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WikdChiSoxFan
01-18-2005, 08:29 PM
Don't know if anyone saw this little tidbit in the Daily Herald on Sunday, but apparently Joe Crede built a batting cage at his home in Jefferson City, MO...

Comeback Crede's Crew better be out in full force on opening day!!!

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sox.asp?intID=38368126

all the way at the bottom...other good notes as well

MUsoxfan
01-18-2005, 08:33 PM
I would hope he could hit a pitching machine....but you never know:cool:

zach074
01-18-2005, 08:34 PM
I sure hope it helps him out, i like this guy alot. Go Joe!!:bandance:

veeter
01-18-2005, 08:38 PM
I think Joe needs to know the difference between proactive and reactive. I mean last year wasn't the first time he's struggled. Hope it works.

NSSoxFan
01-18-2005, 08:39 PM
I hope Joe comes up big for us this year.

SABRSox
01-19-2005, 02:00 AM
I think the most important part of that section of the article is Ozzie saying "He doesn't have a Plan B at 3rd." I sure hope he or Kenny find one, for the very likely chance that Joe doesn't make "the leap" this year, or ever for that matter.

Palehose13
01-19-2005, 08:29 AM
I'm behind Joe 100%. I hope he's working hard, cause it will surely pay off.

JRIG
01-19-2005, 08:43 AM
I think the most important part of that section of the article is Ozzie saying "He doesn't have a Plan B at 3rd." I sure hope he or Kenny find one, for the very likely chance that Joe doesn't make "the leap" this year, or ever for that matter.

Well there's always a "Plan B." Problem is the backup plan right now is probably an infield of Uribe, Valdez, and Harris. And even last year's Crede is preferable to having Valdez in the lineup everyday.

calderon
01-19-2005, 10:02 AM
I think our expectations of Crede may be too much

wdelaney72
01-19-2005, 10:19 AM
I think our expectations of Crede may be too much

I think his hot streak at the end of '03' raised the bar. We've seen flashes of quality hitting. We're all just waiting for a consistent year.

You are correct, though, expectations are higher than they need to be. With the upgrade of AJ behind the Plate. We can afford a less than stellar bat from Joe, just as long as he continues to play solid defense at third. I'd be thrilled if he hit .260.

Palehose13
01-19-2005, 10:54 AM
I think his hot streak at the end of '03' raised the bar. We've seen flashes of quality hitting. We're all just waiting for a consistent year.

You are correct, though, expectations are higher than they need to be. With the upgrade of AJ behind the Plate. We can afford a less than stellar bat from Joe, just as long as he continues to play solid defense at third. I'd be thrilled if he hit .260.

I agree. If Joe can give us .260-.270 and 20+ HR's /year with his defense...I'd be ok with that.

mcfish
01-19-2005, 10:54 AM
I think his hot streak at the end of '03' raised the bar. We've seen flashes of quality hitting. We're all just waiting for a consistent year.

You are correct, though, expectations are higher than they need to be. With the upgrade of AJ behind the Plate. We can afford a less than stellar bat from Joe, just as long as he continues to play solid defense at third. I'd be thrilled if he hit .260.How is .260 acceptable from Crede when everyone (not necessarily you, I don't know your position) wants to run our .262 hitting 2nd baseman out of town and bring in anyone willing to do the job, whether or not they can do it better? (Alex Cora would not have been an upgrade) I can't believe I have to defend Willie so much. I don't even like Willie, especially with how infuriating he is on the basepaths. He's no worse than Crede, yet while Crede is given a free pass to do whatever he can do this season, people don't want to give Willie even the slightest chance.

Randar68
01-19-2005, 11:02 AM
all the way at the bottom...other good notes as well

He's got a video set-up also and he's been sending the videos to Walker and they have been talking weekly. Crede had some swing-flaws, breaking down of his back side, etc, but he's had those his whole life. It's always worked for him. For players who haven't been accustomed to changing their style in the past, it often takes failure of extreme proportion for them to cave in and seek help. You can't help someone who doesn't want it, and now that he wants it, Walker has been helping him rebuild his swing. What Walker did with Konerko was what really convinced Joe to trust him and ask for help with about a month or so left in the 2004 season.

