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Kuzman
01-30-2005, 02:15 PM
Ok, last night me and my uncle got into it for about a good 2 hours on how the sox are going to be this year. It ended up with him betting me 50 dollars that the sox will be the "Worst in the AL in OBP"

So now let me ask you this question you sox fans. What do you think of the 2005 sox and how they look right now.

OurBitchinMinny
01-30-2005, 03:49 PM
Gun to my head? I say a second or third place team. The talent is there to win the division, but I have picked this team to win it the last 4 years and they have disappointed me time after time. This season im going with the pessimist approach, maybe it will turn things around. There are just so many question marks. ON paper the staff looks good, but what if injuries happen. How durable will hernandez be. Will Iguchi adjust quickly? Marte has to rebound. Thomas needs to stay off the DL once he gets back. Dye and pods have gigantic shoes to fill. Im not saying there is no way in hell this team will win, but they have to prove it to me. Im done saying, "but the sox are better on paper."

chisoxmike
01-30-2005, 04:45 PM
Gun to my head? I say a second or third place team. The talent is there to win the division, but I have picked this team to win it the last 4 years and they have disappointed me time after time. This season im going with the pessimist approach, maybe it will turn things around. There are just so many question marks. ON paper the staff looks good, but what if injuries happen. How durable will hernandez be. Will Iguchi adjust quickly? Marte has to rebound. Thomas needs to stay off the DL once he gets back. Dye and pods have gigantic shoes to fill. Im not saying there is no way in hell this team will win, but they have to prove it to me. Im done saying, "but the sox are better on paper."

AMEN! I agree with you. Since 2001-2003 I have picked the Sox to win the divison only to see them fail with a team that had the most talent in the AL Central. In 2004, I thought it was going to be the Royals and we all know how that turned out. (I'm not alone) Anyway, again in 2005 the Sox team looks great on paper and talent wise. But yes, there are a lot of ? and the people that don't realize this could be in for a long season. We filled our holes, yes we did. Probably the best job Kenny has done in his tenure here, but, they have to prove they can put two halfs together. The last 2 seasons they haven't been able to. Can this team make a run at the divison crown? Yes. Definatly. But I'm tired of them talking about it... DO IT!

spawn
01-30-2005, 04:48 PM
I like how they look, but until they pass the Twins on the field, I can't pick them to win the division.

Whitesox029
01-30-2005, 04:59 PM
Ok, last night me and my uncle got into it for about a good 2 hours on how the sox are going to be this year. It ended up with him betting me 50 dollars that the sox will be the "Worst in the AL in OBP"

So now let me ask you this question you sox fans. What do you think of the 2005 sox and how they look right now.
So even if they're only second to worst, you win $50? Give me a piece of that bet. I'd like to see a team like KC or TB beat the Sox in OBP.

eastchicagosoxfan
01-30-2005, 05:09 PM
Ok, last night me and my uncle got into it for about a good 2 hours on how the sox are going to be this year. It ended up with him betting me 50 dollars that the sox will be the "Worst in the AL in OBP"

So now let me ask you this question you sox fans. What do you think of the 2005 sox and how they look right now.
God help the moderators if the Sox are that bad.

cwsfannick
01-30-2005, 05:23 PM
I feel optimistic about the 2005 White Sox. My reason for feeling this way are as follows:

1. We go into the season with the deepest starting rotation and bullpen in recent years.
2. Improved defense up the middle.
3. Improved team speed. No longer a station to station ball club.
4. Acqusition of players that come from winning teams. These players will bring a winning attitude to this clubhouse.
5. A manager that has a team that fits his type of coaching style.

I have to believe if we can play better ball against the AL West, Tigers and perform as we have against the rest of league as we have in the past, then we have good chance of winning at least 90 games if not more.

DumpJerry
01-30-2005, 06:10 PM
I feel optimistic about the 2005 White Sox. My reason for feeling this way are as follows:

1. We go into the season with the deepest starting rotation and bullpen in recent years.
2. Improved defense up the middle.
3. Improved team speed. No longer a station to station ball club.
4. Acqusition of players that come from winning teams. These players will bring a winning attitude to this clubhouse.
5. A manager that has a team that fits his type of coaching style.

I have to believe if we can play better ball against the AL West, Tigers and perform as we have against the rest of league as we have in the past, then we have good chance of winning at least 90 games if not more.
I'm with you, Nick. This year's team is designed to win. It is unlike the past several teams in several important aspects and you hit on most of the points. Also, I'm not impressed with the how much the rivals have improved in our division. I can't remember the last time I was this excited about a season. Last year I was very pessimistic going into the season and was pleasantly surprised by the first half results.

BRDSR
01-30-2005, 06:18 PM
It ended up with him betting me 50 dollars that the sox will be the "Worst in the AL in OBP"


Did you get even odds on that, cause if so, I'd like a piece of that action.

northshoresoxfan
01-30-2005, 06:23 PM
I would like to believe they are going to win this year, but after the last two seasons I can't get my hopes up just yet. KW always gets us excited in Feb. but come Aug. we are all complaining about how he stinks. Some how his best laid plans always come up short.

That 2003 season just sucked all the wind out of me. And last year it looked like they had it in the bag until all the injuries. Once again they look great on paper, but that never seems to help us against the twins down the stretch.

shingo3
01-30-2005, 06:37 PM
Every year I think they will win the division but every year the Twins seem to pull it off. Im keeping my fingers crossed but im also being realistic.

