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DVsoxfan
01-17-2005, 10:50 AM
There was a story in the Tribune this morning that talked about Konerko and a possible contract extension. This sounds very promising, it is obvious that Konerko really wants to stay with the Sox by the way he wants to handle this situation. Hopefully he and KW can get a deal done. It sure would be great to have Pauly around for the long term. KW really loves this guy too, at Saturday's Q/A KW praised him for his selfless style of play. I have a feeling PK is gonna be in a Sox uniform for a long time.

LINK (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-0501170129jan17,1,6331392.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed)

idseer
01-17-2005, 11:03 AM
i hope this is true.

paul has always seemed a serious student of the game to me and a real gamer. once or twice he's opened his mouth when maybe he shouldn't have, but who here has never done that? doesn't make him a bad person.
and he may not be the 'complete' player we'd all like to have at every position but he's one of the better 1st basemen in the game and at 28, i believe his best days are still ahead of him.

B M l o t 7
01-17-2005, 11:16 AM
Paul Konerko is the classy guys in MLB. While everyone is hiring Scott Boras to try and get as much money as possible, Paul is willing to take less money. And this right after a 41 homer 117 RBI season. The white Sox have in my opinion one of the greatest guys in the league. I really hope that KW and Paul can work a contract extension soon.

MUsoxfan
01-17-2005, 11:18 AM
This is nonsense! I hope KW is signing him so he can trade him to Arizona for Vazquez or TB for Huff or the Yankees for RJ. We must trade Konerko and Garland now!

.....I'm just predicting future posts in this thread based on what I've seen on this board the past few months. I love Paulie and I'd like him to end his career here.

mdep524
01-17-2005, 11:33 AM
OK, here's something that almost certainly is not going to happen, nor would it necessarily be a popular move 'round these parts. But I'll bring it up for discussion:

Trade Paul Konerko.

I know, I know, the Sox power offense is already decimated enough with the losses of Maggs, CLee, and Frank (for April and May).... and Paulie is a great clubhouse presence...and he's still relatively young. But there are some ominous warning signs about Paulie that could cause trouble in the future.

First, Paulie is already a one dimensional player as it is--if his hip condition gets worse over time, he will become even more limited physically and a big injury risk. Second his split stats are downright scary in '04- .239 BA on the road with 12 HR. .239!! Should we really consider that acceptable from a guy who is making $8 million and looking for a raise and extension?

I am no doomsday teller, nor am I necessarily pessimistic, I just think its a point worth discussing. Aubrey Huff, he of the .297/29/94 line last year (and .311/34/107 in '03, not to mention much cheaper contract), is allegedly available for a strong bullpen arm. What if the Sox could swing a deal for Huff (involving Mare perhaps?), and then look at their options for Paulie. For example, if the Marlins lose out on Delgado maybe they'll consider Paulie a replacement (and wouldn't Luis Castillo and/or AJ Burnett look nice in Sox pinstripes?). If not the Marlins, then Texas? Arizona? The Mets?, etc.

idseer says "i believe his best days are still ahead of him." While I'd like to believe that, there is a good chance he has peaked already- considering his hip condition and his home field. OK, let the controversy begin!

Flight #24
01-17-2005, 11:43 AM
OK, here's something that almost certainly is not going to happen, nor would it necessarily be a popular move 'round these parts. But I'll bring it up for discussion:

Trade Paul Konerko.

I know, I know, the Sox power offense is already decimated enough with the losses of Maggs, CLee, and Frank (for April and May).... and Paulie is a great clubhouse presence...and he's still relatively young. But there are some ominous warning signs about Paulie that could cause trouble in the future.

First, Paulie is already a one dimensional player as it is--if his hip condition gets worse over time, he will become even more limited physically and a big injury risk. Second his split stats are downright scary in '04- .239 BA on the road with 12 HR. .239!! Should we really consider that acceptable from a guy who is making $8 million and looking for a raise and extension?

I am no doomsday teller, nor am I necessarily pessimistic, I just think its a point worth discussing. Aubrey Huff, he of the .297/29/94 line last year (and .311/34/107 in '03, not to mention much cheaper contract), is allegedly available for a strong bullpen arm. What if the Sox could swing a deal for Huff (involving Mare perhaps?), and then look at their options for Paulie. For example, if the Marlins lose out on Delgado maybe they'll consider Paulie a replacement (and wouldn't Luis Castillo and/or AJ Burnett look nice in Sox pinstripes?). If not the Marlins, then Texas? Arizona? The Mets?, etc.

idseer says "i believe his best days are still ahead of him." While I'd like to believe that, there is a good chance he has peaked already- considering his hip condition and his home field. OK, let the controversy begin!

I love Paulie, but IMO Huff's a better player. About the only reasons why I wouldn't do that deal are 1)if Paulie's really a clubhouse leader that they tink they need to hold onto, and 2)if they think remaking pretty much the entire team would have a negative impact on attendance (which I doubt).

But performance-wise, I don't think there's much if anything that Paulie has over Huff if you take out park factors.

B M l o t 7
01-17-2005, 11:57 AM
I know your just trying to play Devil's advocate here but if we were to trade Konerko for Luis Castillo and or AJ Burnett, think of what our lineup would look like?

Posdenik
Castillo
Dye
Everett or Thomas
Rowand or AJ
AJ or Rowand
Uribe
Crede
Harris
The only person there that capable to hit 30 homers is Dye and he could very well get injured. And Thomas, but he wont be back until June. That lineup wouldn't have a true 3 4 or 5 hitter. And if you got AJ Burnett then you would slot at the 4 spot and do what with Garland try trade him? But without Konerko, Garland doesn't look good by himself. Konerko is also a great team leader something that every clubhouse needs, and the sox would lack. Frank Thomas could be a leader but he possibly wouldn't be there until June. The sox would have a bad March and May. Thats for sure

Lip Man 1
01-17-2005, 12:15 PM
I hope Paul can work something out and remain with the team. I think both sides will work towards that goal however nothing is guaranteed. As Paul himself said in the story..."This organization gave me a chance to play, and I have no problem being loyal to them. If that costs me money down the road, fine. The question is how much money, because I feel that I have an obligation to my fellow players to get a good deal and fair deal for what the market is."
We'll see.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
01-17-2005, 12:19 PM
I hope Paul can work something out and remain with the team. I think both sides will work towards that goal however nothing is guaranteed. As Paul himself said in the story..."This organization gave me a chance to play, and I have no problem being loyal to them. If that costs me money down the road, fine. The question is how much money, because I feel that I have an obligation to my fellow players to get a good deal and fair deal for what the market is."
We'll see.