Can't wait to see his new swing at Spring Training. The kid has the talent to hit .290-.300 with 30 HR's in this league, no question in my mind. Shortening up that swing and regaining confidence is what will determine if he can reach that potential...

Palehose13
01-19-2005, 11:35 AM
How is .260 acceptable from Crede when everyone (not necessarily you, I don't know your position) wants to run our .262 hitting 2nd baseman out of town and bring in anyone willing to do the job, whether or not they can do it better? (Alex Cora would not have been an upgrade) I can't believe I have to defend Willie so much. I don't even like Willie, especially with how infuriating he is on the basepaths. He's no worse than Crede, yet while Crede is given a free pass to do whatever he can do this season, people don't want to give Willie even the slightest chance.

I'm more than willing to give Willie a chance. Regarding Crede, I've been down on him since last year. However, SoxFest changed my mind. He's a really likable guy and seems to be sincere that he's upset that he has let us (the fans) down. OTOH, Willie doesn't get my vote for "Mr. Personality", so I'm not pulling for him as hard. Don't get me wrong, I do want him to succeed and be given a chance to do so. I just didn't like the attitude that he displayed last weekend.

fogie
01-19-2005, 11:59 AM
How is .260 acceptable from Crede when everyone (not necessarily you, I don't know your position) wants to run our .262 hitting 2nd baseman out of town and bring in anyone willing to do the job, whether or not they can do it better? (Alex Cora would not have been an upgrade) I can't believe I have to defend Willie so much. I don't even like Willie, especially with how infuriating he is on the basepaths. He's no worse than Crede, yet while Crede is given a free pass to do whatever he can do this season, people don't want to give Willie even the slightest chance.

Joe and Willie are different type players, I saw them both play when they were with Charlotte of the International league, both gave 100% and were on top of their game, you could see Willie working hard to impress, but Joe was a lay ed back type player but got the job done, Joe is best of the two and is yet today. Joe will comeback and be everything he is suppost to be, Willie maybe in over his head, and is going to have to work hard to stay. :walk

Bobby Thigpen
01-19-2005, 12:14 PM
How is .260 acceptable from Crede when everyone (not necessarily you, I don't know your position) wants to run our .262 hitting 2nd baseman out of town and bring in anyone willing to do the job, whether or not they can do it better?

Because .260 is acceptable from a guy who can hit 20-30 HRs, drive in 80-100 RBIs and have a golden glove caliber glove and arm.

.260 is not acceptable from a guy with an average to below average glove, can't hit for power to save his life (though I don't think I'd want him trying), and is speed guy who won't take a walk, has a bad OBP for a leadoff guy, and can't steal a base even when he does get on.

Does that explain the differences well enough?

SoxxoS
01-19-2005, 12:18 PM
He's got a video set-up also and he's been sending the videos to Walker and they have been talking weekly. Crede had some swing-flaws, breaking down of his back side, etc, but he's had those his whole life. It's always worked for him. For players who haven't been accustomed to changing their style in the past, it often takes failure of extreme proportion for them to cave in and seek help. You can't help someone who doesn't want it, and now that he wants it, Walker has been helping him rebuild his swing. What Walker did with Konerko was what really convinced Joe to trust him and ask for help with about a month or so left in the 2004 season.

Can't wait to see his new swing at Spring Training. The kid has the talent to hit .290-.300 with 30 HR's in this league, no question in my mind. Shortening up that swing and regaining confidence is what will determine if he can reach that potential...

And what do you think the chances of this happening are?

wdelaney72
01-19-2005, 12:18 PM
Because .260 is acceptable from a guy who can hit 20-30 HRs, drive in 80-100 RBIs and have a golden glove caliber glove and arm.