Daver
01-30-2005, 06:45 PM
I feel optimistic about the 2005 White Sox. My reason for feeling this way are as follows:

1. We go into the season with the deepest starting rotation and bullpen in recent years.
2. Improved defense up the middle.
3. Improved team speed. No longer a station to station ball club.
4. Acqusition of players that come from winning teams. These players will bring a winning attitude to this clubhouse.
5. A manager that has a team that fits his type of coaching style.

I have to believe if we can play better ball against the AL West, Tigers and perform as we have against the rest of league as we have in the past, then we have good chance of winning at least 90 games if not more.

How has the defense improved?

It has gotten worse as far as I am concerned. Uribe is not the SS Jose was, Iguchi is a question mark, AJ is a lousy defensive catcher, Rowand is not a center fielder, and Podsiednick is as bad as Lee was in left.

I hope Frank Thomas is ready to go at the begining of the season, because they need him healthy and productive in order to make a dent in the offense that was lost in Lee and Ordonez.

On paper the pitching staff is improved, I'll beleive it is improved after the first thirty games, Hernendez and Contreas have yet to prove a change of scenery is going to improve their production.

Speaking of Contreas, the thought of AJ trying to catch his forkball makes me queasy. This defense better improve in huge strides to make up for the number of baserunners that will advance on the Sox pitching staff and the catcher.

Jabroni
01-30-2005, 06:54 PM
How has the defense improved?

It has gotten worse as far as I am concerned. Uribe is not the SS Jose was, Iguchi is a question mark, AJ is a lousy defensive catcher, Rowand is not a center fielder, and Podsiednick is as bad as Lee was in left.

I hope Frank Thomas is ready to go at the begining of the season, because they need him healthy and productive in order to make a dent in the offense that was lost in Lee and Ordonez.

On paper the pitching staff is improved, I'll beleive it is improved after the first thirty games, Hernendez and Contreas have yet to prove a change of scenery is going to improve their production.

Speaking of Contreas, the thought of AJ trying to catch his forkball makes me queasy. This defense better improve in huge strides to make up for the number of baserunners that will advance on the Sox pitching staff and the catcher.
Uribe isn't a better fielding SS than Valentin? Wow. :?:

cwsfannick
01-30-2005, 07:30 PM
Hmm the defense has not improved. Well lets see:

1. Catcher. Big Ben cannot pick a ball out of dirt or make a play at home for the life of him. I am not sure how many pass balls he had last year, but I know I witnessed at least two or three in one game against the twins last year. To take this one step further how many times did our catchers have the ball knocked out of their gloves on plays at home.

2. Uribe at SS. Much more accurate thrower than Jose ever was. I believe most of us held our collective breaths when he had to make a throw anywhere.

3. Harris has a good range, but not he strongest arm. On more than 1 occasion he was unable to turn the 6-4-3 dp due to lack of arm strength. He seems to have a hard time making throws to first across his body.

4. CF. Aaron has the speed to cover the gaps and the best arm out of our starting outfielders.

5. LF. I am not sure about POD's defense, but it cannot be any worse than CLee's. There is a reason he did not have an error last year. That is because he would not make attempts on balls that would be tweeners and unless he throwing home from short left field, then he never had a chance in throwing anybody out a home. I did not want to C Lee traded, but it helped us plug some glaring holes.

Chisox003
01-30-2005, 07:34 PM
Daver, I realize Uribe hasnt played that many games at SS, but from what we did get to see last year, hes a stud with the leather....Flashy, good range, quick turn, good arm...The only knock I can see is sometimes he has a brain fart and makes a dumb play, but that can be fixed...

I really like the team this year...Then again, I have liked the team for the past 2 or 3 years and, well we know the outcomes....

I honestly want to pick the Sox to win the division, but they somehow prove me wrong year after year...Until the Twins aren't the champs, we cant pick against them...Or we can, only to have our team break our hearts and fall apart late July.......again!

But Im an optimist, so Sox in '05

!Winning=Fung!
01-30-2005, 07:35 PM
!Whatever Ozzie Thinks!

HomeFish
01-30-2005, 07:45 PM
Why I think this team will disapoint big-time:

1) Overrated Starters. So many people are hyping up the Sox staff as if it were one of the best in the league. This is ridiculous. Buerhle is an inherently unreliable pitcher, for he relies not on power, the only certainty, but on average stuff. For every night he's brilliant, there can be a night where his high-80's stuff fools nobody and gets smacked over the wall. Garcia may be a power pitcher, but he is prone to giving up home runs, and, well, look where he'll be playing half his games. Contreras is Mr. Inconsistency, and has a career ERA of something very high. El Duque is old and injury prone. Garland is...well, even the most optimistic among you will agree with me that Garland is nothing to get excited about.

2) Overrated bullpen. Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

3) Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

4) A leadoff man who hit .244 last year. And people are getting excited about him?

5) A gaping offensive hole at third base.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Iguchi has never hit MLB pitching, and that even in Japan there were years where he hit only .240 or so. He is a huge gamble, and we might learn the hard way that not all Japanese imports work out.

Edit again: Oh, and if Iguchi fails, what do we get? !Whatever Ozzie Think!'s sig has the answer.

bafiarocks03
01-30-2005, 07:47 PM
!Whatever Ozzie Thinks!'

yea buddy you so need to change your sig! DOn't be mean to willie! he's awesome! and there is just no reason for you to be mean to him! ok!

santo=dorf
01-30-2005, 07:48 PM
Why I think this team will disapoint big-time:

1) Overrated Starters. So many people are hyping up the Sox staff as if it were one of the best in the league. This is ridiculous. Buerhle is an inherently unreliable pitcher, for he relies not on power, the only certainty, but on average stuff. For every night he's brilliant, there can be a night where his high-80's stuff fools nobody and gets smacked over the wall. Garcia may be a power pitcher, but he is prone to giving up home runs, and, well, look where he'll be playing half his games. Contreras is Mr. Inconsistency, and has a career ERA of something very high. El Duque is old and injury prone. Garland is...well, even the most optimistic among you will agree with me that Garland is nothing to get excited about.

2) Overrated bullpen. Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERAA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

3) Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

4) A leadoff man who hit .244 last year. And people are getting excited about him?

5) A gaping offensive hole at third base.

Quite possibly the worst post I have ever seen, and that's really saying something.

Daver
01-30-2005, 07:50 PM
Hmm the defense has not improved. Well lets see:

1. Catcher. Big Ben cannot pick a ball out of dirt or make a play at home for the life of him. I am not sure how many pass balls he had last year, but I know I witnessed at least two or three in one game against the twins last year. To take this one step further how many times did our catchers have the ball knocked out of their gloves on plays at home.

2. Uribe at SS. Much more accurate thrower than Jose ever was. I believe most of us held our collective breaths when he had to make a throw anywhere.

3. Harris has a good range, but not he strongest arm. On more than 1 occasion he was unable to turn the 6-4-3 dp due to lack of arm strength. He seems to have a hard time making throws to first across his body.

4. CF. Aaron has the speed to cover the gaps and the best arm out of our starting outfielders.

5. LF. I am not sure about POD's defense, but it cannot be any worse than CLee's. There is a reason he did not have an error last year. That is because he would not make attempts on balls that would be tweeners and unless he throwing home from short left field, then he never had a chance in throwing anybody out a home. I did not want to C Lee traded, but it helped us plug some glaring holes.

1. AJ is NOT an improvement.

2. Jose's arm was his best asset, along with the much better range he had over Uribe, only A Rod attempted more chances than Jose at the SS position.

3.Why you mention Harris is beyond me, he will not be playing second base, instead Iguchi, and his 0 MLB playing time will.

4. Speed does not equal range, and Rowands speed is not much better than average, his ability to play the ball off the bat is not good, and he doesn't use that arm very well because he never puts himself in a position to make a throw.

5. Instead you have Podsiednick, who will make attempts on balls he has no hope of catching, instead of standing on the warning track like Lee did and keeping everythiing in front of him.

You do not make a convincing argument.

!Winning=Fung!
01-30-2005, 07:58 PM
'

yea buddy you so need to change your sig! DOn't be mean to willie! he's awesome! and there is just no reason for you to be mean to him! ok!

:whiner:Okay then, maybe we need a Willie Poll, Is Willy awesome, Or does whiney Willie deserve another chance. Our manager isn't Jerry Manuel anymore, R. Alomar twice, almost visquel, bad attitude...

Id rather see Iggy's big smile anyday. If Willie stays, I don't want to see his face when Iggy returns to the dugout after cracking a single, stealing second, and scoring on a J Dye or Arow single.

balke
01-30-2005, 08:20 PM
Huge difference from beginning lineup of last season compared to the beginning of this season: last year w/ maggs and Frank there were two hitters that you feared pitching against. Now, Frank is so banged up, I don't even know if we have one.

I'm happy to have Jose off the team, at least offensively I see Uribe as an upgrade (Stikeout king Valentine). I still have a mental image of the stache dropping an important late inning pop-up v. the Twinks w/ garland pitching last season. I wasn't really super impressed with Jose's D. He was great at turning double plays though. Overall I'll happily take Uribe's 25 hr over that jerks 30+ any season. Too many K's, automatic out most games.

I may have jumped the gun a little on loving Iguchi. I'm starting believe this season we need to let Willie and Iguchi battle it out at 2nd. I still believe Willie can steal 25+ as Iguchi does, and that Willie may be able to hit if we don't have him bunt every at-bat. I've heard people say Willie has the tools to be an elite, if not THE elite 2nd basemen in the A.L. Hopefully he gets one more shot, and fights to the end. That being said, Uribe was probably better at 2nd then both will be. But I shouldn't form an opinion til this season actually starts.

I think we are definitely upgraded at catcher. I like that our main guy won't be Sandy Alomar for once. And our third guy will be Jaime Burke, who does nothing but hit whenever we call him up.

Now we have a 5th starter, who was last year's 3rd starter. Now we don't have Koch at closer... or set-up man... or peanut vendor to lose us games.

Rowand was fine at CF last season, hopefully I can say the same this year. Obviously Lee and Maggs would be better all around than Pods, Dye... but what can you do when we get shafted by a sellout gimp claiming miracles. I already miss carlos, but we will survive.

I think these teams are going to be equal overall. Last year's lineup guaranteed victories as long as our pitcher didn't give up 6+ runs. We can't say that this year, but we have more pitchers that will give up very few runs. I like a popped filled lineup, but as long as this pitching staff lives up to potential, I can cheer that just the same.

In the end, I loved last years team going in. I love this years team now. both have flaws, but both start the season with potential.

Jabroni
01-30-2005, 08:39 PM
Why I think this team will disapoint big-time:

1) Overrated Starters. So many people are hyping up the Sox staff as if it were one of the best in the league. This is ridiculous. Buerhle is an inherently unreliable pitcher, for he relies not on power, the only certainty, but on average stuff. For every night he's brilliant, there can be a night where his high-80's stuff fools nobody and gets smacked over the wall. Garcia may be a power pitcher, but he is prone to giving up home runs, and, well, look where he'll be playing half his games. Contreras is Mr. Inconsistency, and has a career ERA of something very high. El Duque is old and injury prone. Garland is...well, even the most optimistic among you will agree with me that Garland is nothing to get excited about.

2) Overrated bullpen. Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

3) Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

4) A leadoff man who hit .244 last year. And people are getting excited about him?

5) A gaping offensive hole at third base.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Iguchi has never hit MLB pitching, and that even in Japan there were years where he hit only .240 or so. He is a huge gamble, and we might learn the hard way that not all Japanese imports work out.

Edit again: Oh, and if Iguchi fails, what do we get? !Whatever Ozzie Think!'s sig has the answer.
Wow, is our entire team "inherently unreliable"? :rolleyes:

SABRSox
01-30-2005, 08:49 PM
Here's my two cents. The Twins are still the team to beat. They still have every single pitcher from last year's staff, 1 to 11. Their starters get the job done, and their bullpen shuts it down. Plus, if they can get a full year out of guys like Morneau and Mauer, they'll be extra tough to beat.

However, I think the Sox can make a legitimate run for it. I think their defense is better, particularly at 2b. Just because Iguchi has 0 MLB games under his belt doesn't mean he can't field a baseball. Japan is like AAAA, and if he's winning gold gloves over there at that position, I'd like you to name a better 2b defender in our organization. He will be an upgrade over Harris.

I agree that Uribe is a downgrade from Valentin. Jose had great range. I don't care about his errors. Uribe can handle the posistion fine, though. However, the Sox are a better team offensively without Jose, as his .216 avg and .287 obp were a black hole in the lineup. (Of course, we still have the black hole Joe Crede in the lineup too...)

The Sox have improved offensively at C, though they re-signed Ben Davis in an ill-conceived move (that guy is not worth $1mil.) The concern about baserunners running all over Sox pitching/catching is a valid concern.

Their OF defense will be average. But it's not as if the Cell is a cavernous outfield, and I doubt the defense in the OF, or lack thereof, will cost the Sox anything more than maybe a game or two.

I think if the Sox stay healthy, get a productive Frank back, and are able to keep up with the Twins, this squad may be able to win a battle of attrition, unlike teams in years past.

As of now, my end of the season predictions:
1 - Twins
2 - White Sox 3.0 gb
3 - Indians 4.0 gb
4 - Tigers 9.0 gb
5 - Royals 15.0 gb

ma-gaga
01-30-2005, 08:55 PM
AJ is an offensive catcher. He's average, at best, defensively. As long as his bloopers are falling, his offense outweighs his defense.

I don't know enough about Rowands defense, but he put up a tremendous offensive season last year. If he's close to average defensively, he's a good player. Pods is a downgrade from Lee. I think Milwaukee "screwed" KW here. However, Dye is a nice upgrade from the crappy RF'ers that played 70% of RF last year. I'd say the OF is a push. With money factored in, KW did a nice job.

In my book, it's all about keeping the SP's healthy. They are going to carry or break this team. I don't know if the defense is better or worse, but if the pitching holds up, the Sox should be 5-7 games better than last year, to 88-90 wins.

Will that be enough?!? Depends on the rest of the division. :gulp:

HoustonAstros967
01-30-2005, 09:02 PM
I think that the Twins and Sox are gonna fight it out to the end but the Sox are gonna take the division.

MRKARNO
01-30-2005, 09:06 PM
I'm going to take a semi-statistical approach for this, but I think if you dont appreciate statistics you will appreciate my point:

First Base:
2004: Paul Konerko 48.1 VORP
2005: Paul Konerko (same player)

Pauly will probably be about the same next year, though with few homers unless that 2004 park effect at the cell turns out to be permenant. His year last year wasnt too out of line with his 1999-2002 stats and we all know that 2003 was just a historically amazing disaster.

Second Base:
2004: Harris/Uribe (this one is hard because Willie got some time in center and Uribe some time at short and third. Willie's VORP was 5.2 and Uribe's was 32.1)
2005: Iguchi
I think Iguchi will be a lot better than the combined production that was gotten out of the second base platoon. He's probably a better Polanco and as offensively valuable as Uribe. This should be a decent to significant upgrade

Short stop
2004: Valentin (Uribe got some time here, but Jose got most) 14.9 VORP
2005: Uribe 32.1 VORP
I think we'll also see an important increase in overall production from shortstop as Jose was brutal last year at points. At least Uribe gets on base at a medicore to bad rate while Jose gets on base at one of the worst rates in the majors. You have to think this is some sort of an upgrade, especially with Uribe likely to further develop into a better hitter next year

Third base
2004: Crede 1.2 VORP
2005: Crede
You gotta think he's going to be somewhat better next year, at least at 2003 levels right? Well, he cant get much worse (I think).

Catcher
2004: Olivo/Burke/Alomar/Davis Combined VORP=14
2005: AJ Pierzynski 15.2
Last year was a down year for AJ, but in 2003, his VORP was 41.4, second only to Jorge Posada at catchers in the AL. Moving from SBC Park to the Cell should provide for an increase in production, along with progression back to the mean.

Left Field
2004: Carlos Lee 46.8 VORP
2005: Podsednik 19.3
This is a downgrade, but it's important to note the following: Podsednik has had more trouble at home than on the road in both of his full major league seasons. Maybe the combo of a progression back to his normal level (if somewhere bet. 2003 and 2004 is his "normal" level) and moving to a better home environment will move him a lot closer to his 48.1 2003 VORP. Then maybe it wont be such a downgrade

Center Field
2004: Rowand 50 VORP
2005 Rowand
Is Rowand for real? This is the year we find out if he is one of the premier AL Center Fielders or he just experienced a career year last year

Right Field
2004: Maggs/Timo/Borchard -7.5
2005: Jermaine Dye 23.3
Yes this position acutally managed a negative VORP in 2004 because of how bad Borchard and Timo were. Even if Dye is just average next year, like he was last year, it will be a major improvement over the disaster we had last year when Maggs went down. Worst case scenario: Everett is hitting better and he comes in and replaces Jermaine.

DH
2004: Frank Thomas/Ross Gload/Everett 54.6
2005: Thomas/Everett
I think the inclusion of Gload might skew things a little because i cant remember who filled in for thomas at DH, unless it was him. Gload's VORP was 17. If Thomas manages to be on the team for 4.5 to 5 months, I think he can match or eclipse that number by a fair margin.

That's just on the offensive side. I'll (try to) get into the pitching side of things in a later post.

balke
01-30-2005, 09:14 PM
Quite possibly the worst post I have ever seen, and that's really saying something.

Isn't Homefish the guy who told everyone all season about how Rowand wouldn't finish .300 and he'll never have a year like this again? We'll see if he's right I guess this year. At least I didn't have to hear the "Garcia and Buerhle are mildly proficient #2 or #3 starters" argument again.

Although super pessimistic, everything he's saying is true. Just sickeningly pessimistic. I'm sure he'll hit the mark on some of those statements. Even proven All-stars have 1 or 2 pitiful seasons from time to time. We know this too well. Some player on our team will most likely have a horrible season this year.

balke
01-30-2005, 09:19 PM
Right Field
2004: Maggs/Timo/Borchard -7.5
2005: Jermaine Dye 23.3
Yes this position acutally managed a negative VORP in 2004 because of how bad Borchard and Timo were. Even if Dye is just average next year, like he was last year, it will be a major improvement over the disaster we had last year when Maggs went down. Worst case scenario: Everett is hitting better and he comes in and replaces Jermaine.



If you get the urge, What was Maggs VORP in 2003? And what the heck is VORP?

Daver
01-30-2005, 09:24 PM
Value Over Replacement Player may be the dumbest stat I have ever seen.

Numbers do not play the game, and VORP is a strictly offensive way to look at things.

MRKARNO
01-30-2005, 09:46 PM
Value Over Replacement Player may be the dumbest stat I have ever seen.

Numbers do not play the game, and VORP is a strictly offensive way to look at things.

Well would you at least agree that the combo of Maggs, Timo and Borchard is probably significantly worse than a whole year of Jermaine Dye?

Edit: Also, is it not possible that two reasonable and rational people can look at the game in two very different ways and both be correct?


Stats obviously can never tell the whole story, but they provide another source of information. If there are historical trends among players and player development that is relfected in the stats, doesnt it make sense to try to see if a given player might fall into one of those trends?

santo=dorf
01-30-2005, 09:50 PM
Although super pessimistic, everything he's saying is true.

No it isn't. I didn't want to waste my time breaking it down, but I guess I don't have any other options.


"Buerhle is an inherently unreliable pitcher, for he relies not on power, the only certainty, but on average stuff. For every night he's brilliant, there can be a night where his high-80's stuff fools nobody and gets smacked over the wall."

4 consecutive seasons with 200+ IP, in 2004 he had 35 starts, 23 of them were considered "quality" starts (3rd in the AL.)

Garcia may be a power pitcher, but he is prone to giving up home runs, and, well, look where he'll be playing half his games.

Oh really? Last year with the Sox Garcia had a GB/FB ratio of 1.34. Naturally he gave up more homers than normally considering he's pitching half his games at the best hitter's park in the MLB. Of course we could stick Sandy ****ing Koufax at USCF and people like Homefish would bitch about the increasing number of homers being gave up. THAT HAPPENS TO EVERY PITCHER AT USCF!!

Contreras is Mr. Inconsistency, and has a career ERA of something very high
His career ERA is 4.85, which isn't too bad considering some of the outings he has had, and the fact that he'll be our number 4 pitcher.

El Duque is old and injury prone. Garland is...well, even the most optimistic among you will agree with me that Garland is nothing to get excited about.
Yes El Duque is old and had surgery in 2003, but he's still a better option than any of the other garbage the Sox have marched out there the past 3 seasons to complete the rotation. Garland can still improve, and how many other teams in the MLB can count on their 5th starter getting them 12 wins?

Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERAA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

So Buehrle and Shingo are "unreliable" because they don't throw smoke? What kind of sense does that make? They get people out without giving up many runs. Vizcaino limited opponents to a .228 (61-267) average overall and left-handers to a .163 (21-129) average, second-lowest among National League. Hermanson had two seasons where his ERA was over 7 (1996, 13.2 IP, and 2002, 22 IP when he was hurt) nice sample size! :rolleyes: Marte is a joke? :kneeslap:

Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

Homefish thinks if a guy had a good year last season, there's no way in hell he can repeat it, yet if a guy had a bad year last season, there's no way in hell he can break out of the slump. Again. :rolleyes: Who's to say Rowand and Uribe had "Career" years, and not a "break-out" season?
A leadoff man who hit .244 last year. And people are getting excited about him?

More of Homefish's logic where a guy who had a bad season after having a great year has no chance of improving of their efforts from last season. You do realize that Scotty says he altered his swing to hit more homers, which resulted in a decline in performance last season, don't you?

A gaping offensive hole at third base.
:rolleyes:
He's not that bad, and he has been working hard this offseason to fix his swing. He still had 21 homers last season, and had a lot of clutch hits.

I would love to see your rebuttal, but I suggest you don't even bother wasting your time because I won't be able to see it anyways.

Fake Chet Lemon
01-30-2005, 09:53 PM
I think Ozzie is more of an asset than we know. He came in cold last year, he didn't know jack about the organization. But his learning curve was fantastic. He admitted at Sox Fest that he had no clue all of the 5th starter auditioners were so bad, he knew nothing about the minors. But now he knows this organization backwards and forwards. And for those saying our starting staff isn't that good. You can pick apart any staff in the league like that and find faults with everyone. Compared to everyone else, Kenny has built a strong staff with Dustin also ready to step in if needed. Pick the Sox to win the division, with Ozzie we would have have one or two more division titles in the last few years.

balke
01-30-2005, 10:03 PM
You didn't have to do all that Santo, I don't buy into the pessimism. Homefish can say everyone will be bad all he wants, that doesn't make it true. It's almost as if he is typing the worst possible scenerio for next season, so he must have a long history as a sox fan. I find it flattering he couldn't say more.

Buerhle is awesome, he does have games where he gets rocked though. I like Shingo, but only am confident if he comes in w/ a 3-run lead. Garcia rules, but only for 6-7 innings. Garland is good, not a star. Contreres could make or break our season. And El Duque should wear a question mark instead of a # on his jersey.

But all 5 have more positives than negatives. And all should do well. I'll never say Rowand's a fluke until he proves it. Dye is more likely to go up than down, as is Crede.

I wouldn't go into this season thinking we can't win the division, but i wouldn't run in making guarantees either.

!Winning=Fung!
01-30-2005, 10:06 PM
That is why I say give allota credit to our savior ozzie. He went up to kenny demanding the j manuel change. We will see like you said how valuable he is. 2005 Manager of the Year, not to take away from KW, he truelly came through.

balke
01-30-2005, 10:09 PM
I think Ozzie is more of an asset than we know. He came in cold last year, he didn't know jack about the organization. But his learning curve was fantastic. He admitted at Sox Fest that he had no clue all of the 5th starter auditioners were so bad, he knew nothing about the minors. But now he knows this organization backwards and forwards. And for those saying our starting staff isn't that good. You can pick apart any staff in the league like that and find faults with everyone. Compared to everyone else, Kenny has built a strong staff with Dustin also ready to step in if needed. Pick the Sox to win the division, with Ozzie we would have have one or two more division titles in the last few years.

Ozzie sucks. He's Manuel's evil clone. Not only did he not know a thing about the pitchers coming in from the minors, he didn't know a thing about the pitchers he had starting for him all season. As well as not knowing when to take them out, or to keep his mouth shut about them in the media.
Last season wasn't his rookie season, cause the way he coached he never made it out of the minors. That being said, let's see what he does w/ "his kind" of players this season. And whether or not he can manage to piss all the players off and tell them they suck before the season starts.

OEO Magglio
01-30-2005, 10:14 PM
Why I think this team will disapoint big-time:

1) Overrated Starters. So many people are hyping up the Sox staff as if it were one of the best in the league. This is ridiculous. Buerhle is an inherently unreliable pitcher, for he relies not on power, the only certainty, but on average stuff. For every night he's brilliant, there can be a night where his high-80's stuff fools nobody and gets smacked over the wall. Garcia may be a power pitcher, but he is prone to giving up home runs, and, well, look where he'll be playing half his games. Contreras is Mr. Inconsistency, and has a career ERA of something very high. El Duque is old and injury prone. Garland is...well, even the most optimistic among you will agree with me that Garland is nothing to get excited about.

2) Overrated bullpen. Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

3) Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

4) A leadoff man who hit .244 last year. And people are getting excited about him?

5) A gaping offensive hole at third base.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Iguchi has never hit MLB pitching, and that even in Japan there were years where he hit only .240 or so. He is a huge gamble, and we might learn the hard way that not all Japanese imports work out.

Edit again: Oh, and if Iguchi fails, what do we get? !Whatever Ozzie Think!'s sig has the answer.
You know what, I'm sorry you're an absolutely fricken idiot if you think Buehrle is unreliable because he isn't a power pitcher. I can't believe you even pretend to be a baseball fan, you don't have to throw a ball hard to be a good pitcher, gosh you're posts are getting more moronic every single day.

!Winning=Fung!
01-30-2005, 10:16 PM
Balke, your a cubs fan aren't you. Those pitchers were all ozzie had.

!Winning=Fung!
01-30-2005, 10:18 PM
So your saying you want dusty baker, one who says nothin and justs listens to the boombox, give it up.