LipThe most telling quote from Pauly was the one regarding the big money Sexson and Delgado are getting.

"Without looking at the numbers, I don't know if I'm in the same class," Konerko said. "If I have a good year, I'm not going to worry about it."

mdep524
01-17-2005, 12:33 PM
I know your just trying to play Devil's advocate here but if we were to trade Konerko for Luis Castillo and or AJ Burnett, think of what our lineup would look like?

Posdenik
Castillo
Dye
Everett or Thomas
Rowand or AJ
AJ or Rowand
Uribe
Crede
Harris
The only person there that capable to hit 30 homers is Dye and he could very well get injured. And Thomas, but he wont be back until June. That lineup wouldn't have a true 3 4 or 5 hitter. And if you got AJ Burnett then you would slot at the 4 spot and do what with Garland try trade him? But without Konerko, Garland doesn't look good by himself. Konerko is also a great team leader something that every clubhouse needs, and the sox would lack. Frank Thomas could be a leader but he possibly wouldn't be there until June. The sox would have a bad March and May. Thats for sure

First, you have two 2B in that line up. If Castillo were acquired, Willie Harris wouldn't be there. And you have no 1B, a hole Aubrey Huff would fill quite nicely.

Second, Garland (or Contreras- personally I prefer keeping Garland) could be traded or kept as a 6th starter. Both the Yankees and Red Sox have 6th starter insurance policies in case of injuries. Though Garland/Contreras are not world beaters, they still have some trade value if you choose to go that route.

MUsoxfan
01-17-2005, 12:52 PM
I predicted the future of the thread and it came true 15 minutes after my prediction. There's no need to trade the guy. Accept the fact that he's the 25th fastest guy on the team. All he does his knock in runs on a team that needs lots of them. If money needs to be spent on a position player I don't mind it being spent on Konerko. People are gonna say he's expensive. But Huff will be expensive too with his next contract.

B M l o t 7
01-17-2005, 12:58 PM
sorry my bad I wasn't thinkin! :o: Just trying to state the point that without Konerko our offense looks sad :(:
also while your right you can trade Garland or Contreas, you wouldn't be able to get much besides maybe a utility fielder and a prospect. I would rather just keep konerko pay him 9 million a year for 4 years, then have to try another power hitter. Besides he a good guy too.

Whitesox029
01-17-2005, 01:24 PM
There was a story in the Tribune this morning that talked about Konerko and a possible contract extension. This sounds very promising, it is obvious that Konerko really wants to stay with the Sox by the way he wants to handle this situation. Hopefully he and KW can get a deal done. It sure would be great to have Pauly around for the long term. KW really loves this guy too, at Saturday's Q/A KW praised him for his selfless style of play. I have a feeling PK is gonna be in a Sox uniform for a long time.

LINK (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-0501170129jan17,1,6331392.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed)
I agree with you 100% and I sure as hell hope you're right. I never have, do not, and probably never will have anything bad to say about Paul Konerko.
Edit: After going back and reading the other posts in this thread, I must say that while Huff's stats may be equal to or a bit better than Paul's, we just received the assurance that Paul wants to stay with this team. What's to say Huff won't be a rent-a-player who skips off for more money after his contract is up? He would come in with absoutely no existing loyalty to the organization. You have to look beyond stats. Konerko wants to play here. He's going to hit at least 30 HR. Why are you complaining?

mdep524
01-17-2005, 01:51 PM
I agree with you 100% and I sure as hell hope you're right. I never have, do not, and probably never will have anything bad to say about Paul Konerko.
Edit: After going back and reading the other posts in this thread, I must say that while Huff's stats may be equal to or a bit better than Paul's, we just received the assurance that Paul wants to stay with this team. What's to say Huff won't be a rent-a-player who skips off for more money after his contract is up? He would come in with absoutely no existing loyalty to the organization. You have to look beyond stats. Konerko wants to play here. He's going to hit at least 30 HR. Why are you complaining?

Jose Valentin was a "good guy" and wanted to stay with this team too. That's not a good reason to resign him.

soxtalker
01-17-2005, 02:22 PM
I find it interesting how things have changed on this board in a fairly short time. IIRC, it was only a year ago or so that the general cry on this board was that Paulie be traded for that proverbial "bag of balls".

Man Soo Lee
01-17-2005, 02:24 PM
A year ago, Magglio was saying all the right things too.

Mickster
01-17-2005, 02:27 PM
I find it interesting how things have changed on this board in a fairly short time. IIRC, it was only a year ago or so that the general cry on this board was that Paulie be traded for that proverbial "bag of balls".

Agreed, but.....that was:

1. Comming off a horrible '03 campaign.
2. Having Maggs in the lineup
3. Having CLee in the lineup
4. Having Jose in the lineup

With the current make-up of the team, dealing PK would truly eliminate the only "big bopper" that we have in the lineup considering Frank's questionable health.

idseer
01-17-2005, 02:30 PM
Second his split stats are downright scary in '04- .239 BA on the road with 12 HR. .239!! Should we really consider that acceptable from a guy who is making $8 million and looking for a raise and extension?



idseer says "i believe his best days are still ahead of him." While I'd like to believe that, there is a good chance he has peaked already- considering his hip condition and his home field. OK, let the controversy begin!

i've pointed this out before and i'll do it again. his home average was an abberation last year and he is NOT a guy who can't hit on the road.
in 2002 he hit .288 at home and .318 ON THE ROAD! (i won't use last season because he obviously sucked most of the year at home AND on the road)

some examples of paul's lifetime numbers too date:

bank one park .364
comerica .313
metrodome ..302
tropicana field ..316
turner field .375
veterans stadium .4.29
wrigley field .277
yankee stadium .368

he's a lifetime .278 hitter who has hit .265 on the road. i doubt there are many player who have much better spilts. he's had 309 rbi's at home and 283 on the road. 98 hr's at home, 72 on the road.
to keep promoting these lies about konerko is just stuff for haters.

you say you're no doomsday sayer .... i say you are! you look for all the worst stuff to back up your claim and ignore the information that disputes it.