.260 is not acceptable from a guy with an average to below average glove, can't hit for power to save his life (though I don't think I'd want him trying), and is speed guy who won't take a walk, has a bad OBP for a leadoff guy, and can't steal a base even when he does get on.

Does that explain the differences well enough?

You posted my response. Well said.

mcfish
01-19-2005, 12:40 PM
Because .260 is acceptable from a guy who can hit 20-30 HRs, drive in 80-100 RBIs and have a golden glove caliber glove and arm.

.260 is not acceptable from a guy with an average to below average glove, can't hit for power to save his life (though I don't think I'd want him trying), and is speed guy who won't take a walk, has a bad OBP for a leadoff guy, and can't steal a base even when he does get on.

Does that explain the differences well enough?Personally, I don't think .260 is acceptable from either of them. I just wish that we could have a backup plan for both, and not go into the season depending on Crede not sucking again.

To counter your points though, Willie did hit over .300 for a while last season, until he got hurt, which Crede never came close to. I don't want power from Willie. I think you underestimate his ability to take a walk - he was 4th on the team with 51. Paulie had 69 in 150 more AB's by comparison. And I personally think everyone here overestimates Crede's defensive abilities and you underestimate Harris' - although I can't say that about the rest of the board as most think he is a very good defender. I say he is average at least.

My point is, Crede hit .239 last year and everyone is jumping on the Crede at 3rd bandwagon no questions asked. His highest average at any point in the season was .248 on June 30th. Why is that not at least as much of a concern as Harris is to everyone? Crede was an automatic out. Jose and Crede both in the lineup in the second half last year went 2-10 between them on a good day. I hope he improves, and the story is uplifting, but why is there not an uproar here, whereas there is a giant uproar over keeping Harris, who played much better than Crede last year in the months of the season when he was not hurt (those being June and July).

mcfish
01-19-2005, 12:47 PM
Joe and Willie are different type players, I saw them both play when they were with Charlotte of the International league, both gave 100% and were on top of their game, you could see Willie working hard to impress, but Joe was a lay ed back type player but got the job done, Joe is best of the two and is yet today. Joe will comeback and be everything he is suppost to be, Willie maybe in over his head, and is going to have to work hard to stay. :walk
My concern with Joe is that you have to "be there" before you can "comeback." He had a good couple months in 2003, and besides that has not produced to the level of expectations at all.

I agree both need to work hard. What concerns me is Ozzie saying we have no plan B for Crede and everyone here being fine with that while at the same time everyone here is saying that the most important thing this team needs is a 2B.

But mostly I replied because I have to ask why you included the picture of Bob Howry in your post?

Flight #24
01-19-2005, 12:49 PM
Personally, I don't think .260 is acceptable from either of them. I just wish that we could have a backup plan for both, and not go into the season depending on Crede not sucking again.

To counter your points though, Willie did hit over .300 for a while last season, until he got hurt, which Crede never came close to. I don't want power from Willie. I think you underestimate his ability to take a walk - he was 4th on the team with 51. Paulie had 69 in 150 more AB's by comparison. And I personally think everyone here overestimates Crede's defensive abilities.

My point is, Crede hit .239 last year and everyone is jumping on the Crede at 3rd bandwagon no questions asked. His highest average at any point in the season was .248 on June 30th. Why is that not at least as much of a concern as Harris is to everyone? Crede was an automatic out. Jose and Crede both in the lineup in the second half last year went 2-10 between them on a good day. I hope he improves, and the story is uplifting, but why is there not an uproar here, whereas there is a giant uproar over keeping Harris, who played much better than Crede last year in the months of the season when he was not hurt (those being June and July).

IMO, it's at least partially becuase there appears to be a viable alternative to Willie available (Iguchi), whereas there does not appear to be a viable alternative to Crede. Well, that and the fact that there's no catchy slogan for Willie like "Crede's Crew" (Harris' Homies, where are you?)

