PDA

View Full Version : Follow up: How's our Bullpen on a scale from one to ten?


Takatsufan
01-25-2005, 09:41 PM
Many people have expressed satisfaction with this year's bullpen, so I was wondering how everyone, as a whole, felt about the relief pitching?

oeo
01-25-2005, 09:43 PM
I say about an 8.5. It's pretty solid, but there are a few question marks.

Takatsufan
01-25-2005, 09:47 PM
I'd say an 8ish, like you said there are many question marks, but if they are answered, look out.:D:

FightingBillini
01-25-2005, 09:50 PM
I said 8. Nobody seems to know how good Vizcaino is. He is a stud.

Im still waiting for Lip to come in with a "2" vote and say "any team with Neil Cotts in their pen is not good".

Takatsufan
01-25-2005, 09:52 PM
I said 8. Nobody seems to know how good Vizcaino is. He is a stud.

Im still waiting for Lip to come in with a "2" vote and say "any team with Neil Cotts in their pen is not good".

Yea I kno but, some people are pessimists in a realitively positive situation

OurBitchinMinny
01-25-2005, 09:59 PM
Id say a 6.5-7. Marte has to rebound and Takatsu needs to duplicate the success he had for much of last year. Cotts is very up and down and we have to see how hermanson and vizcaino get acclimated. It has the potential to be very good, but it also has the potential to crap out I think. A lot depends on how effective takatsu is in his second year. Teams will have seen him a lot more.

nccwsfan
01-25-2005, 10:07 PM
Id say a 6.5-7. Marte has to rebound and Takatsu needs to duplicate the success he had for much of last year. Cotts is very up and down and we have to see how hermanson and vizcaino get acclimated. It has the potential to be very good, but it also has the potential to crap out I think. A lot depends on how effective takatsu is in his second year. Teams will have seen him a lot more.

I agree with Minny- a lot of the Sox' success will ride on Takatsu, and while I'm optimistic he'll have a good year it does have to be considered a question mark going in to ST. If he has the sophomore slump it could be a tougher season than we think. Again, I'm optimistic he'll be fine.

Soxzilla
01-25-2005, 10:40 PM
I have to disagree. The great thing about this bullpen is the versatility. If takatsu doesn't repeat the success of last year, we have two other guys that can step up and assume the role of closer, especially Hermanson.

Though I think it will be fine. This is the best pen we've had in a while. I think it's because we don't have anyone named Jackson, Paniagua, Ginter or Eyre in there.

chisoxmike
01-25-2005, 11:25 PM
I don't trust Neal Cotts, and Pollitte is day and night sometimes. Marte didn't start off very well in 2004, and who knows what we'll see from Visquiano, and Hermanson.

On paper its pretty good, but I'd take Adkins over Cotts any day of the week.

I voted a generous 8.

RichFitztightly
01-25-2005, 11:41 PM
I had to go with a 6. I'm basing it on the fact that I had the previous bullpen ranked really low, and a 6 is an improvement. There's just too many question marks. As a Sox fan, I'm well accustomed to the best laid plans going awry. I'm not very familiar with Hermanson or Viscaino. I don't have a ton of confidence in either Shingo or Marte, which I'll admit is based on nothing more than a gut feeling. Politte is the one I feel most confident about. I think I'll know what to expect out of him and it'll be pretty solid.

Nard
01-26-2005, 12:07 AM
Depends if people either started figuring out Shingo or if he was just getting tired/lazy/didn't have his stuff when he suffered near the end of last season.

6-7

cburns
01-26-2005, 12:42 AM
I don't think anyone has figured Shingo out. If Shingo falls behind, then he usually gets in trouble. Opposing batters can just sit on his bp fastball. I think he was fatigued at the end of the year, and hopefully he will be more acclimated to MLB season this year.

BRDSR
01-26-2005, 12:59 AM
[QUOTE=ChisoxfaninMinny]Id say a 6.5-7. Marte has to rebound and Takatsu needs to duplicate the success he had for much of last year. Cotts is very up and down and we have to see how hermanson and vizcaino get acclimated. [QUOTE]

I'm not convinced that Cotts will break camp with this team. If Ozzie decides to carry only 11 pitchers, which I think is entirely conceiveable given the strength of the starting rotation, the bullpen, and the necessity for a 7th infielder, I foresee Adkins, Cotts, and Kevin Walker fighting for the 6th spot in the pen. Thats not a fight I'm sure Cotts would win.

SpartanSoxFan
01-26-2005, 01:05 AM
I say an 8, only because I'm not convinced yet that Shingo will be as dominant as last season. If he repeats his performance and keeps batters off balance, then I give the Bullpen a 10.

Banix12
01-26-2005, 01:38 AM
7, It's only Shingo's second year here and I want to see if he has more of the same and I would like the bullpen to be a bit stronger from the Left hand side. Marte is fine, Cotts has to take a step forward.

34 Inch Stick
01-26-2005, 10:20 AM
Right now an 8. However, because bullpens are principally composed of pitchers who were not good enough to start, they tend to have high volatility from year to year.

Mickster
01-26-2005, 11:14 AM
If the Sox carry 11 pitchers out of spring training as has been speculated then one of Cotts or Adkins will not be on the 25 man roster. Considering what we had on the roster coming out of ST last year, the pen is probably the single biggest improvement on this team.

Koch, Jackson and one of Cotts/Adkins are gone, replaced with Hermanson and Vizcaino. Anyone who spends time discussing the question mark of Cotts/Adkins must realize the amount of innings are they will truly be called on to pitch this season, considering the options that Ozzie has. Cotts/Adkins could be reserved for mop-up roles for all we know....

I gave the pen an 8 for 2 reasons. First, lack of a dominant closer (Gagne/Rivera type) who is lights-out when coming into the game. Lastly, Ozzie must learn how to use the pen properly, something that he did not do too well last year.

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 12:01 PM
I gave the pen an 8 for 2 reasons. First, lack of a dominant closer (Gagne/Rivera type) who is lights-out when coming into the game. Lastly, Ozzie must learn how to use the pen properly, something that he did not do too well last year.

You are basing part of the grade on how well Ozzie uses it?

That's kinda like grading this computer on how fast I can type...

mcfish
01-26-2005, 12:12 PM
You are basing part of the grade on how well Ozzie uses it?

That's kinda like grading this computer on how fast I can type...Unfortunately, it's realistic to use Ozzie's performance in this grade. If he hadn't continued to bring out Mike Jackson with the bases loaded last year, Mike Jackson wouldn't have continued to give up 1st pitch grand slams. If he hadn't used Cotts in tight situations - like bringing him in with runners in scoring position and such, he might have had a better chance to succeed. If Adkins hadn't been used in the 10th inning early in the season, he wouldn't have served up game winning home runs multiple times.

Ozzie didn't go with the trends quickly enough or learn from his mistakes enough last year concerning the pen. If he continues with this path this year, the pen will be less effective than it could be.

Mickster
01-26-2005, 12:14 PM
Unfortunately, it's realistic to use Ozzie's performance in this grade. If he hadn't continued to bring out Mike Jackson with the bases loaded last year, Mike Jackson wouldn't have continued to give up 1st pitch grand slams. If he hadn't used Cotts in tight situations - like bringing him in with runners in scoring position and such, he might have had a better chance to succeed. If Adkins hadn't been used in the 10th inning early in the season, he wouldn't have served up game winning home runs multiple times.

Ozzie didn't go with the trends quickly enough or learn from his mistakes enough last year concerning the pen. If he continues with this path this year, the pen will be less effective than it could be.

Took the words out of my mouth. :thumbsup:

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 12:22 PM
Unfortunately, it's realistic to use Ozzie's performance in this grade. If he hadn't continued to bring out Mike Jackson with the bases loaded last year, Mike Jackson wouldn't have continued to give up 1st pitch grand slams. If he hadn't used Cotts in tight situations - like bringing him in with runners in scoring position and such, he might have had a better chance to succeed. If Adkins hadn't been used in the 10th inning early in the season, he wouldn't have served up game winning home runs multiple times.

Ozzie didn't go with the trends quickly enough or learn from his mistakes enough last year concerning the pen. If he continues with this path this year, the pen will be less effective than it could be.

Well if the guy (Cotts, Adkins) pitching before MJ wouldn't load the bases, then he would never have to be brought into that situation in the first place. It kinda balances out.

I thought we were judging the bullpen with the assumption that they would be used correctly.

Frank Thomas is still a good hitter no matter if he's used in the #3 spot or the #9 spot.

mcfish
01-26-2005, 12:42 PM
Well if the guy (Cotts, Adkins) pitching before MJ wouldn't load the bases, then he would never have to be brought into that situation in the first place. It kinda balances out.

I thought we were judging the bullpen with the assumption that they would be used correctly.

Frank Thomas is still a good hitter no matter if he's used in the #3 spot or the #9 spot.It doesn't matter how men got on the bases. There will always be situations where a reliever is brought in to bail someone else out. Mike Jackson proved time and time again that he should never be brought into a game with runners on base. Many, many times he proved this, and Ozzie kept bringing him in. Yes, the pitcher before him should have done better, but MJ was the one who let the runners in and Ozzie was the one who gave the ball to MJ. Ozzie should have brought in someone else to bail out Cotts and Adkins. Either way, Ozzie needs to recognize quicker what his pitchers can and cannot do. Holding runners was obviously not one of MJ's strengths and Ozzie never seemed to grasp that.

Frank Thomas is a great hitter in either place, but a more effective hitter in the #3 - #4 spot than #9. There should be runners on base more often for him and he should get more RBI's. And his walks should result in more scoring opportunities because the #4-#5 guy is behind him. The effectiveness of the bullpen is just as important as its ability, and it relies heavily on the manager's ability to use it correctly.

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 12:49 PM
It doesn't matter how men got on the bases. There will always be situations where a reliever is brought in to bail someone else out. Mike Jackson proved time and time again that he should never be brought into a game with runners on base. Many, many times he proved this, and Ozzie kept bringing him in. Yes, the pitcher before him should have done better, but MJ was the one who let the runners in and Ozzie was the one who gave the ball to MJ. Ozzie should have brought in someone else to bail out Cotts and Adkins. Either way, Ozzie needs to recognize quicker what his pitchers can and cannot do. Holding runners was obviously not one of MJ's strengths and Ozzie never seemed to grasp that.

Frank Thomas is a great hitter in either place, but a more effective hitter in the #3 - #4 spot than #9. There should be runners on base more often for him and he should get more RBI's. And his walks should result in more scoring opportunities because the #4-#5 guy is behind him. The effectiveness of the bullpen is just as important as its ability, and it relies heavily on the manager's ability to use it correctly.

"Mike Jackson proved time and time again that he should never be brought into a game"

I think the sentence should have ended like that. :wink:

This arguement happens all the time when judging players. Exactly which stats do you use to determine how good a player is? Being a good/great player and being an effective player are two different things IMO.

That's why pitchers shouldn't be judged soley on ERA and batters can't be judged soley on average and RBI's.

Mickster
01-26-2005, 01:07 PM
Frank Thomas is still a good hitter no matter if he's used in the #3 spot or the #9 spot.

Could you honestly say the same thing about Podsednik? Would he be just as effective batting 7 as batting 1. Would his stats potentially suffer based on how he is used?

tacosalbarojas
01-26-2005, 01:42 PM
I'd say 7-8 is a pretty fair rating at this point. Speaking of how this group looks on paper, it reminds me a lot on paper of the 2000 pen, particularly in how it has three or four guys who've had closer experience (Simas, Howry, Foulke vs. Hermanson, Marte, Politte, and Shingo). We do seem a little top heavy with setup type guys, but that's a good problem to have as opposed to watching the out-of-gas Mike Jackson trot in to difficult situations time and again. Also, that 2000 pen wound up with better guys in the setup roles with Mark and Barcelo. Remains to be seen if Cotts/Adkins or even Walker can do a good job in the mop up roles. Of course, hopefully we won't be facing too many of those situations. :smile:

As far as who makes that 11th spot, I think we'll see a rotating cast between Cotts, Adkins, Walker, maybe even Munoz or someone else who surprises in camp. We've got to think El Duque will need a rest period here and there since he hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy. Someone will probably need to step in and take his spot early in the year (whether as an extra pen guy or starter), I'd guess - I just want El Duque healthy for the stretch run.

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 01:51 PM
Could you honestly say the same thing about Podsednik? Would he be just as effective batting 7 as batting 1. Would his stats potentially suffer based on how he is used?

Depends on which stats you are talking about. He might see very many good pitches to hit without the heart of the lineup coming right behind him and his runs scored might suffer but that doesn't change how well he can hit...

My whole point (and it's nit-picky I know) is that when I determine if a player is good or not I usually don't take into consideration how they are used. I just assume that they will be used in their proper role.

Player X is good because he can get on base alot and is really fast.

Player Y is a good player because he can drive in runs and takes a lot of walks.

The Sox have a pretty good bullpen because they have guys that can get outs. If Ozzie doesn't use them to their full potential they are still a pretty good bullpen. If they have guys who can't seem get anyone out then they don't have quite as good a bullpen.

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 01:57 PM
The best way I can put it:

You could put me in the best racing car ever made and throw me into a grand prix race and I'd probably lose because I wouldn't have the driving skill.

It doesn't mean it's a bad car, I just wouldn't know how to use it properly...

:)

Mickster
01-26-2005, 02:47 PM
The best way I can put it:

You could put me in the best racing car ever made and throw me into a grand prix race and I'd probably lose because I wouldn't have the driving skill.

It doesn't mean it's a bad car, I just wouldn't know how to use it properly...

:)

I agree, but using your analogy, the racing car = the bullpen and the driver = Ozzie.

:)

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 03:02 PM
I agree, but using your analogy, the racing car = the bullpen and the driver = Ozzie.

:)

Exactly. I'm just judging the car/BP independent of the driver/Ozzie.

Anyways, I agree with your score of an 8, no matter how you calcutated it.

:D:

Mohoney
01-26-2005, 03:10 PM
Could you honestly say the same thing about Podsednik? Would he be just as effective batting 7 as batting 1. Would his stats potentially suffer based on how he is used?

I think what he's saying is that the natural ability would still be there, if not the numbers.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-26-2005, 03:11 PM
I said 8 because...

- Takastu had a solid year last year but he is not proven himself. I think he will be fine though.

- Marte and Politte need to pitch upto their ability, especially Marte. I think they will because of the added help in the pen.

- Whomever fills out the pen (Adkins, Cotts, Grilli, Munoz, Diaz, etc.) will be a huge question mark.

- Hermies and The Viz might have a hard time adjusting to the AL.

All these are minor question marks yet they still are there. Everything else seems to be just fine. If our starting rotation stays healthy, our bullpen will be fresh throughout the year because of the innings our starters are capable of eating up. A fresher bullpen leads to much better results.

Mohoney
01-26-2005, 03:26 PM
I voted 8, and here's why. I have wanted a bullpen with no weak links for a long time now, and now I think we finally have one.

The bullpen was a glaring weakness last year that needed drastic improvement. Money was spent, trades were made, and it has been revamped.

Kenny recognized that our team ERA of 13th in the AL was the real problem here, and he really did a good job shoring up this staff.

Last year, I only had confidence in three guys (Shingo, Marte, and Politte) being able to throw scoreless outings more often than not. Now, I have confidence in five guys.

When Ol' No. 2 talks about the "oh ****" test, I think he is dead on the money. This year, we have five guys that, in my opinion, pass the "oh ****" test. If we had six guys that passed the "oh ****" test, I would have given the bullpen a 10, but with five guys, it's an 8.