01-31-2005, 10:42 PM
Be careful, some people won't accept that anything other than blind optimism about the team's chances. We lost two all-star caliber players and added zero. Best offseason in the league, bar none. How could anyone not agree.We added "zero"?

Jermaine Dye: 2000 All-Star & Gold-Glover

Tadahito Iguchi: 4-time Japanese All-Star, 3-time Japanese Gold-Glover, 2-time Japanese Stolen Base Leader

Scott Podsednik: 2003 N.L. Rookie of the Year runner-up

HebrewHammer
01-31-2005, 10:59 PM
:whocares
Can't believe this hasn't been posted yet.

Rob Moron of the Eastern Sports Network claims the Sox had a bad off season, yet he fails to list almost HALF of the moves KW made. What a responsible journalist.

SoxSpeed22
01-31-2005, 11:10 PM
Rob Neyer's List of 10 Teams That Least Helped Themselves in Offseason:

https://r.espn.go.com/espn/inc/checkSettlementState?accountId=59273640&productName=ESPNInsider&filter=&redir=http%3A%2F%2Fproxy.espn.go.com%2***b%2Fcolum ns%2Fstory%3Fid%3D1980522
....
#6) The Chicago White Sox

"It might be reasonably argued that the White Sox don't belong on this list...But that Lee for Podesednik trade just keeps eating at me, and I suspect that ONLY Iguchi, who of course is unknown to most of us, is capable of saving this winter for the Sox."
Last year we definitely belonged on this list, but this year, I've got to believe we did a lot better than some other teams. (Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, A's, Rocks, Royals, Astros, Pirates, D-Rays, Padres...) This is why I like MLB.com, it covers stuff that "Red Sox-Yankees News Network" (RSYNN) won't cover.

FightingBillini
01-31-2005, 11:12 PM
Be careful, some people won't accept that anything other than blind optimism about the team's chances. We lost two all-star caliber players and added zero. Best offseason in the league, bar none. How could anyone not agree.

Don't let facts get in the way of you making a point. We added an all-star second baseman. He may have never played in the majors before, but all the scouts here and abroad have said that he is considerably better than Kaz Matsui (he did good last year, he was only seen as a flop because of the money he made). Podsednik was the runner up for ROY in 2003. His defense will be better than Lee's. He wont hit as many homeruns as Lee, but he will be just as valuable to the team. With his new hitting philosophy, and changing leagues, I see no reason why he can't hit .290. We also added Dye, who is healthy. In the past when he was healthy, he put up huge numbers. Oh, and he is a gold glover. We did not lose an "all-star caliber player" in Maggs. We lost a FORMER AS caliber player. We lost a guy who played in 52 games and hit 9 HR with 37 RBIs. Most likely Maggs will never play at the same level. Even if he does, he wont in 2005. Even if Dye hits .250 over 150 games, he will have given more to the Sox than Maggs would have.

We also added an all star catcher, two very good relievers, and a #3 starter to replace our fifth starter. So yeah, I guess we added zero.

FarWestChicago
01-31-2005, 11:19 PM
We lost two all-star caliber players and added zero. Oh great, another FOLIP. Get in line, buddy. Homefish and Killa make you look like a total wimp. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

FightingBillini
01-31-2005, 11:20 PM
Last year we definitely belonged on this list, but this year, I've got to believe we did a lot better than some other teams.

Some other teams? There is NO team that had a more complete offseason than the Sox. The moron on ESPN ranked the Mariners as the 2nd best offseason and the Mets as the best. ***?! The Mariners added 2 players. Injury riddled Richie Sexson, and Adrian Beltre coming off a career year. Even if both of those guys have career years, that team is going nowhere. As for the Mets, they are still bad. Beltran may end up being the greatest player of this generation, but the rest of the team blows. The Mets have a lot of holes remaining. The White Sox' only holes are utility infieler and lefty long reliever. How can that jackass say ANYONE had a better offseason than us? Not that it matters though. This team is exponentially better than last year, and made more strides than anyone in the offseason. The sneering media asses can print what they want, but this team is better than they think. However, if the Sox don't win it all this year, the improvements wont make a bit of difference.

Jjav829
02-01-2005, 08:35 AM
Some other teams? There is NO team that had a more complete offseason than the Sox. The moron on ESPN ranked the Mariners as the 2nd best offseason and the Mets as the best. ***?! The Mariners added 2 players. Injury riddled Richie Sexson, and Adrian Beltre coming off a career year. Even if both of those guys have career years, that team is going nowhere. As for the Mets, they are still bad. Beltran may end up being the greatest player of this generation, but the rest of the team blows. The Mets have a lot of holes remaining. The White Sox' only holes are utility infieler and lefty long reliever. How can that jackass say ANYONE had a better offseason than us? Not that it matters though. This team is exponentially better than last year, and made more strides than anyone in the offseason. The sneering media asses can print what they want, but this team is better than they think. However, if the Sox don't win it all this year, the improvements wont make a bit of difference.

The ESPN rankings came from GMs, assistant GMs, and scouts. Rip the media all you want, but other GMs and scouts don't think the Sox offseason has been very good. What that means, I don't know. Hopefully it means nothing other than KW has quietly put together a good team. But it's worth noting that these are KW's peers saying that he hasn't done a very good job, not just the media.

Hopefully the ESPN poll included the likes of Chuck LaMar and Omar Minaya and NOT John Schuerholz, Walt Jocketty, and Larry Beinfest, etc.

faneidde
02-01-2005, 11:10 AM
We added "zero"?

Jermaine Dye: 2000 All-Star & Gold-Glover

Tadahito Iguchi: 4-time Japanese All-Star, 3-time Japanese Gold-Glover, 2-time Japanese Stolen Base Leader

Scott Podsednik: 2003 N.L. Rookie of the Year runner-up

Are you suggesting Dye and Podsednik are all-star caliber players, that is what I said in my post. Right now, neither of those two guys are. Last year, both C Lee and Mags had those type of years.
Also, to everyone saying Iguchi is an all-star caliber player, maybe we should let him play a game in the majors before we anoint him.
Finally, I do not think the Sox had a terrible offseason as declared by this article, I just don't think it was as great as many of you do.

JRIG
02-01-2005, 11:15 AM
Are you suggesting Dye and Podsednik are all-star caliber players, that is what I said in my post. Right now, neither of those two guys are. Last year, both C Lee and Mags had those type of years.
Also, to everyone saying Iguchi is an all-star caliber player, maybe we should let him play a game in the majors before we anoint him.
Finally, I do not think the Sox had a terrible offseason as declared by this article, I just don't think it was as great as many of you do.

My take on the offseason is pretty simple: this is now KW's team. His mold, his players. If they succeed, I will give him credit. If not, I think it's more than fair he finally takes the blame.

Point being I don't necessarily agree with his philosophy. I'm not sure how well it will work in U.S. Cellular. I'm sure many will agree with me, like Neyer, and many, like Jayson Stark, probably think it's absolutely the right way to go.

Just because a writer disagrees with you doesn't mean he has no baseball knowledge.

rdivaldi
02-01-2005, 11:36 AM
Are you suggesting Dye and Podsednik are all-star caliber players, that is what I said in my post. Right now, neither of those two guys are. Last year, both C Lee and Mags had those type of years.

Maggs had an all-star caliber year last year? :?:

Iwritecode
02-01-2005, 12:06 PM
Maggs had an all-star caliber year last year? :?:

Hey, quit using logic. That ruins his arguement!



Be careful, some people won't accept that anything other than blind optimism about the team's chances. We lost two all-star caliber players and added zero. Best offseason in the league, bar none. How could anyone not agree.

If we judge a team by the number of all-stars they have on the team then the Cubs should have won the WS last year...

34 Inch Stick
02-01-2005, 12:08 PM
Have you seen him play outfield, or is that just you jumping on the Daver bandwagon? I dont know that he is a spectacular fielder, but he certainly isnt bad. This is a fallacy started by a few people on this board who probably read that he "isn't the greatest in CF". He isnt a defensive liability, and he will be a huge upgrade over Lee in left. He admitted that he was playing the wrong way last year, and trying to do all the wrong things (like hitting HRs). Also, hitters generally improve a good amount going from the AL to NL.

