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View Full Version : Rants about Harris and a bunch of unrelated stuff


delben91
01-27-2005, 07:05 AM
Article in the Southtown (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/271sd1.htm) today.

Seems to say he wants out, then backs off the statement, then says it again...bottom line is it seems he's upset that management told him the "had plans" for him and then went and signed Iguchi.

Sufferin
01-27-2005, 07:13 AM
The biggest hit you had last year was on Magglio's knee. Singles hitter who bat .262 and fast guys who don't steal bases don't start in the majors.

The Soc DO have a role for you. It's called the backup 2nd baseman/CF/pinch runner. Don't look at it as losing a position, look at it as gaining 3!

Oh, and if you don't like it, strap a set on and do something in spring training to MAKE Guillen put you in the starting lineup!:whiner:

Soxzilla
01-27-2005, 07:25 AM
:violin:

Just for you Willie.

jabrch
01-27-2005, 07:56 AM
If we could get something good enough for him, I am sure KW is trying to accomodate that request.

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 08:01 AM
Cry me a river.

I sure hope some other club will send us a utility infielder for Harris. His attitude sucks.

voodoochile
01-27-2005, 08:08 AM
Later Willie... You won't be needed or missed at this rate.

I agree about the utility IF trade, but with Willie's "potential" the Sox might be able to get more for him. Work a package deal and get some prospects...

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 08:10 AM
Later Willie... You won't be needed or missed at this rate.

I agree about the utility IF trade, but with Willie's "potential" the Sox might be able to get more for him. Work a package deal and get some prospects...

Works for me. I just hope KW doesn't hang on to him too long (like Borchard) where they can't even get a bag of BP balls for him.

JUribe1989
01-27-2005, 08:12 AM
Wow, Willie sure talks tough for someone who doesn't deserve a starting spot on any team in the league. We don't need you Willie, you can't run the bases for someone that fast. If you are gonna have this bad of an attitude than sayonara. I can name a hundred infielders that I would rather have than you.

Realist
01-27-2005, 08:13 AM
Looks like Willie has completed his mail-order "Rick White and Scott Schoeneweis's How to Win Friends and Influence People" course.

I imagine that Ozzie and Kenny are about as impressed with Willie's attitude as I am. :bs: Read between the lines of what Ozzie and Kenny have been saying about Harris. I'm getting that they believe that Harris has a bunch of talent and a poor attitude. Unless Willie is being taken way out of context in this article, he's full of crap. He may have the potential to be a very good player, but he ain't earned nothin' yet.

Maybe Dale Tallon will take him off the Sox's hands for a couple of broken sticks and a used puck bag.

JUribe1989
01-27-2005, 08:14 AM
Looks like Willie has completed his mail-order "Rick White and Scott Schoeneweis's How to Win Friends and Influence People" course.

I imagine that Ozzie and Kenny are about as impressed with Willie's attitude as I am. :bs: Read between the lines of what Ozzie and Kenny have been saying about Harris. I'm getting that they believe that Harris has a bunch of talent and a poor attitude. Unless Willie is being taken way out of context in this article, he's full of crap. He may have the potential to be a very good player, but he ain't earned nothin' yet.

Maybe Dale Tallon will take him off the Sox's hands for a couple of broken sticks and a used puck bag.

It's a known fact that Ozzie doesn't like Willie at all anyways. I think KW will be glad to ship him out. Let's go out and get a back-up who won't bitch and moan about a starting job that they don't deserve.

DrCrawdad
01-27-2005, 08:31 AM
Willie no matter what the Sox told you, their actions over the last two years should have told you everything you needed to know. They've brought in Robbie Alomar twice as a replacement for you. The Sox have zero confidence in you.

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 08:31 AM
Are there any teams out there that absolutely need a second baseman?

34 Inch Stick
01-27-2005, 08:37 AM
When we traded for him the word was that he had great speed but average talent that he made up for with an incredible work ethic. That sounds like a manger's dream. I wonder if the work ethic has changed. Having a little bit of a flashy attitude should not be a problem for Ozzie as that was exactly the type of player that he was.

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 08:48 AM
When we traded for him the word was that he had great speed but average talent that he made up for with an incredible work ethic. That sounds like a manger's dream. I wonder if the work ethic has changed. Having a little bit of a flashy attitude should not be a problem for Ozzie as that was exactly the type of player that he was.

:?:

Ozzie wasn't an *******.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 08:51 AM
Didn't we just have a discussion a few days ago about Willie's attitude?

And that was just from seeing him at Soxfest...

Mickster
01-27-2005, 08:59 AM
Read between the lines of what Ozzie and Kenny have been saying about Harris. I'm getting that they believe that Harris has a bunch of talent and a poor attitude.

Someone on this board has been saying this for quite some time. Where is she? :dunno:

Malgar 12
01-27-2005, 09:06 AM
The biggest hit you had last year was on Magglio's knee. Singles hitter who bat .262 and fast guys who don't steal bases don't start in the majors.

The Soc DO have a role for you. It's called the backup 2nd baseman/CF/pinch runner. Don't look at it as losing a position, look at it as gaining 3!

Oh, and if you don't like it, strap a set on and do something in spring training to MAKE Guillen put you in the starting lineup!:whiner:

Right on Brother, this love affair with Willie 'I never saw a weak ground out to second base I didnt like' Harris has got to stop. He is was and always has been a MARGINAL talent. Period. He wants out! Good Riddance.

SoxFanTillDeath
01-27-2005, 09:14 AM
I totally agree. I was actually excited about seing Willie play this year, but not anymore. What a jagbag. Get a clue Willie...you stink.

Harris = :dtroll:

crazyozzie02
01-27-2005, 09:16 AM
This guy has been around for quite a while and still hasnt produced. I was mad when they made the trade for him, and at the same time giving up Chris Singleton, and at least he hit for the cycle. I believe we still would have a better place for Chris on this team than Willie.

Later Willie! :angry:

Baby Fisk
01-27-2005, 09:19 AM
This guy has been around for quite a while and still hasnt produced. I was mad when they made the trade for him, and at the same time giving up Chris Singleton, and at least he hit for the cycle. I believe we still would have a better place for Chris on this team than Willie.

Later Willie! :angry:

A first post full of disappointment, second-guessing and anger. You will fit right in! Welcome aboard! :cool:

Clembasbal
01-27-2005, 09:19 AM
We might be able to get something for him, because he is not paid a lot at all. But we are not going to get prospects, maybe a prospect. Maybe a utility IF, like a Tony Beakanino. We will see what plays out, but for a guy to complain about this team, a team that has been built around speed, and togetherness...is plain out terrible.

mweflen
01-27-2005, 09:23 AM
Hmmm... total chump, bad attitude, outrageous sense of entitlement, gross overestimation of his own abilities...

Sounds like what I've been saying about him since I met him before Soxfest last year!

Good call comparing Willie to Scott Shoenewhine and Rick Blight.

Goodbye Willie, we hardly knew ye, and thank goodness for that:booty:.

SoxFan78
01-27-2005, 09:32 AM
Hey Willie,

Maybe if you would of put up the numbers two years ago, the Sox never would had to pick up Juan Uribe.

Maybe if you would of put up the numbers last year, the Sox wouldnt have to pick up Iguchi this year.

See a trend?

PicktoCLick72
01-27-2005, 09:34 AM
We could trade him for Mike Caruso.

AZChiSoxFan
01-27-2005, 09:49 AM
You want out Willie??

:sopranos

OG4LIFE
01-27-2005, 09:51 AM
The biggest hit you had last year was on Magglio's knee.

LMAO....

Lip Man 1
01-27-2005, 09:52 AM
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of town Willie. Lip

beckett21
01-27-2005, 09:53 AM
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of town Willie. Lip

I think I agree with you on something Lip! :redneck

AZChiSoxFan
01-27-2005, 09:54 AM
Are there any teams out there that absolutely need a second baseman?

Why do you ask? We don't have a SECOND BASEMAN to trade away.

And NO, I didn't mean to put that in teal!!

tsamdog
01-27-2005, 09:55 AM
The thread could almost be an extension of the previous future of Willie exposition. Most posters agreed that the key to Willie's future rested on his attitude, which has now manifested itself quite clearly. It's time for KW to do his thing, once again. I agree that a package is necessary and that another utility IF is the need (SS arm and range).

I guess the question is who can we package. Borchard's stock is definitely at a all-time low, but a good ST may help. I am not sure what a Harris/Borchard package could bring now, but in March.....

AZChiSoxFan
01-27-2005, 09:56 AM
This guy has been around for quite a while and still hasnt produced. I was mad when they made the trade for him, and at the same time giving up Chris Singleton, and at least he hit for the cycle. I believe we still would have a better place for Chris on this team than Willie.

Later Willie! :angry:

:welcome:

Hangar18
01-27-2005, 10:07 AM
Willie is Far too valuable on our bench to just get rid of him.
Someone needs to talk to him and straighten his head out ....namely an
Aaron Rowand.

When I saw Rowand at SoxFest and they had just
announced the signing of Kenny Lofton, I told him not to hang his
head, the CF job would be his soon enough, to just tough it out
(pretty prophetic on my part I would say heh heh) and he agreed
and said he wasnt going to Worry, he said it was all good, and that
he would just work just as hard and be ready whenever they needed him....
He displayed an Excellent attitude right away about the incident.

I think someone needs to tell South Side Willie the same thing ......

Brian26
01-27-2005, 10:13 AM
Willie is Far too valuable on our bench to just get rid of him.
Someone needs to talk to him and straighten his head out ....namely an
Aaron Rowand.

When I saw Rowand at SoxFest and they had just
announced the signing of Kenny Lofton, I told him not to hang his
head, the CF job would be his soon enough, to just tough it out
(pretty prophetic on my part I would say heh heh) and he agreed
and said he wasnt going to Worry, he said it was all good, and that
he would just work just as hard and be ready whenever they needed him....
He displayed an Excellent attitude right away about the incident.

I think someone needs to tell South Side Willie the same thing ......

Steff- Is Jim available for some more Willie counseling???

Hangar18
01-27-2005, 10:19 AM
Hmmm... total chump, bad attitude, outrageous sense of entitlement, gross overestimation of his own abilities...




I also think South Side Willie might be a bit misunderstood. You'll have
that on teams all the time, the key is for the MANAGER to get the most
out of what talent IS THERE, and thats his speed. I cant help but think
what Phil Jackson (from the bulls days) would do if he had this guy on his
team ......... he'd get the most out of him and get him on the same page ....
I hope Ozz gives him an alternately good talking to ..... we need him on
the bench, and we get Weaker if we just get rid of him for nothing ......

shoot, Give me 30 mins with him, i'll get him on the page ..........

mweflen
01-27-2005, 10:23 AM
I also think South Side Willie might be a bit misunderstood. You'll have
that on teams all the time, the key is for the MANAGER to get the most
out of what talent IS THERE, and thats his speed. I cant help but think
what Phil Jackson (from the bulls days) would do if he had this guy on his
team ......... he'd get the most out of him and get him on the same page ....
I hope Ozz gives him an alternately good talking to ..... we need him on
the bench, and we get Weaker if we just get rid of him for nothing ......

shoot, Give me 30 mins with him, i'll get him on the page ..........

I have yet to see a convincing argument (i.e. from Willie's performance, not his mouth) that he could not just as well be subbed for by a guy from AAA like Wilson Valdez. And Valdez can play Short, too. That seems more valuable to me right now than a guy with a big mouth and a small stick who won't run but wants to play every day.

Addition by subtraction.

24thStFan
01-27-2005, 10:24 AM
[QUOTE=Hangar18]Willie is Far too valuable on our bench to just get rid of him.
Someone needs to talk to him and straighten his head out

I agree, and who here wouldn't be upset if you found out your job had been handed to someone else ? Why not give Willie a fair chance to compete for the job? He said he's been working hard in the offseason and he's willing to go all out in Spring training to show what he's done. Let's see how Willie does before we kick him out the door.

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 10:26 AM
[QUOTE=Hangar18]Willie is Far too valuable on our bench to just get rid of him.
Someone needs to talk to him and straighten his head out

I agree, and who here wouldn't be upset if you found out your job had been handed to someone else ? Why not give Willie a fair chance to compete for the job? He said he's been working hard in the offseason and he's willing to go all out in Spring training to show what he's done. Let's see how Willie does before we kick him out the door.

If I wasn't meeting expectations at my workplace I would expect that they would be looking ofr a replacment. Especially if they had given me so many chances.

Nick@Nite
01-27-2005, 10:30 AM
Willie is Far too valuable on our bench to just get rid of him.
Someone needs to talk to him and straighten his head out ....namely an
Aaron Rowand.

I agree that someone needs to talk to Willie, and Rowand wouldn't be a bad place to start since Aaron is a teammate. But I was thinking that the person who should tell Willie to get a clue is Rock Raines.

Rock needs to tell Willie that fast banjo hitting second baseman who can't steal bases (very well) don't last long in MLB.

I get the feeling that people close to Willie (probably the hanger-on-types) tell him he's the next best best thing since Joe Morgan. If that's the case, Willie needs to borrow Frank's DBTH shower shoes.
(DBTH = Don't Believe The Hype).

