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Nick@Nite
01-23-2005, 04:26 PM
I've been surfing the net, looking for different Sox stuff, when I stumbled across the following from the below website...

"The club adopted the name "White Stockings", the original name of the Chicago Cubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Cubs), and acquired a number of stars from the National League, including pitcher and manager Clark Griffith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Griffith), who paced the White Sox to the AL's first pennant in 1901 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_White_Sox

My (rhetorical) question is, "the Cubs called themselves the White Stockings before calling themselves the Cubs?" :?: I can't decide whether or not this bums me out.

Someone help me out on this... the Cubs where the "White Sox" before becoming the Cubs? :dunno:

Btw, WSI is listed as an external link... located at the very bottom. :cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2005, 04:29 PM
The Cubs were never known as the White Sox. They were once known as the White Stockings.

Comiskey copied the White Stockings name after the Flubs abandoned it. Later the press shortened it to simply White Sox.

I'm sure Hal has already responded to this. He is faster at the keyboard than me.
:cool:

TornLabrum
01-23-2005, 04:37 PM
I've been surfing the net, looking for different Sox stuff, when I stumbled across the following from the below website...

"The club adopted the name "White Stockings", the original name of the Chicago Cubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Cubs), and acquired a number of stars from the National League, including pitcher and manager Clark Griffith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Griffith), who paced the White Sox to the AL's first pennant in 1901 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_White_Sox

My (rhetorical) question is, "the Cubs called themselves the White Stockings before calling themselves the Cubs?" :?: I can't decide whether or not this bums me out.

Someone help me out on this... the Cubs where the "White Sox" before becoming the Cubs? :dunno:

Btw, WSI is listed as an external link... located at the very bottom. :cool:

This is approximately the 93rd thread on the subject in the past month! :D:

Here's the history. Chicago's first professional baseball club was called the White Stockings. They joined the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players in 1971, but were force to leave that league for two years after the Chicago fire.

They played in the NA in 1874-75 and then their owner William Hulbert decided to hijack a bunch of star players from the Boston Red Stockings, including pitcher Al Spalding. He and Spalding then got together and to prevent retaliation drew up a constitution for a new league, the National League of Professional Base Ball Clubs. The White Stockings were a charter member.

By the 1880s, with a team of young players managed by player-manager Cap Anson, they became known as the Colts. When Anson was unceremoniously dismissed around 1899, they became known as the Orphans or Remnants. (In those days, newspapers pretty much determined team names. They became the Cubs about 1904 when Frank Selee put together another team of young stars led by Frank Chance.

Meanwhile, Charles Comiskey had been running a team in the Western Association in St. Paul. After the 1899 season, the league decided to move into some larger cities, including some that had been abandoned over the years by the NL (including some that had been abandoned after the 1899 season) and changing its name to the American League. Comiskey tried to move the Saints to Chicago, but was resisted by the Orphans' owner who insisted on invoking his territorial rights. (The AL was still operating under terms of the National Agreement.)

Comiskey and league president Ban Johnson finally convinced the NL club's owner to let them play in Chicago, but only under two conditions:
1) They not play north of 35th St. (which was fine because Comiskey had a spot picked out on 39th St.--now Pershing Rd.--between Princeton and Wentworth).
2) They not use the name Chicago in identifying the club.

Comiskey responded to this second condition by naming his club the White Stockings, the old Cubs name. In 1902, headliners shortened this to White Sox.

TornLabrum
01-23-2005, 04:38 PM
The Cubs were never known as the White Sox. They were once known as the White Stockings.

Comiskey copied the White Stockings name after the Flubs abandoned it. Later the press shortened it to simply White Sox.

I'm sure Hal has already responded to this. He is faster at the keyboard than me.
:cool:

You beat me to it, but mine was longer.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2005, 04:47 PM
You beat me to it, but mine was longer.

:neener:

Nick@Nite
01-23-2005, 04:51 PM
:worship:
The Cubs were never known as the White Sox. They were once known as the White Stockings.

Comiskey copied the White Stockings name after the Flubs abandoned it. Later the press shortened it to simply White Sox.

I'm sure Hal has already responded to this. He is faster at the keyboard than me.
:worship:
You beat me to it, but mine was longer.

Thanks guys, for talking me back from the ledge. :D:

Seriously, I really like the old, old grainy stuff regarding Sox history. :cool:

Armed with thy knowledge I shall spread the gospel. :)

I want Mags back
01-23-2005, 05:21 PM
This is approximately the 93rd thread on the subject in the past month! :D:

Here's the history. Chicago's first professional baseball club was called the White Stockings. They joined the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players in 1971, but were force to leave that league for two years after the Chicago fire.

They played in the NA in 1874-75 and then their owner William Hulbert decided to hijack a bunch of star players from the Boston Red Stockings, including pitcher Al Spalding. He and Spalding then got together and to prevent retaliation drew up a constitution for a new league, the National League of Professional Base Ball Clubs. The White Stockings were a charter member.

By the 1880s, with a team of young players managed by player-manager Cap Anson, they became known as the Colts. When Anson was unceremoniously dismissed around 1899, they became known as the Orphans or Remnants. (In those days, newspapers pretty much determined team names. They became the Cubs about 1904 when Frank Selee put together another team of young stars led by Frank Chance.

Meanwhile, Charles Comiskey had been running a team in the Western Association in St. Paul. After the 1899 season, the league decided to move into some larger cities, including some that had been abandoned over the years by the NL (including some that had been abandoned after the 1899 season) and changing its name to the American League. Comiskey tried to move the Saints to Chicago, but was resisted by the Orphans' owner who insisted on invoking his territorial rights. (The AL was still operating under terms of the National Agreement.)

Comiskey and league president Ban Johnson finally convinced the NL club's owner to let them play in Chicago, but only under two conditions:
1) They not play north of 35th St. (which was fine because Comiskey had a spot picked out on 39th St.--now Pershing Rd.--between Princeton and Wentworth).
2) They not use the name Chicago in identifying the club.

Comiskey responded to this second condition by naming his club the White Stockings, the old Cubs name. In 1902, headliners shortened this to White Sox.

I'm pretty sure it was 1871

row18
01-23-2005, 05:25 PM
This may be off topic but, has the Red Sox ever used just "SOX" on their jerseys? One the other hand, the REAL SOX always, that's why I hate it when someone refers to them as the SOX. The White Sox are the only SOX.

The Wunsch
01-23-2005, 05:36 PM
Before moving to west side park (by uic) in 1893, did'nt the White Stockings play on the south side.

I though that played a role in Comiskey choosing the White Stockings as the name for our team.

Clembasbal
01-23-2005, 05:42 PM
I've been surfing the net, looking for different Sox stuff, when I stumbled across the following from the below website...

"The club adopted the name "White Stockings", the original name of the Chicago Cubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Cubs), and acquired a number of stars from the National League, including pitcher and manager Clark Griffith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Griffith), who paced the White Sox to the AL's first pennant in 1901 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_White_Sox

My (rhetorical) question is, "the Cubs called themselves the White Stockings before calling themselves the Cubs?" :?: I can't decide whether or not this bums me out.

Someone help me out on this... the Cubs where the "White Sox" before becoming the Cubs? :dunno:

Btw, WSI is listed as an external link... located at the very bottom. :cool:

There is a book called, "Bury My Heart at Wrigley Field: The History of the Chicago Cubs - When the Cubs Were the White Sox" by Larry D. Names. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Larry%20D.%20Names/002-2196834-4080820)

It is a good read, I actually have it in my house (Dad is a die hard cub fan). It will tell you a lot about the question you are asking.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2005, 05:54 PM
This may be off topic but, has the Red Sox ever used just "SOX" on their jerseys? One the other hand, the REAL SOX always, that's why I hate it when someone refers to them as the SOX. The White Sox are the only SOX.

No. No! No!!!

The Red Sox have NEVER used the simple term "Sox" anywhere on their uniforms. Not ever... going all the way back to 1901 when they were known as the Boston Americans... then Somersets... then Pilgrims... catchy names one and all, I'm sure you'll agree.
:roflmao:

Not even one time in their 104 year existence has Boston worn anything adorned simply "Sox." In utter contrast, the Sox have worn exactly this nearly every season the last 94 years -- all except five: 1942 and 1987-90. The Sox began wearing "Sox" on their uniforms back in 1911! Learn all about it right here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2104). Who loves ya, baby!

Anyone claiming the Red Sox have a rightful claim to the moniker "Sox" is a ****ing idiot and they need to be told so straight to their face.

All this bull**** about how smart New Englanders are about their baseball is put to the torch by the simple fact these insufferable jerks keep right on using our moniker for their team.
:mad:

Now go out there and PREACH the Good News of Sox Baseball! Godspeed to you, Sox Fans!
:bandance:

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2005, 05:56 PM
Before moving to west side park (by uic) in 1893, did'nt the White Stockings play on the south side.

No. Not ever. You're very confused.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2005, 05:58 PM
There is a book called, "Bury My Heart at Wrigley Field: The History of the Chicago Cubs - When the Cubs Were the White Sox" by Larry D. Names. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Larry%20D.%20Names/002-2196834-4080820)

It is a good read, I actually have it in my house (Dad is a die hard cub fan). It will tell you a lot about the question you are asking.

He's a ****ing Cub fan and a ****ing idiot, too. Anyone wasting their time or money on such a piece of **** as this needs to have their head examined.

The ****ing Cubs were NEVER known as the White Sox and only a ****ing idiot would be dumb enough to state so in the title of a book he wrote.

Jeeeezus... did the Cubs Convention let out early this evening?
:?:

Nick@Nite
01-23-2005, 06:38 PM
The Red Sox have NEVER used the simple term "Sox" anywhere on their uniforms. Not ever... going all the way back to 1901 when they were known as the Boston Americans... then Somersets... then Pilgrims... catchy names one and all, I'm sure you'll agree.
:roflmao:

Not even one time in their 104 year existence has Boston worn anything adorned simply "Sox." In utter contrast, the Sox have worn exactly this nearly every season the last 94 years -- all except five: 1942 and 1987-90. The Sox began wearing "Sox" on their uniforms back in 1911! Learn all about it right here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2104). Who loves ya, baby!

Armed with thy knowledge I shall spread the gospel. :)

TommyJohn
01-23-2005, 06:51 PM
He's a ****ing Cub fan and a ****ing idiot, too. Anyone wasting their time or money on such a piece of **** as this needs to have their head examined.

The ****ing Cubs were NEVER known as the White Sox and only a ****ing idiot would be dumb enough to state so in the title of a book he wrote.

Jeeeezus... did the Cubs Convention let out early this evening?
:?:

OK, OK. Calm down.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2005, 06:53 PM
OK, OK. Calm down.

If I calmed down, there wouldn't be a website.
:wink:

The Wunsch
01-23-2005, 07:07 PM
No. Not ever. You're very confused.



23rd Street Grounds:


1876-1877 Located at 23rd and State Streets in Chicago Illinois
First N.L. Game: May 10, 1876 Chicago 6, Cincinnati 0
South Side Park: (then called Brotherhood Park)


1891-1893 Located at 35th and Wentworth streets in Chicago Illinois
First N.L. Game: May 5, 1981 Chicago 1, Pittsburgh 0

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2005, 07:28 PM
23rd Street Grounds:



1876-1877 Located at 23rd and State Streets in ChicagoIllinois
First N.L. Game: May 10, 1876Chicago 6, Cincinnati 0
SouthSidePark: (then called Brotherhood Park)


1891-1893 Located at 35th and Wentworth streets in ChicagoIllinois
First N.L. Game: May 5, 1981Chicago 1, Pittsburgh 0



My apologies. Before the modern era, the Cubs nee Colts, nee Orphans, nee White Stockings spent parts of five seasons playing on the near South Side.


Of course they were a winning franchise back then, too.
:cool:

zach074
01-23-2005, 07:37 PM
The Cubs should go back to calling themselves the orphans.

TornLabrum
01-23-2005, 09:00 PM
I'm pretty sure it was 1871

Yeah, well, 9 is next to 8 on the keyboard.

TornLabrum
01-23-2005, 09:05 PM
No. Not ever. You're very confused.

The Chicago Pirates of the Players League played at a ball park that partly occupied right field of old Comiskey Park in 1890, iirc. That may be what you're thinking about.

The White Stockings/Colts/Orphans/Cubs played mostly downtown (Michigan and Randolph) and on the West Side, except for the brief interval noted.

The Wunsch
01-23-2005, 10:31 PM
The Chicago Pirates of the Players League played at a ball park that partly occupied right field of old Comiskey Park in 1890, iirc. That may be what you're thinking about.

The White Stockings/Colts/Orphans/Cubs played mostly downtown (Michigan and Randolph) and on the West Side, except for the brief interval noted.

was comiskey involved with the pirates at all????? anyone???

TornLabrum
01-23-2005, 10:33 PM
was comiskey involved with the pirates at all????? anyone???

He was player-manager of the Pirates.

SOXintheBURGH
01-23-2005, 11:39 PM
I don't talk to New Englanders. What's their reason for claiming the SOX moniker? Cause they sold Babe Ruth?

npdempse
01-24-2005, 01:46 AM
RE:The original question--

I'd been wondering the same lately, as Bill James in the Historical Baseball Abstract does refer to the White Stockings as the White Sox. This thread prompted me to pull out Spink's The National Game (reprint of a 1911 book) to see what the nomenclature of a contemporary looks like. Indeed, he's very consistent about referring to the National League team as the White Stockings, and Comiskey's boys as the Sox; the NL team is NEVER the Sox.

BTW, for old-timey Sox arcana (including the Royal Gorge pic of the 1910 team and a neat bio of Ed Walsh) and plenty on Comiskey, this is a great book; It doesn't make for much of a cover-to-cover read, though.

Baby Fisk
01-24-2005, 01:10 PM
He was player-manager of the Pirates.

That's correct. The Player's League (also known as the Brotherhood) lasted only one season -- 1890 -- before folding. Comiskey's team played on the southside, at 35th and Wentworth.

I'm reading a reprint of a 1918 biography of Comiskey at the moment (totally biased book review coming soon). It clearly outlines Comiskey's baseball career from player to player-manager to owner.

Can anyone answer this question: Is Charles Comiskey the only major league player to become a team owner? :?:

npdempse
01-24-2005, 01:34 PM
T

Can anyone answer this question: Is Charles Comiskey the only major league player to become a team owner? :?:

No: Connie Mack. And I think there are others, but can't tell you off the top of my head. Didn't McGraw own at least part of a team at some point.

Baby Fisk
01-24-2005, 01:41 PM
No: Connie Mack. And I think there are others, but can't tell you off the top of my head. Didn't McGraw own at least part of a team at some point.

Connie Mack, thank you. Not sure about McGraw tho.

Obscure Connie Mack trivia: his real name was Cornelius Macgillicuddy.

TornLabrum
01-24-2005, 07:42 PM
No: Connie Mack. And I think there are others, but can't tell you off the top of my head. Didn't McGraw own at least part of a team at some point.

And long before him Al Spalding who owned the White Stockings.