SoxFan48
01-19-2005, 12:50 PM
The good news on Crede--he is an age 26 where statistically many players jump forward in their careers, the most recent being Aaron Rowand at the age of 26 in 2004.

Prediction: Another 26 year old, Alex Escobar, replaces the new hero Scott Podsednik as starting CF by All-Star game (and it will be a positive move).

MrRoboto83
01-19-2005, 12:51 PM
It would be nice to pick up a utility infielder that could challege Harris, Uribe and Crede to keep up, I'm not sure who that person could be though. I expect bigger years from all three of them, anything less will be the Sox finishing in 2nd again

Bobby Thigpen
01-19-2005, 01:44 PM
I like Willie Harris, and have been highly critical of Crede, but the reasons I think Willie is more of a liability are many.

1. Sure Crede sucked last year, but he has at least in the past not sucked. Willie can have all the potential and skills in the world and he has yet to do this.

2. Crede can hit for power with the potential for 30 plus HRs with the POTENTIAL for a decently high average- 260 to 280 with RBIs- Willie will at best is a singles hitter who hasn't shown a great ability to do that, unless it's bunting.

3. I disagree wholeheartedly with the defensive issue. Crede is a great defensive 3rd baseman and Willie is like you said average, only I think it's average at best. Willie is good defensively like Ray was. He can get all over the field, but he really can't do a whole lot once he gets there.

4. Crede is not the type of guy you need a high OBP from. He's there for power, and defense. Willie absolutely has to have a high OBP to be a success. His one redeeming skill is his blazing speed. If he's never on the basepaths to take advantage of it, it does him no good.

5. While we're on Willie's speed he may be the fastest guy in the majors (I would really like to see him in a footrace with some guys like Pierre, or Ichiro, or Roberts), but he has no idea how to use it. He is a terrible base stealer and so again his speed is an absolute waste. It could still come in handy for scoring from 1st on a double, but he's never on base to do it (see point 4). He may be the fastest station to station base runner in the history of baseball.

maurice
01-19-2005, 02:07 PM
It seems a lot of people assume Crede will improve and that Harris will not. While the jury's still out on both, IMHO Harris is far more likely to improve than Crede. They're both the same age, but Crede has significanlty more MLB experience. The trend from 2003 to 2004 was declining stats for Crede (-22 AVE, -9 OBP, -15 SLG) but improving stats for Harris (+58 AVE, +84 OBP, +82 SLG). In fact, Crede has declined when you compare the last three years in a row . . . at a time when his home park was made friendlier to power hitters. Harris' major liability is his lack of confidence stealing bases and inability to hit LHP. IMHO, both are likely to improve with experience. In addition, the SB issue is very likely to improve through Ozzie's urging and the influence of Pods and Raines. Harris' D at 2B is likely to improve when they play him there regularly and don't randomly shift him to CF. He already takes a good amount of walks. An increase in SB attempts + a minor increase in AVE + a minor increase in D = a pretty damn good 2B. None of these things are out of the question for a player enterning his second full season.

mcfish
01-19-2005, 02:09 PM
I like Willie Harris, and have been highly critical of Crede, but the reasons I think Willie is more of a liability are many.

1. Sure Crede sucked last year, but he has at least in the past not sucked. Willie can have all the potential and skills in the world and he has yet to do this.

2. Crede can hit for power with the potential for 30 plus HRs with the POTENTIAL for a decently high average- 260 to 280 with RBIs- Willie will at best is a singles hitter who hasn't shown a great ability to do that, unless it's bunting.

3. I disagree wholeheartedly with the defensive issue. Crede is a great defensive 3rd baseman and Willie is like you said average, only I think it's average at best. Willie is good defensively like Ray was. He can get all over the field, but he really can't do a whole lot once he gets there.

4. Crede is not the type of guy you need a high OBP from. He's there for power, and defense. Willie absolutely has to have a high OBP to be a success. His one redeeming skill is his blazing speed. If he's never on the basepaths to take advantage of it, it does him no good.