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 10:32 AM
Keep in mind this story was written by the same guy who brought us the "Carlos Lee was a clubhouse cancer" story. Taking quotes and putting them together out of context does not sound out of the question. If Willie is just saying that he wants a fair chance to compete, what's wrong with that? Nowhere in the story did I see him say that he thought he was "entitled" to anything other than a fair shot. My attitude would be the same: either give me a fair shot to compete or if you don't want me, then trade me.

I think the handwriting's on the wall and Willie can see it. He's not in their plans.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 10:42 AM
Someone on this board has been saying this for quite some time. Where is she? :dunno:

Yea, ever since we aquired him from Baltimore...

I read her comments on this situation elsewhere. They were exactly what I expected. :cool:

Hangar18
01-27-2005, 10:42 AM
Keep in mind this story was written by the same guy who brought us the "Carlos Lee was a clubhouse cancer" story. Taking quotes and putting them together out of context does not sound out of the question. If Willie is just saying that he wants a fair chance to compete, what's wrong with that? Nowhere in the story did I see him say that he thought he was "entitled" to anything other than a fair shot. My attitude would be the same: either give me a fair shot to compete or if you don't want me, then trade me.



Good Point. I cant help but think he may have been rushed up here too,
seeing we got him fresh after dumping Ray Durham ......

mweflen
01-27-2005, 10:47 AM
Good Point. I cant help but think he may have been rushed up here too,
seeing we got him fresh after dumping Ray Durham ......

may have been?

MisterB
01-27-2005, 10:56 AM
I have yet to see a convincing argument (i.e. from Willie's performance, not his mouth) that he could not just as well be subbed for by a guy from AAA like Wilson Valdez. And Valdez can play Short, too. That seems more valuable to me right now than a guy with a big mouth and a small stick who won't run but wants to play every day.

Addition by subtraction.

If "Iggy" (no 'Goochie' for me) is the starting 2B in '05, Valdez would be my choice because he can back up both middle IF positions, and would likely get so little playing time that the offensive dropoff from Harris (and yes, Valdez would be an offensive dropoff from Harris over any significant length of time) wouldn't make much difference.

24thStFan
01-27-2005, 11:03 AM
[QUOTE=Hangar18]I also think South Side Willie might be a bit misunderstood. You'll have
that on teams all the time, the key is for the MANAGER to get the most
out of what talent IS THERE

I also think that Ozzie doesn't know how to handle Willie. They don't speak the same language--literally and figuratively. Ozzie and Willie come from very different backgrounds--maybe what we really have here is a failure to communicate.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 11:03 AM
Keep in mind this story was written by the same guy who brought us the "Carlos Lee was a clubhouse cancer" story. Taking quotes and putting them together out of context does not sound out of the question. If Willie is just saying that he wants a fair chance to compete, what's wrong with that? Nowhere in the story did I see him say that he thought he was "entitled" to anything other than a fair shot. My attitude would be the same: either give me a fair shot to compete or if you don't want me, then trade me.

I think the handwriting's on the wall and Willie can see it. He's not in their plans.

Trading for Robbie Alomar twice, Uribe and now getting Iguchi I think it's pretty clear (and has been) they don't have much confidence in him as a starter...

mweflen
01-27-2005, 11:05 AM
If "Iggy" (no 'Goochie' for me) is the starting 2B in '05, Valdez would be my choice because he can back up both middle IF positions, and would likely get so little playing time that the offensive dropoff from Harris (and yes, Valdez would be an offensive dropoff from Harris over any significant length of time) wouldn't make much difference.

Are you thinking Valdez will be unable to hit .260 for no power in the bigs? If he is, boom you've replaced Willie right there and gained flexibility (without losing speed, because speed which won't run is worse than useless). After watching Vadez in albeit limited ABs, it's apparent he has some clue at the plate, and can hit lefties oh, I don't know, a zillion times better?

The Sox obviously are investing in Gucci. 2 years and an option - they believe in his ability to hit .260 with some power. Also an upgrade over Harris.

So let's see: option 1, upgrade over Harris. Option 2, upgrade over Harris.

He gone!

bestkosher
01-27-2005, 11:09 AM
If you haveever seen the South Park movie, the Saddam song, " I can change"
Would fit willie perfectly.

Kogs35
01-27-2005, 11:13 AM
bye willie enjoy the minors. u never wanted to listen to the sox coaches

1917
01-27-2005, 11:25 AM
Are you thinking Valdez will be unable to hit .260 for no power in the bigs? If he is, boom you've replaced Willie right there and gained flexibility (without losing speed, because speed which won't run is worse than useless). After watching Vadez in albeit limited ABs, it's apparent he has some clue at the plate, and can hit lefties oh, I don't know, a zillion times better?

The Sox obviously are investing in Gucci. 2 years and an option - they believe in his ability to hit .260 with some power. Also an upgrade over Harris.

So let's see: option 1, upgrade over Harris. Option 2, upgrade over Harris.

He gone!

I think we should call him "The Gouch" like that guy who used to beat up Arnold in Diferent Strokes

duke of dorwood
01-27-2005, 11:25 AM
He Stinks

Jamieboy
01-27-2005, 11:37 AM
People seem to think we've grabbed an allstar in Iguchi. I was all for his signing, and hope he plays well, but lets not kid our selves, this guy hasn't played major ball before. Everybody seems to think a guy finds out he's been replaced, and he's supposed to be all smiles. Kaz Matsui was much more highly regarded player last year than Iguchi is this year, and Matsui was a very avg player last year. I'm just saying there's no reason to be hasty just because a player makes a couple of comments to one beat writer. As far as I'm concerned, there really is no good reason to trade Willie? Club house cancer, of course not. He's a talented player, and could contribute highly if utilized correctly by Ozzie.

SOXFAN82
01-27-2005, 11:45 AM
http://www.mopsquad.com/artman/uploads/harris.jpg "I SMELL CAREER YEAR"

SOXFAN82
01-27-2005, 11:49 AM
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/MLB/2004/08/24/m082494A.jpg "JUAN YOU SEE .300 AVERAGE AINT HARD FOLLOW MY LEAD"

Jerko
01-27-2005, 11:50 AM
http://www.mopsquad.com/artman/uploads/harris.jpg "I SMELL CAREER YEAR"

Did the ball already hit the wall in that picture or did he get THAT bad of a jump?

mcfish
01-27-2005, 11:53 AM
I also think South Side Willie might be a bit misunderstood. You'll have
that on teams all the time, the key is for the MANAGER to get the most
out of what talent IS THERE, and thats his speed. I cant help but think
what Phil Jackson (from the bulls days) would do if he had this guy on his
team ......... he'd get the most out of him and get him on the same page ....
I hope Ozz gives him an alternately good talking to ..... we need him on
the bench, and we get Weaker if we just get rid of him for nothing ......

shoot, Give me 30 mins with him, i'll get him on the page ..........I can't believe the only voice of reason in the first 2 1/2 pages of this thread is coming from Hangar. Jesus people, Iguchi hasn't even played a game in America yet and we are already dumping our only back up plan? Not to mention the fact that we have no other infielders worth anything on the bench at all. The only way Willie could go is if we find the perfect ultility infielder who can play all three positions, be happy in a backup role, and hit better than Willie. That's going to be easy to find.

voodoochile
01-27-2005, 11:56 AM
I can't believe the only voice of reason in the first 2 1/2 pages of this thread is coming from Hangar. Jesus people, Iguchi hasn't even played a game in America yet and we are already dumping our only back up plan? Not to mention the fact that we have no other infielders worth anything on the bench at all. The only way Willie could go is if we find the perfect ultility infielder who can play all three positions, be happy in a backup role, and hit better than Willie. That's going to be easy to find.

If a guy who is riding the bench decides he wants to be a starter, it can seriously hurt a team's chemistry (see Nomar in Boston in 2004). Harris doesn't have such amazing ability and talent that he can afford to be a whiner and the Sox don't need him so badly that they cannot afford to take their chances elsewhere.

Harris wants to go? I say let him walk...

mcfish
01-27-2005, 11:56 AM
[QUOTE=24thStFan]

If I wasn't meeting expectations at my workplace I would expect that they would be looking ofr a replacment. Especially if they had given me so many chances.Have you ever had to work after receiving the equivalence of a leg injury for a teacher? Do you think you would be as good? Maybe your performance would suffer too.

Teachers are great people - just trying to say that Willie was playing hurt last year.

Malgar 12
01-27-2005, 12:00 PM
Willie is Far too valuable on our bench to just get rid of him.
Someone needs to talk to him and straighten his head out ....namely an
Aaron Rowand.

When I saw Rowand at SoxFest and they had just
announced the signing of Kenny Lofton, I told him not to hang his
head, the CF job would be his soon enough, to just tough it out
(pretty prophetic on my part I would say heh heh) and he agreed
and said he wasnt going to Worry, he said it was all good, and that
he would just work just as hard and be ready whenever they needed him....
He displayed an Excellent attitude right away about the incident.

I think someone needs to tell South Side Willie the same thing ......

There's only one problem with your thinking, Rowand has talent and Wee-Willie does not.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 12:01 PM
By the way, one of Willie's quotes:
I just want a fair chance to challenge this guy.What an attitude.
"I feel like I've accomplished a lot this offseason, but now I don't know if I'll get to show it. I'm upset because it does say, 'They don't believe in you, Willie.' When am I going to get a chance to get at-bats after at-bats after at-bats, instead of sporadic at bats? That's all I'm asking."Sounds to me like his initial reaction to having his team that he has been working for make a trade to replace him. Did any of you actually read the article? I'm sorry someone was jilted at Sox Fest, but come on... This is not that bad.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 12:02 PM
There's only one problem with your thinking, Rowand has talent and Wee-Willie does not.Raise your hand if you thought Rowand had talent last off-season. I should be seeing about 10 hands - myself not included, as I wanted to send him down to Charlotte just like 90% of everyone else around here.

soxrme
01-27-2005, 12:05 PM
Article in the Southtown (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/271sd1.htm) today.

Seems to say he wants out, then backs off the statement, then says it again...bottom line is it seems he's upset that management told him the "had plans" for him and then went and signed Iguchi.

What ever happened to COMPETING for a job! Lazy ass.:angry:

SOXFAN82
01-27-2005, 12:05 PM
I hope willie does prove us wrong...I'm just joking around with the pic and captions.... i hope for the best....

Brian

alohafri
01-27-2005, 12:06 PM
Article in the Southtown (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/271sd1.htm) today.

Seems to say he wants out, then backs off the statement, then says it again...bottom line is it seems he's upset that management told him the "had plans" for him and then went and signed Iguchi.

This tells me that Mr. Harris is not a team player. If it was me, anyone you can get that will help me get the World Series ring is fine by me...even if it means less playing time for me.

MisterB
01-27-2005, 12:07 PM
Are you thinking Valdez will be unable to hit .260 for no power in the bigs? If he is, boom you've replaced Willie right there and gained flexibility (without losing speed, because speed which won't run is worse than useless). After watching Vadez in albeit limited ABs, it's apparent he has some clue at the plate, and can hit lefties oh, I don't know, a zillion times better?

The Sox obviously are investing in Gucci. 2 years and an option - they believe in his ability to hit .260 with some power. Also an upgrade over Harris.

So let's see: option 1, upgrade over Harris. Option 2, upgrade over Harris.

He gone!

Looking at the minor league numbers for both, their BAs were comparable, but Valdez stole less often, drew walks less often, and had even less power. (apparently it IS possible to have less power than Willie) If we're talking strictly backup with maybe 125 ab over the course of the season, I'm fine with him on sheer defensive ability. If for some reason Iguchi had to miss any extended amount of playing time due to injury, I'd actually prefer Harris to fill in for him, but I don't think that's likely at all. Basically Valdez's offensive value is nothing, but Harris can't back up SS, so in this situation I'll take Valdez.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 12:08 PM
What ever happened to COMPETING for a job! Lazy ass.:angry:Read the article, that's all he said he wanted to do. Lazy ass.:angry:

Malgar 12
01-27-2005, 12:09 PM
Raise your hand if you thought Rowand had talent last off-season. I should be seeing about 10 hands - myself not included, as I wanted to send him down to Charlotte just like 90% of everyone else around here.

Raising away! I continue to be amazed that ANYBODY sees ANYTHING resembling MLB talent in Willie Harris! The Rowand last year analogy does not wash. Rowand, in every level headed mind, was worthy of a 4th Outfielder spot without question. Harris can't even get on base to do the one thing he could potentially do well, which is steal a bag. Harris makes me cringe, Rowand never has.

Jamieboy
01-27-2005, 12:15 PM
Raise your hand if you thought Rowand had talent last off-season. I should be seeing about 10 hands - myself not included, as I wanted to send him down to Charlotte just like 90% of everyone else around here.

