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View Full Version : Peapod v. Gooch/fans/media


balke
01-30-2005, 09:37 PM
Thinking in my car today about how quickly Willie is turning into some kind of enemy. The guy has so much range he ran into our RF for goodness sakes. He played banged up all season, and has been a pretty innocent guy so far. He doesn't steal to his speed, but he still steals about 20, banged up.

SO? How many people are dropping the axe? I'm not ready to buy into Chicago media's take on Willie. I want to see Willie come out fired up, and keep his job. What do you think and why?

slavko
01-31-2005, 11:06 AM
As I've stated before in many other threads, usually followed by the ridicule of other posters, Willie is getting the same runaround Rowand got until necessity forced them to play him and he turned out to be their best player. I wish Gooch no harm, but Wille is gonna be a player for someone and I hope it's us.

mweflen
01-31-2005, 11:36 AM
The reason Willie gets so much grief is because of his attitude, pure and simple.

Guys who hit .181 against lefties do not deserve 300 ABs, let alone 400. Yet he complains about consistency of at-bats. As has been conclusively demonstrated, his average did not decline immediately after his injury, but only began to dip 2 weeks later. And for someone who we repeatedly hear is faster than Oprah chasing a baked ham, he is clueless on the basepaths.

So maybe it's a combo of attitude on his part, and over-hype on the parts of Hawk (especially) and KW (to a lesser extent).

Either way, I'm glad he has a new spot riding the pine. As far as being interested in his future, he can call me 1. when he learns how to steal bases, making him a valuable platoon or bench player, or 2. When his average against lefties limps above the Mendoza line.

nccwsfan
01-31-2005, 11:46 AM
I say keep both of them around, but offer Willie up for trade as the season goes along. No need to trade Iguchi.

voodoochile
01-31-2005, 11:48 AM
Well, I don't much care for the choices in the poll. I don't hate Willie, but think Iguchi is the better player so I want Iguchi to start and play his way out of a job before Willie is given another chance.

I don't mind trading Willie immediately if the right deal comes along - like a package for more pitching.

The amount of SB they have at mid-season is irrelevant to me in terms of who gets traded mid-season if they both make the team. Okay, not irrelevant, but way down the list of things I would judge them on. All offensive and defensive abilities being the same, it would be the tie breaker, but I don't see that happening. Iguchi should bring more patience, more ability against LHP and WAY more power. If those things don't happen, then Willie can have another shot.

Still, I don't hate Willie and am not keen on running him out of town on a rail - or "stringing him up". I just would prefer to give Iguchi his shot.

Iwritecode
01-31-2005, 11:49 AM
The reason Willie gets so much grief is because of his attitude, pure and simple.

Guys who hit .181 against lefties do not deserve 300 ABs, let alone 400. Yet he complains about consistency of at-bats. As has been conclusively demonstrated, his average did not decline immediately after his injury, but only began to dip 2 weeks later. And for someone who we repeatedly hear is faster than Oprah chasing a baked ham, he is clueless on the basepaths.

So maybe it's a combo of attitude on his part, and over-hype on the parts of Hawk (especially) and KW (to a lesser extent).

Either way, I'm glad he has a new spot riding the pine. As far as being interested in his future, he can call me 1. when he learns how to steal bases, making him a valuable platoon or bench player, or 2. When his average against lefties climps above the Mendoza line.

ditto :smile:

WhiteSoxFan84
01-31-2005, 01:02 PM
Thinking in my car today about how quickly Willie is turning into some kind of enemy. The guy has so much range he ran into our RF for goodness sakes. He played banged up all season, and has been a pretty innocent guy so far. He doesn't steal to his speed, but he still steals about 20, banged up.

SO? How many people are dropping the axe? I'm not ready to buy into Chicago media's take on Willie. I want to see Willie come out fired up, and keep his job. What do you think and why?

I still haven't decided whether I should thank Willie for hustling on that play and injuring Maggli-Who or if I should blame him for being out of place and injuring our best player, essentially ending our season.