5. While we're on Willie's speed he may be the fastest guy in the majors (I would really like to see him in a footrace with some guys like Pierre, or Ichiro, or Roberts), but he has no idea how to use it. He is a terrible base stealer and so again his speed is an absolute waste. It could still come in handy for scoring from 1st on a double, but he's never on base to do it (see point 4). He may be the fastest station to station base runner in the history of baseball.For the most part, I have to say I agree with you.
1. I don't know if I would say that Crede has done it before. 2 months maybe. Harris put together a .384 May last year before the collision, does that count for anything?
2. I agree, but Willie was hurt last year. Before that he was hitting lots of singles.
3. Agree to disagree. I just think that Crede's defense is overvalued around here.
4. Agree in principle, but Crede has to do better than he has, that's not even asking for a high OBP, just an average one.
5. Completely agree - biggest complaint with Willie. Needs to learn to be a better baserunner, if that is even possible.

I'm not saying that Harris is perfect by any means, I just don't understand why the large disparity in the way people look at these two players. When does Crede's failure start to outweigh his potential? It took less than 95 games and 286 AB's for that to happen to Borchard - when is Crede's turn over? Is it just because there is no viable alternative? If he's hitting .240 in August again, do I seriously have to keep watching him fail AB after AB because he has 18 home runs and a lot of potential?

MUsoxfan
01-19-2005, 02:12 PM
I like Willie Harris, and have been highly critical of Crede, but the reasons I think Willie is more of a liability are many.

1. Sure Crede sucked last year, but he has at least in the past not sucked. Willie can have all the potential and skills in the world and he has yet to do this.

2. Crede can hit for power with the potential for 30 plus HRs with the POTENTIAL for a decently high average- 260 to 280 with RBIs- Willie will at best is a singles hitter who hasn't shown a great ability to do that, unless it's bunting.



1. When did Crede not suck? In the minors and a couple months afterwards? Willie has yet to not suck? He's shown flashes of brilliance...for longer periods of time than Crede ever has.

2. Yes, Crede can hit for power. He's capable of 30HR. Know who else was....Jose Valenin. .228 or so with 29-30hr's. This team doesn need that. I want the guy that can hit the seeing-eye single twice in a game rather than a blast and 7 k's in 3 games. Also, are you suggesting that bunting isn't valuable? More now than ever, this team needs bunting and if Willie can master that I'm on his side all year.

Palehose13
01-19-2005, 02:19 PM
The good news on Crede--he is an age 26 where statistically many players jump forward in their careers, the most recent being Aaron Rowand at the age of 26 in 2004.

Prediction: Another 26 year old, Alex Escobar, replaces the new hero Scott Podsednik as starting CF by All-Star game (and it will be a positive move).

No way! Scott will be just fine and will prove to be a hero. :smile:

mweflen
01-19-2005, 02:37 PM
Outside all the statistical arguments, which are all very interesting, the simple fact is this: Harris is a Punk with a capital P, while Crede seems quiet, reserved, and intense. I've met both at VIP pre-soxfest events, and Crede was by far the more personable. Harris came off as an arrogant putz.

They could post the exact same stats for the year. I'd still root for Crede and still roll my eyes every time Harris is announced.

Ol' No. 2
01-19-2005, 02:41 PM
Outside all the statistical arguments, which are all very interesting, the simple fact is this: Harris is a Punk with a capital P, while Crede seems quiet, reserved, and intense. I've met both at VIP pre-soxfest events, and Crede was by far the more personable. Harris came off as an arrogant putz.

They could post the exact same stats for the year. I'd still root for Crede and still roll my eyes every time Harris is announced.I'm not interested in a date. There were lots of arrogant putz's who were great ballplayers.

mweflen
01-19-2005, 02:49 PM
I'm not interested in a date. There were lots of arrogant putz's who were great ballplayers.

I'm trying to address the issue of why two ballplayers with similar levels of underachievement (in different categories) receive different levels of support from fans.

