PDA

View Full Version : Kudos to JR?


BRDSR
01-25-2005, 06:59 PM
Alright, let me preface this with saying that I'm not 100% sure on the numbers and that I'm certainly not a JR lover, but...I think some of the kudos that we've been giving KW on this board need to find there way to JR. Maybe just a very small percentage.

According to DugoutDollars(http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html) last years payroll was a little under $72 million. With the signing of Iguchi our payroll should be right around $75 million, as high as anybody on this board was reasonably guessing that the payroll might be. For awhile now people have been complaining about JR raising ticket prices without raising payroll and although $3 million isn't a real impressive figure, we can't assume that there isn't room to add a little payroll midseason, especially if attendance figures are good.

Although I wouldn't say that JR deserves some sort of ringing endorsement for his offseason performance, he has put a little money at risk here to put all the pieces together to make a solid ballclub. I wouldn't be surprised if JR had to sign off on the Iguchi signing, as that was putting his payroll right to the edge, and JR went ahead and said it was okay. So, kudos to JR for allowing KW to do a lot of great work! :gulp:

Mingo
01-25-2005, 07:11 PM
Yeah, and it game him a coronary. :cool:

JUribe1989
01-25-2005, 07:29 PM
I give JR a ton of credit, he definitely deserves it!

MisterB
01-25-2005, 08:28 PM
Alright, let me preface this with saying that I'm not 100% sure on the numbers and that I'm certainly not a JR lover, but...I think some of the kudos that we've been giving KW on this board need to find there way to JR. Maybe just a very small percentage.

According to DugoutDollars(http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html) last years payroll was a little under $72 million. With the signing of Iguchi our payroll should be right around $75 million, as high as anybody on this board was reasonably guessing that the payroll might be. For awhile now people have been complaining about JR raising ticket prices without raising payroll and although $3 million isn't a real impressive figure, we can't assume that there isn't room to add a little payroll midseason, especially if attendance figures are good.

Although I wouldn't say that JR deserves some sort of ringing endorsement for his offseason performance, he has put a little money at risk here to put all the pieces together to make a solid ballclub. I wouldn't be surprised if JR had to sign off on the Iguchi signing, as that was putting his payroll right to the edge, and JR went ahead and said it was okay. So, kudos to JR for allowing KW to do a lot of great work! :gulp:

I think you're comparing the wrong numbers here. None of us knows how much the Sox will pay in benefits, so comparing Total Payroll (w/o benefits & tax) would be more accurate. On that count, the Sox went from $64.18M last year to an estimated $72M this year, or an almost $8M increase.

Baby Fisk
01-26-2005, 08:37 AM
If I could only be in the room when Lipman and Voodoochile read the title of this thread... :cool:

Hangar18
01-26-2005, 10:21 AM
According to DugoutDollars(http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html) last years payroll was a little under $72 million. With the signing of Iguchi our payroll should be right around $75 million, as high as anybody on this board was reasonably guessing that the payroll might be.


If they had KEPT Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez (theoretically) and taking
into account all the "raises" due other players, THEN went out and picked
up all these players ............ "Raising" the payroll, I would give "kudos"
to Uncle Jerry. HOWEVER, The SOX simply played a Monetary Shell Game with Fans and the Payroll, moving salary and replacing it with salary.
YES, the salary did go up
a bit, but not without KW begging for it. Jerry gets no kudos from me.

Dont get me wrong, its good to be fiscally conscious and not spend Wildly
for the sake of spending (see Ny Mets), and the SOX do deserve some
credit for not going Hog Wild with salary also, but theres a time to spend and
the sox missed the train numerous times when they couldve spent and gone
over the top. They are the 180 degree opposite of the Mets when it comes to money, when all this team really needed was just a few more million spent wisely, and we'd have been to the SERIES a few times by now .......

MisterB
01-26-2005, 10:27 AM
If they had KEPT Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez (theoretically) and taking
into account all the "raises" due other players, THEN went out and picked
up all these players ............ "Raising" the payroll, I would give "kudos"
to Uncle Jerry. They simply played a Shell Game with Fans and the Payroll,
moving salary and replacing it with salary. YES, the salary did go up
a bit, but not without KW begging for it. Jerry gets no kudos from me.

Dont get me wrong, its good to be fiscally conscious and not spend Wildly
for the sake of spending (see Ny Mets), but theres a time to spend and
the sox missed the train numerous times when they couldve spent and gone
over the top.

Whoa. Didn't see this post coming...:rolleyes:

anewman35
01-26-2005, 10:28 AM
If they had KEPT Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez (theoretically) and taking
into account all the "raises" due other players, THEN went out and picked
up all these players ............ "Raising" the payroll, I would give "kudos"
to Uncle Jerry. They simply played a Shell Game with Fans and the Payroll,
moving salary and replacing it with salary. YES, the salary did go up
a bit, but not without KW begging for it. Jerry gets no kudos from me.


Hanger, how many times does it need to be explained - "payroll" means, simply, how much money the team is spending. Is the team spending more this year? They they've raised payroll.

And the whole "but not without KW begging for it" doesn't make much sense to me either. If you ask your boss for a raise, and he says no, then you beg, and he says "ok", your boss wouldn't deserve any kudos?

And last I checked, $8 million was more than a bit...

Hangar18
01-26-2005, 10:36 AM
Hanger, how many times does it need to be explained - "payroll" means, simply, how much money the team is spending. Is the team spending more this year? They they've raised payroll.

And the whole "but not without KW begging for it" doesn't make much sense to me either. If you ask your boss for a raise, and he says no, then you beg, and he says "ok", your boss wouldn't deserve any kudos?

And last I checked, $8 million was more than a bit...

OK, lets ask this. If we'd have kept Maggs and Caballo .....AND
added all of these other players, what would our Payroll be? (assuming
Maggs was ok of course)

Mickster
01-26-2005, 10:37 AM
YES, the salary did go up
a bit, but not without KW begging for it. Jerry gets no kudos from me........

Where's your proof? How do you know that JR didn't set payroll at $75M all along?


Dont get me wrong, its good to be fiscally conscious and not spend Wildly
for the sake of spending (see Ny Mets), and the SOX do deserve some
credit for not going Hog Wild with salary also, .......

:thud:

jabrch
01-26-2005, 10:40 AM
The payroll goes up 8mm...and someone bitches about it. :whiner:

Baby Fisk
01-26-2005, 10:42 AM
OK, lets ask this. If we'd have kept Maggs and Caballo .....AND
added all of these other players, what would our Payroll be? (assuming
Maggs was ok of course)
Then we'd have 5 or 6 outfielders to choose from on any given day!

:ozzie
"I tell you what, that's some pretty messed up ****."

HomeFish
01-26-2005, 10:43 AM
Kudos for what? Putting the Sox in the position of being a small-market team in the first place?

If things had gone differently early in his reign, 75 million would be considered a huge cut in payroll for this team.

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 10:44 AM
OK, lets ask this. If we'd have kept Maggs and Caballo .....AND
added all of these other players, what would our Payroll be? (assuming
Maggs was ok of course)

If we kept Maggs and Carlos we wouldn't need guys like Pods and Dye.






Well, with Magglio we still would because we'd be paying him 14 million to sit on the bench...

Ol' No. 2
01-26-2005, 10:45 AM
If we kept Maggs and Carlos we wouldn't need guys like Pods and Dye.






Well, with Magglio we still would because we'd be paying him 14 million to sit on the bench...And we'd still be finishing 2nd.

Flight #24
01-26-2005, 10:46 AM
OK, lets ask this. If we'd have kept Maggs and Caballo .....AND
added all of these other players, what would our Payroll be? (assuming
Maggs was ok of course)

Neglecting the fact that we'd be trying to play ARow, CLee, Maggs, Pods, Dye (hey - can anyone play 3d?), it would have to be our current $75mil + 8mil(Clee + $14mil(Maggs) = $97mil.

If you assume that they wouldn't have signed Dye or traded for Pods/Vizcaino, then you'd reduce payroll by $4.5(Dye), .5(Pods), and about 1(Vizcaino) = $6mil, so you'd be at $91mil and hoping that ARow/Iguchi/Uribe can lead off or that you can hit enough HRs to compensate.

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 10:47 AM
Kudos for what? Putting the Sox in the position of being a small-market team in the first place?

If things had gone differently early in his reign, 75 million would be considered a huge cut in payroll for this team.

The past is the past. People can't change?

Geez, JR is finally spending some money on this team (obviously not enough to keep everyone happy) and people still complain about it.

The Sox could go 162-0, sweep the playoffs and somebody would still find something to bitch about...

Flight #24
01-26-2005, 10:48 AM
If things had gone differently early in his reign, 75 million would be considered a huge cut in payroll for this team.

And if Frank & Maggs hadn't gotten hurt last year, we'd be celebrating a title and talking about how we replaced Maggs with Beltran.

See how much fun the "what-if" game can be?

gosox41
01-26-2005, 10:50 AM
If they had KEPT Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez (theoretically) and taking
into account all the "raises" due other players, THEN went out and picked
up all these players ............ "Raising" the payroll, I would give "kudos"
to Uncle Jerry. HOWEVER, The SOX simply played a Monetary Shell Game with Fans and the Payroll, moving salary and replacing it with salary.
YES, the salary did go up
a bit, but not without KW begging for it. Jerry gets no kudos from me.

Dont get me wrong, its good to be fiscally conscious and not spend Wildly
for the sake of spending (see Ny Mets), and the SOX do deserve some
credit for not going Hog Wild with salary also, but theres a time to spend and
the sox missed the train numerous times when they couldve spent and gone
over the top. They are the 180 degree opposite of the Mets when it comes to money, when all this team really needed was just a few more million spent wisely, and we'd have been to the SERIES a few times by now .......

And they had 180 degree opposite season as the Mets did in 2004.

Also, do you know for certain that KW had 'to beg' JR for money.

Last (and I don't think you've answered this) are you sure you're not a poltician?


Bob

MisterB
01-26-2005, 11:01 AM
Last (and I don't think you've answered this) are you sure you're not a poltician?


Bob

Well, he was WhiteSoxWilkes' runningmate for president in '04. :D:

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 11:03 AM
Well, he was WhiteSoxWilkes' runningmate for president in '04. :D:

I wrote them in when I voted.

:)

anewman35
01-26-2005, 11:32 AM
OK, lets ask this. If we'd have kept Maggs and Caballo .....AND
added all of these other players, what would our Payroll be? (assuming
Maggs was ok of course)

Why not add Carlos Beltran and Randy Johnson, while we're at it!

Yes, if we kept them, AND added all these players, payroll would be higher than it is. That doesn't change the fact that it's higher than it was last year even without these players.

Flight #24
01-26-2005, 11:35 AM
Why not add Carlos Beltran and Randy Johnson, while we're at it!

Yes, if we kept them, AND added all these players, payroll would be higher than it is. That doesn't change the fact that it's higher than it was last year even without these players.

Haven't we gone up roughly 50% in payroll in 2 years? (IIRC, 2003 was about $50mil, no?)

Jeez. That doesn't count as an increase? Remember, if you use the season-ending 2004 salary, you neglect salary taken on during the season, which should count since those guy do, last I checked, receive actual paychecks.

Iwritecode
01-26-2005, 11:54 AM
Haven't we gone up roughly 50% in payroll in 2 years? (IIRC, 2003 was about $50mil, no?)

Jeez. That doesn't count as an increase? Remember, if you use the season-ending 2004 salary, you neglect salary taken on during the season, which should count since those guy do, last I checked, receive actual paychecks.

Comparing the payroll from the beginning of last year to the beginning of this year it has gone up. Period.

Whether it be from raises, new contracts or adding new players...

OurBitchinMinny
01-26-2005, 02:28 PM
kudos to JR? Hell no. Not till he sells. he has done way more to hurt this franchise then help it

Realist
01-26-2005, 03:01 PM
I was thinking about giving JR some of the credit and then I saw this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=chw). Maybe there's a good explanation, but I find it very difficult to believe that the Chicago White Sox shouldn't have a payroll that isn't at least on a par with St. Louis and San Fransisco.

anewman35
01-26-2005, 03:19 PM
I was thinking about giving JR some of the credit and then I saw this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=chw). Maybe there's a good explanation, but I find it very difficult to believe that the Chicago White Sox shouldn't have a payroll that isn't at least on a par with St. Louis and San Fransisco.

Here's the only explanation that's needed: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

mweflen
01-26-2005, 03:51 PM
It's about time that payroll increases begin to keep pace with price increases. All JR's talk about a world series being his most cherished dream stank of BS until this year...

So no JR kudos from me. JR receives the "about freaking time award" from me.

DaleJRFan
01-26-2005, 04:20 PM
Here's the only explanation that's needed: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Heck, at least we are the highest draw in our division. Hard to believe the Brewers and the Rockies outdraw the Sox...

mweflen
01-26-2005, 04:24 PM
I was thinking about giving JR some of the credit and then I saw this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=chw). Maybe there's a good explanation, but I find it very difficult to believe that the Chicago White Sox shouldn't have a payroll that isn't at least on a par with St. Louis and San Fransisco.

Thise ESPN lists just keep getting more and more whack by the passing minute! Now, on our "2004" payroll, we have Magglio and Jermaine Dye (listed at $11 mil plus), Mike Jackson and Kevin Walker, Jerry Hairston is still for some reason getting 1.25 mil from us...

Do blind cigar-smoking ESPN monkeys compile these lists? Yeesh!

I don't think we should be basing arguments on such wildly inaccurate lists, as valid as the arguments themselves might be.

rdivaldi
01-26-2005, 04:40 PM
The true opening day salaries in 2004 can be found here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1778397).

I'm not in any way suggesting that we give JR a Bozo Button for raising the payroll in 2005, but it has gone up a pretty significant amount. Whether or not that translates to wins is another story.

Hangar18
01-27-2005, 06:03 PM
Also, do you know for certain that KW had 'to beg' JR for money.

Last (and I don't think you've answered this) are you sure you're not a poltician?

Bob


Bob, I do know for Certain (something I knew all along)
that KW "begged" Uncle Jerry for the money, he said so on the Radio this afternoon.
And Yes, I ran for office as Wilkes running-mate heh heh

Palehose13
01-27-2005, 06:25 PM
Bob, I do know for Certain (something I knew all along)
that KW "begged" Uncle Jerry for the money, he said so on the Radio this afternoon.

Yep. That was said by KW this afternoon. Kudos to JR for giving it to him! :tongue:

gosox41
01-28-2005, 08:20 AM
Bob, I do know for Certain (something I knew all along)
that KW "begged" Uncle Jerry for the money, he said so on the Radio this afternoon.
And Yes, I ran for office as Wilkes running-mate heh heh

Ididn't hear KW say that, but could it have been in jest?

Also, if you ever do run for the office I'll be sure not to vote for you because I'd love to hear you say an increase in taxes isn't an inrease at all even if I do pay more money.:D:



Bob

gosox41
01-28-2005, 08:21 AM
Yep. That was said by KW this afternoon. Kudos to JR for giving it to him! :tongue:

So Hangar has ESP? He just said it this afternoon yet Hangar made this comment a few days ago.:D:


Bob

idseer
01-28-2005, 08:30 AM
personally i will NEVER give jr kudos for anything.

look at the big picture guys. he has been a thorn in this team's side for over 20 years. the fact he has allowed enough money this year to rise to the level of a mid-level team doesn't impress me much.
god! how quickly you seem to forget the crap he's put on this team and baseball in general! you are like leaves in the wind.

kw deserves all the accolades we can afford him for what he's done with jerry's constraints, but jerry???

SELL THE TEAM DORK!

Dan H
01-28-2005, 08:32 AM
I like the general direction this team is going but I don't think it is time to pass out credit yet. Not one game has been played. Not to mention that the Sox won the division in '83 and had only one winning season for the rest of the decade, won the division in '93, and then came '94 and then contended for nothing for the rest of the '90's, and have underachieved since the divison crown of 2000. It is no time to take credit. It's time to deliver and that will include getting an additional player or two if needed in the mid-season. I'll give kudos when I see Mark Buerhle on the mound throwing the first pitch of the World Series.

SoxFanTillDeath
01-28-2005, 09:35 AM
Hey idseer...

:reinsy
Do I need to Cell, I mean Sell.
Your thoughts...

idseer
01-28-2005, 11:46 AM
Hey idseer...


Do I need to Cell, I mean Sell.
Your thoughts...

my thoughts on what?

mweflen
01-28-2005, 11:51 AM
oh, the injokes they are a-flying...

idseer
01-28-2005, 12:05 PM
oh, the injokes they are a-flying...

that was an 'in' joke?

maybe an 'inbred' joke.

mweflen
01-28-2005, 12:29 PM
that was an 'in' joke?

maybe an 'inbred' joke.

someone's sig (i forget whose) links to the "worst thread ever!" It is a thread containing the Do you think I chould Cell "joke" post.

Ho ho.

idseer
01-28-2005, 01:53 PM
someone's sig (i forget whose) links to the "worst thread ever!" It is a thread containing the Do you think I chould Cell "joke" post.

Ho ho.

yes, i saw the thread. i just can't figure why this death dude brought it up. and why you thought it was a joke.

pudge
01-28-2005, 02:30 PM
personally i will NEVER give jr kudos for anything.



Well there you go, no point in really having much of a discussion huh? He did win 6 NBA titles, so you'd never give him any credit if the Sox won a title?

mweflen
01-28-2005, 02:35 PM
Well there you go, no point in really having much of a discussion huh? He did win 6 NBA titles, so you'd never give him any credit if the Sox won a title?

IIRC, Jerry Reinsdorf didn't personally win 6 NBA titles. Word on the street is he has a lousy jumpshot, and his conditioning isn't what it used to be.

I didn't say it was a funny joke, idseer, yeesh. I was just explaining it. :dtroll:

idseer
01-28-2005, 03:03 PM
Well there you go, no point in really having much of a discussion huh? He did win 6 NBA titles, so you'd never give him any credit if the Sox won a title?

i don't give him much credit for the bulls. in fact he had a hand in turning the bulls into what they became post jordan. i give jordan, pippen, & phil most of the credit for that team success. at best, he was a lucky owner in the right place at the right time.

and you're correct. i don't have much to discuss about my feelings toward the dork.

CubKilla
01-28-2005, 03:18 PM
If they had KEPT Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez (theoretically) and taking
into account all the "raises" due other players, THEN went out and picked
up all these players ............ "Raising" the payroll, I would give "kudos"
to Uncle Jerry. HOWEVER, The SOX simply played a Monetary Shell Game with Fans and the Payroll, moving salary and replacing it with salary.
YES, the salary did go up
a bit, but not without KW begging for it. Jerry gets no kudos from me.

That says my feelings the best. KW, if anybody, deserves all of the credit for working around JR's "small market" financial restriction.

flo-B-flo
01-28-2005, 09:10 PM
personally i will NEVER give jr kudos for anything.

look at the big picture guys. he has been a thorn in this team's side for over 20 years. the fact he has allowed enough money this year to rise to the level of a mid-level team doesn't impress me much.
god! how quickly you seem to forget the crap he's put on this team and baseball in general! you are like leaves in the wind.

kw deserves all the accolades we can afford him for what he's done with jerry's constraints, but jerry???

SELL THE TEAM DORK! Until they win it all the chickenhawk gets NO kudos here. And ...........SELL!!!

wassagstdu
01-29-2005, 09:23 AM
I really like this team and the direction it is moving. That won't change if they don't win it all in 2005. I think JR had a concept for the last 15 years that the Sox could be built like the Bulls: plant a star (FT) in the center and surround him with a supporting cast that increases his value. He has now been convinced that that strategy doesn't work in baseball -- or at least won't work with FT any more -- and moved to a different model. That's to his credit.

That strategic error of the last 15 years aside, I also credit JR for refusing to sell the Sox soul to the devil (after a few abortive tries (Belle, ...)). Limiting the payroll makes sense for a south side of Chicago team. The fan base would not take to a bunch of millionaires with attitude if that is what a big market payroll produced -- unless they won it all, and even then it would last only until the first losing streak the following year. A scrappy, working class team is better. (Am I wrong? I have been away from Chicago for a while.) Think how much worse things could be. Look at the Mets, the Marlins ($52 MM for a DH in the NL, who refuses to stand for "God Bless America"???), the Orioles.

I have agreed with a lot of what I have read here about JR being the problem, but not any more.

:fsock :ozzie