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View Full Version : Hawk as a GM, was he really that bad?


santo=dorf
01-28-2005, 08:07 PM
I'm too young to remember Hawk as the GM, but whenever I ask my dad about him, he always brings up putting Fisk in LF, and trading Bobby Bonilla.

One of the posters at Soxtalk wrote about Hawk in his blog (http://blackbetsy.blogspot.com/) (5th article down,) and judging by the moves he made, it doesn't look like he was that bad of a GM.

Can some of you old farts add some insight to Hawk as the GM?

http://www.geocities.com/matthewweflen/embarass11a.jpg

Nick@Nite
01-28-2005, 08:09 PM
Since he ran Tony LaRussa out of Chicago, I'd have to say yes.

Viva Medias B's
01-28-2005, 08:11 PM
Wasn't it Hawk who signed Julio Cruz to that long contract too?

hose
01-28-2005, 08:12 PM
Hawk was flatout terrible as a GM. He went to NY to do tv for the Yankees games after he was canned.

robertks61
01-28-2005, 08:25 PM
Fisk -> left field, LaRussa -> fired, Hawk -> he gone!

DumpJerry
01-28-2005, 08:31 PM
Yeah, he wasn't that good. Neither was the owner.

zach074
01-28-2005, 08:37 PM
I think Hawk is a better annoucer than he was a GM.

Viva Medias B's
01-28-2005, 08:39 PM
I think Hawk is a better annoucer than he was a GM.

:moron
"I beg to differ."

Brian26
01-28-2005, 08:43 PM
Wasn't it Hawk who signed Julio Cruz to that long contract too?

Not at all. Cruz became a free agent after the '83 season, and that's when Hemond, JR and Einhorn signed him to the huge salary. Hawk was very pro-Cruz though, as I remember him saying in an interview that he had called JR and EE to tell them they HAD to sign Juice.

Brian26
01-28-2005, 08:45 PM
Hawk was flatout terrible as a GM. He went to NY to do tv for the Yankees games after he was canned.

He wasn't flatout terrible. His year as GM was more controversial than anything, but it wasn't necessarily bad. He made some decent moves. He rocked the boat too- and that's why people were so negative about it.

DrCrawdad
01-28-2005, 08:54 PM
WSI needs some sort of permanent place for Hawk as GM discussions, well not so much for the discussion as the list of facts, trades made, players signed & manager(s) let go.

Brian26
01-28-2005, 09:11 PM
WSI needs some sort of permanent place for Hawk as GM discussions, well not so much for the discussion as the list of facts, trades made, players signed & manager(s) let go.

I'd love to see that, just to see someone try to explain what the hell was going on with Ron Hassey, the Sox and the Yankees. Talk about playing hot potato with a guy's career.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2005, 09:31 PM
Once again ask and ye shall receive:

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.

Hawk was a walking disaster. From Fisk in left field, to prompting the firing of LaRussa (and actively negotiating with Billy Martin before LaRussa was let go...) to trading Bobby Bonilla for Jose' De Leon.

As far as other Hawk moves:

Acquired Wayne Tolleson and Dave Schmidt from the Rangers for Scott Fletcher and two minor leaguers, Nov. 24, 1985.

Acquired Joe Cowley and Ron Hassey from the Yankees for Britt Burns and two minor leaguers, December 12, 1985.

Signed pitcher Dave Wehrmeister as a free agent, January 21, 1985.

Acquired Neil Allen and Scott Bradley from the Yankees for Ron Hassey and three minor leaguers, Feb. 13, 1986.

Also signed as free agents Tony Brizzolara, Nick Capra, Bryan Clark, Steve McCatty and Brian Giles.

Gag.....

Also just FYI, the reason Hawk went back to the Yanks for a year after the debacle is that according to Uncle Jerry himself, he cound not simply put Hawk back in the broadcasting booth. The feelings were to strong from the fans and some cooling off time was needed.

Lip

Brian26
01-28-2005, 09:36 PM
Acquired Joe Cowley and Ron Hassey from the Yankees for Britt Burns and two minor leaguers, December 12, 1985.

This was a great trade. Burns never even pitched for the Yankees. Hassey went back to NY and then came right back here and lasted a few years. Cowley pitched decent in '86 for us.

hose
01-28-2005, 09:36 PM
He wasn't flatout terrible. His year as GM was more controversial than anything, but it wasn't necessarily bad. He made some decent moves. He rocked the boat too- and that's why people were so negative about it.

Hawk ran LaRussa out of town, traded a budding star in Bonilla for Jose Deleon, and traded one of my favorite players Scott Fletcher for nothing.

Paulwny
01-28-2005, 09:50 PM
This was a great trade. Burns never even pitched for the Yankees. Hassey went back to NY and then came right back here and lasted a few years. Cowley pitched decent in '86 for us.

If I remember correctly, in one of the inseason trades for Hassey, he reported to the sox and informed them that the pain in his knees was so intense he couldn't catch.

I don't know if Hawk was responsible for the condition of the minor league teams. I attended a Buffalo Bison , Sox AAA team, late in the season Steve Lyons had to play ss and Tommy Thompson a catcher had to play 2nd, they were the only players available because Hawk was constantly moving players up and down and around the entire system. After this season the Bisons signed on with Pit not wanting to go through this experience again.

santo=dorf
01-28-2005, 09:56 PM
Hawk was a walking disaster. From Fisk in left field, to prompting the firing of LaRussa (and actively negotiating with Billy Martin before LaRussa was let go...) to trading Bobby Bonilla for Jose' De Leon.

As far as other Hawk moves:

Acquired Wayne Tolleson and Dave Schmidt from the Rangers for Scott Fletcher and two minor leaguers, Nov. 24, 1985.

Acquired Joe Cowley and Ron Hassey from the Yankees for Britt Burns and two minor leaguers, December 12, 1985.

Signed pitcher Dave Wehrmeister as a free agent, January 21, 1985.

Acquired Neil Allen and Scott Bradley from the Yankees for Ron Hassey and three minor leaguers, Feb. 13, 1986.

Also signed as free agents Tony Brizzolara, Nick Capra, Bryan Clark, Steve McCatty and Brian Giles.

Lip, did you (or anyone else) read the guy's blog?

Traded a player to be named later, Ed Correa (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/correed01.shtml), and Scott Fletcher (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fletcsc01.shtml) to the Texas Rangers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/1985.shtml). Received Wayne Tolleson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tollewa01.shtml) and Dave Schmidt (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schmida01.shtml). The Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1985.shtml) sent Jose Mota (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/motajo01.shtml) (December 11, 1985) to the Texas Rangers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/1985.shtml) to complete the trade.
Many complained that Harrelson was giving away a prime prospect in Ed Correa for Wayne Tolleson. The truth is that Correa had an OK 1986 - he was about a league-average starter, had a terrible 1987, and never pitched again. Fletcher was expendable at shortstop with Ozzie Guillen taking the helm with his Rookie-of-the-Year 1985 season, but did go on to have 3 good seasons (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fletcsc01.shtml) in Texas in 86, 87, and 88 (here are his lines- .300/.360/.400, .287/.358/.374, .276/.364/.328).

Tolleson actually did not perform too poorly with the Sox. He managed a .350 OBP, but showed little power. Dave Schmidt, however, was a prize in the deal. Although the Sox traded him after 1986, he really performed well for the Sox - a 3.31 ERA in 93 innings, with an ERA+ of 130. For some reason, Schmidt was released at the end of 1986 - and he went on to have two more decent years in Baltimore before fading away.

Call this trade a draw at worst.

Traded Britt Burns (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/burnsbr01.shtml), Glen Braxton (minors), and Mike Soper (minors) to the New York Yankees (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1985.shtml). Received Ron Hassey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hassero01.shtml) and Joe Cowley (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cowlejo01.shtml).
This was the Mike Sirotka deal of its time. Burns never pitched after the 1985 season. Cowley won 11 games and threw a no-hitter for a terrible 1986 White Sox club. Larry Himes then spun Cowley off for Gary Redus the next year - and Cowley bombed in Philly.

Hawk steals the Yankees blind. Good deal.
Traded Ron Hassey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hassero01.shtml), Matt Winters (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wintema01.shtml), Chris Alvarez (minors), and Eric Schmidt (minors) to the New York Yankees (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1986.shtml). Received Neil Allen (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/allenne01.shtml), Scott Bradley (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bradlsc01.shtml), Glen Braxton (minors), and cash.
Hassey, who had been picked up for Burns in the prior deal, is now spun back to the Yankees for Neil Allen, who pitched pretty well for the 1986 Sox - going 7-2 with a 3.88 ERA (an ERA+ of 113). Matt Winters did nothing for the Yankees. Scott Bradley however, would be critical to a later deal.

Another minor victory for the Hawk.

How about Hawk trading Scott Bradley for Ivan Calderon?

Brian26
01-28-2005, 09:57 PM
If I remember correctly, in one of the inseason trades for Hassey, he reported to the sox and informed them that the pain in his knees was so intense he couldn't catch.

:hawk

"Hassey, your WHAT hurts? Get your BE-HIND out there! I ain't got any other options with Pudge in leftfield. Mercy."

Brian26
01-28-2005, 09:58 PM
How about Hawk trading Scott Bradley for Ivan Calderon?

Hell of a trade, IMHO.

Brian26
01-28-2005, 09:59 PM
I attended a Buffalo Bison , Sox AAA team, late in the season Steve Lyons had to play ss

Just giving him a nice warm-up for the day in the future when he would play all 9 positions in one game. In fact, maybe that was the inspiration behind it! :D:

Lip Man 1
01-28-2005, 10:01 PM
Dorf:

With respect...please don't talk to me about OBP, XYZ and all the other stat geek nonsense. It's a waste of time and not baseball.

Here's the only 'number' that matters...what was the Sox record in 1985 compared to their record in 1986?

And as a follow up how far back did Hawk set the organization? How many years did it take for Himes to rebuild it?

I repeat Hawk was a disaster completely in over his head.

Lip

santo=dorf
01-28-2005, 10:02 PM
Dorf:

With respect...please don't talk to me about OBP, XYZ and all the other stat geek nonsense. It's a waste of time and not baseball.

Here's the only 'number' that matters...what was the Sox record in 1985 compared to their record in 1986?

And as a follow up how far back did Hawk set the organization? How many years did it take for Himes to rebuild it?

I repeat Hawk was a disaster completely in over his head.

Lip

Just curious Lip, what kind of payroll constraints did Hawk have as GM?

Lip Man 1
01-28-2005, 10:04 PM
That wasn't an issue. It was the time of collusion. As far as Uncle Jerry's new found 'fiscal responsibility' that went into effect according to my research for the 76 page story on him after the 1984 season.

Didn't seem to hurt Roland Hemond that much in 1985 did it?

Lip

hose
01-28-2005, 10:12 PM
Dorf:

With respect...please don't talk to me about OBP, XYZ and all the other stat geek nonsense. It's a waste of time and not baseball.

Here's the only 'number' that matters...what was the Sox record in 1985 compared to their record in 1986?

And as a follow up how far back did Hawk set the organization? How many years did it take for Himes to rebuild it?

I repeat Hawk was a disaster completely in over his head.

Lip

BINGO you nailed it Lip, excellent post.

TDog
01-28-2005, 10:20 PM
...
And as a follow up how far back did Hawk set the organization? How many years did it take for Himes to rebuild it?...

We agree about Hawk being a disaster as a GM. I'm sure we disagree about some details.

Larry Himes wasn't a good GM, but he looked great after Harrelson. Himes mostly rebuilt the team with high draft picks made possible by the Sox being so bad -- thanks in large part to Harrelson. Himes' strength was as a scout, a judge of talent. His major problem was that he couldn't work well with people. That is why after his tour as Cubs GM Himes has mostly worked (when he has worked in baseball) in a scouting capacity.

As bad as Harrelson was, he was probably unfairly criticized for moving Fisk to left. Tony LaRussa was quoted in newspaper stories that season as saying the move was his idea.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2005, 10:25 PM
According to Rich Lindberg in his books, the Fisk experiment in left field was a Hawk Harrelson idea.

Let's try this another way.....some folks are saying that Hawk at least broke even on his deals (with the major exception being the Bonilla for DeLeon trade) the example used was Britt Burns...he never pitched again so that was a 'great' trade.

Then if Hawk made all these 'great' deals why were the Sox measurably worse in 1986 then in 1985?

If Hawk was doing well why did he resign after one season?????

Remember when PHG had this comment by Hawk on the Sox - O-Gram? "If he was two years younger I'd play him (Fisk) at third base!" Hawk made the comment in a Tribune story in March 1986 that I posted here at WSI.

And remember this is the same guy who last year said Garland was going to win 18 games and Harris would be one of the best second baseman Hawk had ever seen...LOL

Lip

shbart
01-28-2005, 10:46 PM
Hawk did o.k. in trades, but it was a plethora of mediocre players, thereby a mediocre team at best. The Fisk "experiment" was definitely Hawks idea. Yes, Hawk was definitely in over his head. The team might have been slightly better if Fisk went along with the move, but knowing Fisk's personality and the weight he threw around in the clubhouse, Hawk should have realized he needed to drop the Catcher to LF conversion. That fiasco helped a mediocre team perform even worse.
I remember doing interviews in Sarasota that spring and what was surprising was that Hawk loved getting on the field and being "one of the boys". I still remember him wearing a "Save the Booter" T-Shirt in honor of Marc Hill, hitting fungos with a cig hanging from his mouth...priceless. What was kind sad about the demise was that the papers reported that as the season progressed Hawk felt alienated and was not seen in the front office very often. As a side note, LaRussa's popularity had waned after the team fell so dramatically from '83, Hawk can only take part of the credit for Tony's exit. I think the '84 team gets some credit too.

slavko
01-28-2005, 11:27 PM
Hawk was in his glory in those "Hawk Wants You" ads at the start of the season and became a reclusive, defeated wretch well before the season ended.

markopat
01-28-2005, 11:44 PM
Short Answer....yes

Fake Chet Lemon
01-29-2005, 12:06 AM
Hawk was a BRUTAL GM. He had this theory on "live arms". We gotta stockpile guys with "live arms". But none of them could pitch! He thought he could outsmart everyone on pitching talent based on his "live arm" theory. He was in WAY over his head and other GMs took advantage of him. And let's not even discuss firing LaRussa.

ondafarm
01-29-2005, 12:11 AM
I think Hawk is a better annoucer than he was a GM.

I think he is equally bad.

StillMissOzzie
01-29-2005, 12:59 AM
This was a great trade. Burns never even pitched for the Yankees. Hassey went back to NY and then came right back here and lasted a few years. Cowley pitched decent in '86 for us.

Yes, I remember that Cowley pitched a no-hitter that wasn't a shutout! IIRC, he walked the bases loaded and gave up a sac fly, earning himself the nickname of Dr. No ( instead of No-No, for no runs on no hits ).

SMO
:gulp:

Quote:
Traded Britt Burns (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/burnsbr01.shtml), Glen Braxton (minors), and Mike Soper (minors) to the New York Yankees (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1985.shtml). Received Ron Hassey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hassero01.shtml) and Joe Cowley (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cowlejo01.shtml).
This was the Mike Sirotka deal of its time. Burns never pitched after the 1985 season. Cowley won 11 games and threw a no-hitter for a terrible 1986 White Sox club. Larry Himes then spun Cowley off for Gary Redus the next year - and Cowley bombed in Philly.

Hawk steals the Yankees blind. Good deal.
Quote:
Traded Ron Hassey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hassero01.shtml), Matt Winters (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wintema01.shtml), Chris Alvarez (minors), and Eric Schmidt (minors) to the New York Yankees (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1986.shtml). Received Neil Allen (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/allenne01.shtml), Scott Bradley (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bradlsc01.shtml), Glen Braxton (minors), and cash.
Hassey, who had been picked up for Burns in the prior deal, is now spun back to the Yankees for Neil Allen, who pitched pretty well for the 1986 Sox - going 7-2 with a 3.88 ERA (an ERA+ of 113). Matt Winters did nothing for the Yankees. Scott Bradley however, would be critical to a later deal.

Another minor victory for the Hawk
Edit:
Who was this minor leaguer Glen Braxton who the Sox traded along with Britt Burns to NY and then got back from NY along with Neil Allen & Scott Bradley?

SMO
:?:

TDog
01-29-2005, 02:18 AM
According to Rich Lindberg in his books, the Fisk experiment in left field was a Hawk Harrelson idea....

I agree that Ken Harrelson may been the worst general manager of his era. I don't even like him as an announcer. But when Tony LaRussa was asked by reporters how he felt about being forced to play Fisk in left field, he told them it was his idea. I read the Rich Lindberg books, but I also read the daily AP stories about the Sox from that summer. Harrelson may have wanted Fisk in the outfield, but even without Harrelson as GM, Sox fans in the left-field grandstand likely would have seen Fisk's back on defense.

In seasons before Harrelson's as GM, LaRussa played Fisk sparingly in the outfield at first and at third. He said he believed Fisk would have a longer career if he came out from behind the plate.

It was clearly a bad idea. That doesn't mean a good manager couldn't have shared it with a bad GM.

Steelrod
01-29-2005, 05:17 AM
Lets see. Drove LaRussa out of town, angred Fisk, drove Paciorek out of town. 3 for 3. Case closed!

idseer
01-29-2005, 09:09 AM
maybe someone else remembers this better than i do, but didn't he also make a statement about how over-rated the minors were and proceed to decimate our system?

TornLabrum
01-29-2005, 09:17 AM
Another thing Hawk did was hire a bunch of guys to spring training as coaches. Unfortunately all of these guys operated independently of each other and ended up giving contradictory instructions to the players. Hawk was an unmitigated disaster.

Maximo
01-29-2005, 09:35 AM
Once again ask and ye shall receive:

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.

Hawk was a walking disaster. From Fisk in left field, to prompting the firing of LaRussa (and actively negotiating with Billy Martin before LaRussa was let go...) to trading Bobby Bonilla for Jose' De Leon.

As far as other Hawk moves:

Acquired Wayne Tolleson and Dave Schmidt from the Rangers for Scott Fletcher and two minor leaguers, Nov. 24, 1985.

Acquired Joe Cowley and Ron Hassey from the Yankees for Britt Burns and two minor leaguers, December 12, 1985.

Signed pitcher Dave Wehrmeister as a free agent, January 21, 1985.

Acquired Neil Allen and Scott Bradley from the Yankees for Ron Hassey and three minor leaguers, Feb. 13, 1986.

Also signed as free agents Tony Brizzolara, Nick Capra, Bryan Clark, Steve McCatty and Brian Giles.

Gag.....

Also just FYI, the reason Hawk went back to the Yanks for a year after the debacle is that according to Uncle Jerry himself, he cound not simply put Hawk back in the broadcasting booth. The feelings were to strong from the fans and some cooling off time was needed.

Lip

Lip:

Please tell me when the "cooling off time" ended.

Maximo
01-29-2005, 09:47 AM
Add my name to the list under the heading "Ken Harrelson was a bad GM."

So bad that I can't believe that he continues to remain a part of the White Sox family after all these years. IMO....he has added very little to the welfare of this organization, be it either from the front office or the broadcast booth.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-29-2005, 09:50 AM
Another thing Hawk did was hire a bunch of guys to spring training as coaches. Unfortunately all of these guys operated independently of each other and ended up giving contradictory instructions to the players. Hawk was an unmitigated disaster.

Yep. It's highly debatable whether Hawk was merely bad or a complete disaster with his trades, but there is no question he was a complete disaster managing the baseball side of the Sox organization. That's what a GM's job is... not just trades.
:o:

There is only one thing that is truly exceptional about Hawk Harrelson and that is the SIZE OF HIS EGO. That's what makes him suited to be a TV broadcaster, though I would debate the notion he is a good one. A "good" broadcaster makes his broadcast partners better too, and you only need to hear how much better Darrin Jackson sounds inside the Fox booth compared to Hawk's booth to know exactly what I'm talking about.

That stupid 1986 Sox pocket schedule with Hawk on the cover perfectly illustrates everything you need to know about Hawk's giant ego and why his mercifully short stint as GM was a disaster for the Sox organization. It's hardly surprising Hawk fired LaRussa... LaRussa might have been the only guy in the Sox organization with an ego big enough to match Hawk's... but LaRussa can't fire Hawk. Who here could possibly doubt the Sox would have enjoyed 10-times more success the last 19 years if LaRussa was still inside the Sox organization rather than Hawk???
:?:

You people licking Hawk's boots need to get a clue... he is good for exactly two things:

1.) Lame comedy based on fake homespun banter, and
2.) Being the official mouthpiece for Jerry Reinsdorf.

We get to know what JR is thinking just by listening to what Hawk says. That's worth something because Reinsdorf doesn't talk to the media very often. Otherwise Hawk just plains sucks. I listen to Rooney every chance I get.

SpammySosa
01-29-2005, 09:52 AM
Lets see. Drove LaRussa out of town, angred Fisk, drove Paciorek out of town. 3 for 3. Case closed!

Was Paciorek supposed to be in teal?:?:

jdm2662
01-29-2005, 09:59 AM
I was only 9 in '86, but I do remember the pocket schedule with the "The Hawk wants you". Seeing how brutual the Sox where to watch from '86-'89, I can't see how any one could say Hawk was a nothing short but a terrible GM.

As for Hawk as an announcer, he was great with Wimpy in the booth, but he's gotten worse and worse since then. I appreicate his passion about the Sox and how he cares, but he's gotten more and more annoying over the years. I might have to try the radio this year, if I don't have a huge delay on the HD signal.
________
**** Black (http://www.****tube.com/categories/767/black/videos/1)

Dan H
01-29-2005, 11:04 AM
In a large sense, Harrelson was typical Jerry Reinsdorf hire: Hawk had no executive experience before he was made GM.

I don't hold the firing of Tony LaRussa against Harrelson. LaRussa isn't the only guy who can manage the team. But what the way it happened belied Harrelson's inexperience. To actually negotiate with another man while your manager is still running the team was inexcusable. If you are going to fire someone, fire him, get an interim manager and then do your search. To turn a bad situation into a soap opera only embarrassed the organization.

Harrelson was in over his head. It was a good thing that it lasted and wasted only one season.

Tragg
01-29-2005, 11:10 AM
He traded Britt Burns for Ron Hassey; or at least he tried to a couple of times - always problems with medical clearances, but eventually it got done.
I wouldn't call that much of a trade - Burns was a good pitcher, he just got hurt. Hassey didn't do much for us. nor did Redus.

Himes was an excellent GM for the White Sox. He got a lot of good players, who were critical to the 90s resurgence, when dumping veterans (particularly Baines and Floyd Bannister). Melido, Eric King, those guys ---->they pitched us into winners, while McDowell, Fernandez and Alverez (a Himes acquisition) were getting ready to take over.

chaz171
01-29-2005, 02:29 PM
There was a huge Mess with the Britt Burns Trade. He had a hip problem that prevented him from pitching ever again and NY wanted to negate the Deal...(ALA Sirotka)

Harrelson was always held accountable for LaRussa's demise, but LaRussa's Record in 84 and 85 was not so good.

He was criticized relentlessly for dealing the Crown Jewel that was Edwin Correa. Edwin Correa was destroyed by Texas Pitching Coach Tom House. Tom House's system ruined several decent young arms in that era.

Edwin Correa was a reincarnated Francisco Barrios. No more than that. I saw him pitch in person about 4 times.

Didn't Hawk also deal Kittle to NY and Dotson as well? Dotson too had a bad flipper and Kittle looked like he ate Greg Luzinski during that phase of his DH-dom.

flo-B-flo
01-30-2005, 10:19 PM
There is only one thing that is truly exceptional about Hawk Harrelson and that is the SIZE OF HIS EGO. That's what makes him suited to be a TV broadcaster, though I would debate the notion he is a good one. A "good" broadcaster makes his broadcast partners better too, and you only need to hear how much better Darrin Jackson sounds inside the Fox booth compared to Hawk's booth to know exactly what I'm talking about. Whoa! This is a great point. DJ does sound better on the national telecasts. Huge ego goes with being an announcer. Harry was no shrinking violet. Neither was Piersall. But the Hawk comes off sometimes like he thinks he is an oracle. I don't know. Everyone trying to leave his mark like Vin Scully.

Fake Chet Lemon
01-30-2005, 10:36 PM
Hawk's field-manager talent evaulation skills have not improved much since he fired LaRussa. I managed to dial quickly and to speak with him twice on WSCR. Once in 2002 and once in 2003. I ripped JerryM to no end, but Hawk strongly defended him and blamed the players both times. Hawk had NOTHING bad to say about him, wow. But when the team is going well I really enjoy his broadcasts. When we do poorly, I hate his lack of honestly. We aren't stupid.

tacosalbarojas
01-31-2005, 12:23 AM
Hawk's field-manager talent evaulation skills have not improved much since he fired LaRussa. I managed to dial quickly and to speak with him twice on WSCR. Once in 2002 and once in 2003. I ripped JerryM to no end, but Hawk strongly defended him and blamed the players both times. Hawk had NOTHING bad to say about him, wow. But when the team is going well I really enjoy his broadcasts. When we do poorly, I hate his lack of honestly. We aren't stupid.Hawk ripped Jerry a new one - on and off air - from the time Cotts made that debacle of a start in New York in August until he was fired at the end of '03. I was in the airport the last day of the season in KC and Hawk was holding a half hour dissertation with some of us about how badly Manuel screwed that '03 team.

nccwsfan
01-31-2005, 11:56 AM
Keep in mind I was still a young'n, but I remembered feeling hopeful about the 86' team (1985 was a pretty good year for the team). It turned out to be a disaster and it did set them back a few years.

Not a memorable administration.....still love the guy though!

Brian26
01-31-2005, 02:00 PM
Hawk ripped Jerry a new one - on and off air - from the time Cotts made that debacle of a start in New York in August until he was fired at the end of '03. I was in the airport the last day of the season in KC and Hawk was holding a half hour dissertation with some of us about how badly Manuel screwed that '03 team.

Right- I think Hawk was generally supportive of JM up until the 2003 season. At some point during the season, **** started to fly, and the Cotts/Buehrle fiasco at Yankee Stadium was the straw that broke the camel's back. Hawk let his true feelings come out on the air right after that.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-31-2005, 02:15 PM
Right- I think Hawk was generally supportive of JM up until the 2003 season. At some point during the season, **** started to fly, and the Cotts/Buehrle fiasco at Yankee Stadium was the straw that broke the camel's back. Hawk let his true feelings come out on the air right after that.

Ahem... that was Reinsdorf talking through his on-air Charlie McCarthy puppet. Hawk has the job because he *always* toes the party line.

The surest sign Manuel was out was after Hawk started bad-mouthing him. Manuel knew it, too. That whole month of September was like a funeral procession.

SOXSINCE'70
01-31-2005, 02:45 PM
Ahem... that was Reinsdorf talking through his on-air Charlie McCarthy puppet. Hawk has the job because he *always* toes the party line.

The surest sign Manuel was out was after Hawk started bad-mouthing him. Manuel knew it, too. That whole month of September was like a funeral procession.

Absolutely.Remember the Jose Paniagua fiasco?? Now that was a
major reason that September seemed like a funeral procession.
After splitting those 4 games with the Twinks,the Sox cashed it in
and quit.It showed on the field.The fans aren't that stupid.

On another topic,I had no problems with Hawk's bombastic
"homer" style of announcing until 2003.That's when he began
refering to the team as "our Sox" (whose Sox?? I have no minor
or major stock in this team),the pregnant pauses (like when Belly
Crotch would walk in a run or give up a game winning 3 run HR to
Carl Crawford) and the whole "He Gawn" thing started.:(:

Jerome
01-31-2005, 03:02 PM
I think he is equally bad.

Me too. (shhhhhh) Don't tell anyone else around here.

Moses_Scurry
01-31-2005, 03:26 PM
I couda sworn it was Ron Kittle and Joel SKinner for Ron Hassey. Maybe that was a different offseason.

FireReinsdorf
01-31-2005, 04:00 PM
The Sox traded for Hassey multiple times (like once wasn't enough). The most disgusting of the deals involved Kittle.

tacosalbarojas
01-31-2005, 11:34 PM
I couda sworn it was Ron Kittle and Joel SKinner for Ron Hassey. Maybe that was a different offseason.
Moses Scurry...awesome moniker. Tark out-Tarked himself when he brought that kid to campus. Remember the poolside scene? Dirtiest thing in the UNLV program this side of Richie Adams.