Exacty. A lot of hypocrits around here. You can't tell me you all were a fan of having Rowand start in CF last year. I was dying for a trade. In fact, in May, I was begging for Mags to be traded for Atlanta for Andruw Jones, BEGGING for it. If possible, I'd still like get him, won't happen, but just saying. Anyhow, lets just be honest folks. Iguchi is not proven. So far Rowand has had one real good year. Crede needs to improve. Uribe needs to be consistent. Konerko needs to hit on the road. Pods needs to get his avg up. Dye needs a solid year. Everett needs to perform to his old standards. Big Frank needs to be healthy early, and hopefully return to form. We need at leas 20 starts out of El Duque. Contreras needs to flash his talent consistently. This season is far from guarenteed.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 12:15 PM
Raising away! I continue to be amazed that ANYBODY sees ANYTHING resembling MLB talent in Willie Harris! The Rowand last year analogy does not wash. Rowand, in every level headed mind, was worthy of a 4th Outfielder spot without question. Harris can't even get on base to do the one thing he could potentially do well, which is steal a bag. Harris makes me cringe, Rowand never has.So that's why his nickname was AAAron. We all didn't want to send him to Charlotte. That's it. :rolleyes:

Maybe we saw more potential in him, but we were saying the exact same things about Aaron last year.

And I see a Willie Harris who was hitting over .300 last year when he got hurt in a collision that took the other person out for the year (maybe career), and he never seemed to fully recover. And I see Iguchi as a player that has never played in America. I hope, just like everyone else, that Iguchi works out and puts up huge numbers and we never have to worry about this again. But until then, why don't we keep our best replacement option around?

mweflen
01-27-2005, 12:17 PM
Raise your hand if you thought Rowand had talent last off-season. I should be seeing about 10 hands - myself not included, as I wanted to send him down to Charlotte just like 90% of everyone else around here.

My hand is raised. I've always sung Rowand's praises. (I am not claiming some special intelligence here, my hunch was just right) He just seemed to play the game the right way, and seemed to have a clue at the plate.

OTOH, Willie...

SOXFAN82
01-27-2005, 12:18 PM
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/mlb/players/4/67/6798.jpg " SO I MAKE YOU CRINGE HUH"

"LOOK AT WHAT I DID LAST YEAR"
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/MLB/2004/09/01/m090220A.jpg

Malgar 12
01-27-2005, 12:21 PM
So that's why his nickname was AAAron. We all didn't want to send him to Charlotte. That's it. :rolleyes:

Maybe we saw more potential in him, but we were saying the exact same things about Aaron last year.

And I see a Willie Harris who was hitting over .300 last year when he got hurt in a collision that took the other person out for the year (maybe career), and he never seemed to fully recover. And I see Iguchi as a player that has never played in America. I hope, just like everyone else, that Iguchi works out and puts up huge numbers and we never have to worry about this again. But until then, why don't we keep our best replacement option around?

Not we, you. Rowand even has prominent spot in the Wallpaper I designed before last season started see, the WSI photo archives for evidence! :smile:

mcfish
01-27-2005, 12:23 PM
Not we, you. Rowand even has prominent spot in the Wallpaper I designed before last season started see, the WSI photo archives for evidence! :smile:Not me, 90% of WSI. You might be in the 10%, along with Awesomefan, who has always loved Aaron Rowand, but you were definitely in the minority last year.

Malgar 12
01-27-2005, 12:27 PM
Not me, 90% of WSI. You might be in the 10%, along with Awesomefan, who has always loved Aaron Rowand, but you were definitely in the minority last year.

My point is you can't play the hypocrisy card to try and change the subject. (At least not with me.) Willie Harris sucks, independent of the question of whether or not Aaron Rowand was falsely accused of Suckiness.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 12:34 PM
My point is you can't play the hypocrisy card to try and change the subject. (At least not with me.) Willie Harris sucks, independent of the question of whether or not Aaron Rowand was falsely accused of Suckiness.Not trying to use a "hypocrisy card." I could care less who changes their opinion when. I know I changed my opinion about Rowand. It's not hypocricy, it's new evidence. Maybe some new evidence will come out about Willie this year if he plays better. Is that impossible? Am I the only one who remembers Willie batting over .300 more than a month into the season before he got hurt and had a horrible 2 months while being injured and playing sporadically and in rotating positions?

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 12:38 PM
Raise your hand if you thought Rowand had talent last off-season. I should be seeing about 10 hands - myself not included, as I wanted to send him down to Charlotte just like 90% of everyone else around here.*raises hand*
One of them is mine, for which I took untold **** last off-season. Someone please show me where in the article Willie says he is "entitled" to anything. He wants a chance to compete for the job. How unreasonable.

zach074
01-27-2005, 12:42 PM
I think he could easily win the job.

Corlose 15
01-27-2005, 12:42 PM
Just throwing out some stats here

Rowand 01 AB 123 Avg. .293
02 AB 302 Avg. .258
03 AB 157 Avg. .287
04 AB 487 Avg. .310
Career 1069 .290

Harris 01 AB 24 Avg. .125
02 AB 163 Avg. .233
03 AB 137 Avg. .204
04 AB 409 Avg. .262
Career 733 .240

I felt going into last year that Rowand would be ok in center field, I thought that given the PT he played well when he got the chance. He also wasn't fully recovered from his accident in the beginning of '03 (I believe). I have/had much more confidence in Rowand than Harris.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 12:52 PM
By the way, one of Willie's quotes:
What an attitude.
Sounds to me like his initial reaction to having his team that he has been working for make a trade to replace him. Did any of you actually read the article? I'm sorry someone was jilted at Sox Fest, but come on... This is not that bad.

Did he miss the other three times they made a trade to replace him???

Why is he complaining about it now?

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 12:54 PM
Not trying to use a "hypocrisy card." I could care less who changes their opinion when. I know I changed my opinion about Rowand. It's not hypocricy, it's new evidence. Maybe some new evidence will come out about Willie this year if he plays better. Is that impossible? Am I the only one who remembers Willie batting over .300 more than a month into the season before he got hurt and had a horrible 2 months while being injured and playing sporadically and in rotating positions?

Was he really injured all that badly?

I don't remember hearing about that collision affecting his performance. Maybe he just had a really good month and then came back down to earth??

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 12:57 PM
[QUOTE=Palehose13]Have you ever had to work after receiving the equivalence of a leg injury for a teacher? Do you think you would be as good? Maybe your performance would suffer too.

Teachers are great people - just trying to say that Willie was playing hurt last year.

So what is the excuse before that? Willie has been given a chance time and time again. His assett is his speed, but he can't steal a base. He can't hit lefties. He has shown that at best he is a platoon player...with a rotten attitude.

idseer
01-27-2005, 12:59 PM
Raise your hand if you thought Rowand had talent last off-season. I should be seeing about 10 hands - myself not included, as I wanted to send him down to Charlotte just like 90% of everyone else around here.

:Rocker:

by the way, mcfish, i agree with you. i think his remarks have been blown WAAAAyyyy out of propotion.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:01 PM
Was he really injured all that badly?

I don't remember hearing about that collision affecting his performance. Maybe he just had a really good month and then came back down to earth??Now that we have another second baseman (and considering Willie makes very little), can we assume that the injury did affect his play and then if he shows nothing this year we can assume that it wasn't the injury and we can get rid of him instead of dumping him now before we find out?

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:03 PM
So what is the excuse before that? Willie has been given a chance time and time again. His assett is his speed, but he can't steal a base. He can't hit lefties. He has shown that at best he is a platoon player...with a rotten attitude.He was hitting .300+ before that and the SB% was higher.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 01:11 PM
Now that we have another second baseman (and considering Willie makes very little), can we assume that the injury did affect his play and then if he shows nothing this year we can assume that it wasn't the injury and we can get rid of him instead of dumping him now before we find out?

Or we could trade him for a true utility infielder that wouldn't mind coming in off the bench and can play all 3 infield positions instead of one that can only play one of the infield positions and would be unhappy sitting on the bench.

Even if his numbers did improve a little bit (and he's got plenty of room for improvement) they aren't paying all that money to Iguchi to make him a back-up...

mweflen
01-27-2005, 01:12 PM
Just throwing out some stats here

Rowand 01 AB 123 Avg. .293
02 AB 302 Avg. .258
03 AB 157 Avg. .287
04 AB 487 Avg. .310
Career 1069 .290

Harris 01 AB 24 Avg. .125
02 AB 163 Avg. .233
03 AB 137 Avg. .204
04 AB 409 Avg. .262
Career 733 .240

I felt going into last year that Rowand would be ok in center field, I thought that given the PT he played well when he got the chance. He also wasn't fully recovered from his accident in the beginning of '03 (I believe). I have/had much more confidence in Rowand than Harris.

Great stats. This is why I was thinking Aaron would do well in 04 - I figured he'd hit .275 with minor power based on his previous short stints. Of course I was overjoyed when he had the year he did.

Willie OTOH never showed me much. He was practically an automatic out for 2 partial seasons, and last year he was only goo in a platoon.

ON2, the sense of entitlement becomes apparent when he says he's upset the Sox have found another option - the unspoken assumption being that he was doing an adequate job that didn't deserve to be replaced. He wasn't. He was half a player, if that (sucked agains lefties, wouldn't steal). To believe he was shows his sense of entitlement. BS'ing about how his playing time was negatively impacting his stats? Willie, had Oz put you in against lefties and gotten you 150 more ABs, your average would have been .230, not 262. What an effin' chump.

He also made all the same comments about "All the work he's done in the offseason" last year, saying he was "the most prepared member of the team" (comment from last year's soxfest).

Of course he should be allowed to compete for a spot. Excuse me while I don't hold my breath waiting for Willie to bust out.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 01:12 PM
Now that we have another second baseman (and considering Willie makes very little), can we assume that the injury did affect his play and then if he shows nothing this year we can assume that it wasn't the injury and we can get rid of him instead of dumping him now before we find out?It's not just how much he makes but if you can afford to use a roster spot on him. Forget Cowley's article. Regardless of what you think of him, it's pretty clear that he's not in the Sox future plans. I'd say it's almost a lock he'll be traded. The only question is when. The smart thing to do would be to hold onto him for a while until Iguchi has shown he can handle playing in MLB - no sure thing. But I'm sure KW is shopping him, and if a good deal presents itself, you have to grab it. If not, they will have a spare roster spot until Thomas comes back.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:14 PM
Or we could trade him for a true utility infielder that wouldn't mind coming in off the bench and can play all 3 infield positions instead of one that can only play one of the infield positions and would be unhappy sitting on the bench.

Even if his numbers did improve a little bit they aren't paying all that money to Iguchi to make him a back-up...Like I said before, if you can find the magical backup that plays all 3 positions, hits better than Willie, and would be happy to sit on the bench, by all means trade for him. Unfortunately, even if you find him, I don't think that the team he currently plays for is going to be too keen on trading him.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 01:18 PM
Like I said before, if you can find the magical backup that plays all 3 positions, hits better than Willie, and would be happy to sit on the bench, by all means trade for him. Unfortunately, even if you find him, I don't think that the team he currently plays for is going to be too keen on trading him.

Well currently they don't have a backup for SS and 3rd so KW better be doing something.

I don't follow the minor leagues much but their may be somebody down there...

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 01:19 PM
Great stats. This is why I was thinking Aaron would do well in 04 - I figured he'd hit .275 with minor power based on his previous short stints. Of course I was overjoyed when he had the year he did.

Willie OTOH never showed me much. He was practically an automatic out for 2 partial seasons, and last year he was only goo in a platoon.

ON2, the sense of entitlement becomes apparent when he says he's upset the Sox have found another option - the unspoken assumption being that he was doing an adequate job that didn't deserve to be replaced. He wasn't. He was half a player, if that (sucked agains lefties, wouldn't steal). To believe he was shows his sense of entitlement. BS'ing about how his playing time was negatively impacting his stats? Willie, had Oz put you in against lefties and gotten you 150 more ABs, your average would have been .230, not 262. What an effin' chump.

He also made all the same comments about "All the work he's done in the offseason" last year, saying he was "the most prepared member of the team" (comment from last year's soxfest).

Of course he should be allowed to compete for a spot. Excuse me while I don't hold my breath waiting for Willie to bust out.Don't put words in his mouth and don't let Cowley. Go back to the article, take out Cowley's words and just read what Willie said. He NEVER said he was entitled to anything. When you read what he actually said and not Cowley's spin, what I get is that he's not happy that they're continually trying to replace him (who would be?) and he wants to have a fair chance to compete. "If this team doesn't have plans for me, why not go ahead and get rid of me?" I have no problem with any of it.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:21 PM
He also made all the same comments about "All the work he's done in the offseason" last year, saying he was "the most prepared member of the team" (comment from last year's soxfest).

Of course he should be allowed to compete for a spot. Excuse me while I don't hold my breath waiting for Willie to bust out.And he hit .300+ for more than the first month of the season before he collided with Maggs. "Most prepared?" Maybe not. Prepared? I'd say so. Assuming the injury hurt his performance significantly and he has worked hard to recover - he should be able to hit pretty well this year. Assuming it didn't and he sucks - it'll be readily apparent all too soon. Why not wait until then to ship him out of town and not put him up on the stake for saying "I just want a fair chance to challenge this guy."

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:25 PM
Well currently they don't have a backup for SS and 3rd so KW better be doing something.