A. Cavatica
01-17-2005, 02:56 PM
I'll take the unpopular side of the argument.

If you're trying to win on a budget -- and the Sox most certainly are -- then the last person you want to lock up for the long term is a slow-as-molasses first baseman with a history of inconsistency and a questionable hip, even if you get him at the bargain rate of $8 or $10 million a year.

Slow guys who can hit are a dime a dozen.

Trade him while his value's at its highest. Spend to acquire the talent that's hardest to come by: starting pitching, catcher, shortstop, centerfielder.

MUsoxfan
01-17-2005, 03:00 PM
Trade him while his value's at its highest. Spend to acquire the talent that's hardest to come by: starting pitching, catcher, shortstop, centerfielder.

Halfway done, and done

Ol' No. 2
01-17-2005, 03:04 PM
If you listened to Kenny and Ozzie talk about PK this weekend, what you heard about is not his hitting ability, but his unselfish play. The ability and willingness to do the little things, like hit behind the runner, garners a premium on this team. CLee didn't do those things and he's gone. I predict PK will sign an extension by mid-season, for something close to what he's making now.

OEO Magglio
01-17-2005, 03:07 PM
I'll take the unpopular side of the argument.

If you're trying to win on a budget -- and the Sox most certainly are -- then the last person you want to lock up for the long term is a slow-as-molasses first baseman with a history of inconsistency and a questionable hip, even if you get him at the bargain rate of $8 or $10 million a year.

Slow guys who can hit are a dime a dozen.

Trade him while his value's at its highest. Spend to acquire the talent that's hardest to come by: starting pitching, catcher, shortstop, centerfielder.
We have all 5 starting pitchers locked up through 06 plus bmac is on the way, we have a good shortstop a good catcher and a couple guys who can play centerfield.

cburns
01-17-2005, 03:07 PM
bank one park .364
turner field .375
veterans stadium .4.29
wrigley field .277


4 out of the 9 stadiums you mentioned were National League ballparks. And one of the four of those stadiums doesn't exist anymore. When is the next time we play the Braves at Turner Field? And when we do it won't be for a significant amount of games. Same with all the National League teams, except for the Cubs since we play them every year. What are his road stats against the other teams in the Central, or out in the West?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-17-2005, 03:17 PM
Konerko was being shopped right up to the very end of the winter meetings. Vizquel went to SF, and Kenny couldn't swing a deal for a pitcher, so he went to plan B. Posednik became the top of the order guy and El Duque is signed with the savings from moving Lee.

Now the Sox are talking about Konerko like he is indispensible because he is indispensible! If Frank isn't healthy, Konerko may be the only true power hitter left in our line up. What is so hard to understand about that?
:?:

Let's stop with the flowery nonsense. If KW could swing a deal for a pitcher by trading Konerko, he was prepared to do it. All this sentimental b.s. about what a great team player he is wouldn't have counted for ****.

It's a business. Not a very well managed one, but we can always hope for the future...
:cool:

stillz
01-17-2005, 03:18 PM
I was a big advocate for trading him before the CLee trade, but support keeping him now. Still, even if he's producing near his 2004 numbers come June, he shouldn't get anything over 8-9 million per.

That said, Paulie has great leadership skills, deals well with the media/fans and is an all-around classy ballplayer.

mdep524
01-17-2005, 04:58 PM
you say you're no doomsday sayer .... i say you are! you look for all the worst stuff to back up your claim and ignore the information that disputes it.

I haven't ignored anything. I acknowledge that Paulie is a good player, but it is naive to ignore all the reasons to consider trading him too. There is a chance that Konerko could become more of a liability than an asset in the years to come. It would be a shame if the Sox were saddled with that at a high price, especially considering our budget.

And some people want to pretend like Paulie is and always was destined to play the next 10 years in Chicago, but the truth is KW aggressively tried to trade him last offseason and was more than receptive to dealing him again this offseason.

Ol' No. 2
01-17-2005, 05:01 PM
I haven't ignored anything. I acknowledge that Paulie is a good player, but it is naive to ignore all the reasons to consider trading him too. There is a chance that Konerko could become more of a liability than an asset in the years to come. It would be a shame if the Sox were saddled with that at a high price, especially considering our budget.

And some people want to pretend like Paulie is and always was destined to play the next 10 years in Chicago, but the truth is KW aggressively tried to trade him last offseason and was more than receptive to dealing him again this offseason.There's a chance that Mark Buehrle could become more of a liability than an asset. Or Freddy Garcia. Or any player that you acquire in trade.

mdep524
01-17-2005, 05:27 PM
There's a chance that Mark Buehrle could become more of a liability than an asset. Or Freddy Garcia. Or any player that you acquire in trade.

True, obviously that is true for any player in general. My point is that I think there is a far greater risk of that happening with Konerko than with Freddie or Buehrle.

Whitesox029
01-17-2005, 05:28 PM
Jose Valentin was a "good guy" and wanted to stay with this team too. That's not a good reason to resign him.
I know, but what you people are suggesting is replacing Konerko with someone whose value is little more than his, and who will probably walk away in a second, leaving us with Ross Gload as our first baseman. Jose was replaced with someone within the organization (Uribe) whose stats far eclipsed his, a player who, barring a huge huge year will not be asking for much more than he is already making on his next contract.

Ol' No. 2
01-17-2005, 05:36 PM
True, obviously that is true for any player in general. My point is that I think there is a far greater risk of that happening with Konerko than with Freddie or Buehrle.I don't see any reason to think that would be true.

idseer
01-17-2005, 05:40 PM
I haven't ignored anything. I acknowledge that Paulie is a good player, but it is naive to ignore all the reasons to consider trading him too. There is a chance that Konerko could become more of a liability than an asset in the years to come. It would be a shame if the Sox were saddled with that at a high price, especially considering our budget.

And some people want to pretend like Paulie is and always was destined to play the next 10 years in Chicago, but the truth is KW aggressively tried to trade him last offseason and was more than receptive to dealing him again this offseason.

naive? please .... you can come up with reason to trade every player on the team. there is also a chance that he could hit 50 hr's and drive in 150. then what would you say? tell me your view isn't negative.

and you mouth the same old thing that's being said over and over here. paul was aggressively offered for trade? prove it. or do you base it on all the DUMB speculation here at wsi?
kw made it known there were no untouchables here. that's about it. you weren't privy to how aggressively he was doing anything ... you just repeat rumors. if he was so aggressive then you'd have to say he was a miserable failure, right?

give me a break

mdep524
01-17-2005, 05:45 PM
I know, but what you people are suggesting is replacing Konerko with someone whose value is little more than his, and who will probably walk away in a second, leaving us with Ross Gload as our first baseman. Jose was replaced with someone within the organization (Uribe) whose stats far eclipsed his, a player who, baring a huge huge year will not be asking for much more than he is already making on his next contract.