If Harris were a great ballplayer, no one would be having this discussion.

SABRSox
01-19-2005, 03:01 PM
I'm not interested in a date. There were lots of arrogant putz's who were great ballplayers.

Amen. I don't see how so many people can back Crede so faithfully. He has done nothing that warrants keeping him on the roster, except not have anybody else to replace him with. Every season his strikeouts increase, his BA, OBP, and SLG drop, and as for his fielding, he's at the bottom of MLB in range at the 3rd base position. The words "Gold Glove Caliber" and "Joe Crede" should never be in the same sentence, unless that sentence is "Joe Crede will never be a gold glove caliber player."

And as for Willie... well, he's equally disappointing, but at least he had more win shares last season than Crede.

IMHO, Crede will hit maybe .260, with a .300 OBP, hit somewhere between 20-25 HRs, and get lucky if he reaches 70 RBI. Which, unfortunately, will be just enough mediocrity to not get him replaced.

MUsoxfan
01-19-2005, 03:07 PM
I'm trying to address the issue of why two ballplayers with similar levels of underachievement (in different categories) receive different levels of support from fans.

If Harris were a great ballplayer, no one would be having this discussion.

I don't care about either of their attitudes because I have not met either one of them personally and most Sox fans have never met either one of them peronally. Neither of them speak up in the media either so that blows your theory on their level of support. I just care about how they play in the field. While both are sub-par, Crede needs MUCH more improvement than Willie Harris.

Ol' No. 2
01-19-2005, 03:07 PM
Amen. I don't see how so many people can back Crede so faithfully. He has done nothing that warrants keeping him on the roster, except not have anybody else to replace him with. Every season his strikeouts increase, his BA, OBP, and SLG drop, and as for his fielding, he's at the bottom of MLB in range at the 3rd base position. The words "Gold Glove Caliber" and "Joe Crede" should never be in the same sentence, unless that sentence is "Joe Crede will never be a gold glove caliber player."

And as for Willie... well, he's equally disappointing, but at least he had more win shares last season than Crede.

IMHO, Crede will hit maybe .260, with a .300 OBP, hit somewhere between 20-25 HRs, and get lucky if he reaches 70 RBI. Which, unfortunately, will be just enough mediocrity to not get him replaced.Maybe I just have more patience with young players than most of the people here, but I'd give both Crede and Harris another year. But I would also have a backup plan, just in case. I thought Alex Cora fit the bill nicely. Right now, Kenny doesn't seem to have one.

maurice
01-19-2005, 03:13 PM
I understand rooting for the nice guy, but there's got to be something else going on here. Borchard seems to be "quiet, reserved, and intense," but I don't see much LTP Love. Rowand is a heckuva nice guy, but he took a beating for hitting .280 before last season.

Besides, before the weekend, only a handful of posters were aware of Willie's apparent personality deficiencies . . . but very many still bashed him while ignoring Crede's obvious problems. IMHO, I don't care about a player's personality, as long as they're not committing crimes.

idseer
01-19-2005, 03:24 PM
3. I disagree wholeheartedly with the defensive issue. Crede is a great defensive 3rd baseman and Willie is like you said average, only I think it's average at best. Willie is good defensively like Ray was. He can get all over the field, but he really can't do a whole lot once he gets there.



i can't imagine why you think crede is gold glove caliber. fact is, he is average at BEST. i don't watch many games but i've already see him do some pretty stupid things at 3rd. his stats are normal, he doesn't have an overpowering arm.

just what gives you the notion he's a 'great' fielder?

idseer
01-19-2005, 03:32 PM
of the 9 qualifying 3rd basemen in the al last year he was :

5th in fldg %
5th in total chances
7th in put outs
6th (tied) in assists
5th (tied) in errors
7th in range factor
7th in zone rating

where does the gold glove come in?

mweflen
01-19-2005, 03:37 PM
I can't speak for other fans. I have met Crede, Rowand and Harris, while many others may not have.