I don't follow the minor leagues much but their may be somebody down there...I completely agree that we need to backup Crede, but trading Willie for saying that he is upset about the lack of faith White Sox management has shown themselves to have in him is not the way to do it. If they really can find someone to take Willie in a trade for someone better than Willie (plays 3 pos, doesn't mind being backup, hits better than Willie), then pull the trigger. I just don't see that player on the market. And if he is there, then it's going to cost more than Willie and it would probably open up another hole on the team to fill a backup role.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 01:26 PM
And he hit .300+ for more than the first month of the season before he collided with Maggs. "Most prepared?" Maybe not. Prepared? I'd say so. Assuming the injury hurt his performance significantly and he has worked hard to recover - he should be able to hit pretty well this year. Assuming it didn't and he sucks - it'll be readily apparent all too soon. Why not wait until then to ship him out of town and not put him up on the stake for saying "I just want a fair chance to challenge this guy."

I don't think he's going to get that chance no matter what he does. Iguchi is already penciled in as the starting 2b. They still need a utility infielder. Once they get one, what role will Willie have on the team?

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:28 PM
I don't think he's going to get that chance no matter what he does. Iguchi is already penciled in as the starting 2b. They still need a utility infielder. Once they get one, what role will Willie have on the team?Backup to the guy who has never played Major League Baseball before.

Paulwny
01-27-2005, 01:28 PM
It's not just how much he makes but if you can afford to use a roster spot on him. Forget Cowley's article. Regardless of what you think of him, it's pretty clear that he's not in the Sox future plans. I'd say it's almost a lock he'll be traded. The only question is when. The smart thing to do would be to hold onto him for a while until Iguchi has shown he can handle playing in MLB - no sure thing. But I'm sure KW is shopping him, and if a good deal presents itself, you have to grab it. If not, they will have a spare roster spot until Thomas comes back.

Agree, unless a good deal comes along, unlikely, why trade him ? Let's find out how Iguchi handles the change to the US culture and baseball. The sox may find a better deal at the break when some contenders may have to replace an injured player and then we could obtain another teams prospect.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 01:29 PM
I completely agree that we need to backup Crede, but trading Willie for saying that he is upset about the lack of faith White Sox management has shown themselves to have in him is not the way to do it.

Willie wants a chance to prove himself. Was telling the media the way to do it?

I'm sure he has Ozzie and KW's phone numbers...

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:32 PM
Willie wants a chance to prove himself. Was telling the media the way to do it?

I'm sure he has Ozzie and KW's phone numbers...Maybe Cowley called Willie and asked for a statement. I can't speculate that Willie went running to the media, especially after Cowley's Carlos Lee story.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 01:33 PM
Backup to the guy who has never played Major League Baseball before.

I think at worst, Iguchi will be able to at least match Willie's career numbers...

IMHO

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 01:34 PM
Maybe Cowley called Willie and asked for a statement. I can't speculate that Willie went running to the media, especially after Cowley's Carlos Lee story.

He could have declined.

But he's got too big of an ego to do that...

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:36 PM
I think at worst, Iguchi will be able to at least match Willie's career numbers...

IMHOI think that too. Still hasn't happened yet though. And Willie could improve upon his career numbers, which would be better Iguchi's worst. Maybe they'll both succeed and we'll have the problem of having two good second basemen. Maybe one will suck so much that we have to cut him. We don't know. Don't give away your options, not before the season at least.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 01:39 PM
He could have declined.

But he's got too big of an ego to do that...Who doesn't have an ego in sports? Who cares about his ego if he can hit the ball? And if he can't, we'll know soon enough.

:tomatoaward

BigDon77
01-27-2005, 01:39 PM
If Willie wants to prove himself, there's no better time than now. Iguchi looks real good on paper, but we still have to see how he makes the transfer. Shingo was not even in the mix for the early part of last season, and look how he turned out. Maybe the Iguchi signing will finaly push Willie to show some of this great talent we are always hearing about. If he doesn't improve and isn t on board with the team philosphy then HE GONE!!!!

spawn
01-27-2005, 01:41 PM
I agree, and who here wouldn't be upset if you found out your job had been handed to someone else ? Why not give Willie a fair chance to compete for the job? He said he's been working hard in the offseason and he's willing to go all out in Spring training to show what he's done. Let's see how Willie does before we kick him out the door.

Sure, I'd be upset if I lost my job to someone else. But here's the rub: Willie hasn't earned that spot at second since he's been here. As someone else stated here earlier: we traded for Alomar twice because Willie couldn't consistently do the job. And I'm sorry, but if i'm gonna lose my job to someone, it won't be without a fight. Instead of opening his mouth, he should've kept quiet and prove he deserves to start during ST. Aaron Rowand never let this type of situation get to him. And maybe KW didn't want to trade him...but I'll bet he does now. It's hard to be a unified team if you go mouthing off to the press before ST even starts!:angry:

mweflen
01-27-2005, 01:42 PM
"Why did I struggle last year? I didn't play," Harris said. "Now people are going to say, 'You got over 400 at-bats (409 total) last year.' But it's when you get those at-bats. They were sporadic.

"I feel like I've accomplished a lot this offseason, but now I don't know if I'll get to show it. I'm upset because it does say, 'They don't believe in you, Willie.' When am I going to get a chance to get at-bats after at-bats after at-bats, instead of sporadic at bats? That's all I'm asking."

ON2,

Unless Cowley is completely fabricating the quote, it sounds like Willie doesn't quite know which fit he is pitching.

Does he want:

1. a chance to compete for the spot in ST,

or

2. is he entitled to more than 400 ABs "at the right time" during a competitive MLB season?

It sure sounds like Door No. 2 to me.

I agree with you that he is worth using a roster spot on. .260 with pinch running (but not base stealing) ability is valuable. I just don't think he's worth a roster spot with this attitude.

spawn
01-27-2005, 01:42 PM
I think at worst, Iguchi will be able to at least match Willie's career numbers...

IMHO

It won't take much to do that...

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 01:45 PM
Who doesn't have an ego in sports? Who cares about his ego if he can hit the ball? And if he can't, we'll know soon enough.

:tomatoaward

He plays centerfield and went through almost the exact same situation Willie is in right now...

Hangar18
01-27-2005, 01:45 PM
My hand is raised. I've always sung Rowand's praises. (I am not claiming some special intelligence here, my hunch was just right) He just seemed to play the game the right way, and seemed to have a clue at the plate.

OTOH, Willie...

SAME HERE, Ive always been in Rowands corner ........

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 01:52 PM
ON2,

Unless Cowley is completely fabricating the quote, it sounds like Willie doesn't quite know which fit he is pitching.

Does he want:

1. a chance to compete for the spot in ST,

or

2. is he entitled to more than 400 ABs "at the right time" during a competitive MLB season?

It sure sounds like Door No. 2 to me.

I agree with you that he is worth using a roster spot on. .260 with pinch running (but not base stealing) ability is valuable. I just don't think he's worth a roster spot with this attitude.
Where does the word "entitled" or anything like it appear? If you look at Rowand when he was riding the bench behind Lofton, he didn't hit for squat. It wasn't until Lofton got traded that he blossomed. Young players usually don't do well with sporadic playing time.

In the same situation, Rowand kept his mouth shut and played. I'll bet if he had said what he was thinking it wouldn't have been that different. Conclusion: Rowand is smarter than Willie. So what. Being smart has never been a prerequisite to being a ballplayer. If Willie was smart, he would have stuck to his chiches: "I'm just happy to be here..." But he's not the first guy who didn't know when to shut up.

mweflen
01-27-2005, 02:08 PM
Where does the word "entitled" or anything like it appear?

ON2,

I am not arguing that Willie used the word entitled, or that Cowley did. I am saying it's a reasonable extrapolation from Willie's actual quoted statements. Whining about the timing of your 409 AB's in a year smacks of a sense of entitlement, especially when you hit .181 against lefties.

When it comes from the mouth of someone like Big Frank (who IIRC actually has used the word in a publicly recorded sentence), you can shake you head and say "well, it's a stupid thing to say, but he's right, based on his rocord."

When it comes from someone like Willie, you shake your head and say "I hope there's a Greyhound out of town scheduled every 5 minutes, so he has no trouble packing up and getting out of Dodge."

The comparison to Rowand is not apt. When Lofton was here, Rowand hit .258 in 302 AB's without whining. Willie hit .262 in 409 AB, with whining, not to mention time off for injury.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 02:17 PM
ON2,

I am not arguing that Willie used the word entitled, or that Cowley did. I am saying it's a reasonable extrapolation from Willie's actual quoted statements. Whining about the timing of your 409 AB's in a year smacks of a sense of entitlement.

When it comes from the mouth of someone like Big Frank (who IIRC actually has used the word in a publicly recorded sentence), you can shake you head and say "well, it's a stupid thing to say, but he's right, based on his rocord."

When it comes from someone like Willie, you shake your head and say "I hope there's a Greyhound out of town scheduled every 5 minutes, so he has no trouble packing up and getting out of Dodge."But that's just it. You're putting words in his mouth (extrapolating), then complaining about them. He believes he would do better with regular playing time and wants to get it. What's wrong with that? I'd be disappointed if he thought anything else. Do you honestly think Aaron Rowand wasn't thinking the exact same thing when he was playing behind Lofton? The only difference was that Rowand was smart enough to keep it to himself.

mweflen
01-27-2005, 02:17 PM
From KW's press conference today.

"Tadahito is one of Japan's premier infielders, both offensively and defensively, and he immediately strengthens our lineup and the middle of our infield," Williams said. "He was one of the top defensive second basemen in Japan, and his offensive numbers rank among the Japanese League leaders. As a middle infielder, Tadahito has shown that rare ability to hit for average, get on base, run the bases well, hit with power and drive in runs."

Sound a lot UNlike someone we all know?

mweflen
01-27-2005, 02:18 PM
But that's just it. You're putting words in his mouth (extrapolating), then complaining about them. He believes he would do better with regular playing time and wants to get it. What's wrong with that? I'd be disappointed if he thought anything else. Do you honestly think Aaron Rowand wasn't thinking the exact same thing when he was playing behind Lofton? The only difference was that Rowand was smart enough to keep it to himself.

The point is, Willie is factually wrong when he believes his level of play warrants more consistent playing time. 400 AB is too much for a platoon hitter to receive.

voodoochile
01-27-2005, 02:19 PM
ON2,

I am not arguing that Willie used the word entitled, or that Cowley did. I am saying it's a reasonable extrapolation from Willie's actual quoted statements. Whining about the timing of your 409 AB's in a year smacks of a sense of entitlement.

When it comes from the mouth of someone like Big Frank (who IIRC actually has used the word in a publicly recorded sentence), you can shake you head and say "well, it's a stupid thing to say, but he's right, based on his rocord."

When it comes from someone like Willie, you shake your head and say "I hope there's a Greyhound out of town scheduled every 5 minutes, so he has no trouble packing up and getting out of Dodge."

The comparison to Rowand is not apt. When Lofton was here, Rowand hit .258 in 302 AB's without whining. Willie hit .262 in 409 AB, with whining, not to mention time off for injury.

The continuation of that and the other side of his "409 sporadic at bats" comment is that he can't hit lefties (.181, .224, .264, .488 OPS (Lord, that's awful)). He got 337 of his 409 at bats against RHP - the only pitching he seems to be able to hit. So, it might be sporadic but it's also heavily weighted to his strengths.

His value as a pinch hitter is dramatically decreased by these stats as he becomes simply a decoy to get the other team to put in a LHP whenever he gets announced.

Willie's value is as a platoon player. If he isn't going to be one, he isn't worth much. A designated late inning PR who can field one poistion effectively just isn't worth having on the team - whether he does it willingly, grudgingly or whines up a storm matters little to the equation.

mweflen
01-27-2005, 02:21 PM
Willie's value is as a platoon player. If he isn't going to be one, he isn't worth much. A designated late inning PR who can field one poistion effectively just isn't worth having on the team - whether he does it willingly, grudgingly or whines up a storm matters little to the equation.

Megadittos.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 02:28 PM
The point is, Willie is factually wrong when he believes his level of play warrants more consistent playing time. 400 AB is too much for a platoon hitter to receive.To have any chance of success, a young ballplayer HAS to have tremendous self-confidence. Even cockiness. He's SUPPOSED to think he has HOF potential, if he just gets a chance to show what he can do. They all do. He's just committed a breach of protocol in saying so publicly. I just don't see what's the big deal.

mweflen
01-27-2005, 02:32 PM
To have any chance of success, a young ballplayer HAS to have tremendous self-confidence. Even cockiness. He's SUPPOSED to think he has HOF potential, if he just gets a chance to show what he can do. They all do. He's just committed a breach of protocol in saying so publicly. I just don't see what's the big deal.

We have evidence to the contrary, however. So does Willie. He knows his stats last year, he proved that in the article. How can anyone with those stats think he deserves more than 400 AB's in a season? Answer: sense of entitlement.