Why would a player we acquire automatically walk away in a second? If they get paid, they'll stay. Also, if your goal is to replace a player with a cheaper alternative who is signed longer and produces more (like Valentin for Uribe), then consider this: Konerko is signed through '05 while Aubrey Huff is signed through '06 at half the price with similar production.

Plus Konerko would likely fetch more in a trade from another team than it would take to acquire Huff from TB, so that's a net gain as well.

mdep524
01-17-2005, 05:51 PM
naive? please .... you can come up with reason to trade every player on the team. there is also a chance that he could hit 50 hr's and drive in 150. then what would you say? tell me your view isn't negative.

and you mouth the same old thing that's being said over and over here. paul was aggressively offered for trade? prove it. or do you base it on all the DUMB speculation here at wsi?
kw made it known there were no untouchables here. that's about it. you weren't privy to how aggressively he was doing anything ... you just repeat rumors. if he was so aggressive then you'd have to say he was a miserable failure, right?

give me a break

Yes, you CAN come up with a reason to trade every player on the team, and you should! You should look at every option that is presented to you to make your team better, and that is one thing I think KW is good at. It doesn't mean you have to execute every trade that is suggested.

My money is on Konerko signing an extention with the Sox, and hopefully producing well for years to come. But that doens't mean other options shouldn't be considered. (I don't understand your "miserable failure" point.)

SoxFanTillDeath
01-17-2005, 06:00 PM
Is anyone ever happy? My gosh. Everyone is whining that we don't have enough offense, and then they want to trade away our best hitter from last year.

You don't often find good guys in professional sports who are very good at what they do, so when you do you have to hold on to them. I know slow power-hitting 1b-men are a dime a dozen as everyone has said, but that also means that other teams aren't going to give much up in a trade for them due to their availability.

Keep Paulie. Stick with the team that we have. If you have to make a trade in June/July, fine, but let's see how this team does and how Frank's ankle feels.

Infallible
01-17-2005, 06:03 PM
I've heard that Paulie was being offered for Matt Clement and that Kelly Dransfeldt was going to play first.

idseer
01-17-2005, 06:36 PM
Yes, you CAN come up with a reason to trade every player on the team, and you should! You should look at every option that is presented to you to make your team better, and that is one thing I think KW is good at. It doesn't mean you have to execute every trade that is suggested.

your point was that he'll soon be a liability and we should look at all the reasons to trade him. my point was to suggest you stop INVENTING reasons to trade him in particular.

My money is on Konerko signing an extention with the Sox, and hopefully producing well for years to come. But that doens't mean other options shouldn't be considered. (I don't understand your "miserable failure" point.)

you said kw was 'aggressively' trying to trade him. i'm saying that if he was, then he was a miserable failure. (my point being there isn't a shred of evidence kw was aggressively trying to trade paul anymore than anyone else on the team).

you just keep piling on with these falsehoods and making up stuff about him like he can't hit on the road. i notice you didn't address my rebuttal of THAT.

HITMEN OF 77
01-17-2005, 07:02 PM
EVERY Konerko thread someone starts about him being great or getting an award and so on and so forth ALWAYS ends up with someone talking about trade talks and other nonsense. What's the deal with that?

Konerko is the best. Sign him LONG TERM. Nuf said!!

Nick@Nite
01-17-2005, 07:05 PM
EVERY Konerko thread someone starts about him being great or getting an award and so on and so forth ALWAYS ends up with someone talking about trade talks and other nonsense. What's the deal with that?

The wheels of the bus go round and round. :redneck

MUsoxfan
01-17-2005, 07:08 PM
I've heard that Paulie was being offered for Matt Clement and that Kelly Dransfeldt was going to play first.

Either that should've been in teal, or I nominate that for dopiest post of the offseason

compy75
01-17-2005, 07:10 PM
Call me crazy but.....


DON'T WE FORGET THAT KONERKO REFUSED TO GO TO THE MINORS TO WORK ON HIS SWING IN 2003! How is that unselfish? The guy will personally killing the team. He hit into a league leading 28 DPs and had 200 ABs less than everyone else.

All I am saying is that this isn't a guy who we MUST lock up. He's a steady 1B who had career years back to back. (One bad, one good) Take it for it is. It doesn't change the fact that he hit over .300 in TWO AL parks over the past 3 years. Further, it doesn't change the fact that he hit .179 for AN ENTIRE HALF of the season. Name me one great player who put together a half like that.

The guy is not Frank Thomas. Never will be, never was. He isn't the indispensable reliable cog many are making him out to be. Sure he had a great year last year, but it wasn't like any of it came when it mattered. The Sox were a non factor the last 2/3 of the season. Let's no overreact, Konerko is a solid player but he's no franchise. Paying him Franchise money is a mistake and not exploring our options could be equally fatal.

A. Cavatica
01-17-2005, 07:36 PM
We have all 5 starting pitchers locked up through 06 plus bmac is on the way, we have a good shortstop a good catcher and a couple guys who can play centerfield.

I'll concede that we're a lot better off than we were a year ago, and that we need Konerko to contend this year. But we still shouldn't sign him to a long-term contract.

Look: Hernandez is year-to-year because of age, Contreras because of inconsistency and salary. Most of our starting prospects, B-Mac excepted, project as rotation filler. Uribe might be serviceable but there won't be anyone to push him for two more seasons. A. J. is nobody's idea of an ideal long-term solution; that's why he's on a one-year contract. We look OK in center field, but what if Anderson gets hurt?

We're going to need money to fill holes next year and in the years after that, and giving Konerko a long-term deal would cripple the GM's flexibility.

Fredsox
01-17-2005, 07:40 PM
Ya know, you make a trade because you think you can improve your team by doing it. You don't do it just because you can. We also need to keep in mind that there is more to a player than his offense, or his defense. So would I trade Paulie? Sure, but here's what I gotta replace:

1. Easily 30 HR, probably more
2. 100+ RBI
3. Steady First Base play
4. A LEADER on the team. Someone who got in Frank Thomas' face when he was in one of his moods (Thomas I mean). Someone who works hard every day and is not satisfied with mediocrity. Someone who truly wants a championship.