I root for Rowand and Crede, but not for Harris. I'd root the same way if they were all hitting .300. Two are cool guys, one's a jerk.

I do think this can come across to the fan in general, watching TV or at the game. They show shots of guys, and their demeanor can be very instructive. I would submit that Willie comes off as a cocky, arrogant jerk, while the other two do not.

Again, I don't know if this enters into other fans' thinking. But it does in mine when I choose which underachievers to root for. Is it arbitrary? Perhaps. For instance, I don't root for Joe Borchard, because he looks like he's on crack at any given moment. Superficial, definitely. But I don't care. He looks like a frickin stoner, and it annoys me.

And, as I have said before in this very thread, if Harris were hitting .300+ and reaching base at a .380+ clip, while stealing 40+, he could club baby seals for all I care. But he doesn't, so to me, he's an underachieving jerk. I can root for an underachieving nice guy, not for an underachieving jerk.

It was my understanding that the question before us is why one player gets support while the other does not. This is by its nature a subjective question.

mweflen
01-19-2005, 03:38 PM
of the 9 qualifying 3rd basemen in the al last year he was :

5th in fldg %
5th in total chances
7th in put outs
6th (tied) in assists
5th (tied) in errors
7th in range factor
7th in zone rating

where does the gold glove come in?

That sounds like above average given the rest of the 'unqualifying' 3rd basemen out there.

Where does Harris rate?

chisox2005
01-19-2005, 05:22 PM
I hope the machine throws breaking balls

stillz
01-19-2005, 05:43 PM
Maybe I just have more patience with young players than most of the people here, but I'd give both Crede and Harris another year.

Agreed. Most players need significant ABs and maturity to adjust to the majors. I can't understand trashing Willie when he had a .343 OBP and 19 SB in his first season with 400 at-bats. Not amazing numbers, but you gotta start somewhere. It's been said before, but Raines and Podsednick could be huge difference-makers for him.

Crede showed the ability to bear down and get the big hit last season.. we know he can concentrate. Hopefully, Walker helps him turn a corner this year with his swing and overall confidence.

California Sox
01-19-2005, 09:09 PM
I agree with both sides. Neither of these guys have been any good. And Crede's one of the guy's I root for the hardest, but he's been brutal. I believe 2005 will be the last chance for Crede and Harris. Ozzie may not have a Plan B for Crede, but KW drafted Josh Fields for some reason. Hopefully Randar is right and Joe has fixed his swing, otherwise if Fields hits in AA (and his strikeout totals are still alarming) Crede could be on the way out of town. As for Harris, I think his .343 OBP is somewhat deceiving in that he had a huge month of May and Uribe protected him from seeing a lot of tough lefthanders. I get the feeling the Sox wish they had another 2b option. He'll either step up his game or they'll find an option. (Robbie Alomar?)

pczarapa
01-19-2005, 10:07 PM
I hope they can find someone as a plan b because .240 and 20 HR doesn't do it as a 3B any more even if you are outstanding on defense. His average was dead last for 3b last season in all of MLB for 3b with more than 400 at bats and his slugging percentage was in the bottom quarter as well. I love the Sox, but I don't love Crede.

pczarapa
01-19-2005, 10:07 PM
I hope the machine throws breaking balls

:D: How 'bout it!

pczarapa
01-19-2005, 10:12 PM
I can't speak for other fans. I have met Crede, Rowand and Harris, while many others may not have.

I root for Rowand and Crede, but not for Harris. I'd root the same way if they were all hitting .300. Two are cool guys, one's a jerk.

I do think this can come across to the fan in general, watching TV or at the game. They show shots of guys, and their demeanor can be very instructive. I would submit that Willie comes off as a cocky, arrogant jerk, while the other two do not.

Again, I don't know if this enters into other fans' thinking. But it does in mine when I choose which underachievers to root for. Is it arbitrary? Perhaps. For instance, I don't root for Joe Borchard, because he looks like he's on crack at any given moment. Superficial, definitely. But I don't care. He looks like a frickin stoner, and it annoys me.