That's the extrapolation I was mentioning. :smile:

ja1022
01-27-2005, 02:33 PM
I'm not much of a Willie fan and I hope, and I stress hope, they got an upgrade in Gooey-son, but I've read the article a couple of times now and I don't see the big deal. Seems to me that Willie's big mistake here is talking on the record to a reporter. Honestly, how is he supposed to feel about it? I, for one, am glad he's pissed about this and wants to compete for the job. I'd be more concerned if he wasn't pissed. Should he have kept his mouth shut? Yes. Is he wrong for feeling this way? Hell no.

And by the way, what if Iguchi sucks? What then? Wilson Valdez? Scary. Very scary.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 02:36 PM
The continuation of that and the other side of his "409 sporadic at bats" comment is that he can't hit lefties (.181, .224, .264, .488 OPS (Lord, that's awful)). He got 337 of his 409 at bats against RHP - the only pitching he seems to be able to hit. So, it might be sporadic but it's also heavily weighted to his strengths.

His value as a pinch hitter is dramatically decreased by these stats as he becomes simply a decoy to get the other team to put in a LHP whenever he gets announced.

Willie's value is as a platoon player. If he isn't going to be one, he isn't worth much. A designated late inning PR who can field one poistion effectively just isn't worth having on the team - whether he does it willingly, grudgingly or whines up a storm matters little to the equation.Jose Valentin had a pretty nice career and he couldn't hit lefites, either. I think there's a good chance Willie will continue to improve and will become a decent major-league player. But the fact is, the Sox just can't afford to wait for him. If the roster was unlimited, he could hang around and learn, but with the reality of the 25-man roster, they just can't afford the roster spot for both him and Iguchi.

So while I seem to have a higher opinion of his chances than you do, I agree that he's probably got to go.

Mohoney
01-27-2005, 02:40 PM
Jose Valentin had a pretty nice career and he couldn't hit lefites, either. I think there's a good chance Willie will continue to improve and will become a decent major-league player. But the fact is, the Sox just can't afford to wait for him. If the roster was unlimited, he could hang around and learn, but with the reality of the 25-man roster, they just can't afford the roster spot for both him and Iguchi.

So while I seem to have a higher opinion of his chances than you do, I agree that he's probably got to go.

I don't see how we can keep him. Maybe Kenny can make one more splashy trade, setting a package up around Garland and Harris for another good starting pitcher.

voodoochile
01-27-2005, 02:43 PM
Jose Valentin had a pretty nice career and he couldn't hit lefites, either. I think there's a good chance Willie will continue to improve and will become a decent major-league player. But the fact is, the Sox just can't afford to wait for him. If the roster was unlimited, he could hang around and learn, but with the reality of the 25-man roster, they just can't afford the roster spot for both him and Iguchi.

So while I seem to have a higher opinion of his chances than you do, I agree that he's probably got to go.

Well, we've come to a concensus, so no need to go on, but I will anyway... :D:

Even last year when he was falling apart, showing his age and swinging for the fences, Jose managed to put up an OPS of .666 against lefties (yeah, it's bad, but not nearly as horrible as Willie). I don't have his career splits, but I seriously doubt it is even close to as bad as Willie's.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 02:43 PM
We have evidence to the contrary, however. So does Willie. He knows his stats last year, he proved that in the article. How can anyone with those stats think he deserves more than 400 AB's in a season? Answer: sense of entitlement.

That's the extrapolation I was mentioning. :smile:Again. Where did he say he "deserves" more than 400 AB? You're putting words in his mouth again. He clearly WANTS more playing time. And he clearly thinks he'd have done better if he had more regular playing time. Now you're extrapolating from an extrapolation.

D. TODD
01-27-2005, 03:00 PM
Willie beleives he is the best man for the job. He feels that the club doubts him, and this is evident in the signing of Iguchi. He wants to have the oppurtunity to prove his worth, and if he is not in the plans at all he would rather go elsewhere and earn his playing time. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT! Everyone is junmping down his throat for beleiving in his ability, and wanting to be the everyday player. Hell, thats what he along with every other player should want and work for. The comparisons to Rowand do have some merit, if only for the fact that Rowand put up similar numbers in a back-up role. He also had many doubters to his ability as a everyday player, especially after his Evil Kneviel impersonation in the off season. Don't make too much out of a nothing story about a player wanting to keep his spot in the starting line-up. Wow what a scoop for the Southtown!

AZChiSoxFan
01-27-2005, 03:01 PM
Where does the word "entitled" or anything like it appear? If you look at Rowand when he was riding the bench behind Lofton, he didn't hit for squat. It wasn't until Lofton got traded that he blossomed. Young players usually don't do well with sporadic playing time.

In the same situation, Rowand kept his mouth shut and played. I'll bet if he had said what he was thinking it wouldn't have been that different. Conclusion: Rowand is smarter than Willie. So what. Being smart has never been a prerequisite to being a ballplayer. If Willie was smart, he would have stuck to his chiches: "I'm just happy to be here..." But he's not the first guy who didn't know when to shut up.

Totally agree, especially the part about young players with sporadic PT. Some players won't blossom when they are always looking over their shoulder and wondering if they'll get yanked from the lineup the first time they have two bad games in a row. I'm really hoping that Iguchi comes through, but I worry about putting all our eggs in the basket of a guy who has yet to make his major league debut.

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:02 PM
Again. Where did he say he "deserves" more than 400 AB? You're putting words in his mouth again. He clearly WANTS more playing time. And he clearly thinks he'd have done better if he had more regular playing time. Now you're extrapolating from an extrapolation.

"I feel like I've accomplished a lot this offseason, but now I don't know if I'll get to show it. I'm upset because it does say, 'They don't believe in you, Willie.' When am I going to get a chance to get at-bats after at-bats after at-bats, instead of sporadic at bats? That's all I'm asking."

Statements like this, as well as "I'm a grown man," "don't feed me from a long spoon" (whatever that means) have colored the tone of my extrapolation of Willie's attitude, as has my having met the guy personally and getting the distinct impression he thinks his $#!* don't stink.

My impression is that he feels he deserves 'better treatment.' This is solely my interpretation, not Cowley's, Harris' or anyone elses.

Is it stupid to speculate on the motivations of a ballplayer? Perhaps. :redneck But I'm bored at work, and I really dislike the guy. :smile:

So I'll close my daily ragging on Harris with that. Unless someone else says something that piques my interest in doing it again. Which they probably will. :D:

Chisox003
01-27-2005, 03:11 PM
Bring back Tony G!

:graff

Start up the "Go Get Em" Campaigns again...

maurice
01-27-2005, 03:12 PM
This is why I love WSI. You get the fanatical (aka "fan"), knee-jerk reaction to a development, followed quickly by a reasoned response.

IMHO, no Sox player should ever speak to Cowley, who repeatedlty has done his best to paint any story / player as negatively as possible. For this reason, Harris should not have spoken with Cowley. Nonetheless, I don't disagree with anything Harris said. The Rowand analogy is spot on. (The Sox and 95% of this board didn't want to start Rowand, but they had no other choice when Maggs went down and Borchard sucked.) However, speaking the truth often gets folks into big trouble. As others have mentioned, it's often best for a player to stick to cliches or ****.

In any event, my opinion hasn't changed. I expect that Harris will become at least a fine platoon 2b. However, with the Iguchi signing, there is little chance that will happen with the Sox (notwithstanding their recent BSing to the contrary). Since he doesn't qualify as a utility IF, Harris' primary value to the Sox is as insurance for Iguchi, given the not insignificant chance that he gets injured or doesn't produce in MLB. However, it probably is not feasible to keep him on the roster all season for a number of reasons. I'm sure KW has been working the phones all week.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 03:14 PM
Statements like this, as well as "I'm a grown man," "don't feed me from a long spoon" (whatever that means) have colored the tone of my extrapolation of Willie's attitude, as has my having met the guy personally and getting the distinct impression he thinks his $#!* don't stink.

My impression is that he feels he deserves 'better treatment.' This is solely my interpretation, not Cowley's, Harris' or anyone elses.

Is it stupid to speculate on the motivations of a ballplayer? Perhaps. :redneck But I'm bored at work, and I really dislike the guy. :smile:It's obvious you dislike the guy. And I think maybe your dislike has led you to infer stuff that isn't there. He thinks he can do better if he gets the opportunity. All young ballplayers think that, good ones and bad ones alike. And if he's not going to get the opportunity here, he'd rather go somewhere else where he will. Can't blame him for that. He's almost certainly going to get his wish. He was probably on the launching pad already. This just seals it.

BTW, I couldn't figure out what being fed from a long spoon meant, either.:?: Must be a Cairo, GA expression.:tongue:

bafiarocks03
01-27-2005, 03:14 PM
You guys are so mean! Willie is right! I agree with him! He should be the one out there everyday at 2nd! I would be upset to if i was in his positon! THe only part i don't like, is him saying that if he can't play, then he wants to leave! That's just not an option! He can't leave! :(:

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:15 PM
Does Harris have any options left? I would think he does, because I don't recall him ever having been sent down. Setting aside what it might do to his ego/attitude, is sending him to Charlotte even an option?

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 03:18 PM
Does Harris have any options left? I would think he does, because I don't recall him ever having been sent down. Setting aside what it might do to his ego/attitude, is sending him to Charlotte even an option?I don't think he does. He played only 9, 49 and 79 games in the majors in 2001, 2002 and 2003. I assume that means he spent parts of those seasons in the minors. I think that does it.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 03:20 PM
I don't think he does. He played only 9, 49 and 79 games in the majors in 2001, 2002 and 2003. I assume that means he spent parts of those seasons in the minors. I think that does it.

Was that first year a September callup?

IIRC, those don't count...

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:20 PM
I am assuming "don't feed me from a long spoon" translates roughly to "don't tell me one thing (Soxfest talk, under the radar stuff) and then change it behind my back when I am far away from you (training in GA)."

Except Ozzie was ripping on Willie consistently. So maybe KW is a long spoon feeder, and Oz delivers the spanking when the short spoon makes a mess?

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:21 PM
Was that first year a September callup?

IIRC, those don't count...
looks like in 2003 he was called up in May.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 03:25 PM
and he was riding the pine during a lot of those seasons - he very feasibly could have played 79 games while being up all 162.Good point. The 9 games in 2001 were probably a Sept call-up, which wouldn't count. The 79 games were in 2003, and I'm sure he got sent down at least once that year. So he may have another year left. Even if they don't send him down, the option will strengthen Kenny's hand in any trade negotiations compared to if he was out of options.

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:27 PM
Good point. The 9 games in 2001 were probably a Sept call-up, which wouldn't count. The 79 games were in 2003, and I'm sure he got sent down at least once that year. So he may have another year left. Even if they don't send him down, the option will strengthen Kenny's hand in any trade negotiations compared to if he was out of options.

based on his whitesox.com player bio, he was called up in May 03 and has stayed up since.

Chisox003
01-27-2005, 03:29 PM
You guys are so mean! Willie is right! I agree with him! He should be the one out there everyday at 2nd! I would be upset to if i was in his positon! THe only part i don't like, is him saying that if he can't play, then he wants to leave! That's just not an option! He can't leave! :(:

You also have a picture of one of the worst second basemen to play for the White Sox in recent memory for your sig....

When Willie leaves, you and him can travel together whining all the way to his new home....Hopefully a long way from Chicago:violin:

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:30 PM
You also have a picture of one of the worst second basemen to play for the White Sox in recent memory for your sig....

When Willie leaves, you and him can travel together whining all the way to his new home....Hopefully a long way from Chicago:violin:

Aw, leave Bafia alone. I like her sort of dewey-eyed optimism. Reminds me of me before I got too deep into Sox fandom... :rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 03:32 PM
based on his whitesox.com player bio, he was called up in May 03 and has stayed up since.I guess you're right. I'm thinking of 2002. I recall he was red-hot in Charlotte, hitting about .380. They called him up and Jerry Manuel proceeded to sit him on the bench for two weeks.:mad:

Brian26
01-27-2005, 03:36 PM
Willie says he feels like he's accomplished a lot this offseason?

What the hell does that mean? Has he been hitting the ball well in the batting cage? Is he kicking ass in hop-box down in Georgia? He's benching 5 extra pounds in his basement?

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:39 PM
Willie says he feels like he's accomplished a lot this offseason?

What the hell does that mean? Has he been hitting the ball well in the batting cage? Is he kicking ass in hop-box down in Georgia? He's benching 5 extra pounds in his basement?
:rolling:

I thought that too when I read it.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 03:41 PM
Now that we have another second baseman (and considering Willie makes very little), can we assume that the injury did affect his play and then if he shows nothing this year we can assume that it wasn't the injury and we can get rid of him instead of dumping him now before we find out?

Some interesting stats:

May 19 (the day he collided with Magglio) he was hitting .308

May 30 he average went up to .319

June 5 (over two weeks after the collision) it peaked at .323

It decreased steadily the rest of the season.


Maybe it's just me but it doesn't look like running into Magglio affected his production all that much...

mweflen
01-27-2005, 03:45 PM
Some interesting stats:

May 19 (the day he collided with Magglio) he was hitting .308

May 30 he average went up to .319

June 5 (over two weeks after the collision) it peaked at .323

It decreased steadily the rest of the season.