If you want to trade him, go ahead. My goal is a World Series before a Cub one. Anything that gets us closer is ok with me, but you better be sure you move ahead rather than move behind.

cburns
01-17-2005, 08:17 PM
Here are Konerko's career numbers against on the road:

AL CENTRAL TEAMS
G AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Metrodome 49 172 .302 .356 .506 .862
Jacobs Field 48 186 .269 .335 .430 .765
Kauffman Stadium 43 172 .279 .333 .465 .798
Comerica Park 40 150 .313 .388 .453 .842

AL EAST TEAMS
G AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Camden Yards 20 75 .267 .329 .453 .783
Fenway Park 22 76 .250 .326 .289 .615
Yankee Stadium 25 95 .368 .415 .611 1.026
SkyDome 24 89 .146 .189 .213 .403
Tropicana Field 19 79 .316 .386 .582 .969

AL WEST TEAMS
G AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Edison Field 26 98 .255 .315 .429 .743
Network Associates 26 92 .228 .284 .402 .686
SAFECO Field 25 89 .258 .305 .449 .755
Arlington 29 112 223 .280 .420 .700

So, for his career on the road against AL teams he has hit:

AVG OBP SLG OPS
In the Central: .290 .353 .463 .816
In the East: .269 .329 .429 .758
In the West: .241 .296 .425 .721

Whatever you make of those stats.

mdep524
01-17-2005, 08:30 PM
your point was that he'll soon be a liability and we should look at all the reasons to trade him. my point was to suggest you stop INVENTING reasons to trade him in particular.
My point is that he may become a liability because of his hip condition. What am I inventing there?



you said kw was 'aggressively' trying to trade him. i'm saying that if he was, then he was a miserable failure. (my point being there isn't a shred of evidence kw was aggressively trying to trade paul anymore than anyone else on the team).

You're missing my whole point there. My point was that Paulie was not "The Franchise," if the right deal came along he'd've been dealt. In 2003 and in 2004. Period. In 2003 it was widely known KW talked to Los Angeles about a package involving Odalis Perez and this offseason he talked to Arizona about Randy Johson and Javier Vazquez (and, I'm guessing, to Oakland about Hudson and Mulder). I don't think the fact that all the trades fell through qualifies it as a "miserable failure," nor do I think PK or KW are "miserable failures"- those your words and I don't know where you got them from.


you just keep piling on with these falsehoods and making up stuff about him like he can't hit on the road. i notice you didn't address my rebuttal of THAT.
Falsehoods? :?: In 2004 Paul Konerko hit .239 on the road. In his career, he hits nearly 30 points lower on the road than at home (.265 away, .293 home). For reference, none of Ordonez, Thomas or Lee showed such severe home/road splits over the past 4 years. Only once, in '02, has he hit for a better average on the road than at home. Every other season has been the reverse, so you tell me which one seems to be the abberation.

jerry myers
01-17-2005, 08:39 PM
keep working with konerko the sox i believe are more than just a paycheck to him he wants championships for him and the true fans its dedication, as long as hes putting up the RBIs stand behind him.

Ol' No. 2
01-17-2005, 08:54 PM
My point is that he may become a liability because of his hip condition. What am I inventing there?



You're missing my whole point there. My point was that Paulie was not "The Franchise," if the right deal came along he'd've been dealt. In 2003 and in 2004. Period. In 2003 it was widely known KW talked to Los Angeles about a package involving Odalis Perez and this offseason he talked to Arizona about Randy Johson and Javier Vazquez (and, I'm guessing, to Oakland about Hudson and Mulder). I don't think the fact that all the trades fell through qualifies it as a "miserable failure," nor do I think PK or KW are "miserable failures"- those your words and I don't know where you got them from.



Falsehoods? :?: In 2004 Paul Konerko hit .239 on the road. In his career, he hits nearly 30 points lower on the road than at home (.265 away, .293 home). For reference, none of Ordonez, Thomas or Lee showed such severe home/road splits over the past 4 years. Only once, in '02, has he hit for a better average on the road than at home. Every other season has been the reverse, so you tell me which one seems to be the abberation.Nobody is suggesting Konerko is Cooperstown-bound. But how do you know that Huff or anyone else you get isn't going to crater? Save for one year, he's been a steady producer and with the number of young guys on the team, they need a team leader. No one should be untouchable, but it's going to be tough to get equivalent value back. If someone offers a knock-your-socks-off trade for PK, I'd deal him in a heartbeat. I would have done the PK+JG for RJ trade if they could have done it. But that's not nearly the same as looking to deal the guy. I'd try to sign him to a 3-yr deal at about the same money he's making now.

idseer
01-17-2005, 09:34 PM
My point is that he may become a liability because of his hip condition. What am I inventing there?
tell me about his hip condition.

You're missing my whole point there. My point was that Paulie was not "The Franchise," if the right deal came along he'd've been dealt. In 2003 and in 2004. Period. In 2003 it was widely known KW talked to Los Angeles about a package involving Odalis Perez and this offseason he talked to Arizona about Randy Johson and Javier Vazquez (and, I'm guessing, to Oakland about Hudson and Mulder). I don't think the fact that all the trades fell through qualifies it as a "miserable failure," nor do I think PK or KW are "miserable failures"- those your words and I don't know where you got them from.

all of which is surmised by people right here at this website. fact is you're 'guessing' the whole thing! how about ANY proof he was dangled for rj or vazquez ... or mulder or hudson.
the 'miserable failure' comment was sarcasm ... apparently you never did get that.

Falsehoods? :?: In 2004 Paul Konerko hit .239 on the road. In his career, he hits nearly 30 points lower on the road than at home (.265 away, .293 home). .......................
Only once, in '02, has he hit for a better average on the road than at home. Every other season has been the reverse, so you tell me which one seems to be the abberation.
you just PROVED it was an abberation. his average difference is 28 points. last year the difference was 78!