Glad you asked because yes I have. I probably watch 15-20 Brewer games per year and attend 1 or 2. In addition I consider the opinions of astute observers of the game such as Daver. I also consider scouting opinions that have been posted here. You are damning him with faint praise by saying he will be better than Lee. A player with his skill set should be incredibly better than Lee in the field. I am hoping for 2003 but you cannot ignore 2004.


And why is that? Because he is past his prime? No. He was on a team with a lot of pricks. He rubbed a few pitchers the wrong way, and was shipped out of town because of it. You are forgetting Minnesota only traded him because 1) They already have "the next Johnny Bench" Joe Mauer ready at the big league level, and 2) They got a top closer for him. SF only got rid of him because they have a very Dusty-esque manager who lets the inmates run the assylum. Ozzie wont put up with crap on his team. Nobody will get out of line, and he wont soothe the egos of his team like Alou did to some many players on his team.

That is why I left it as a simple statement. A valuable player at a critical position was traded for Nathan (who by the way was not even a closer when he was acquired, he was a middle reliever) and outright released in a very short period of time. It may not make you scratch your head but it certainly made the rest of the baseball world as he sat for a long time without a contract. In addition, Ozzie is a second year manager, who proved nothing last year.


That is the biggest load of BS. I dont understand why people on this board keep on passing this garbage off as truth, but its not. Dye is not injury prone. He had 2 unrelated freak injuries. He broke his leg in the 2001 playoffs, and it took him a long time to get back into form. He had a bad year in 02. 03 was bad for him, and it got worse with a serious shoulder injury. His production picked up in 04, but he still wasnt at 100%, which he apparently is now. If you are contesting that 2 injuries make on "prone" to injuries, or that a broken leg and a f'ed up shoulder are somehow related, then I dont follow. When he is healthy, he produces. He hits, and he is a gold glover. I dont know how you can say he is "well past his best years" when the last three years have been played suffering from those freak injuries. If Dye is healthy, and he is, he will be good. Also, we have Everett, who is in shape and in a contract year. He hits for average and power, and he is a switch hitter. We are fine in right.

I get it he has had his production greatly diminshed in the last 3 plus years because of two injuries but he is not injury prone.

Whenever Rowand was healthy and played, he produced. He was healthy all year, and he produced. Uribe is great defensively. Some scouts have compared him to a young Tejada. He a horrible June and July (when everyon sucked), but was great the rest of the year. That might be due to fatigue for a young player who hasnt played that much before. He picked it up at the end of the season. He has improved substantially in every major league season he played. Whose' expectations are he exceeding?

He probably exceeded Colorado's as they traded a young, inexpensive veteran shortstop for a 26 year old minor league second baseman. He probably also exceeded KW expectations as he was penciled in as the back up to Willie Harris at the beginning of the year. I don't think the rest of the league thought enough about him to have any expectations.


I never thought I would say this, but does it matter? Crede will be hitting 9th this year. He is solid defensively. If you believe the we HAVE to have a .300 hitter batting last to win, you are wrong. Aside from that, how many teams have a #9 hitter with 21 HR and 69 RBI?
Garland is a very good pitcher, who gets hurt by the big inning. He has been around .500 his career, but he finished above it last year. If our fifth best starter wins more games than he loses, we will be fine. Besides, it is more than likely both improve on last year.

Yes it does, when taken in the context of the entire team. I firmly believe Garland needs to be our #3 (in quality if not in starts) for this team to win the division. You say both will improve and I agree. However, that is more an act of faith on our part than something that could be statistically expected.

Every team has questions. We dont have more than that many others.


We don't have more than the general field of teams that may or may not make the playoffs. We have a lot more than teams with a real expectation to win the World Series.

34 Inch Stick
02-01-2005, 12:09 PM
Sorry for screwing up the quotes section.

maurice
02-01-2005, 03:18 PM
I'd guess that the fans of several of the other teams on this list will have similar reactions to the article.