Maybe it's just me but it doesn't look like running into Magglio affected his production all that much...

zing!:duel:

HoustonAstros967
01-27-2005, 03:50 PM
Harris is a waste of space. He doesn't deserve to complain. The bottom line is he sucks. They got some one whos better. He should just shutup and warm the bench like deserves.

DickAllen72
01-27-2005, 04:33 PM
Keep in mind this story was written by the same guy who brought us the "Carlos Lee was a clubhouse cancer" story. Taking quotes and putting them together out of context does not sound out of the question. If Willie is just saying that he wants a fair chance to compete, what's wrong with that? Nowhere in the story did I see him say that he thought he was "entitled" to anything other than a fair shot. My attitude would be the same: either give me a fair shot to compete or if you don't want me, then trade me.



Thank you! Cowley is always writing stories designed to stir up trouble. He's done it with Frank Thomas, Carlos Lee, and others.

If you look at exactly what Willie is quoted as saying, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of his statements. He has a good attitude, not a bad one. basically he's saying that if the Sox think Iguchi is going to make the team better, that's great but don't just hand him the job without ever seeing him play. Let him compete with Willie for the starting job. What's wrong with that???

Willie is young, and as he has pointed out, never got a chance to get a lot of at-bats consistently. I remember when Valentin was hurt, Willie was batting well and playing great at 2B, Uribe was playing well and hitting way over his head at SS, and Rowand was doing a good job in CF. Then when Valentin returned from his injury after striking out several times in a row in his minor league rehab stint, Ozzie forced him back in the lineup, causing Uribe to move to 2b, Harris to play sporadically out of position in CF, and forcing Rowand to the bench when Willie was in CF. Willies BA took a dive, Rowand's development was stalled causing many here to declare him a bust, and Valentin continued to strike out a lot. As I said it at the time, "Valentin is killing the Sox."

So now Willie's been working his butt off in the offseason looking forward to finally getting a chance to play everyday, and the Sox bring in a guy who it appears is there to replace him. Willie tells Cowley that he hopes he at least has a chance to compete with Iguchi for the job but if they don't want him in their plans then let him know and trade him. He even said this situation motivates him. Cowley strings the quotes together without printing the questions that were asked and makes it appear as if Harris is just spouting off unsolicited.

BTW, even though I like Willie, I was all for the signing of Iguchi and I hope he turns out to be a real star for the Sox at 2B. But before they just hand him the job maybe they should actually see him play and see if he is better than Harris. Sure, he hit .340 in Japan, but Willie hit .380 in AAA.

If they can trade Harris and get someone good for him in return that really helps the team, by all means do it. But it would be foolish to just give away your starting 2B who is only 26 yrs old and great defensively before you've even seen his replacement play in the Major Leagues.

mcfish
01-27-2005, 04:35 PM
Some interesting stats:

May 19 (the day he collided with Magglio) he was hitting .308

May 30 he average went up to .319

June 5 (over two weeks after the collision) it peaked at .323

It decreased steadily the rest of the season.


Maybe it's just me but it doesn't look like running into Magglio affected his production all that much...Ok, Willie sucks there's nothing he could possibly do for the team. Trade him now for whatever you can get. Get Rauch back from Washington. Iguchi's going to hit .400 anyway, right? Who needs a backup for a rookie? Not us, no sir. In fact, let's get rid of him and go into the season with only the three starters and Wilson Valdez on the roster who can play infield. That'll work. Valdez is just stupendous. Let's not consider any possible explanations for Willie's sudden drop off - it was because he sucks. Let's not even consider that Crede couldn't sniff .323 if his life depended on it, even if he does have that break-out year you all seem to expect from him.

Seriously, I don't know why Willie dropped off. It wasn't injury, fine. Maybe it was a lack of regular playing time, because it was about that time that Jose came off the DL and took Uribe out of SS and put him at 2B so Willie had to sit a lot and play CF the rest of the time. Maybe it was because we lost 2 great hitters and there was no protection in the lineup for anyone anymore, because everyone's numbers fell off around the same time. Maybe he really does suck. But all he asked for was a chance to challenge Iguchi for the starter's role at 2B.

NSSoxFan
01-27-2005, 04:37 PM
Give him a chance to compete for the job. If hell then freezes over, during spring training, he can re-assume the role of 2B.

Realist
01-27-2005, 04:49 PM
Raise your hand if you thought Rowand had talent last off-season. I should be seeing about 10 hands - myself not included, as I wanted to send him down to Charlotte just like 90% of everyone else around here.

*Hand rises* Last off season I predicted Rowand to win the American League Batting Title. So I was a little off. I had high hopes for Willie this year and I do believe he has the talent to be a very good ball player. I'm not digging his attitude right now, but I do believe that he may have been taken out of context in the article.

markp8867
01-27-2005, 04:51 PM
You also have a picture of one of the worst second basemen to play for the White Sox in recent memory for your sig....

When Willie leaves, you and him can travel together whining all the way to his new home....Hopefully a long way from Chicago:violin:

Well both Jimenez and Harris are better second baseman than Tony Graffanino! :tongue:

You should support Willie as long as he is still on the White Sox. He can be very valuable since he can play both infield and outfield and is a good pinch runner and pinch hitter too!

mweflen
01-27-2005, 04:56 PM
Give him a chance to compete for the job. If hell then freezes over, during spring training, he can re-assume the role of 2B.

I agree in principle. I just don't want to see a repeat of last year, with Krotch eating up valuable Shingo-time for months.

Unless Gucci goes .005 with 50 errors through spring training, he should start the season. We play him for a month or so in the 9 hole to see if he gets it (promoting him to 2-hole if he does), and if not, then Harris is the fallback.

StillMissOzzie
01-27-2005, 05:05 PM
I didn't read the Southtown article until after scrolling through 10 pages of mostly dump-on-Willie, so IMHO:

"Hopefully, they don't just hand him anything" - yeah, Willie, let's not make THAT mistake again of handing the 2B job to an unproven nobody. However, with the Sox' free-spending ways, they didn't throw just under $5M to Iguchi to ride the pine in favor of Willie's $350K or so. Iguchi will have to really flop in order to sit him down.

I do hope that there is a legitimate fight for the job this year. Allow me to digress to make a point. Bears fans were clamoring last year for Kurt Warner at backup QB, and Kurt made it clear that he didn't want to go anywhere where he wouldn't be given a chance to fight for the starting job. He went to NY, and the Bears suffered with Quinn & Krenzel as a result. I don't think the Bears will make that mistake again.

That's why I hope that there is a fair fight for the job in ST, and may the best man win.

SMO
:gulp:

Edit: For what it's worth, ESPN's Rumor Central (from the IN section, a pay-per) has some sorta story on the Sox ready to deal Harris

mcfish
01-27-2005, 05:06 PM
I agree in principle. I just don't want to see a repeat of last year, with Krotch eating up valuable Shingo-time for months.

Unless Gucci goes .005 with 50 errors through spring training, he should start the season. We play him for a month or so in the 9 hole to see if he gets it (promoting him to 2-hole if he does), and if not, then Harris is the fallback.Koch blew 3 saves for us all last season and was promptly traded after blowing 2 in a row. He was hard to watch the whole time, but he didn't really fail until just before the trade.

I think the bar should be raised a little higher for Iguchi. What if he hits .150 with no errors in ST while Willie hits .290? What if Willie figures out how to get a jump at first in ST and steals bases efficiently, while Iguchi struggles?

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 05:10 PM
I didn't read the Southtown article until after scrolling through 10 pages of mostly dump-on-Willie, so IMHO:

"Hopefully, they don't just hand him anything" - yeah, Willie, let's not make THAT mistake again of handing the 2B job to an unproven nobody. However, with the Sox' free-spending ways, they didn't throw just under $5M to Iguchi to ride the pine in favor of Willie's $350K or so. Iguchi will have to really flop in order to sit him down.

I do hope that there is a legitimate fight for the job this year. Allow me to digress to make a point. Bears fans were clamoring last year for Kurt Warner at backup QB, and Kurt made it clear that he didn't want to go anywhere where he wouldn't be given a chance to fight for the starting job. He went to NY, and the Bears suffered with Quinn & Krenzel as a result. I don't think the Bears will make that mistake again.

That's why I hope that there is a fair fight for the job in ST, and may the best man win.

SMO
:gulp:Let's not kid ourselves. Any "competition" would be a fiction. As you point out, the Sox didn't spend $5M on Iguchi to have him watch from the dugout. There would have to be a major flameout for him not to get the job. But it is what it is. Best case, Willie has a good spring and keeps Frank's roster spot warm for a while, filling in for Iguchi once in a while if he struggles, then gets traded for a decent prospect.

markp8867
01-27-2005, 05:20 PM
Let's not kid ourselves. Any "competition" would be a fiction. As you point out, the Sox didn't spend $5M on Iguchi to have him watch from the dugout. There would have to be a major flameout for him not to get the job. But it is what it is. Best case, Willie has a good spring and keeps Frank's roster spot warm for a while, filling in for Iguchi once in a while if he struggles, then gets traded for a decent prospect.


Why not? They are giving Everett more money to sit and watch from the bench. Once Frank comes back, that is exactly what Carl will be doing. Willie will have the chance to win the starting job. Just because a player does well in Japan does not mean he will also do well in MLB.

cubhater
01-27-2005, 05:21 PM
The biggest hit you had last year was on Magglio's knee. Singles hitter who bat .262 and fast guys who don't steal bases don't start in the majors.

The Soc DO have a role for you. It's called the backup 2nd baseman/CF/pinch runner. Don't look at it as losing a position, look at it as gaining 3!

Oh, and if you don't like it, strap a set on and do something in spring training to MAKE Guillen put you in the starting lineup!:whiner:

You took the words out of my mouth!

mweflen
01-27-2005, 05:25 PM
Koch blew 3 saves for us all last season and was promptly traded after blowing 2 in a row. He was hard to watch the whole time, but he didn't really fail until just before the trade.

I think the bar should be raised a little higher for Iguchi. What if he hits .150 with no errors in ST while Willie hits .290? What if Willie figures out how to get a jump at first in ST and steals bases efficiently, while Iguchi struggles?

Regardless of potential struggles, if Guuci hits more than Willie's .181 against lefties (a likelihood), he should at the very least remain part of a 2B platoon, with Willie hitting against the righties.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 05:32 PM
Why not? They are giving Everett more money to sit and watch from the bench. Once Frank comes back, that is exactly what Carl will be doing. Willie will have the chance to win the starting job. Just because a player does well in Japan does not mean he will also do well in MLB.Big difference. They need a full-time DH until Frank comes back, and who knows when that will be? Once Thomas is back, Everett is an ideal bat off the bench - switch hitter with power to all fields. Harris can't hit lefties at all and so far hasn't been that hot against righties, either. And with the limitations of the 25-man roster, there's just no space for two secondbasemen once Thomas comes back. Who would you bump from the roster to keep Harris?

chaz171
01-27-2005, 05:35 PM
Iguchi and Harris are Both unproven commodities as 2nd basemen. it's pointless 3 weeks before ST that you would decide on one or the other or dump one. chances are Willie will have Home Depot embossed in his backside from sitting whther he goes or stays......

for one reason.

Willie Harris is not that good.

I think we should worry if Orlando Hernandez is Spanish for Todd Ritchie or not.

ja1022
01-27-2005, 05:35 PM
Who would you bump from the roster to keep Harris?

Valdez

cubhater
01-27-2005, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=Hangar18]Willie is Far too valuable on our bench to just get rid of him.
Someone needs to talk to him and straighten his head out

I agree, and who here wouldn't be upset if you found out your job had been handed to someone else ? Why not give Willie a fair chance to compete for the job? He said he's been working hard in the offseason and he's willing to go all out in Spring training to show what he's done. Let's see how Willie does before we kick him out the door.

How could I be upset if I didn't do my job to the best of my ability (in other words, UNDERPERFORMED) and the boss hired someone else?

Like another poster replied, the Sox got Alomar twice and Uribe. Sometimes that's enough to light a fire under a player's butt. Apparently Willie never responded.

chaz171
01-27-2005, 05:38 PM
Valdez

This is your only reserve that can play the left side of the infield........ does that make sense?

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 05:40 PM
ValdezThere is NO possibility that Kenny will go into the season without a viable backup for SS and 3B. None. If Iguchi can fill that role, fine, but all indications are that he cannot. If it's not Valdez it will be somebody else.

chaz171
01-27-2005, 05:44 PM
http://www.geocities.com/meesh2628/wharris.jpghttp://www.brandsoftheworld.com/_data/objects/57964/logo_thumbnail.gifA more likely Starting Position for W.Harris

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 05:48 PM
http://www.geocities.com/meesh2628/wharris.jpghttp://www.brandsoftheworld.com/_data/objects/57964/logo_thumbnail.gifA more likely Starting Position for W.HarrisI actually like Willie. I think he's got a good chance to be a decent major league player. But the reality is that he's done with the Sox. Best case he has a super spring, driving up his trade value, gets traded to an NLC team for a good prospect and spends the summer driving the Cubs nuts.

BTW, the magic number is 163. We don't want no stinkin' ties.:cool:

mikef1331
01-27-2005, 05:54 PM
http://www.geocities.com/meesh2628/wharris.jpghttp://www.brandsoftheworld.com/_data/objects/57964/logo_thumbnail.gifA more likely Starting Position for W.Harris

Wow, they actually chose a picture of Willie about to bunt. :rolleyes:

ja1022
01-27-2005, 06:01 PM
There is NO possibility that Kenny will go into the season without a viable backup for SS and 3B. None. If Iguchi can fill that role, fine, but all indications are that he cannot. If it's not Valdez it will be somebody else.


At this point, the only viable backup for Crede Is Uribe. I don't think they're bringing Josh Fields north. Valdez has played both middle infield positions but not third. I know he hasn't played there in the majors, but if Willie's got enough arm for center you'd think he could learn the SS position enough to be adequate in a pinch.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 06:10 PM
At this point, the only viable backup for Crede Is Uribe. I don't think they're bringing Josh Fields north. Valdez has played both middle infield positions but not third. I know he hasn't played there in the majors, but if Willie's got enough arm for center you'd think he could learn the SS position enough to be adequate in a pinch.If Valdez can play SS I have no doubt he can play 3B. I doubt Harris can play SS. He's never done it that I know of. It's more than arm strength.

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 06:13 PM
Wow, they actually chose a picture of Willie about to bunt. :rolleyes:

Notice how he looks like he can bunt when he poses...well kind of... :wink:

delben91
01-27-2005, 07:14 PM
If Valdez can play SS I have no doubt he can play 3B. I doubt Harris can play SS. He's never done it that I know of. It's more than arm strength.

For some reason I recall Valdez playing a game at 3B last season. But I could be talking out of my you know what here too.

After posting the thread I haven't replied yet. Personally I wouldn't mind keeping Willie around in Frank's roster spot, but that just isn't realistic if the Sox want to have a utility infielder that can play third and short. If he's got an option left I wouldn't mind putting him in AAA for about a month just to ensure that Iguchi isn't somehow less productive than Willie was. But in the end I think Willie is not long for the Sox.

Guess that's the end of Hawk's, "I love watching Willie run!!" lines.

ja1022
01-27-2005, 07:30 PM
For some reason I recall Valdez playing a game at 3B last season.

Other than Crede and Uribe, the only other guys to play 3B last year were Burke and Dransfelt.
Again, I'm for an upgrade at any position at any time, but Gooey is an unknown commodity at this point. Spring training can't get here soon enough.

Chisox003
01-27-2005, 07:37 PM
Guess that's the end of Hawk's, "I love watching Willie run!!" lines.

Ya, but the first time Podsednik takes 2nd (Im assuming bottem of the 1st, on April 4th) and Hawk says "Ill tell ya what, I loooove watchin that man run, we will make forget anything hawk ever said about "hollywood" willie...He Gone!

delben91
01-27-2005, 08:00 PM
Other than Crede and Uribe, the only other guy to play 3B last year was Burke.


All right. Delben = moron :redface:

A. Cavatica
01-27-2005, 08:26 PM
If they can keep him -- even in the minors -- I think they should keep him, at least until midseason. See if he plays better with something to prove. Having Willie sulk a bit isn't going to matter; this isn't a former All-Star like Nomar we're talking about.

guillen4life13
01-27-2005, 08:28 PM
Are you guys kidding? I can't believe you guys, and I'm truly appalled with the responses I've seen in this thread.

All Willie is saying is that he wants a fair chance. I happen to be in the camp that says that Willie is like Aaron Rowand, and I will use evidence to say it's just a matter of time before he blossoms. Rowand blossomed upon getting regular playing time. I think Willie is similar. I'm not against the Iguchi move, but I think that what Willie is saying is very valid. If the front office hasn't spoken to him since the Iguchi deal, I think that displays an amount of unprofessionalism on their part. Willie deserves to know what's going on if what's going on has a significant impact on what's going to happen to him. If I'm in Willie's position, I'd be pissed off as all hell trying to pull a knife out of my back.

Ok... on second thought, I can't find anything to back me up on the net, but I'm gonna use my memory on the evidence. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of these things: this is top of my head memory.

In 2001, he hit something like .305 with 55 steals in AA for Baltimore's affiliate. In 2003 and 2004, he completely dominated AAA for Charlotte. I mean it: he dominated. There was no reason for him to be down there. Last year on the big league club, there were stretches where he was hitting over .300 and he was doing very well. With Tim Raines here, I had confidence in Willie learning the ropes on stealing bases, etc from a great.

Don't even compare him to Borchard because Borchard hasn't done anything significant since 2001 and suffered some injuries which only made things worse. Willie hurt his ankle and that nagged him. Coming into spring training, that should be well healed.


You guys act as though Willie Harris is the s*ittiest thing to ever happen to the White Sox. I think you guys are so critical and aren't even giving him a fair chance. As he said, if you're going to judge him on sporadic at bats, it's just not fair. Rowand is a perfect example of that. And for those of you who blame Willie for Maggs' injury, I think you're full of it. I've heard numerous accounts saying Maggs didn't call him off, so I put more blame on Maggs than Willie, though they should share it. I think everything that Willie has said has been very legit, and all of you would say the same thing if you were in his position. He's gonna be 27 in June, so it's not like you're just holding off some young young prospect anymore. Now is when he should be blossoming, and I think he would have blossomed last year given a good chance. Everyone has bad months. So Willie hit .182 in June. That's like one student whose semester grade gets completely tainted by one bombed test out of nine. It's not a good representation of what the person is capable of. Based on his minor league stats and flashes of what I've seen when he's had consistent major league at bats, I truly think Willie is deserving of a starting spot--a consistent one.

And you guys are really callous and see everything in black and white (no pun intended seriously). You might as well just see Willie swing and miss one one pitch and say, "OMG this guy f'n sucks! trade him away!"

If Iguchi struggles (I hope he doesn't, don't get me wrong), and Willie goes elsewhere and performs well, I am going to call you all out on it. If Willie goes elsewhere, is given a legit chance, and struggles, then you have the right to call me out on it, and I'll take my lumps.

Brian26
01-27-2005, 08:34 PM
For some reason I recall Valdez playing a game at 3B last season. But I could be talking out of my you know what here too.

You might be thinking of Valdez starting at secondbase in his debut. Ozzie played him at second (I think it was in Boston), and then at shortstop for the rest of the year.

Chisox003
01-27-2005, 08:47 PM
Are you guys kidding? I can't believe you guys, and I'm truly appalled with the responses I've seen in this thread.

All Willie is saying is that he wants a fair chance. I happen to be in the camp that says that Willie is like Aaron Rowand, and I will use evidence to say it's just a matter of time before he blossoms. Rowand blossomed upon getting regular playing time. I think Willie is similar. I'm not against the Iguchi move, but I think that what Willie is saying is very valid. If the front office hasn't spoken to him since the Iguchi deal, I think that displays an amount of unprofessionalism on their part. Willie deserves to know what's going on if what's going on has a significant impact on what's going to happen to him. If I'm in Willie's position, I'd be pissed off as all hell trying to pull a knife out of my back.

Ok... on second thought, I can't find anything to back me up on the net, but I'm gonna use my memory on the evidence. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of these things: this is top of my head memory.

In 2001, he hit something like .305 with 55 steals in AA for Baltimore's affiliate. In 2003 and 2004, he completely dominated AAA for Charlotte. I mean it: he dominated. There was no reason for him to be down there. Last year on the big league club, there were stretches where he was hitting over .300 and he was doing very well. With Tim Raines here, I had confidence in Willie learning the ropes on stealing bases, etc from a great.

Don't even compare him to Borchard because Borchard hasn't done anything significant since 2001 and suffered some injuries which only made things worse. Willie hurt his ankle and that nagged him. Coming into spring training, that should be well healed.


You guys act as though Willie Harris is the s*ittiest thing to ever happen to the White Sox. I think you guys are so critical and aren't even giving him a fair chance. As he said, if you're going to judge him on sporadic at bats, it's just not fair. Rowand is a perfect example of that. And for those of you who blame Willie for Maggs' injury, I think you're full of it. I've heard numerous accounts saying Maggs didn't call him off, so I put more blame on Maggs than Willie, though they should share it. I think everything that Willie has said has been very legit, and all of you would say the same thing if you were in his position. He's gonna be 27 in June, so it's not like you're just holding off some young young prospect anymore. Now is when he should be blossoming, and I think he would have blossomed last year given a good chance. Everyone has bad months. So Willie hit .182 in June. That's like one student whose semester grade gets completely tainted by one bombed test out of nine. It's not a good representation of what the person is capable of. Based on his minor league stats and flashes of what I've seen when he's had consistent major league at bats, I truly think Willie is deserving of a starting spot--a consistent one.

And you guys are really callous and see everything in black and white (no pun intended seriously). You might as well just see Willie swing and miss one one pitch and say, "OMG this guy f'n sucks! trade him away!"

If Iguchi struggles (I hope he doesn't, don't get me wrong), and Willie goes elsewhere and performs well, I am going to call you all out on it. If Willie goes elsewhere, is given a legit chance, and struggles, then you have the right to call me out on it, and I'll take my lumps.

I can see where you are coming from on this, but here is what I think...The White Sox are headed in a direction in which consistency and balance are the main components to a successful team...Last year, Willie was incredibally streaky, as I remember a few 5-5 nights in which he looked unstoppable, but would go on to go 0 for his next 20...

I do agree, however, that if the Sox haven't talked to Willie about the signing of Tadahito, that it is a little unproffessional...But, we also don't know ALL of the details, or things that have happened or are happening behind the scenes, away from the media...There are too many 'what ifs' to speculate, and I hope too that Willie gets a fair shot...I just think that Iguchi is a better fit for the team at this point, rather than an unconsistent, slap hitter who cannot utilize his speed...But who's to say if Iguchi will be a better fit, at this point we are just judging on what Tad has done in Japan, and we know its a much different ballgame in the bigs...

I think Willie has all the talent in the world, and I hope that he gets a fair shot come Spring Training, and if he outplays Iguchi, fine get em in there...But the last thing this team needs right now is a bad additude (though probably justifiable) and sulking, just as things SEEM to be headed in a good direction...I hope Willie stays and gets a shot, but if he ends up being a "cancer" (as many people called AJ), and doesnt live up to his full ability (which he hasnt yet), I think its only a matter of time before He Gone

bc2k
01-27-2005, 11:21 PM
Okay, this "argument" that Willie DESERVES another chance based on Aaron Rowand's career turnaround is an argument based all on feeling, little on facts.

Willie and Rowand are two completely different baseball players, two completely different men. They have different styles of play, they have differing batting approaches, different mindsets, different body types, different backgrounds, a different work ethic, different goals, way different attitudes and respect for the game, each is a different type of teammate, have different egos, and thus, now have different paychecks. :smile:

The best point in one's argument for Willie cannot be that a COMPLETElY different man and baseball player made a great improvenment in one season, so Willie will too. That point only illustrates one's emotion for Willie and how one WANTS, NOT THINKS he will have a breakout year.

That said, I didn't really have much of a problem with his statements in this article. The reason I believe he shouldn't get another chance is because the Sox have 25 better and more useful men to form the roster with.

guillen4life13
01-27-2005, 11:25 PM
I can see where you are coming from on this, but here is what I think...The White Sox are headed in a direction in which consistency and balance are the main components to a successful team...Last year, Willie was incredibally streaky, as I remember a few 5-5 nights in which he looked unstoppable, but would go on to go 0 for his next 20...

I do agree, however, that if the Sox haven't talked to Willie about the signing of Tadahito, that it is a little unproffessional...But, we also don't know ALL of the details, or things that have happened or are happening behind the scenes, away from the media...There are too many 'what ifs' to speculate, and I hope too that Willie gets a fair shot...I just think that Iguchi is a better fit for the team at this point, rather than an unconsistent, slap hitter who cannot utilize his speed...But who's to say if Iguchi will be a better fit, at this point we are just judging on what Tad has done in Japan, and we know its a much different ballgame in the bigs...

I think Willie has all the talent in the world, and I hope that he gets a fair shot come Spring Training, and if he outplays Iguchi, fine get em in there...But the last thing this team needs right now is a bad additude (though probably justifiable) and sulking, just as things SEEM to be headed in a good direction...I hope Willie stays and gets a shot, but if he ends up being a "cancer" (as many people called AJ), and doesnt live up to his full ability (which he hasnt yet), I think its only a matter of time before He Gone

That's fair. I just don't see Willie's remarks as being very "cancerous." He said what was on his mind and I happen to agree with him on a lot of it. He's making sense. All he's saying is that management had told him that the starting job was his and that he shouldn't worry about it, and then they got Iggy--and they still haven't contacted him about future plans, etc. I'd be really pissed off if I were in Willie's position--anyone would. I'll admit, telling the media this stuff isn't exactly helping things, but having these thoughts on his mind is only human.

But just about every other point you made was, IMO, very valid.

chisox06
01-28-2005, 01:56 AM
The question is if Willie does outperform Iguchi in ST, does he get the nod? Considering Iguchi's contract I would say no. All Willie wants is a shot, whether he gets a fair one or not will be determined.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2005, 12:29 PM
From today's newspaper:

"I still believe Willie can step forward. Willie plays for 15 years in this league, either here or somewhere else." --Greg Walker

Goodbye Willie.