(edit: it's even a greater disparity than that! take away last year and his lifetime split might not even be 20. 20 vs 78!)

so i'll say it again. last year was an ABBERATION!

the falsehood is in your suggeseting that last year was his norm. and that we should be concerned about it.

and i qoute .... "his split stats are downright scary in '04- .239 BA on the road with 12 HR. .239!! Should we really consider that acceptable from a guy who is making $8 million and looking for a raise and extension?"

you don't want to be fair about pk and everything you say varifies this. you spread the negative gossip as truth and ignore his accomplishments and contributions to this team. but that's ok. you're not alone in this.
there's lots of pk hate to go around still.

JUribe1989
01-17-2005, 09:52 PM
I've heard that Paulie was being offered for Matt Clement and that Kelly Dransfeldt was going to play first.

Pauly will not be traded, but why don't we bring back Dransfeldt to play some infield this year. He hit over 300 while he was up and had some very clutch hits.

Whitesox029
01-17-2005, 10:02 PM
Why would a player we acquire automatically walk away in a second? If they get paid, they'll stay. Also, if your goal is to replace a player with a cheaper alternative who is signed longer and produces more (like Valentin for Uribe), then consider this: Konerko is signed through '05 while Aubrey Huff is signed through '06 at half the price with similar production.

Plus Konerko would likely fetch more in a trade from another team than it would take to acquire Huff from TB, so that's a net gain as well.
If Huff is producing the same for half the money, then why would TB trade him for Konerko straight up? Either we would be paying part of Konerko's salary (a wash) or we would be giving up more than just Konerko (another wash). What you say may be practical, but is it realistic?

Aside from all that, it's just never a good idea to trade a fan favorite.

wsbaseball9
01-17-2005, 10:15 PM
i think it would be great to trade for huff, mostly since huff's contract is for less and he is a more steady hitter, homeruns dont win as many ball games as RBIs

and idseer do you find enjoyment in hating on people or is that just part of your personality?
and konerko will never hit 50+ homers in a season, id put money on it right now

mdep524
01-17-2005, 10:22 PM
If Huff is producing the same for half the money, then why would TB trade him for Konerko straight up? Either we would be paying part of Konerko's salary (a wash) or we would be giving up more than just Konerko (another wash). What you say may be practical, but is it realistic?

In terms of those hypothetical trades, the idea was the Sox trade Marte to TB for Huff in one trade and then trade Konerko to a different team in a second trade. But that is just speculation, I am not necessarily advocating that and its not a real rumor or anything.

mdep524
01-17-2005, 10:42 PM
tell me about his hip condition.
He has an abnormal hip condition. That is a fact. Whether it becomes as serious as, say, Albert Belle's degenrative hip condtion (that forced Belle to retire) or just a minor nuisance is unknown. We'll find out in time.


all of which is surmised by people right here at this website. fact is you're 'guessing' the whole thing! how about ANY proof he was dangled for rj or vazquez ... or mulder or hudson.
What kind of "proof" do you want? KW to type up a press release for you to say "Yes, I once considered trading Paul Konerko for Randy Johnson"? KW admitted publicly he had discussions with Arizona and Oakland this offseason. Are you seriously trying to say that PK was not mentioned in these trade talks? This is a White Sox message board- if you don't think Paulie was brought up in trade talks the past two years you haven't been following baseball very closely.

the 'miserable failure' comment was sarcasm ... apparently you never did get that.
We use teal for sarcasm, to avoid the confusion.


you just PROVED it was an abberation. his average difference is 28 points. last year the difference was 78!

(edit: it's even a greater disparity than that! take away last year and his lifetime split might not even be 20. 20 vs 78!)

so i'll say it again. last year was an ABBERATION!

the falsehood is in your suggeseting that last year was his norm. and that we should be concerned about it.
Konerko's career splits show a big disparity between his home and road performance. 30 points difference in BA. Then last year it was even bigger. You can't ignore that. I'm not saying anything about "norms"- you are.


you don't want to be fair about pk and everything you say varifies this. you spread the negative gossip as truth and ignore his accomplishments and contributions to this team. but that's ok. you're not alone in this.
there's lots of pk hate to go around still.
You don't seem to respond to reason well. I am trying to say trading Konerko is an option, as is keeping him. I am bringing up some reasons to consider a trade, not to slander Konerko's name--considering two sides to an issue is a healthy exercise. He's a good guy and a good player. Don't take it so personally.

Whitesox029
01-17-2005, 10:55 PM
In terms of those hypothetical trades, the idea was the Sox trade Marte to TB for Huff in one trade and then trade Konerko to a different team in a second trade. But that is just speculation, I am not necessarily advocating that and its not a real rumor or anything.
It's good that you don't advocate it, because it's not a good idea. (Why would they take Marte for Huff anyway?)

Infallible
01-17-2005, 10:57 PM
Pauly will not be traded, but why don't we bring back Dransfeldt to play some infield this year. He hit over 300 while he was up and had some very clutch hits.

Yes my post should've been teal in regards to the Clement deal, but you're right with Dransfeldt he did well in his limited limited appearances last year.

Either that should've been in teal, or I nominate that for dopiest post of the offseason

It was either that or they were going to trade Konerko to the Yankees for Dwight Gooden as the new special assistant for our club.....

mdep524
01-17-2005, 11:54 PM
It's good that you don't advocate it, because it's not a good idea. (Why would they take Marte for Huff anyway?)

From that beackon of journalistic integrity, the New York Post:

http://www.nypost.com/sports/38265.htm




Aubrey Huff is available, but Tampa is demanding an elite power arm.

*
I think I read it somewhere else as well, where "bullpen" arm was mentioned.

TtotheDHolla
01-18-2005, 12:04 AM
pauly is the man.

gosox41
01-18-2005, 08:10 AM
I find it interesting how things have changed on this board in a fairly short time. IIRC, it was only a year ago or so that the general cry on this board was that Paulie be traded for that proverbial "bag of balls".

FWIW, I'd still look to trade him if the Sox fall out of conentention this year. Hopefully they can get more then a bag of balls for him now.


Bob

idseer
01-18-2005, 09:46 AM
He has an abnormal hip condition. That is a fact. Whether it becomes as serious as, say, Albert Belle's degenrative hip condtion (that forced Belle to retire) or just a minor nuisance is unknown. We'll find out in time.

so in fact you have no CLUE as to ANY problem with paul's hip? and yet you suggest it is an imminent problem ... "if his hip condition gets worse over time, he will become even more limited physically and a big injury risk."
once again, please tell me about this 'abnormal hip condition".

What kind of "proof" do you want? KW to type up a press release for you to say "Yes, I once considered trading Paul Konerko for Randy Johnson"? KW admitted publicly he had discussions with Arizona and Oakland this offseason. Are you seriously trying to say that PK was not mentioned in these trade talks? This is a White Sox message board- if you don't think Paulie was brought up in trade talks the past two years you haven't been following baseball very closely.

it's pretty simple what i'm asking for. don't change your tone now and say it's an assumption that his name was 'mentioned' in trade talk over the last 2 years. you said ... "but the truth is KW aggressively tried to trade him last offseason"
so i ask again ... where is your proof of this aggressiveness?
kw admitted he had discussions with arizona and oakland? that's your proof of aggressively trying to trade paul?

Konerko's career splits show a big disparity between his home and road performance. 30 points difference in BA. Then last year it was even bigger. You can't ignore that. I'm not saying anything about "norms"- you are.

did you just ignore what i stated? prior to last year konerko's splits weren't any different than almost every other ball player. i'd say it dropped into the average catagory. last year was, as i said, an abberration. i don't expect anything like it again. you, otoh, assume that he'll always do it.
"his split stats are downright scary in '04- .239 BA on the road with 12 HR. .239!! Should we really consider that acceptable ... ?"

You don't seem to respond to reason well. I am trying to say trading Konerko is an option, as is keeping him. I am bringing up some reasons to consider a trade, not to slander Konerko's name--considering two sides to an issue is a healthy exercise. He's a good guy and a good player. Don't take it so personally.

i respond to reason quite well. the problem seems to be you aren't using any. part of the problem is you're trying to soften your stance now by saying trading paul is just an option. well duh! trading anyone is an option!
it's just that you keep picking on PAUL! and i say you ARE slandering him

you started this saying paul is a one dimensional player (strike one). well, he's not! he has EVERYTHING but speed. how is that being one dimensional? he hits for average .277, .304, .282, .298, .294 in 5 of the past 6 years. he has a good glove. he obviously hits for power. he's a smart team player who hit's behind runners when it's called for. nothing wrong with his arm as far as i know.
so the 'one dimension' thing is just something haters say here that you regurgitate as if it's fact.

you say his if his "hip condition' gets worse over time he will become even more limited physically and a big injury risk (strike two).
the only problem with this is ... there's been no indication of any of this. you can't even tell me what his hip condition is!

you say he can't hit on the road (strike 3)
i've shown you how he's always hit just fine on the road with last year being the ONLY exception. he's driven in the runs, he's hit the homers, he's hit for average.

you say kenny has "aggressively" tried to trade him (strike 4)

no evidence of this. more regurgitation.


in your first post you stated all this nonsense and ended with "OK, let the controversy begin!"
well here it is.
all i ask is that you prove ANYTHING you've said.

SoxFanTillDeath
01-18-2005, 11:29 AM
I love this thread. Arguments are so much fun to watch enfold when you're not a part of it... :cool:

(not that anyone cares, but I support PK and therefore I'm rooting for idseer.)

Death match anyone?

cburns
01-18-2005, 12:48 PM
I remember reading about Konerko being mentioned in trade talks in all the newspapers and espn, with the whole NYY-ARZ-Sox talk. With him and Garland being the most talk about players the Sox would be possibly trading.

idseer
01-18-2005, 01:07 PM
I remember reading about Konerko being mentioned in trade talks in all the newspapers and espn, with the whole NYY-ARZ-Sox talk. With him and Garland being the most talk about players the Sox would be possibly trading.

and yet neither was traded. how about that?
guess the papers you read were wrong. :smile:

anyone can speculate anything. i just want to see where kenny actually made an offer including pk.
in fact considering the claim that was made (trying to trade him aggressively) i'd like to see a few.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-18-2005, 01:13 PM
I remember reading about Konerko being mentioned in trade talks in all the newspapers and espn, with the whole NYY-ARZ-Sox talk. With him and Garland being the most talk about players the Sox would be possibly trading.

Exactly. Nobody would offer KW a workable deal. So he went to Plan B. Now all the lovey-dovey talk (from both Konerko and the front office) is a result of the plain fact both Lee and Ordonez are gone. Next to Frank, Konerko figures to be the most potent power hitter on our team.

Still some people apparently (?) think Konehead ought to be traded while the opposite group apparently expects (?) the rest of us to genuflect at Konehead's future greatness... with or without the walker he'll need to "run" to first base.
:cool:

idseer
01-18-2005, 01:21 PM
Exactly. Nobody would offer KW a workable deal. So he went to Plan B. Now all the lovey-dovey talk (from both Konerko and the front office) is a result of the plain fact both Lee and Ordonez are gone. Next to Frank, Konerko figures to be the most potent power hitter on our team.

Still some people apparently (?) think Konehead ought to be traded while the opposite group apparently expects (?) the rest of us to genuflect at Konehead's future greatness... with or without the walker he'll need to "run" to first base.
:cool:

or maybe the truth lies somewhere in between.
no one said anything about genuflecting or even not trading him for the right price.
only time will tell if paul is still growing or has already passed his peak.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-18-2005, 01:22 PM
or maybe the truth lies somewhere in between.
no one said anything about genuflecting or even not trading him for the right price.
only time will tell if paul is still growing or has already passed his peak.

Hey pal, I'm not the one beating this dead horse of a thread. That would be YOU.

:cool:

idseer
01-18-2005, 01:25 PM
Hey pal, I'm not the one beating this dead horse of a thread. That would be YOU.