And, as I have said before in this very thread, if Harris were hitting .300+ and reaching base at a .380+ clip, while stealing 40+, he could club baby seals for all I care. But he doesn't, so to me, he's an underachieving jerk. I can root for an underachieving nice guy, not for an underachieving jerk.

It was my understanding that the question before us is why one player gets support while the other does not. This is by its nature a subjective question.


I agree that Harris's m.o. is not the best but I met Harris at O'Hare last October while waiting for a flight to Houston and he was actually pretty cordial. Granted we didn't talk long, but he did seem appreciative that I was a Sox fan. I've never met Rowand or Crede, but Harris seemed like a decent guy for the couple minutes I talked to him.

Erik The Red
01-19-2005, 10:16 PM
Whoa, Crede lives in Jeff City? I was down there the week before thanksgiving, one of my best friends from high school moved there after college. It was a nice town, but I could never live there.

Mohoney
01-19-2005, 10:20 PM
My point is, Crede hit .239 last year and everyone is jumping on the Crede at 3rd bandwagon no questions asked. His highest average at any point in the season was .248 on June 30th. Why is that not at least as much of a concern as Harris is to everyone? Crede was an automatic out.

You're absolutely right. Plus, the guy isn't exactly the Mr. Clutch that he's made out to be, either. He hit .237 with RISP. So, in my opinion, those 69 RBI that people use to defend him isn't good enough. A .237/.312 line with RISP sucks, and he's the LAST guy I would count on to keep a rally going.

In other words, the ONLY thing that Crede has over Harris offensively is the threat of the solo home run, and I thought that we were getting away from this philosophy as a team.

If Crede hits under .250 again this year, he better be replaced in '06.

idseer
01-19-2005, 10:32 PM
That sounds like above average given the rest of the 'unqualifying' 3rd basemen out there.

Where does Harris rate?

not sure why you see it as above average. unqualified just means they didn't have enough innings there.
as an example tho using just fielding %, range factor and zone rating ... joe was 25th in fldg %, 38th in zr, and 46th in rf. there were 74 3rd basemen altogether.

i'd say he was average .... at best.


harris didn't qualify with enough innings.
overall tho, he was 24th in fdlg %, 27th in zr, and 21st in rf. out of 54 2nd basemen.

again ... about average. maybe even a little better than crede at his position.

of course, these stats aren't the end all by any means, but they do have value. at least enough to show that neither of these guys are great fielders.

i'd LOVE to put the "crede has gg potential' tripe to bed tho.
it just ain't so.

tstrike2000
01-19-2005, 11:33 PM
http://stud.no-ip.com/crede.jpgCrede and I at SoxFest last Saturday. A nice guy, I really hope with his talent and offseason work, he can rebound with the bat and help the Sox to a division title.

cburns
01-20-2005, 12:22 AM
If Harris were a great ballplayer, no one would be having this discussion.

obviously

johnny_mostil
01-20-2005, 07:35 AM
You're absolutely right. Plus, the guy isn't exactly the Mr. Clutch that he's made out to be, either. He hit .237 with RISP. So, in my opinion, those 69 RBI that people use to defend him isn't good enough.

That is not significantly different than his overall numbers. You can't expect real players to hit better with RISP consistently because nobody has ever done it.

johnny_mostil
01-20-2005, 07:37 AM
In other words, the ONLY thing that Crede has over Harris offensively is the threat of the solo home run, and I thought that we were getting away from this philosophy as a team.

Hardly. The team still has a long list of 20-homer types.

Infallible
01-21-2005, 05:11 PM
I think our expectations of Crede may be too much

I'm with you on this one. He's a nice guy, he's got long ball power, he's good defensively, but when he steps into the box he looks about as excited as Mr. Rogers. I hope to hell that he does well cause the .230's ain't cutting it for guy that was supposed to do more.