Maybe, but some of the descriptions are overly generous. For example, while pointing out the obvious (the cubs have had a crappy offseason), Neyer gives them credit for "gain[ing]" Garciapara, Walker, and Barrett, while failing to mention that they lost Clement, et al. He must be channeling this guy . . .
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2003-01/6187285.jpg
"I can't speak for Tribune Co. employees and stockholders, but if I had seen a cash register go ka-ching $119 million worth for Beltran, on top of $35 million or so more due Sosa, plus all the piles of dough owed to Greg Maddux, Nomar Garciaparra, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, etc., I might have said, whoa, there goes next year's Christmas bonus."

:?:

AZChiSoxFan
02-01-2005, 03:52 PM
We lost two all-star caliber players and added zero.

You're counting Maggs as one of the two A/S caliber players lost? Yes, those 9 homers and 37 RBI he had last year will be tough to replace.

AZChiSoxFan
02-01-2005, 03:55 PM
I wrote the post a little peeved about the lack of respect the White Sox get from ESPN (not that they really have deserve a whole lot recently), so I may have went a little too far with the "unprofessional" comment. However the main thing that got to me was how even though Rob acknowledged that "it could be reasonably argued the White sox don't belong on this list"; he still found it necessary to put the Sox rather high up on the list. I realize that these are just Neyer's opinions, but he is being paid (partially by my Insider subscription) to evaluate the MLB and I just expect him to give the same professional evaluation for EVERY team. It didn't even look like he honestly evaluated their offeseason moves. To me his comments hint at some underlieing bias against the Sox (or maybe just the KW/JR), and at the very least an "unprofessional" lack of serious baseball analysis across the board. Reading about the other teams at least gave me some informative details about the positives/negatives of their offseason moves. All I got from his take on the White Sox was that some feeling from the Lee/Podesednik trade is "eating" him enough to make him ignore the other moves and rate the Sox as having one of the worst offseasons. IMHO that analysis is not very professional, I might not know half as much as Neyer about baseball, but I could have wrote the same analysis the day after the Lee/Podesednik trade without putting anymore thought into the matter! (Oh yea, I guess he did make me realize Iguchi WILL make or break our offseason ) Please!

:tealpolice:

spawn
02-01-2005, 05:01 PM
I don't know if this was posted anywhere or not.
All I can say is, wow. No respect.


"It might reasonably argued that the White Sox don't belong on this list, especially considering I've left the Reds off the list. But that Lee-for-Posednik trade just keeps eating me, and I suspect that only Iguchi, who of course is unknown to most of us, is capable of saving this winter for the Sox."- Rob Neyer

http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1980522


I guess he forgot about Vizcaino, who also came over on the trade, and the pickup of Dustin Hermanson as well. Well, at least the Cubs made the list as well. The Sox are just gonna have to prove everyone wrong.:cool:

darklord23
02-01-2005, 05:21 PM
the white sox dont belong on that list we have made some very big moves this off season

ChiWhiteSox1337
02-01-2005, 05:46 PM
the white sox dont belong on that list we have made some very big moves this off season
The guy didn't even mention Jermaine Dye, what a dope.

Over By There
02-01-2005, 05:47 PM
There's a fairly lengthy discussion of this article in What's The Score. Linky:

ESPN: Downward Mobility? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=44793)

jackbrohamer
02-01-2005, 06:21 PM
Rob Neyer's worthless.

HoustonAstros967
02-01-2005, 08:51 PM
The Sox corrected some major problems that they had in 2004. They fixed up their pitching rotation and now actually have a capable fifth starter. They brought in a lot of speed and are now a better baserunning team. Tho they did loose some offense (maggs, and carlos) they still have run support. Frank, Rowand, and Konerko are gonna be big factors this season. If they can preform well the sox could take their division by storm and prove ESPN wrong!

WhiteSoxFan84
02-02-2005, 02:47 AM
I love this. Keep under-estimating the sleeping giant. :smokin: