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SOXintheBURGH
01-26-2005, 03:08 PM
Good thing we got some decent scouts overseas:

"King was less impressed with second baseman Tadahito Iguchi, who may come to the states this year. He suggested that while Iguchi may have success eventually, the second baseman could endure a significant adjustment period due to the greater velocity of many American pitchers' fastballs. "

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp (http://http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp)

DiGiSyKo
01-26-2005, 03:12 PM
fixed link: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp

mweflen
01-26-2005, 03:12 PM
Good thing we got some decent scouts overseas:

"King was less impressed with second baseman Tadahito Iguchi, who may come to the states this year. He suggested that while Iguchi may have success eventually, the second baseman could endure a significant adjustment period due to the greater velocity of many American pitchers' fastballs. "

http://http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp

your link has one too many "http://" in it. you should edit one of them out.

interesting story - i'd like to see a more detailed feature on the transition from Japanese ball to MLB in general - what types of players excel, what types have problems, differences in approach and pitching, etc.

anyone know a good summary piece by a well knows sports writer?

Sad
01-26-2005, 03:14 PM
who's Ray King? :?:

Baby Fisk
01-26-2005, 03:14 PM
[thread aside]

Alomar! :angry: The Cardinals have made an offer to Roberto Alomar! My god what idiots!

[/thread aside]

DiGiSyKo
01-26-2005, 03:15 PM
who's Ray King? :?:

a st. louis pitcher?

rdivaldi
01-26-2005, 03:16 PM
Good thing we got some decent scouts overseas:

"King was less impressed with second baseman Tadahito Iguchi, who may come to the states this year. He suggested that while Iguchi may have success eventually, the second baseman could endure a significant adjustment period due to the greater velocity of many American pitchers' fastballs. "

http://http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp (http://http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp)

I'd read that a couple of weeks ago, and I just don't buy it. Also, there really aren't that many flamethrowers in our division, most of the starters work in the high 80's/low 90's. I can't imagine a guy who can hit that well will have trouble adjusting to fastballs.

SOXintheBURGH
01-26-2005, 03:17 PM
who's Ray King? :?:

Cards relief pitcher... huge black dude. I'm sure you may have seen him pitch.

jabrch
01-26-2005, 03:29 PM
I'm not too impressed with Ray King...so there

Tekijawa
01-26-2005, 03:31 PM
He's pitched on 4 teams in his first 6 years... he must be good!

Sad
01-26-2005, 03:32 PM
10-4... I thought he was some obscure scout or something like that


Hoo-Hah

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 03:35 PM
Cards relief pitcher... huge black dude. I'm sure you may have seen him pitch.

So in other words no relation to Billie Jean King or Stephen King...

:cool:

jabrch
01-26-2005, 03:43 PM
So in other words no relation to Billie Jean King or Stephen King...

:cool:

Probably no more qualified than Billie Jean or Stephen to scout a guy who he only saw play a few times while on the Japan tour.

champagne030
01-26-2005, 03:52 PM
Probably no more qualified than Billie Jean or Stephen to scout a guy who he only saw play a few times while on the Japan tour.

it only takes a couple of viewings of crede swings to realize his bat speed is nonexsistent....a couple of fly ball adventures to realize gload's not an OF....a couple of pitches by mike jackson to realize he was done.....maybe the mlb players realized iguchi couldn't handle a good fastball. none of us knows because we haven't seem him play, but it won't take long in ST to find out.

thepaulbowski
01-26-2005, 03:54 PM
it only takes a couple of viewings of crede swings to realize his bat speed is nonexsistent....a couple of fly ball adventures to realize gload's not an OF....a couple of pitches by mike jackson to realize he was done.....maybe the mlb players realized iguchi couldn't handle a good fastball. none of us knows because we haven't seem him play, but it won't take long in ST to find out.

Just like we found out about Shingo during ST. He never rebounded from his high ERA during ST.

Baby Fisk
01-26-2005, 03:57 PM
Just like we found out about Shingo during ST. He never rebounded from his high ERA during ST.
Good point. Most of us wanted to return that broken product to Japan before the season even started.

mweflen
01-26-2005, 03:58 PM
Robbie signed with the D-Rays recently, IIRC. As did Chris Singleton today. They're on their way...

jabrch
01-26-2005, 04:00 PM
it only takes a couple of viewings of crede swings to realize his bat speed is nonexsistent....a couple of fly ball adventures to realize gload's not an OF....a couple of pitches by mike jackson to realize he was done.....maybe the mlb players realized iguchi couldn't handle a good fastball. none of us knows because we haven't seem him play, but it won't take long in ST to find out.

Champagne - remember how bad Takatsu's ST was? If you care to - go ressurect a dead thread from ST last year and find the ones where people RAILED on how bad this guy was, how dumb KW was and how Cheap JR is.

It takes much more than a few swings of the bat to tell if a guy can play this game. If it were so easy to see a few swings, a few fly balls, or a few pitches, teams wouldn't waste money developing talent that never makes it and they wouldn't miss on evaluations all the time.

You can't tell anything until you have a large enough sample of real ABs/swings/games against live, regular season pitching. Anything less is pure speculation.

JUribe1989
01-26-2005, 04:28 PM
Connor Smith not impressed with Ray King

champagne030
01-26-2005, 04:35 PM
Champagne - remember how bad Takatsu's ST was? If you care to - go ressurect a dead thread from ST last year and find the ones where people RAILED on how bad this guy was, how dumb KW was and how Cheap JR is.

It takes much more than a few swings of the bat to tell if a guy can play this game. If it were so easy to see a few swings, a few fly balls, or a few pitches, teams wouldn't waste money developing talent that never makes it and they wouldn't miss on evaluations all the time.

You can't tell anything until you have a large enough sample of real ABs/swings/games against live, regular season pitching. Anything less is pure speculation.

i hope i didn't give the impression the guy cannot play. i don't think that was king's pointer either. he said it may take an adjustment period for him with a good mlb fastball. it does only take a few ab's to see that crede has a slow bat and the sox have been trying to shorten that swing for the past 1 1/2 years. i didn't complain about shingo last spring because i put very little stock in what pitchers do in Arizona due to the inablility to throw a curveball there. you will be able, though, to tell if someone is overmatched by a decent fastball. i'm not going to base any opinions on #'s because i think we're all in agreement that st #'s are no indication of what's going to happen in the regular season. i will be less concerned if i see him turning on 92 mph fastballs than if i see him getting blown away by them (and i do think we'll be able to judge that from the spring). i'm far less concerned about his ability to hit breaking stuff because of his japan success and that's mostly what they throw over there.

mjharrison72
01-26-2005, 04:41 PM
I'd read that a couple of weeks ago, and I just don't buy it. Also, there really aren't that many flamethrowers in our division, most of the starters work in the high 80's/low 90's. I can't imagine a guy who can hit that well will have trouble adjusting to fastballs.
Agreed... whatever... the faster they come in, the harder they go out.

Ol' No. 2
01-26-2005, 04:47 PM
Did I miss the part of this story where it said why I should consider Ray King's opinion any more valuable than my dog's?

FireReinsdorf
01-26-2005, 04:53 PM
Champagne - remember how bad Takatsu's ST was? If you care to - go ressurect a dead thread from ST last year and find the ones where people RAILED on how bad this guy was, how dumb KW was and how Cheap JR is.

It takes much more than a few swings of the bat to tell if a guy can play this game. If it were so easy to see a few swings, a few fly balls, or a few pitches, teams wouldn't waste money developing talent that never makes it and they wouldn't miss on evaluations all the time.

You can't tell anything until you have a large enough sample of real ABs/swings/games against live, regular season pitching. Anything less is pure speculation.

Agree if everything above, plus I'd like to add that a player's skill is not static. Everyone's skill set changes, baseball players included. Even if you get a large sample, it's just a valuation of who the player was or at best currently is. It doesn't say anything about who that player could next year or in the future.

Flight #24
01-26-2005, 05:07 PM
Good thing we got some decent scouts overseas:

"King was less impressed with second baseman Tadahito Iguchi, who may come to the states this year. He suggested that while Iguchi may have success eventually, the second baseman could endure a significant adjustment period due to the greater velocity of many American pitchers' fastballs. "

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/news/stl_news.jsp?ymd=20050116&content_id=931727&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp)

So based on a couple of games and maybe 10-15ABs, King in his professional scouting estimation, thinks Iguchi might need some time to adjust to a good fastball?
:whatever:

thepaulbowski
01-26-2005, 05:12 PM
My opinion on Ray King: He needs to stay away from the all-you-can-eat buffet. Yikes.....

darklord23
01-26-2005, 05:13 PM
lol ray king his opinion is worthless garbage

SOXintheBURGH
01-26-2005, 05:15 PM
So based on a couple of games and maybe 10-15ABs, King in his professional scouting estimation, thinks Iguchi might need some time to adjust to a good fastball?
:whatever:


Hey, I never said I agreed with the guy, just thought I'd post something on Iguchi that I read today.

elrod
01-26-2005, 08:02 PM
I heard somebody from a baseball stat company interview by Mike Murphy who compared the three Japanese players - Ichiro, Kaz and Godzilla - to what they did here. On average, the OPS dropped about 200 points for all three. In the case of Godzille, his OPS dropped a ton and then rebounded a little the following year. Ichiro's power numbers dropped a lot but his AVG and SBs stayed way up there. Kaz's numbers might rebound next year. Based on this analysis, Tad's .979 OPS in Japan would translate to a .780 OPS in the US. Still not bad for a 2B. Harris was .665.

fquaye149
01-26-2005, 08:35 PM
Hey, I never said I agreed with the guy, just thought I'd post something on Iguchi that I read today.

"looks like we need some decent scouts overseas"???

SOXintheBURGH
01-26-2005, 09:08 PM
"looks like we need some decent scouts overseas"???

Right, meaning, we have good scouts; not relying on Ray King.

johnny_mostil
01-26-2005, 10:42 PM
"King was less impressed with second baseman Tadahito Iguchi, who may come to the states this year. He suggested that while Iguchi may have success eventually, the second baseman could endure a significant adjustment period due to the greater velocity of many American pitchers' fastballs. "

I suspect Iguchi can hit the heater just fine.

SoxxoS
01-26-2005, 10:47 PM
I'm not impressed with Ray King.

SABRSox
01-26-2005, 10:50 PM
Twins fan, Aaron Gleeman wrote a nice write-up about Japanese transitions to the MLB, and he projected 2005 stats for Iguchi (and I do detect a bit of jealousy from his Wille Harris comment). On average, Japanese players see a 10% drop in AVG, 12% drop in OBP, 25% drop in SLG, and a 44% drop in isolated power. Of course most of the Japanese imports played in pitcher's parks, and Iguchi is gonna be at the Cell, so...

Anyway, he predicts a .300/.345/.425 season from Iguchi, and that's comparable to Placido Polanco or Chone Figgins. Sounds about right to me. Check out the article: http://http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/coming-to-america/

brocco bry
01-26-2005, 10:57 PM
Coming to America

by Aaron Gleeman
January 26, 2005

Last year around this time, Kaz Matsui coming over from Japan was a very big story. He was one of the offseason's most-hyped free agents, there were multiple teams bidding for his services, and published scouting reports touted his skills and accomplishments in Japan. The Mets ended up signing him to a three-year deal worth $20 million.

Fast forward now to this year. Another Japanese middle infielder with a fantastic resume has decided to see what he can do in America. In fact, Tadahito Iguchi's credentials are very similar to Matsui's. Matsui was a career .309/.361/.486 hitter in Japan; Iguchi was a career .271/.349/.471 hitter in Japan. Matsui was coming off two outstanding seasons in which he hit .332/.389/.619 and .305/.365/.549; Iguchi is coming off two outstanding seasons in which he hit .340/.438/.573 and .333/.394/.549. Matsui was a seven-time All-Star and three-time Gold Glove winner at shortstop; Iguchi was a four-time All-Star and three-time Gold Glove winner at second base.

Perhaps the similarities aren't exactly eerie, but they are certainly enough to make you wonder why Iguchi's free agency and subsequent signing with the White Sox went completely under the offseason radar. While the baseball world was getting daily updates on Matsui's status last offseason, I bet most fans didn't even know who Iguchi was until yesterday, let alone that he was a free agent. I am definitely guilty of that too, because I didn't even discuss Iguchi when I previewed the free agent second baseman earlier this offseason (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-meat-market-second-basemen/), mostly because I didn't even know he was a free agent. Now he's a member of the White Sox, signing a two-year deal with around $5 million, with Chicago holding a team option for a third season.

The obvious question now is what sort of production we can expect from Iguchi this season. In an effort to come up with an answer to the same question for Matsui last offseason, I did some very basic estimates based on the performances of past Japanese imports Ichiro!, Hideki Matsui, and Tsuyoshi Shinjo in their first American seasons. The end result was that I projected Matsui's 2004 numbers (http://www.aarongleeman.com/2003_11_30_baseballblog_archive.html#1070345646305 87555) to be .275/.325/.445 and added that the projection was "subject to change, depending on which team he ends up signing with and which ballpark he ends up playing his home games in."

Well, Matsui ended up hitting .272/.331/.396 with the Mets, nearly exact matches for my batting average (.275) and on-base percentage (.325) projections for him, but off by 49 points in slugging percentage. Some of that can be explained by Shea Stadium hurting power numbers, but Matsui slugged just slightly better (.400) on the road than at home (.391). All things considered, it was a pretty good projection, but more importantly what Matsui's first U.S. season does is give us another data point for this year's projection for Iguchi.

Here is a look at how Ichiro!, Shinjo, and the Matsuis did in their first season in America, compared to their last season in Japan:

ICHIRO! AVG OBP SLGLast season in Japan .387 .460 .539First season in U.S. .350 .381 .457 HIDEKI MATSUI AVG OBP SLGLast season in Japan .334 .461 .692First season in U.S. .287 .353 .435 TSUYOSHI SHINJO AVG OBP SLGLast season in Japan .278 .320 .491First season in U.S. .268 .320 .405 KAZ MATSUI AVG OBP SLGLast season in Japan .305 .368 .549First season in U.S. .272 .331 .396There are all sorts of sample-size problems with the above data because it only includes four players and a total of eight seasons, plus it doesn't take into account what sort of ballparks they played in. Still, for some quick-and-dirty estimates, I think it does the trick pretty well (or at least it did last year with Matsui). Taking it one step further, here's a category-by-category breakdown of what each player gained or lost (by percentage) in their first season here:

AVG OBP SLG IsoP IsoDIchiro! - 9.6 -17.2 -15.2 -29.6 -57.5H. Matsui -14.1 -23.4 -37.1 -58.6 -48.0Shinjo - 3.6 0.0 -17.5 -35.7 + 2.4K. Matsui -10.8 -10.1 -27.9 -49.2 - 0.6--------------------------------------------------------------AVERAGE - 9.5 -12.7 -24.4 -43.3 -25.9On average, the four players lost the least production in batting average (-9.5%) and lost the most production in Isolated Power (-43.3%), which seems to match the common perception of what should and does happen when Japanese players come to the U.S. One important thing to consider when looking at the across-the-board drops in production is that the four players called Safeco Field, Yankee Stadium, and Shea Stadium (twice) home during their first U.S. seasons -- all ballparks that depress offense. Iguchi will play half his games at U.S. Cellular Field, which has been one of the friendliest places for hitting in the American League in recent years, and has been particularly good for hitting home runs.

If you take the average drops in each category for the four players listed above, apply them to Iguchi's numbers in Japan last season, and give him a little boost because of his new home ballpark, you get something like this:

YEAR AVG OBP SLG IsoP IsoDTadahito Iguchi 2005 .300 .345 .425 .125 .045Now, that projection is dependent on his 2004 season in Japan being something other than a career-year or a fluke, and it is also dependent on his 2005 season in the U.S. showing his "true" level of talent. So there is a lot that can go wrong, but I think that gives a pretty decent idea of what to expect from Iguchi this year.

Those projected numbers -- .300/.345/.425 with a .125 IsoP and a .045 IsoD -- would make Iguchi's 2005 season very similar to the years infielders Placido Polanco (.298/.345/.441, .143, .047) and Chone Figgins (.296/.350/.419, .123, .054) had in 2004. In other words, solid-but-unspectacular production that should provide a significant upgrade over Willie Harris, who has hit .240/.305/.296 in 823 big-league plate appearances and was slated to man second base for the White Sox before they signed Iguchi.

Brian26
01-27-2005, 12:41 AM
Who the **** is Ray King?

DSpivack
01-27-2005, 12:44 AM
Who the **** is Ray King?

Very good reliever for St. Louis, formerly of Atlanta, originally a Cub, who should realize he is a scout and not a player.

hose
01-27-2005, 07:20 AM
I don't have a problem with King putting in his 2 cents, heck the guy is a MLB pitcher and he was in Japan. Nothing more than a quick scouting report or may be insight on how King would go after him, what's the problem?:?:

Soxzilla
01-27-2005, 08:32 AM
I don't have a problem with King putting in his 2 cents, heck the guy is a MLB pitcher and he was in Japan. Nothing more than a quick scouting report or may be insight on how King would go after him, what's the problem?:?:

The problem here, is the fact he sucks.

Would you care if Jon Adkins went to Japan and told you that iguchi couldn't hit a fast ball after seeing him in 10 at bats? No.

And Ray King can't even lick the boots of Adkins, that is how bad he is.

Jjav829
01-27-2005, 08:41 AM
The problem here, is the fact he sucks.

Would you care if Jon Adkins went to Japan and told you that iguchi couldn't hit a fast ball after seeing him in 10 at bats? No.

And Ray King can't even lick the boots of Adkins, that is how bad he is.

Yeah, because that 2.61 ERA last year was just such crap. :?:

I'm not going to rip Ray King for his comments. He's just giving his honest opinion on the guy. King has seen Iguchi play. I haven't. That means his opinion is certainly going to be more valid than anything I could say. He wasn't impressed with Iguchi, that's fine. He only saw a sample of Iguchi and judged him on that sample. Maybe Iguchi was struggling trying to do too much against the USA team. Maybe he was tired out from the Hawks season and wasn't playing his best. Who knows what could have been going on. Realistically, how many times could Ray King have faced Iguchi? King is a lefty reliever and Iguchi is a righty so I doubt they faced each other more than a couple times. Maybe Iguchi was so distracted by such a large pitcher that he couldn't swing the bat like he normally does.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 09:57 AM
Did I miss the part of this story where it said why I should consider Ray King's opinion any more valuable than my dog's?

:chopper

I'll give you my opinion on Ray King.

JKryl
01-27-2005, 10:11 AM
This whole thing sounds like sour grapes. Maybe the Cardinals will see just how good he is in the World Series this year.

SoxFanTillDeath
01-27-2005, 11:41 AM
Isn't Ray King the guy who said "Don't judge me on how I look in a bikini. Judge me on how I pitch."? Seems to me the guy's always got something to say.

Good pitcher, couldn't care less what he has to say. All I care is if Iguchi can hit, and we'll find that out in a few months.

champagne030
01-27-2005, 12:13 PM
Yeah, because that 2.61 ERA last year was just such crap. :?:

I'm not going to rip Ray King for his comments. He's just giving his honest opinion on the guy. King has seen Iguchi play. I haven't. That means his opinion is certainly going to be more valid than anything I could say. He wasn't impressed with Iguchi, that's fine. He only saw a sample of Iguchi and judged him on that sample. Maybe Iguchi was struggling trying to do too much against the USA team. Maybe he was tired out from the Hawks season and wasn't playing his best. Who knows what could have been going on. Realistically, how many times could Ray King have faced Iguchi? King is a lefty reliever and Iguchi is a righty so I doubt they faced each other more than a couple times. Maybe Iguchi was so distracted by such a large pitcher that he couldn't swing the bat like he normally does.

i too, value his opinion over what someone can try to forecast based on previous players coming over. i only question when did he see him play? i couldn't find iguchi on the japan vs mlb roster this year and he didn't appear in any of the boxscores. was he on the 2002 team?

mweflen
01-27-2005, 12:28 PM
working link:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/coming-to-america/

ChiSoxBobette
01-27-2005, 02:11 PM
So in other words no relation to Billie Jean King or Stephen King...

:cool:
Yeah and probably just as qualified to give us a scouting report, he probably said the same thing about the BoSox in the WS last year.

Iwritecode
01-27-2005, 02:15 PM
Yeah and probably just as qualified to give us a scouting report, he probably said the same thing about the BoSox in the WS last year.

I'm sorry, that line has already been used. Please edit your post and try again.





Kidding... :D:

rdivaldi
01-31-2005, 07:47 PM
Hate to dredge up an old thread, but I got to thinking about what Ray King said and decided to look up the stats of the Japan/US series to see what Iguchi did. One problem though, Iguchi didn't play! Am I missing something here? How could Ray King be unimpressed with a player he's never seen or faced??? :?:

Does anyone know if Iguchi has ever even faced off against this clown or any other major league pitchers?

Jabroni
01-31-2005, 08:28 PM
Hate to dredge up an old thread, but I got to thinking about what Ray King said and decided to look up the stats of the Japan/US series to see what Iguchi did. One problem though, Iguchi didn't play! Am I missing something here? How could Ray King be unimpressed with a player he's never seen or faced??? :?:

Does anyone know if Iguchi has ever even faced off against this clown or any other major league pitchers?Yep, Iguchi was not even on Japan's team for the Japan All Star Series '04...

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/japan_series/y2004/index.jsp?content=roster_japan

Iguchi must have already been posted by his team, the Fukuoka Daiei Hawks, so he could not be on Japan's team. Ray King made a mistake. He did not face Iguchi in the Japan All Star Series '04. King probably mistakenly thought that Toshihisa Nishi or Takahiro Saeki was Tadahito Iguchi since their names are somewhat similar.

SoxxoS
01-31-2005, 08:35 PM
Yep, Iguchi was not even on Japan's team for the Japan All Star Series '04...

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/japan_series/y2004/index.jsp?content=roster_japan

Iguchi must have already been posted by his team, the Fukuoka Daiei Hawks, so he could not be on Japan's team. Ray King made a mistake. He did not face Iguchi in the Japan All Star Series '04. King probably mistakenly thought that Toshihisa Nishi or Takahiro Saeki was Tadahito Iguchi since their names are somewhat similar.

Thanks for posting this...goes to show you, you can't believe everything that you read.

Thanks Ray. You are a regular Tom Imanski.

Ol' No. 2
02-01-2005, 07:04 PM
Yep, Iguchi was not even on Japan's team for the Japan All Star Series '04...

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/japan_series/y2004/index.jsp?content=roster_japan

Iguchi must have already been posted by his team, the Fukuoka Daiei Hawks, so he could not be on Japan's team. Ray King made a mistake. He did not face Iguchi in the Japan All Star Series '04. King probably mistakenly thought that Toshihisa Nishi or Takahiro Saeki was Tadahito Iguchi since their names are somewhat similar.http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_150037.jpg Hey. I never saw them in the same place at the same time so I figured it was all the same guy.