MRKARNO
01-30-2005, 10:22 PM
Some people will look at a player and find their good side and others will see only the bad side of that particular player. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle...

balke
01-30-2005, 10:23 PM
I just hate Ozzie as manager. I like him for the fans of Ozzie, but that's it. We had a different lineup every day last season, and he said and did a lot of dumb things that affected this team. Sometimes I wonder if Maggs had another reason for leaving.
I would reserve your cubs fan comments around here for when someone says anything positive about them whatsoever, and for when you grow a post count that proves that you yourself are not a troll lurking.

oeo
01-30-2005, 10:32 PM
So your saying you want dusty baker, one who says nothin and justs listens to the boombox, give it up.

I sure hope not because Dusty Baker is not a good coach, he's a good motivational speaker. As you can tell from last year, he has no control over that clubhouse, they piss over anything and everything. At least Ozzie does have control of the clubhouse, if you've got something to say, you're going to hear about it from Ozzie. I love that, I don't really care what he says to the media, the media is bullsh*t anyway. I love the way Ozzie says what's on his mind, it might be because I'm the same way.

Chisox003
01-30-2005, 11:07 PM
Why I think this team will disapoint big-time:

1) Overrated Starters. So many people are hyping up the Sox staff as if it were one of the best in the league. This is ridiculous. Buerhle is an inherently unreliable pitcher, for he relies not on power, the only certainty, but on average stuff. For every night he's brilliant, there can be a night where his high-80's stuff fools nobody and gets smacked over the wall. Garcia may be a power pitcher, but he is prone to giving up home runs, and, well, look where he'll be playing half his games. Contreras is Mr. Inconsistency, and has a career ERA of something very high. El Duque is old and injury prone. Garland is...well, even the most optimistic among you will agree with me that Garland is nothing to get excited about.

2) Overrated bullpen. Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

3) Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

4) A leadoff man who hit .244 last year. And people are getting excited about him?

5) A gaping offensive hole at third base.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Iguchi has never hit MLB pitching, and that even in Japan there were years where he hit only .240 or so. He is a huge gamble, and we might learn the hard way that not all Japanese imports work out.

Edit again: Oh, and if Iguchi fails, what do we get? !Whatever Ozzie Think!'s sig has the answer.

I began breaking this down, and I realized that it wasnt even worth it...He makes absolutely zero good points, and I have to agree with Santo=dorf, this is the WORST post ever....

Homefish, Im assuming youre a Sox fan and naturally you have to be pessimistic, as I have never met a Sox fan who isnt...But if you are going to make the argument that this team is over rated, at least make a few correct points...Dont even waste your time posting sh*t like this...Thanks buddy

popilius
01-30-2005, 11:24 PM
[QUOTE=HomeFish]

2) Overrated bullpen. Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

3) Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

QUOTE]

I don't understand it when fans fail to recognize the difference between fluke seasons and legitimate success. Rowand will have a solid year, and will be be an All-Star within the next 3 years. This is because he has sound fundamental skills. If you watch Rowand before and after his success, he's completely different; his mindset, yes, but also his shortened swing, better pitch selection, more aware of the space, timing, of CF play, more accurate throws, etc, not to mention hard-nosed play.

These are the things that DO last. . . things that DON'T last, as you put it, are Loaiza's success. This is because he had one facet of pitching that drove everything (his cutter). Once this relatively difficult-to-throw pitch failed, he had nothing to fall back on. Rowand his fundamentally sound all-around. . . and still learning and getting better.

Uribe may have a good year, but he's still a free swinger. It could really hurt him if he tries to kill the ball everytime like Crede.

I look forward to success from Shingo because much of his so-called 'trickery' comes not only from the physical release and flight of his pitches but his ability to out-think hitters.

Thus, it's a question of adjustment.We all know that part of the beauty of baseball is that it's a game of constant adjustment. The greatest pitchers and hitters constantly adjusted to the hitters and pitchers they faced, the situation, the weather, etc. We'll see how well Shingo adjusts. Rowand's adjustment last year is what really came as a pleasant surprise to me, it's a mark of a solid ballplayer.

:gulp:

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2005, 11:34 PM
Why I think this team will disapoint big-time:

1) Overrated Starters. So many people are hyping up the Sox staff as if it were one of the best in the league. This is ridiculous. Buerhle is an inherently unreliable pitcher, for he relies not on power, the only certainty, but on average stuff. For every night he's brilliant, there can be a night where his high-80's stuff fools nobody and gets smacked over the wall. Garcia may be a power pitcher, but he is prone to giving up home runs, and, well, look where he'll be playing half his games. Contreras is Mr. Inconsistency, and has a career ERA of something very high. El Duque is old and injury prone. Garland is...well, even the most optimistic among you will agree with me that Garland is nothing to get excited about.

2) Overrated bullpen. Shingo, like Buerhle, is inherently unreliable because he does not have overpowering stuff, but relies on mere trickery. Vizcaino has a career ERA of 4.52. Hermanson is perhaps the best guy in here, but even he is aging and has had terrible (7.00+ ERA) years. Politte has been inconsistent, and everyone else in here is a joke.

3) Lots of guys coming off career years. Rowand and Uribe in particular were way over their heads last year in terms of the numbers they were putting up. These things don't last. Look at Podsednik's decline fromm 2003 to 2004 -- that's the sort of stuff I'd look out for with Rowand and Uribe.

4) A leadoff man who hit .244 last year. And people are getting excited about him?

5) A gaping offensive hole at third base.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Iguchi has never hit MLB pitching, and that even in Japan there were years where he hit only .240 or so. He is a huge gamble, and we might learn the hard way that not all Japanese imports work out.

Edit again: Oh, and if Iguchi fails, what do we get? !Whatever Ozzie Think!'s sig has the answer. :chickenlittle
Pitching wins, and the pitching staff is greatly improved over last year.

Jjav829
01-30-2005, 11:35 PM
That is why I say give allota credit to our savior ozzie. He went up to kenny demanding the j manuel change. We will see like you said how valuable he is. 2005 Manager of the Year, not to take away from KW, he truelly came through.

Huh? Ozzie went to KW demanding that Manuel be fired? You do remember that Ozzie was not part of this organization when Manuel was fired?

Also, ease up on calling people Cubs fans. It's not appreciated and it won't help you to stick around here.

Chisox003
01-30-2005, 11:41 PM
Huh? Ozzie went to KW demanding that Manuel be fired? You do remember that Ozzie was not part of this organization when Manuel was fired?

Also, ease up on calling people Cubs fans. It's not appreciated and it won't help you to stick around here.

That Winning=Fung guy is a joke...Out of the 3 posts I've read by him, I understand ZERO of them...:rolleyes:

WhiteSoxFan84
01-30-2005, 11:43 PM
Some of you may not like hearing this, but we have turned into the 2001-2004 Minnesota Twins. Pitching, speed, defense, and no more than 1-2 power hitters.

popilius
01-30-2005, 11:48 PM
Some of you may not like hearing this, but we have turned into the 2001-2004 Minnesota Twins. Pitching, speed, defense, and no more than 1-2 power hitters.

You might be right about pure power hitters, but we have several players capable of hitting 20: Dye, Everett, Rowand, Uribe, Thomas (if healthy). . . :gulp:

AND Konerko. . . duh!:rolleyes:

balke
01-30-2005, 11:49 PM
Some of you may not like hearing this, but we have turned into the 2001-2004 Minnesota Twins. Pitching, speed, defense, and no more than 1-2 power hitters.

They've never had power hitters like ours. Comparing us to them, you'd have to say we have like 6 power hitters in Dye, HOT CARL, Frank, Paulie, uribe and Rowand. We definitely don't have their speed though.

Chisox003
01-30-2005, 11:53 PM
Some of you may not like hearing this, but we have turned into the 2001-2004 Minnesota Twins. Pitching, speed, defense, and no more than 1-2 power hitters.

I really have to disagree with this....Assuming you are considering Hunter, Koskie and Jacque Jones (Ortiz before Boston?) their main power hitters over those years, they dont compare...I would consider Konerko, Dye, Crede, Rowand, and Thomas (Healthy) all power hitters, as they are good for AT LEAST 20-25 HR's EACH (I think Konerko & Dye will hit 30+) ...Add Uribe, Everett, and even Pierzynski, plus the fact that they play 81 games at the Cell....Uncomparable

The loss of HR's is greatly exaggerated...There will be more than enough long balls from the Sox this year

!Winning=Fung!
01-30-2005, 11:53 PM
NO NO, I said Ozzie made KW change what J Manuel had in place, not to fire him. I mentioned cubs fan cause he's an ozzie basher, and to me dusty baker is opposite manager of dusty. Your right, bringin the scrubs up was bad, we all dislike them. Its wierd how everyone was all over Jerry M. cause he wouldnt say anything. Now that we have Ozzie I hear complaining. Only if we still had LaRussa.

Jabroni
01-30-2005, 11:55 PM
Some of you may not like hearing this, but we have turned into the 2001-2004 Minnesota Twins. Pitching, speed, defense, and no more than 1-2 power hitters.http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400021.jpg
"Aren't you forgetting me?"

Chisox003
01-30-2005, 11:58 PM
NO NO, I said Ozzie made KW change what J Manuel had in place, not to fire him. I mentioned cubs fan cause he's an ozzie basher, and to me dusty baker is opposite manager of dusty. Your right, bringin the scrubs up was bad, we all dislike them. Its wierd how everyone was all over Jerry M. cause he wouldnt say anything. Now that we have Ozzie I hear complaining. Only if we still had LaRussa.

Still have no clue what this guy is talking about....

"I mentioned cubs fan cause he's an ozzie basher, and to me dusty baker is opposite manager of dusty"

Huh?

I like how he refers to J. Manuel and Jerry M. without ever spelling both names...Interesting post

Edit: I failed to mention that I have no idea what his name means, same goes with the Sig...I take it hes not from around here...?

santo=dorf
01-30-2005, 11:59 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400021.jpg
"Aren't you forgetting me?"

We're not counting Charlotte's roster. :D:

popilius
01-31-2005, 12:03 AM
We're not counting Charlotte's roster. :D:

Or perhaps Birmingham. . .

Poor Joe. . .

:gulp:

!Winning=Fung!
01-31-2005, 12:05 AM
Still have no clue what this guy is talking about....

"I mentioned cubs fan cause he's an ozzie basher, and to me dusty baker is opposite manager of dusty"

Huh?

I like how he refers to J. Manuel and Jerry M. without ever spelling both names...Interesting post

Sorry i meant dusty is opposite ozzie, and i'll use full names next time. My first language is spanish, that would explain it. Seems more like japanese, huh? I wonder how the sox clubhouse is with three languages! Interesting