:cool:

sometimes it's good exercise george. :D:

cburns
01-18-2005, 01:38 PM
Personally I like Paulie. Having said that, I wouldn't of been sad to see him go this offseason if the trade was worth it. Like the Caballo trade, I liked him, but we now have a much better team after trading him. At least in my humble opinion.

idseer
01-18-2005, 01:45 PM
Personally I like Paulie. Having said that, I wouldn't of been sad to see him go this offseason if the trade was worth it. Like the Caballo trade, I liked him, but we now have a much better team after trading him. At least in my humble opinion.

not sure if i've given my personal take on paul.
i too like him for what he's meant to the sox.
i too would be fine with a trade that didn't end up weakening us as much as helping us. some of the trades mentioned here would have in fact left us with nothing at first for only a minor upgrade elsewhere. they made no sense. i know most of these kinds of suggestions were from unforgiving people who were incensed at his '03 season and/or those that were incensed with his speaking out against frank thomas. both silly reasons imo for dumping a good player.

mdep524
01-18-2005, 03:10 PM
so in fact you have no CLUE as to ANY problem with paul's hip? and yet you suggest it is an imminent problem ... "if his hip condition gets worse over time, he will become even more limited physically and a big injury risk."
once again, please tell me about this 'abnormal hip condition".
Sadly, I don't have Paul Konerko's x-rays at my fingertips. It is a fact that he has abnornal hips, his bones are different than normal people. He himself has admitted this before. It's not a huge deal now, but it wasn't for Albert Belle or Troy Percival early in their careers either. Nowhere did I say it is an "imminent problem," just a concern.


it's pretty simple what i'm asking for. don't change your tone now and say it's an assumption that his name was 'mentioned' in trade talk over the last 2 years. you said ... "but the truth is KW aggressively tried to trade him last offseason"
so i ask again ... where is your proof of this aggressiveness?
kw admitted he had discussions with arizona and oakland? that's your proof of aggressively trying to trade paul?

What is your problem? My point was that KW was more than willing to deal Konerko in several situations. Why you're getting your panties in a knot over the word "agressively" I don't know. Despite the lack of sworn published testimony, I think its more than clear that Paulie would be gone if the right deal had come along. If you don't want to accept that, fine. I don't have anything else to say about that to you.

]did you just ignore what i stated? prior to last year konerko's splits weren't any different than almost every other ball player. i'd say it dropped into the average catagory. last year was, as i said, an abberration. i don't expect anything like it again. you, otoh, assume that he'll always do it.
"his split stats are downright scary in '04- .239 BA on the road with 12 HR. .239!! Should we really consider that acceptable ... ?"
So you just want to completely ignore his road production last year? Hilarious. His road BAs from the past four years have been .266, .318, .223 and .239. You can't conveniently take out those last two years any more than I can take out the 2002 numbers. It is what it is.


i respond to reason quite well. the problem seems to be you aren't using any. part of the problem is you're trying to soften your stance now by saying trading paul is just an option. well duh! trading anyone is an option!
it's just that you keep picking on PAUL! and i say you ARE slandering him

...

in your first post you stated all this nonsense and ended with "OK, let the controversy begin!"
well here it is.
all i ask is that you prove ANYTHING you've said.
I refuse to polarize my argument to say "Paulie must be traded because he is evil, overpaid and useless." Re-read my very first post in this thread, my stance has not been softened at all. This is the last "response" I have for you. I am talking about Paulie in this thread because the title is "Paul Konerko," I am not picking on him and I am through justifying my middle of the road position to you when you continuously try to villainize me and put words in my mouth.

veeter
01-18-2005, 03:49 PM
I know your just trying to play Devil's advocate here but if we were to trade Konerko for Luis Castillo and or AJ Burnett, think of what our lineup would look like?

Posdenik
Castillo
Dye
Everett or Thomas
Rowand or AJ
AJ or Rowand
Uribe
Crede
Harris
The only person there that capable to hit 30 homers is Dye and he could very well get injured. And Thomas, but he wont be back until June. That lineup wouldn't have a true 3 4 or 5 hitter. And if you got AJ Burnett then you would slot at the 4 spot and do what with Garland try trade him? But without Konerko, Garland doesn't look good by himself. Konerko is also a great team leader something that every clubhouse needs, and the sox would lack. Frank Thomas could be a leader but he possibly wouldn't be there until June. The sox would have a bad March and May. Thats for sure I understand the relentless pursuit of improving the team but there is something to be said for stability. I feel it's important to keep certain people right where they are. The Sox have experienced a lot of turnover this year and I think it should end at least until the deadline if we're in the mix. When you talk of Konerko, he's definitely one of those guys who should stay put.

maurice
01-18-2005, 05:12 PM
I expect Konerko to have another strong year, benefitting again from adjusting his swing to what has become Coors East. If somebody looks at back-to-back strong years and offers him $12 million+/year, I expect KW to look for a cheaper, faster replacement (barring a major home-town discount). If Konerko's production drops off -- or if MLB GMs think his stats are more "park effect" than "elite talent" -- his chances of returning increase exponentially. IMHO, KW won't hand out another $12 million+ contract after the Magglio fiasco.

idseer
01-18-2005, 07:40 PM
This is the last "response" I have for you. I am talking about Paulie in this thread because the title is "Paul Konerko," I am not picking on him and I am through justifying my middle of the road position to you when you continuously try to villainize me and put words in my mouth.

hey, i didn't mean to turn this into a fight and i wasn't trying to villainize you. i was just taking you to task for your remarks which i feel were illconsidered.

i just get angry over the whopping number of 'let's consider trading paul konerko' threads here. you pointed out to me that this was indeed a thread about paul. well, yes it is. but it started as a positive thread about him of which there are so few without someone (in this case you) turning it into yet another let's talk about trading paul thread.
so, i'm sorry if i became a little pointed in my argument. i didn't intend to fight, only to take issue with what i felt was your agenda.

HoustonAstros967
01-18-2005, 07:57 PM
Paul Konerko is the classy guys in MLB. While everyone is hiring Scott Boras to try and get as much money as possible, Paul is willing to take less money. And this right after a 41 homer 117 RBI season. The white Sox have in my opinion one of the greatest guys in the league. I really hope that KW and Paul can work a contract extension soon.

Good players who are loyal to a team to the extent that they would take less money to stay are my definition of real baseball players. Konerko is definitely one of those guys. KONERKO RULES!

flo-B-flo
01-18-2005, 11:02 PM
i hope this is true.

paul has always seemed a serious student of the game to me and a real gamer. once or twice he's opened his mouth when maybe he shouldn't have, but who here has never done that? doesn't make him a bad person.
and he may not be the 'complete' player we'd all like to have at every position but he's one of the better 1st basemen in the game and at 28, i believe his best days are still ahead of him. Let me add that guys like Konerko are looked up too and respected in the clubhouse. Teammates like Konerko will make others give the sacrifices for the team. This leadership is just as important as the numbers.

Gosox1917
01-19-2005, 09:16 PM
Ok, I don't even know how I fell about this but I'd thought I'd give it a shot.

OOO EEE OOO, KONEEERRRRKOOOO!!!

Maybe? Let's think about it.