Lip

tacosalbarojas
01-28-2005, 12:47 PM
I think we should worry if Orlando Hernandez is Spanish for Todd Ritchie or not. If anything, I think we should be concerned that Orlando Hernandez is Spanish for Cal Eldred.

mweflen
01-28-2005, 01:08 PM
Todd Ritchie couldn't hold El Duque's jock strap.

maurice
01-28-2005, 02:37 PM
KW's comments at the press conference seem to indicate that he's not trying to move Harris right now.

Iwritecode
01-28-2005, 02:44 PM
KW's comments at the press conference seem to indicate that he's not trying to move Harris right now.

Well, it'd be pretty stupid for him to say

"Well, not that we've got Iguchi, we really don't need Willie Harris anymore. Does anyone need a speedy second baseman that can't steal bases real well or hit lefties???"

maurice
01-28-2005, 02:54 PM
Well, it'd be pretty stupid for him to say "Well, not that we've got Iguchi, we really don't need Willie Harris anymore. Does anyone need a speedy second baseman that can't steal bases real well or hit lefties???"

It also would be perfectly consistent with the way he handled Jimenez and Rauch.

KW might be sneaky, but he's not dishonest.

Fake Chet Lemon
01-28-2005, 10:49 PM
[QUOTE=guillen4life13]Are you guys kidding? I can't believe you guys, and I'm truly appalled with the responses I've seen in this thread.

I'm glad you had the stones to write this first. I didn't but was having the same thoughts. Willie really took one for the team when Ozzie with ZERO NOTICE stuck him in Center Field last May or so. He did it even though he had no "reps" out there including spring training. That's when his batting average really seemed to plummet. Does anyone know Willie's BA when he was playing second only, excluding the Center Field AB's? I'm guessing around .280?

mccoydp
01-29-2005, 08:50 AM
I can't say I've ever really cared for Willie as a player. He always looked like he had a bad attitude to me, and thought he was lazy all last year. Maybe we can package him up with Joe Borchard and get rid of them both 2-for-1. If Crede doesn't pick it up and stop watching balls whiz by him in the batter's box, we could make it a 3-for-1.

See you later Willie; I'm sure some rookie league or single-A teams need you.

guillen4life13
01-29-2005, 09:41 AM
I can't say I've ever really cared for Willie as a player. He always looked like he had a bad attitude to me, and thought he was lazy all last year. Maybe we can package him up with Joe Borchard and get rid of them both 2-for-1. If Crede doesn't pick it up and stop watching balls whiz by him in the batter's box, we could make it a 3-for-1.

See you later Willie; I'm sure some rookie league or single-A teams need you.

For all of you who say "Willie has always had a bad attitude" etc. or that he was lazy, please give me some evidence or reasons for why you think as such, because I really have no idea where you guys are coming from.

Borchard is worth trading. Even in the minors it doesn't seem like he's having too much success. OTOH, Harris and Crede both killed the minors. There's nothing left for them to prove down there, and the place for them to develop is on the big club.

And for all of you who consider Crede to be such a liability, maybe your short memories, just maybe, they'll remember how Crede came through in the clutch on quite a few occasions, which is much more important than any of you seem to care to think. Wait, are you capable of remembering the sentence I just wrote? Oh, ok. Just making sure.

What's sickening is that I didn't know if the above should have been teal or not.

mccoydp
01-29-2005, 10:34 AM
What I said was that I always thought that Willie Harris had a bad attitude. I don't think he gave 100% when hitting or running the bases. It's my observation, and I'm entitled to it.
As for Crede: I know he had a good season in 2003, but something seemed amiss this past season. Granted, this was only his second season with 490+ at-bats, but he seemed too content to sit back and let good pitches whiz by. I watched 99% of the games last season, and I know what I saw. I guess what bothers me is that some people want to compare him to Robin Ventura, and he's nowhere near Robin's level yet. A season or two more will tell us if he's at that level. Joe needs consistency.
I stand by my Wilie Harris comments. I've been a devoted White Sox fan since I first started watching baseball in the mid-80's and I have seen my share of good and bad second basemen. My memory is outstanding. Willie needs a fire lit under his rear, and maybe the Iguchi signing will do it.

guillen4life13
01-29-2005, 11:54 AM
What I said was that I always thought that Willie Harris had a bad attitude. I don't think he gave 100% when hitting or running the bases. It's my observation, and I'm entitled to it.
As for Crede: I know he had a good season in 2003, but something seemed amiss this past season. Granted, this was only his second season with 490+ at-bats, but he seemed too content to sit back and let good pitches whiz by. I watched 99% of the games last season, and I know what I saw. I guess what bothers me is that some people want to compare him to Robin Ventura, and he's nowhere near Robin's level yet. A season or two more will tell us if he's at that level. Joe needs consistency.
I stand by my Wilie Harris comments. I've been a devoted White Sox fan since I first started watching baseball in the mid-80's and I have seen my share of good and bad second basemen. My memory is outstanding. Willie needs a fire lit under his rear, and maybe the Iguchi signing will do it.

Okay. I respect your opinions. I just wanted to know where the "willie has a bad attitude" or "I think Willie has a bad attitude" statements were coming from, honestly. You are entitled to your opinion, but a major point of these boards is for opinions to be debated and questioned. That includes my opinions, so all of you can feel free to question and debate my opinions. In fact, I encourage it.

I will agree with you when you say that Crede didn't perform to his potential last year. However, he was very clutch last year on quite a few occasions, and sometimes clutch like that isn't easily replaceable. I don't think he was "content" with his performance last year. He didn't exactly vent his frustration by going into the dugout and throwing water coolers around, etc., but he did look frustrated with his performances.

Of what I heard, he had a mechanical flaw that they say has been corrected now. Granted, that might just be an excuse for his performance, but a mechanical flaw corrected can do great things to a player's hitting.

Crede and Robin are two different people. I don't think they should be compared to each other, period, because their styles are so much different. As far as I'm concerned, the only parallels between them are that they're tall white brown haired third basemen who came through the Sox system with hopes that they would be the "3rd Baseman of the Future." The actual style of play is a lot different.

My earlier post was not directly towards you, but rather to a great portion of the WSI community. In the few years I've been on these boards, I have noticed that many of the posters (not all, and maybe not even the majority) are quite the bandwagon jumpers and quick to forget the good or bad things a certain player or figure has done, depending on which bandwagon they're on. It's almost comical.


By the way, welcome aboard!:supernana: If you've been a lurker here, you may know what I'm talking about with the bandwagon jumping, etc. If you haven't lurked, you'll soon understand what I'm talking about.

Iwritecode
01-29-2005, 12:35 PM
Okay. I respect your opinions. I just wanted to know where the "willie has a bad attitude" or "I think Willie has a bad attitude" statements were coming from, honestly.

Just meet him one time. It's not hard to see.

Plenty of people on this board have...

guillen4life13
01-29-2005, 12:37 PM
Just meet him one time. It's not hard to see.

Plenty of people on this board have...

Fair enough. I haven't met him, so I can't comment. Just out of curiousity: what's he like that makes him come off as an a-hole?

Iwritecode
01-29-2005, 12:40 PM
Fair enough. I haven't met him, so I can't comment. Just out of curiousity: what's he like that makes him come off as an a-hole?

It's real hard to pinpoint unless you actually see him but it's just an "air" about him that you get. It's like he's a major league ball player and you're not and his **** don't stink.

His "handlers" at Soxfest and talking on his cell while signing autographs didn't help either...

guillen4life13
01-29-2005, 12:44 PM
It's real hard to pinpoint unless you actually see him but it's just an "air" about him that you get. It's like he's a major league ball player and you're not and his **** don't stink.

His "handlers" at Soxfest and talking on his cell while signing autographs didn't help either...

I see. So pretty much he's just really stuck up about being a big-leaguer and being known, etc. I know what you mean. Maybe the guy should establish himself a bit more before he acts like hot stuff... or better yet he should drop that air altogether.

But again, I hate to judge without first hand experience.

jerry myers
01-29-2005, 01:16 PM
I didnt here of what willie said but ill look, but im all for Iguchi whatever is best for our chances to win finally. if willie can step up Great if not see you! This is not the cubs I respect Thomas Konerko,ect,but we the fans who will always be here want our team to win championships. im going to fully backup whoever can prove they can fully help our team. Kenny Williams has given the white sox team a great chance ,now they got to play ball have fun, and we the fans have to show up, and back them up.

JGarlandrules20
01-29-2005, 01:17 PM
His "handlers" at Soxfest and talking on his cell while signing autographs didn't help either...I have proof..:(:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/sully588/Sox%20players/mcredenwill.bmp
That was last soxfest.. he wasn't on his phone long, but still. It was rude.

jerry myers
01-29-2005, 01:28 PM
what did he say?

shingo3
01-29-2005, 02:50 PM
Wat a baby this guy needs a reality check and quick i say trade him get a good middle infielder prospect and get rid of him. I dont understand y harris is goin out and tellin the papers about this it is not like he is 1 of our leading guyz in the clubhouse. Bye-Bye Willie:D:

guillen4life13
01-29-2005, 03:16 PM
Wat a baby this guy needs a reality check and quick i say trade him get a good middle infielder prospect and get rid of him. I dont understand y harris is goin out and tellin the papers about this it is not like he is 1 of our leading guyz in the clubhouse. Bye-Bye Willie:D:

I'm gonna guess you're like 12 or 13. Am I right?

delben91
01-29-2005, 03:33 PM
Never thought ole willie would've gotten so much debate...

Hopefully he'll have spring training to prove the Sox wrong. If the Sox do move him to another team though, I suspect the Sox will still survive the season.

Palehose13
01-29-2005, 03:37 PM
I'm gonna guess you're like 12 or 13. Am I right?

Cause you're so much older. :wink:

JGRules...like your new sig!

delben91
01-29-2005, 03:42 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

guillen4life13
01-29-2005, 04:18 PM
Cause you're so much older. :wink:

JGRules...like your new sig!


I never denied it. :cool:

I just say "guys" instead of "guyz" and "you" instead of "u."

I'm sure back when I started on these boards (I think I was a fresh 13 year old like I'm assuming Shingo3 is), I used lingo like that, but now it looks so foreign. Plus I very rarely used such lingo and you could tell when a sentence started and stopped.

To quote Abe Simpson: "I used to be It, then they changed what It was, and now what's It, I find strange and terrifying."

Ironic coming from me.

shingo3
01-29-2005, 05:02 PM
Yea sorry about the lingo first time posting and I am so used 2 writing like that try and remeber for future posts. All I wanted to say was that I think Willie is just casuing unedded problems and that he should have to have some competition for his job.

guillen4life13
01-29-2005, 08:55 PM
Yea sorry about the lingo first time posting and I am so used 2 writing like that try and remeber for future posts. All I wanted to say was that I think Willie is just casuing unedded problems and that he should have to have some competition for his job.

Don't worry about it.

I agree that he should have competition for his job. However your previous post said "get rid of him." If you no longer stand by that statement, then I won't debate you on it. If you still stand by the statement, then, I guess read my previous posts in the thread (My first post was I think in the 180's count of the thread, so move backwards). My first post in the thread was a novela, but read it to know where I come from, and then read my subsequent posts, etc. Perhaps you might agree with me.

Whitesox029
01-29-2005, 09:50 PM
I never denied it. :cool:

I just say "guys" instead of "guyz" and "you" instead of "u."

I'm sure back when I started on these boards (I think I was a fresh 13 year old like I'm assuming Shingo3 is), I used lingo like that, but now it looks so foreign.

WSI--the most underrated grammar and usage practice tool in the entire educational field. :D:
I too was just 14 when I got my WSI start, but I was an abnormal 14 year old, so I never really typed like that. :dunno:

guillen4life13
01-30-2005, 02:08 AM
WSI--the most underrated grammar and usage practice tool in the entire educational field. :D:
I too was just 14 when I got my WSI start, but I was an abnormal 14 year old, so I never really typed like that. :dunno:

Eh, I was on the abnormal side myself. I used lingo pretty infrequently and usually because I was trying to type my messages quicker because I would write posts, play guitar, and be learning tabs all at once. So it was more for the economy than anything. If I had two free hands, I wrote full words and full sentences using correct punctuation, grammar, spelling, and capitalization. But as of now, I agree with delben's unedited post. This thread has now officially deteriorated.

delben91
01-30-2005, 10:12 AM
But as of now, I agree with delben's unedited post. This thread has now officially deteriorated.

Yeah, I figured I'd take that back so as to not make it seem like I was belittling the "new debate" on the thread.

That said...mods, if you want to move this or close it down, talk of Willie seems to have ceased. As the thread's author "I approve this move".

PaleHoseGeorge
01-30-2005, 10:58 AM
Yeah, I figured I'd take that back so as to not make it seem like I was belittling the "new debate" on the thread.

That said...mods, if you want to move this or close it down, talk of Willie seems to have ceased. As the thread's author "I approve this move".

Thank you. Consider it done. We have a place for this.
:cool: