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View Full Version : Soxfest hypocrisy or spin job?


Jerome
01-19-2005, 12:00 AM
Something Ozzie said this past weekend really got me angry. :mad:

It was brought up on a Boers and Bernstein interview today, but I did not catch the whole interview so I may be missing something.

Ozzie said, when asked about the Torriid Hunter incident, (paraphrasing) "the one guy who had a chance to do something isn't here anymore (Lee)"

Excuse me Ozzie, but weren't you the one who went out of his way to praise Hunter for 'playing the game the right way', while sox fans were fuming that there was no retalitation?

It appears that Ozzie was being kind of hypocritical by not retaliating, then getting mad at Lee for not retaliating doesn't it?

Of course I believe that Ozzie is much, much smarter than that. The real reason these comments were made were purely to stab Lee in the back and help justify the trade. Ozzie was just adding to the enormous spinjob/smear campagin against Carlos, a smear campaign that was created only AFTER he was traded.

How come we never heard anything about how Lee was such a Clubhouse cancer while Lee was actually on the team? How come AFTER he gets traded for an inferior player it comes out that Lee is a terrible teammate/human being? (Similar things were said about Olivo after the Freddy trade, but I don't want Jeremy Reed's name to corrupt this thread)

If Ozzie was so disappointed that Carlos didn't retaliate, why didn't he retalite himself? He was too busy complementing Hunter, that's why.

I'm not bashing the trade. It appears already that it was a decent trade b/c Orlando Hernandez/Pierzynzski. But why are we still bashing Carlos Lee? How come suddenly after a player is traded does it come out that he was a terrible person? I remember Buhrle on MJ&H had nothing bad to say about Lee.

Instead of trying to justify an obviously one-sided (at the time) Lee for Pods trade by bashing Lee's character, how about just saying all the good that came from the trade (El Duque, Pierzynski, etc) and leaving it at that? It comes across to me as very very petty.

MUsoxfan
01-19-2005, 12:02 AM
I think you're reading too much into the quote

santo=dorf
01-19-2005, 12:03 AM
I recall reading that Mike Jackson refused to bean someone after Guillen called for the sign.

MUsoxfan
01-19-2005, 12:04 AM
I recall reading that Mike Jackson refused to bean someone after Guillen called for the sign.

Instead, he probably lobbed one down the middle as that was the only thing in his repetoire last year.....ugghhh

popilius
01-19-2005, 12:15 AM
Jerome,

I was in the audience when Guillen said that, and it surprised me, too. I thought I was the only one.

In fact, I was at the game when the famous play happened, and I remember remarking to my girlfriend that I was shocked Lee didn't go in to second base hard. This is because Lee almost always went into second base hard. That's one of the things I really liked about Lee; the way he broke up double plays.

Therefore, although Guillen's comment is not completely justified, I can see where he's coming from. He probably shouldn't have said it, but I highly doubt Lee was traded because of that incident. That would be ludicrous.

I wasn't bothered (unlike many Sox fans) when the Sox didn't hit someone with a pitch. BUT, I am always bothered when the players on my team don't slide hard into bases.

:gulp:

SoxxoS
01-19-2005, 12:57 AM
Maybe not:

FightingBillini
01-19-2005, 02:07 AM
I don't think Ozzie was being hypocritcal. I said that he wanted to see more intensity from the players. That was the defining moment of the season. A playoff team would have responded and rallied around that moment. The Sox gave up. The team needed to show more intensity. It was there in April and May, but not the rest of the season. It was reported that he gave Mike Jackson the signal to hit Torrii, but he refused Ozzie wanted everyone to play hard like that, not necessarily to play dirty, but to play with intensity. Carlos should have gone into second hard. Whether or not he should have has spikes up, thats another question. Ozzie has to be careful what he says to the press. He can't go out and call for Hunter's head. It wouldn't have done any good to bitch about the play being dirty. All he could to is praise Hunter's intesity in public, and tell his players to get the Twins back in private.

Cubbiesuck13
01-19-2005, 05:45 AM
How soon we forget. After the knockdown, The Oz praised the intensity. Something that Lee didn't have when (not) breaking up the douple play. He came out and challenged his team multiple times to play with the intensity of Tori Hunter. Lee didn't. The Oz made that clear once again at SoxFest. I don't see the problem.

Palehose13
01-19-2005, 08:27 AM
I don't know how anyone could assume that it is Lee.

Mike Jackson was the pitcher on the mound that didn't drill Hunter. My first thought was that he was referring to Jackson.

Jerome...in my opinion, you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Rocky Soprano
01-19-2005, 08:44 AM
Ozzie said that what he didnt like is how most of his players just stood around and complained after the game. They all said how they were going to get him back. Ozzie said you dont talk about it after the fact, you get them back during the game. Just do it, dont talk about it. He said how much they complained but when they had chances to go in hard (Lee) they didnt. On Sunday he said that a certain player (Lee) went in to second base likes his mom was playing second. I thought it was hilarious.

Its true. Dont complain about the play, they should of just gotten back and thats it.

infohawk
01-19-2005, 09:00 AM
Ozzie's comments about the Torii Hunter incident were about letting the team know that talk is cheap. His point was that if the players didn't like what Hunter did, either do something about it or shut up. Just don't whine and complain. Unfortunately, the team chose to complain and not retaliate. Ozzie shouldn't have to put anyone up to retaliation. The players should have the pride and instincts to just do it.

The real question is whether the failure to retaliate told Ozzie everything he needed to know about why the Sox were "always the bridesmaid and never the bride." That one play was a symbol of the past four years. The team just rolled over.

Palehose13
01-19-2005, 09:13 AM
The real question is whether the failure to retaliate told Ozzie everything he needed to know about why the Sox were "always the bridesmaid and never the bride." That one play was a symbol of the past four years. The team just rolled over.

:thumbsup: Absolutely beautiful.

D. TODD
01-19-2005, 09:24 AM
I don't see any hypocrisy in his statement. Hunter made a hard nosed aggressive play in his opinion. If the Sox believed it was out of line the their are numerous ways to make it clear to the Twins that it would not be tolerated or accepted within the game. That opportunity arose quickly afterwards with C.Lee at second and he meekly avoided sending that message. In the SOX/cubs series a few years back Eric Young came in cleats flying at second base knocking the ball out of Royce Clayton's glove and taking a chunk of his forearm with it. Two innings later Chris Singleton although thrown out clearly attempted to grab a piece of the Cubs third baseman with a spike first slide. That is how you show you Will back up your teamates, by letting the opponent know you do not get free shots at our players. Ozzie seem to be very consistent in his comments about the play. Don't piss & moan about it handle it on the Field!

RustyKuntz
01-19-2005, 09:27 AM
If Ozzie believes Hunter was playing the game the right way when he aggressively slid into home, then it makes perfect sense that he was angry at Lee for not doing the same at second. He just wanted to see the same fire out of his players that he saw from the Twins. And I, for one, can't blame him.

Sorry, but I don't see any hypocracy here.

rdivaldi
01-19-2005, 09:33 AM
I really don't see the "hypocrisy" in the statement either. If Ozzie had told his players "not" to retaliate, then it would have been hypocritical to praise Hunter's play.

PaulDrake
01-19-2005, 10:16 AM
I don't if Ozzie was talking about Lee not sliding in hard at second or Jackson not administering a bit of "chin music". I do agree that there seems to be concerted efforts to bash Carlos Lee after the fact. It would not surprise me one bit if Lee does real well in Brew Town, and no I'm not trying to continue any arguments about the trade. At first it was unacceptable, but if it made signing El Duque and AJ possible then I'm done complaining.

SoxFanTillDeath
01-19-2005, 10:49 AM
This whole thing was already hashed out in detail on these same boards right after the incident, but I do slightly agree with you Jerome. Not the hypocritical part, but the whole situation is stupid. I heard the news conference after that game, and Ozzie was absolutely gushing about the Twins. I was disgusted. If had said that he admired the play and wished his guys played with the intensity all season, then I'd be ok with it I guess, but he spent the whole time praising Hunter and Twins. Look down at the logo on your jersey OZ.

No one will really know whether he was talking about Lee or Jackson, but I disagree with the premise that one play in one game of a 162 game season should determine whether you are "here or not", which is in essence what Ozzie was implying. If you dislike the guys performance, or simply wished to improve your ballclub, then do it, but do not stab the player in the back as you kick them out the door and say something like that.

If the player was Lee, then I can say that I have seen him go into 2nd hard countless times, and while he has given the league the perception that he doesn't work hard, from what I've seen he's a pretty hard worker. Or course there's room for improvement, but who can't improve?

If it was Jackson than we all need to just give the guy a break. Besides the fact that he's just received his first social security check from the government, he's got some well-documented arm issues. He probably aimed at the batter, but wound up throwing it right down the pipe.

Jerome
01-19-2005, 12:33 PM
Yes, I see that it wasn't really that hypocritical. Its just that when I heard Ozzie say 'the one guy who had a chance to do something isn't here' i couldn't help but think why didn't Ozzie do something more than just go out of his way to praise Hunter.

If Ozzie wasnted him to do something, why didn't he call him out WHILE HE WAS STILL ON THE TEAM DURING THE SEASON, not months later after he's been traded?

I think the biggest reason Ozzie said that at Soxfest was to paint Carlos as a bad guy to help justify the trade.

Ol' No. 2
01-19-2005, 12:38 PM
Yes, I see that it wasn't really that hypocritical. Its just that when I heard Ozzie say 'the one guy who had a chance to do something isn't here' i couldn't help but think why didn't Ozzie do something more than just go out of his way to praise Hunter.

If Ozzie wasnted him to do something, why didn't he call him out WHILE HE WAS STILL ON THE TEAM DURING THE SEASON, not months later after he's been traded?

I think the biggest reason Ozzie said that at Soxfest was to paint Carlos as a bad guy to help justify the trade.I don't think Ozzie's comment was intended to slam Carlos. I think sometimes Ozzie's mouth gets ahead of his brain, and that was the case here. He was talking about taking care of it on the field and not yapping about it to the media, and this was an example of how they didn't take care of it on the field when they had the chance. And how do you know he didn't say something to Carlos about it privately?

Foulke You
01-19-2005, 03:08 PM
Jerome,

I was in the audience when Guillen said that, and it surprised me, too. I thought I was the only one.

In fact, I was at the game when the famous play happened, and I remember remarking to my girlfriend that I was shocked Lee didn't go in to second base hard. This is because Lee almost always went into second base hard. That's one of the things I really liked about Lee; the way he broke up double plays.

Therefore, although Guillen's comment is not completely justified, I can see where he's coming from. He probably shouldn't have said it, but I highly doubt Lee was traded because of that incident. That would be ludicrous.

I wasn't bothered (unlike many Sox fans) when the Sox didn't hit someone with a pitch. BUT, I am always bothered when the players on my team don't slide hard into bases.

:gulp:

I agree, for the most part, that Lee always went in hard to 2B. I seem to remember a game against Baltimore where Hairston Jr. through a bit of a hissy fit when Lee undercut him breaking up the double play. The game against Minnesota was an isolated incident for Carlos but typical of the "deer in the headlights" syndrome the whole Sox team seems to go through when they play the Twins in the 2nd half of the season.

John Barrett
01-19-2005, 04:20 PM
Its just that when I heard Ozzie say 'the one guy who had a chance to do something isn't here' i couldn't help but think why didn't Ozzie do something more than just go out of his way to praise Hunter.


I think the biggest reason Ozzie said that at Soxfest was to paint Carlos as a bad guy to help justify the trade.


Why didn't you ask him when you were there?

Palehose13
01-19-2005, 04:25 PM
The trade is justified in my mind and the Sox don't have to bash CLee to make it so. As a side note, I do believe that CLee will be spectacular in Milwaukee and I wish him well. However, I think it was one of the most fair trades in MLB that I've seen in a long time. Milwaukee needed a power hitter badly (CLee will bat 4th) and the Sox need to revamp the team, by getting Podsednik, Vizcaino, and money for more acquisitions. I really like the way the 2005 Sox look.

Mohoney
01-19-2005, 05:12 PM
I think sometimes Ozzie's mouth gets ahead of his brain, and that was the case here.

Like the time he referred to Neal Cotts and Jon Adkins as "bright spots"?

Ol' No. 2
01-19-2005, 05:18 PM
Like the time he referred to Neal Cotts and Jon Adkins as "bright spots"?In his first press conference he called out Frank Thomas. I think he's thinking in Spanish, and by the time he realizes what he's saying his mouth has already translated and spit it out.:tongue:

SoxyStu
01-19-2005, 08:06 PM
Ozzie has to be careful what he says to the press. He can't go out and call for Hunter's head.

Thank you for that "Slapshot" moment, McCracken! :smile:

Jerome
01-19-2005, 09:38 PM
Why didn't you ask him when you were there?


:redface: I wish I could have. But I wasn't there. I couldn't make it Friday and Sat. was sold out. I just heard about it on the radio.


And you think I'm crazy, look at THIS

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2734