What I do know is this; comparing Rowand to Willie is a mistake. When you look at Rowand's at-bats, from his his first at-bat to the last one he had in 2004, you get a sense and a feeling that you're watching a pro who is confident and deserves to be where he is. Willie doesn't give you that feeling, he's too much of a free swinger and isn't so amazing on defense either. On the basepaths he is puzzling. He has great spead but horrible base stealing instincts.

dcb33
01-31-2005, 01:32 PM
I still haven't decided whether I should thank Willie for hustling on that play and injuring Maggli-Who or if I should blame him for being out of place and injuring our best player, essentially ending our season.



Isn't the outfielder supposed to call off the infielder in situations like that play? IIRC, Magglio did nothing of the sort.

mcfish
01-31-2005, 02:19 PM
he's too much of a free swinger and isn't so amazing on defense either.Are you sure you aren't talking about Crash? Search the Sox Clubhouse for FOC and go back to posts from last offseason. You'll find that while there were more supporters for Aaron than there are for Willie, the people were saying many of the same things about him as they are about Willie now.

"He also does not walk at the plate or work the count very well. For a guy who's high end is .275, an OBP of .310 for Rowand would be an incredible reach at this point."

"Rowand's defense is below average for a MLB CF'er."

"Rowand is a fine 4th OF, but we deserve better for our starting 3."

This is not to say that Willie will be as good as Rowand was this year or anything like that at all. I'm just trying to show that comparing the things being said about Willie to things being said about Rowand last year is not that far off.

balke
01-31-2005, 02:34 PM
I hope Gooch gets his shot too, but I'd love to see a real fight at 2B more. I have nothing against willie. He's younger, hasn't had a real shot to swing himself on base imo, and he already has more MLB experience.

I want Gooch to be a stud, but I want Willie to break-out. When Iguchi was Harris' age, he was having a break-out season in Japan.

Willie split time at 2nd, and stole about 20 bases. I think that's about all we should expect out of Iguchi. The Gooch will hit more HR, but probably not much more than 10.

So yeah, I might be supporting Willie too much, but it would be a great story if both those guys could be valuable second basemen for the White Sox. Tadahito looks to be the better out of the 2 at this point, but I feel Willie has more potential. (This w/o seeing gooch play)

voodoochile
01-31-2005, 02:43 PM
Are you sure you aren't talking about Crash? Search the Sox Clubhouse for FOC and go back to posts from last offseason. You'll find that while there were more supporters for Aaron than there are for Willie, the people were saying many of the same things about him as they are about Willie now.

"He also does not walk at the plate or work the count very well. For a guy who's high end is .275, an OBP of .310 for Rowand would be an incredible reach at this point."

"Rowand's defense is below average for a MLB CF'er."

"Rowand is a fine 4th OF, but we deserve better for our starting 3."

This is not to say that Willie will be as good as Rowand was this year or anything like that at all. I'm just trying to show that comparing the things being said about Willie to things being said about Rowand last year is not that far off.

You know people used to argue that Garland's early career numbers weren't any different than several AS pitchers. The argument didn't make sense then and it doesn't make sense now. Just because one player makes a dramatic leap, doesn't mean a different player will. Just because posters were wrong about Rowand doesn't mean they are wrong about Harris.

Prove that Harris can make this leap not that a different player did.

mcfish
01-31-2005, 03:28 PM
You know people used to argue that Garland's early career numbers weren't any different than several AS pitchers. The argument didn't make sense then and it doesn't make sense now. Just because one player makes a dramatic leap, doesn't mean a different player will. Just because posters were wrong about Rowand doesn't mean they are wrong about Harris.

Prove that Harris can make this leap not that a different player did.It doesn't mean they are right about Harris either. I don't think that Harris will turn into Rowand. I also don't think it impossible that he could turn out to be a good player. However, I was just trying to point out that the comparison of what posters are saying about Willie this year to what was said about Rowand last year is not as far off as some would think.

Ol' No. 2
01-31-2005, 03:33 PM
You know people used to argue that Garland's early career numbers weren't any different than several AS pitchers. The argument didn't make sense then and it doesn't make sense now. Just because one player makes a dramatic leap, doesn't mean a different player will. Just because posters were wrong about Rowand doesn't mean they are wrong about Harris.

Prove that Harris can make this leap not that a different player did.To hear people talk about Harris you'd think he hit .190, made 10 errors and got picked off half a dozen times. Certainly .262/.343 and 19 SB isn't what we'd like to see, but it doesn't call for a 1-way ticket to double-A, either. You can never prove that a player can make the leap. All you can do is give him a chance and see what he does. And one full year does not qualify as giving him a chance. There are HOF players who took longer than that to develop.

That said, it doesn't look like that chance is going to come with the Sox. They've obviously decided they don't want to wait any longer, so it looks like Willie is trade bait.

34 Inch Stick
01-31-2005, 04:30 PM
I'm not exactly a FOW but I was looking forward to him getting a shot this year. Levine said the Sox were expecting numbers from Iguichi (.280, 25 steals, 10 HRs) that I think Willie could match this year (not HRs).

The whole discussion is premature as many Japanese players need time to adjust at the MLB level. While the Sox are going to give Iguichi every shot to start, I have a feeling Willie will outplay him this spring.

Ultimately, the best thing Willie could do for his career is learn how to play all three outfield positions as well as 2B. There are a lot of at bats for a speedy utility man who can give half the team a rest.

voodoochile
01-31-2005, 05:10 PM
To hear people talk about Harris you'd think he hit .190, made 10 errors and got picked off half a dozen times. Certainly .262/.343 and 19 SB isn't what we'd like to see, but it doesn't call for a 1-way ticket to double-A, either. You can never prove that a player can make the leap. All you can do is give him a chance and see what he does. And one full year does not qualify as giving him a chance. There are HOF players who took longer than that to develop.

That said, it doesn't look like that chance is going to come with the Sox. They've obviously decided they don't want to wait any longer, so it looks like Willie is trade bait.

In selective at bats against almost entirely RHP. Who cares if some of the posters are taking it to an exteme. This guy isn't worth defending this much. He's at best a platoon player. He plays one position. He has great speed, but can't steal bases.

All this crying and moaning and gnashing of the teeth about a guy who currently is slated to be the 23-25 man on the bench is silly.

Wake me when ST gets here...

Jabroni
01-31-2005, 05:16 PM
Ultimately, the best thing Willie could do for his career is learn how to play all three outfield positions as well as 2B. There are a lot of at bats for a speedy utility man who can give half the team a rest.Willie doesn't have the arm strength to play all three outfield positions. He barely has the arm strength to play 2nd base.

Ol' No. 2
01-31-2005, 05:58 PM
In selective at bats against almost entirely RHP. Who cares if some of the posters are taking it to an exteme. This guy isn't worth defending this much. He's at best a platoon player. He plays one position. He has great speed, but can't steal bases.

All this crying and moaning and gnashing of the teeth about a guy who currently is slated to be the 23-25 man on the bench is silly.

Wake me when ST gets here...What I don't understand is the attitude that last year was the top end and that he isn't likely to get any better. Why is it so unlikely that he'll improve his hitting against LHP? Why is it that he can't learn the art of base stealing? Is it so unlikely that he can add 10-20 pts to his OBP? Wouldn't that make him more than a platoon player? If he had 6 years behind him, I'd agree, but he's had just one full year.

I agree that it's probably moot. They didn't sign Iguchi for $5M to watch Willie play.

bafiarocks03
01-31-2005, 06:10 PM
OH come on..what kind of poll is this! Of course we want Willie around! We shouldn't have ever gotten Iguchi!!!

DaleJRFan
01-31-2005, 06:11 PM
OH come on..what kind of poll is this! Of course we want Willie around! We shouldn't have ever gotten Iguchi!!!

ummmm... shouldn't this be in teal?

Shingotime!!
01-31-2005, 06:20 PM
I believe the phrase is "i couldnt care less." if u could care less that means that u do care. :wink:

balke
01-31-2005, 06:23 PM
I believe the phrase is "i couldnt care less." if u could care less that means that u do care. :wink:

I thought the phrase was "pompous". :rolleyes:

voodoochile
01-31-2005, 06:39 PM
What I don't understand is the attitude that last year was the top end and that he isn't likely to get any better. Why is it so unlikely that he'll improve his hitting against LHP? Why is it that he can't learn the art of base stealing? Is it so unlikely that he can add 10-20 pts to his OBP? Wouldn't that make him more than a platoon player? If he had 6 years behind him, I'd agree, but he's had just one full year.

I agree that it's probably moot. They didn't sign Iguchi for $5M to watch Willie play.

he's going to have to make a major stride against LHA just to be considered "marginal" at this point. He may be capable of it. He may not.

Even if he does become that marginal player, I'd still rather take my chances with Iguchi.

I don't hate Willie. I do trust KW and OG to make a decision that is best for the team. They think getting Iguchi was for the best. That's enough to end the discussion even if I thought Willie was a potential AS 2B - which I don't.

mcfish
01-31-2005, 06:51 PM
he's going to have to make a major stride against LHA just to be considered "marginal" at this point. He may be capable of it. He may not.

Even if he does become that marginal player, I'd still rather take my chances with Iguchi.

I don't hate Willie. I do trust KW and OG to make a decision that is best for the team. They think getting Iguchi was for the best. That's enough to end the discussion even if I thought Willie was a potential AS 2B - which I don't.You are right about one thing for sure though, it isn't worth any more time debating/defending. I didn't really want to respond to this thread even until I saw the bit about the comparison to Crash being unwarranted, which I disagree with. I will try to stay away from Willie threads until ST unless I see something completely out of line.

mweflen
01-31-2005, 07:29 PM
I believe the phrase is "i couldnt care less." if u could care less that means that u do care. :wink:

actually, the phrase "I couldn't care less" indicates that you do not care about something. the level of caring that you could not possibly care less than is zero.

Mohoney
01-31-2005, 07:40 PM
Levine said the Sox were expecting numbers from Iguichi (.280, 25 steals, 10 HRs) that I think Willie could match this year (not HRs).

Iguchi better have, at the very least, 40 SB attempts. If not, then this change in philosophy permeating through our order will be for naught.

I want Podsednik and Iguchi running like madmen every time that they're standing on 1st base with 2nd base open and 1 out. Same goes for Rowand. The only everyday catcher in our division that really frightens me enough to alter this plan is Pudge, although Inge and Mauer can throw, too.

The more bases Iguchi steals and the more he gets into pitchers' heads, the better. Pitchers worried about these two can serve up some cookies to Dye or Frank in the #3 hole.

34 Inch Stick
02-01-2005, 09:59 AM
I would think Iguichi would have more attempts in the second half of the season than the first.

Ol' No. 2
02-01-2005, 10:21 AM
he's going to have to make a major stride against LHA just to be considered "marginal" at this point. He may be capable of it. He may not.

Even if he does become that marginal player, I'd still rather take my chances with Iguchi.

I don't hate Willie. I do trust KW and OG to make a decision that is best for the team. They think getting Iguchi was for the best. That's enough to end the discussion even if I thought Willie was a potential AS 2B - which I don't.I agree that the odds for Iguchi are better than for Willie. If they were in a rebuilding program, they might be able to afford to wait for Willie to develop, but that's not the case. On that basis alone, I agree with KW and OG.

balke
02-01-2005, 02:20 PM
I agree that the odds for Iguchi are better than for Willie. If they were in a rebuilding program, they might be able to afford to wait for Willie to develop, but that's not the case. On that basis alone, I agree with KW and OG.

The more I look at the #'s, the more I fear Willie never coming around. I do feel like he doesn't get a chance to swing his bat w/ the sox though, and that bothers me. He is forced to try and bunt on base too often. Iguchi already has his GG in Japan, and seems to already have a bat. I'd still like Both to be good for a good controversy, and so they would be somewhat valuable as trade bait.

PAPChiSox729
02-01-2005, 08:13 PM
The more bases Iguchi steals and the more he gets into pitchers' heads, the better. Pitchers worried about these two can serve up some cookies to Dye or Frank in the #3 hole.

That is what I love about this team. They are very, very fast. Having Pods or Iguchi on base, the pitcher worrying about giving up the stolen base, the catcher calling for fastball after fastball, Konerko or Frank at the plate! That is what I call excting baseball!!