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View Full Version : Cubune Coverage: Oz rips Willie, reasons for optimism...


mweflen
01-14-2005, 09:22 AM
5 reasons for optimism/pessimism
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050113soxrowcenter,1,3693422.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
Ozzie to Willie: time to produce
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050113soxbits,1,1905447.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
Duque ready for challenge
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050113sox,1,4050863.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

perhaps I was just so shocked to see more than one column on the Sox in the Cubune, but I really liked their coverage today. (Guess it was a slow Cubs day...)

The best bits:

"I talked to Willie and I told him, '[general manager] Kenny Williams had to make two trades because of you, he had to spend a lot of money because you did not do your job,'" Guillen said Thursday, a day before SoxFest opens at the Hyatt Regency Chicago. Ouch! Couldn't agree more, though.

"I had a tired arm at the end of last year because I hadn't thrown for 1 years [Hernandez said]. But it was normal for rehab," he said. "After I rested, my velocity was even better [in the playoffs]." Hope it's true! And hope he's not 40+!

As far as the optimism pessimism/article, I agree with most of the points, but they missed a few.

Optimism: no more hole at C - and actual hitter for average will be producing RBI there, which offsets the losses of Lee and Ordonez

Pessimism: Injury bug may bite big - with two old players being counted on for big things, namely Frank and Duque, what happens if they tank for half a season or more?

soltrain21
01-14-2005, 09:29 AM
Yeesh, I understand Ozzie is trying to motivate Willie...but that was harsh.

mweflen
01-14-2005, 09:34 AM
Yeesh, I understand Ozzie is trying to motivate Willie...but that was harsh. What's funny is, later in that article, Ozzie goes easy on Crede, saying they may have just expected too much of him, if 20 HR and 70 RBI is what he produces, that's fine. I wonder why Willie bugs Ozzie so much - or do they respond differently to pressure? Is Crede a sensitive flower, while Harris is a shiftless layabout? Also, are they actually expecting too much of Willie?

34 Inch Stick
01-14-2005, 11:56 AM
Ozzie can shove it. Maybe if he let Willie and Uribe continue to play after Valentin came back from injury at the beginning of the season he would have continued to produce at a .300 level. I am not blind to Willie's deficiencies but Ozzie did not use him well last year.

MUsoxfan
01-14-2005, 11:59 AM
Ozzie can shove it.
I disagree with that. There's a reason he said that. The complete lack of basestealing from such a speedster (a big reason why he's even on the team) might be part of the motivation behind those comments.

If there was ever a polar opposite of Dusty Baker, it's the Ozzman

eriqjaffe
01-14-2005, 12:10 PM
And now, with pitcher Scott Schoeneweis signing with Toronto, the Sox are left with only one Boras client, Crede, who is still three years away from becoming a free agent.I thought Juan Uribe was also a Boras client?

Hosey22
01-14-2005, 12:20 PM
I don't know if I read it right, but at the end of the Ozzie and Willie article on the bottom, did it say that Comcast is going to show 20 Sox spring training games?

If that is the case then i'm a big fan of this new Comcast deal.

SEALgep
01-14-2005, 12:29 PM
Ozzie can shove it. Maybe if he let Willie and Uribe continue to play after Valentin came back from injury at the beginning of the season he would have continued to produce at a .300 level. I am not blind to Willie's deficiencies but Ozzie did not use him well last year.The guy had the green light all season, and instead became flat footed on the base paths. That's what pissed Ozzie off more than anything. Supposedly Willie is a cocky guy, which Ozzie likes. However, when you talk a big game and management is telling you to be aggressive, you can't turn into a passive bunny.

OurBitchinMinny
01-14-2005, 12:29 PM
Ozzie can shove it. Maybe if he let Willie and Uribe continue to play after Valentin came back from injury at the beginning of the season he would have continued to produce at a .300 level. I am not blind to Willie's deficiencies but Ozzie did not use him well last year.
while im not a fan at all of ozzie as a manager (loved him as player) he is right to get on willie. Willie was flatout awful last year. He was an automatic out against LHP. Maybe ozzie is on him moreso than crede because he is lazier. From what i hear, crede works his ass off. Maybe willie is just lazy. Also ozzie was on crede plenty last year. This is it for willie. Hopefully they can still can get a major league 2B, but until then willie has to step up

mweflen
01-14-2005, 12:32 PM
I thought Juan Uribe was also a Boras client?
Yeah, I noticed that when I read it. Pretty sloppy reporting - but what do you expect from a Cubbie moutpiece?

Lip Man 1
01-14-2005, 12:33 PM
Uribe changed agents in November before signing his new contract. (Gotta love the way the Sox place self imposed limits on themselves in trying to acquire talent because of 'personality differences.' Yea that'll win a championship!)

And I don't blame Ozzie at all. Harris is a very weak link. He needs to be put on notice that if he doesn't perform he goes to the bench and they'll try someone else in mid season.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 12:38 PM
while im not a fan at all of ozzie as a manager (loved him as player) he is right to get on willie. Willie was flatout awful last year. He was an automatic out against LHP. Maybe ozzie is on him moreso than crede because he is lazier. From what i hear, crede works his ass off. Maybe willie is just lazy. Also ozzie was on crede plenty last year. This is it for willie. Hopefully they can still can get a major league 2B, but until then willie has to step up
Let's not draw too many conclusions about anybody's work ethic. This isn't the first time Ozzie has publicly told Harris he needs to step up. I would leave it at that.

I'm as big a fan of psychological tactics as the next Sox Fan. I'm all in favor of Ozzie getting down on Garland because Garland clearly has the stuff to be an even better pitcher than he already is. I just don't see the talent in Harris, and no amount of verbal goading will ever change this fact.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Let's not forget Baltimore traded us Harris for the late, great Chris Singleton. Nuff said.
:cool:

Mickster
01-14-2005, 12:41 PM
Uribe changed agents in November before signing his new contract. (Gotta love the way the Sox place self imposed limits on themselves in trying to acquire talent because of 'personality differences.' Yea that'll win a championship!)
Hendry happened to be on the hot stove show last night on AM 1000 and while he didn't state why they didn't aggressively pursue Beltran like KW did, it was for identical reasons. Lip, the Sox are not the only team in MLB that will not deal with Boras. You make it sound as if Boras has realistic dealings with 29 MLB teams - the Sox being the only team excluded.

Flight #24
01-14-2005, 12:44 PM
Hendry happened to be on the hot stove show last night on AM 1000 and while he didn't state why they didn't aggressively pursue Beltran like KW did, it was for identical reasons. Lip, the Sox are not the only team in MLB that will not deal with Boras. You make it sound as if Boras has realistic dealings with 29 MLB teams - the Sox being the only team excluded.Can we stop all of this "Sox won't deal with Scott Boras" crap? They never said that. What they said is that Scott Boras has generally placed a higher value on his players than they did (which is exactly what Hendry said as well in regards to Beltran, and while it wasn't said - apparently the Astros thought so as well).

Scott himself said that he's been in discussions with KW on players. KW's comment was that he didn't expect to sign any of Scott's clients this offseason, and IIRC it was in reference to the big-$$$ guys (i.e. it's not like he wouldn't have re-signed Uribe had he stayed with Boras).

On a related note: Remember Scott's "opening bid for Beltran should be 10-yr/$200mil" comment? Apparently the Mets & Astros just weren't serious bidders since they couldn't come anywhere close to that! Yet the Sox were "not serious" when they didn't make their initial offer what Boras said was the "
opening bid", they just prepared an offer that IIRC at the time was the best one out there (which was before Hicks)

Ol' No. 2
01-14-2005, 12:46 PM
Let's not draw too many conclusions about anybody's work ethic. This isn't the first time Ozzie has publicly told Harris he needs to step up. I would leave it at that.

I'm as big a fan of psychological tactics as the next Sox Fan. I'm all in favor of Ozzie getting down on Garland because Garland clearly has the stuff to be an even better pitcher than he already is. I just don't see the talent in Harris, and no amount of verbal goading will ever change this fact.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Let's not forget Baltimore traded us Harris for the late, great Chris Singleton. Nuff said.
:cool:We also got Damaso Marte for the great Matt Guerrier. Just because you got a guy cheap doesn't mean he can't be any good. We'd all love for young players to come right out like a house afire their first season, but that's the exception. More often you get inconsistency, with parts of their game taking longer to develop than others. I'm not suggesting Harris is All-Star material, but with a little more consistency, a little better hitting against LHP and learning the ART of base stealing at the feet of Tim Raines, I think he'll more than justify a little more patience with him.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 12:49 PM
Can we stop all of this "Sox won't deal with Scott Boras" crap? They never said that. What they said is that Scott Boras has generally placed a higher value on his players than they did (which is exactly what Hendry said as well in regards to Beltran, and while it wasn't said - apparently the Astros thought so as well).

Scott himself said that he's been in discussions with KW on players. KW's comment was that he didn't expect to sign any of Scott's clients this offseason, and IIRC it was in reference to the big-$$$ guys (i.e. it's not like he wouldn't have re-signed Uribe had he stayed with Boras).
Boras plays the free agent game like Wayne Gretzky played hockey. To paraphrase what the Great One once said, "Boras doesn't skate towards where the market is. Boras skates towards where the market is going to be."

That's how you know Magglio isn't healthy. No way Boras let's his client hurt his market value. Hiding the injury is the safest way to preserve what little value Magglio actually has.
:cool:

SEALgep
01-14-2005, 12:49 PM
Let's not draw too many conclusions about anybody's work ethic. This isn't the first time Ozzie has publicly told Harris he needs to step up. I would leave it at that.

I'm as big a fan of psychological tactics as the next Sox Fan. I'm all in favor of Ozzie getting down on Garland because Garland clearly has the stuff to be an even better pitcher than he already is. I just don't see the talent in Harris, and no amount of verbal goading will ever change this fact.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Let's not forget Baltimore traded us Harris for the late, great Chris Singleton. Nuff said.
:cool:I feel the comments were less about performance, and more to do with with his lack of aggressiveness. It's not that he was being thrown out, he just never left first base.

Ol' No. 2
01-14-2005, 12:50 PM
Boras plays the free agent game like Wayne Gretzky played hockey. To paraphrase what the Great One once said, "Boras doesn't skate towards where the market is. Boras skates towards where the market is going to be."

That's how you know Magglio isn't healthy. No way Boras let's his client hurt his market value. Hiding the injury is the safest way to preserve what little value Magglio actually has.
:cool:Except it's kind of like trying to hide an elephant in your living room. I don't think he's fooling anyone.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 12:55 PM
We also got Damaso Marte for the great Matt Guerrier. Just because you got a guy cheap doesn't mean he can't be any good. We'd all love for young players to come right out like a house afire their first season, but that's the exception. More often you get inconsistency, with parts of their game taking longer to develop than others. I'm not suggesting Harris is All-Star material, but with a little more consistency, a little better hitting against LHP and learning the ART of base stealing at the feet of Tim Raines, I think he'll more than justify a little more patience with him.
I would agree with you if this wasn't at least the third time Ozzie and/or KW has called out Willie. At some point all those "ifs" you're clinging to simply can't be tolerated by the Sox anymore... and Ozzie and KW have been squealing like stuck pigs for improvement long before this latest Willie wake up call.

Who else remembers Willie failing to get down a bunt with the bases loaded last year? Even Darrin Jackson (!) was ripping on him. That's bad...
:cool:

mweflen
01-14-2005, 12:55 PM
I'm not suggesting Harris is All-Star material, but with a little more consistency, a little better hitting against LHP and learning the ART of base stealing at the feet of Tim Raines, I think he'll more than justify a little more patience with him.
I think expectations have been too high for Harris. What sticks in my craw is that, at a time when the proverbial budget clock (not to mention age clock) was ticking on a lot of the Sox' top shelf talent (i.e. Maggs, Frank, Colon), such a vital spot in both the order and the defense was entrusted to a "project" rather than a proven starter. It just felt like we wasted several big opportunities to take the division by not having a real leadoff threat for those few years.

Flight #24
01-14-2005, 12:55 PM
Boras plays the free agent game like Wayne Gretzky played hockey. To paraphrase what the Great One once said, "Boras doesn't skate towards where the market is. Boras skates towards where the market is going to be."

That's how you know Magglio isn't healthy. No way Boras let's his client hurt his market value. Hiding the injury is the safest way to preserve what little value Magglio actually has.
:cool:
I couldn't agree with you more. He singlehandedly accelerates the market (well, with some assistance from boneheaded deals like the Mets-Benson). And when one of his clients says "I cancelled my workout despite being helathy because I don't want a media circus", well.....
:kneeslap:

It's telling that the Orioles GM says he has the records, but doesn't think he has all the info....I'd be more surprised at him playing on opening day than I will be if/when he sits out the whole year.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 12:57 PM
Except it's kind of like trying to hide an elephant in your living room. I don't think he's fooling anyone. Magglio can't play. His value is next to zero.

Compared to zero, what Magglio might get from some stupid/desperate GM looks awfully good to Scott Boras. Otherwise Boras is parading his "elephant" all around the major league circus.

Stop thinking like a fan and start thinking like Scott Boras.

DaleJRFan
01-14-2005, 12:58 PM
I disagree with that. There's a reason he said that. The complete lack of basestealing from such a speedster (a big reason why he's even on the team) might be part of the motivation behind those comments.

If there was ever a polar opposite of Dusty Baker, it's the Ozzman
I agree.

I have read numerous articles the past two seasons about Willie's "mental toughness" and his "will to succeed." What he needs is a swift kick in the ass and the understanding that KW and Ozzie aren't going to wait any longer for him to reach his potential. There have been countless times when Willie had the opportunity to silence his critics, but failed to do so. If it weren't for the fact that Willie kept a rally going with a two-strike single last season after failing to lay down a sac bunt, I am convinced he would have been run out of town this off-season.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and want him to hit .300 and steal 40 bases, but he does need some tough love from Ozzie. As for the Crede-Harris remarks, if Wilie could hit 20 HRs and 70 RBIs with Crede's rockstar defense, then I would treat Willie as the Sox have treated Crede.

Ol' No. 2
01-14-2005, 01:05 PM
I would agree with you if this wasn't at least the third time Ozzie and/or KW has called out Willie. At some point all those "ifs" you're clinging to simply can't be tolerated by the Sox anymore... and Ozzie and KW have been squealing like stuck pigs for improvement long before this latest Willie wake up call.

Who else remembers Willie failing to get down a bunt with the bases loaded last year? Even Darrin Jackson (!) was ripping on him. That's bad...
:cool:I remember lots of guys failing to get a bunt down in critical situations. Aaron Rowand, Sandy Alomar... If that's your criteria, it's going to be tough to fill a 25-man roster.

I don't disagree that Ozzie's patience with Harris is running thin. They tried twice to replace him in the off-season. But there's a difference between wanting an improvement and being ready to throw in the towel on a player. I don't think they've gotten to the point where they're willing to throw in the towel yet, but the heat is definately on.

DaleJRFan
01-14-2005, 01:07 PM
I remember lots of guys failing to get a bunt down in critical situations. Aaron Rowand, Sandy Alomar... If that's your criteria, it's going to be tough to fill a 25-man roster.

I don't disagree that Ozzie's patience with Harris is running thin. They tried twice to replace him in the off-season. But there's a difference between wanting an improvement and being ready to throw in the towel on a player. I don't think they've gotten to the point where they're willing to throw in the towel yet, but the heat is definately on.
Sandy Alomar is a catcher. Aaron Rowand is a slugger. Willie Harris is a utility infielder with blazing speed and should be able to bunt. I am fairly certain that it is in the MLB "utility infielder" job description, the ability to successfully advance runners via the sacrifice bunt.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 01:10 PM
I remember lots of guys failing to get a bunt down in critical situations. Aaron Rowand, Sandy Alomar... If that's your criteria, it's going to be tough to fill a 25-man roster.

I don't disagree that Ozzie's patience with Harris is running thin. They tried twice to replace him in the off-season. But there's a difference between wanting an improvement and being ready to throw in the towel on a player. I don't think they've gotten to the point where they're willing to throw in the towel yet, but the heat is definately on.
There is no doubt in my mind Ozzie wanted Harris out of the starting 2B slot for spring training. Now he is back to publicly goading him. I'm guessing we agree if a secondbasemen the likes of catcher A.J. Pierzynski had been available for a comparable price, Willie is already on the bench.

As for how much more rope the Sox give Willie, he clearly is on borrowed time. Otherwise Ozzie doesn't even bother talking about him publicly.

jabrch
01-14-2005, 01:12 PM
I know I have asked this question before...

But if our #9 hitter, Harris, can have a .340 obp again, is that terrible?

Ol' No. 2
01-14-2005, 01:12 PM
Magglio can't play. His value is next to zero.

Compared to zero, what Magglio might get from some stupid/desperate GM looks awfully good to Scott Boras. Otherwise Boras is parading his "elephant" all around the major league circus.

Stop thinking like a fan and start thinking like Scott Boras.I have tried to think from Boras' point of view. He's got to be smart enough to know that teams aren't dumb enough to put down big money on a pig in a poke. At some point he's got to come to the realization he's not fooling anyone. The strategy seems to be to wait until all the other options are gone (Beltran, Drew, Burnitz, etc.) and hope that there will be at least one team left that's desperate enough to take a flyer on Maggs. The sad thing is that he might be right.:(:

Ol' No. 2
01-14-2005, 01:14 PM
I know I have asked this question before...

But if our #9 hitter, Harris, can have a .340 obp again, is that terrible?I think you have to look beyond averages. He was horribly inconsistent and was an automatic out against LHP. And one of the major reasons he's on the team is because of his speed. If he can't steal bases, his value takes a big hit.

DaleJRFan
01-14-2005, 01:15 PM
I know I have asked this question before...

But if our #9 hitter, Harris, can have a .340 obp again, is that terrible?
Willie hit 260 last year, and with a 340 OBP, that's great for the #9 hitter. I think Ozzie is more concerned with his ability to swipe bags, leg out would-be groundouts, turn a long single into a double, etc...

Rocklive99
01-14-2005, 01:18 PM
Yeah, he did it on the Score during the Winter Meetings on the Tellander Show too, I don't think there was a thread about it here, but I understand why after hearing that show, I was just flipping aroud and found it.

One of the questions was if he thought this team could win it all with this middle infield and Ozzie answered with something like

"I tell you what, Uribe really showed me somethin, he's great, he's the starting SS. Willie I'm not so sure about. He's been disappointing, he's really got to step it up, I'm not sure he'll be the second basemen when the season starts..."

I don't get it, he did hit a snag as far as stolen bases go, but I remember there was a stretch where he hit over .300 when he was allowed to play, and he became a very patient hitter/knew how to work the count

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 01:20 PM
I have tried to think from Boras' point of view. He's got to be smart enough to know that teams aren't dumb enough to put down big money on a pig in a poke. At some point he's got to come to the realization he's not fooling anyone. The strategy seems to be to wait until all the other options are gone (Beltran, Drew, Burnitz, etc.) and hope that there will be at least one team left that's desperate enough to take a flyer on Maggs. The sad thing is that he might be right.:(:
Exactly. Boras is betting someone is dumb enough (or desperate enough) to make an offer without examining Magglio's knee first. Boras skates to where the market is going to be.

So what's your beef? If Boras thought Magglio commanded a higher price showing his knee to everyone, we both know he (Boras) would be showing Magglio's knee to everyone.

But he (Boras) doesn't show Magglio's knee, and that's why we know Magglio is seriously hurt. Boras has already determined Magglio is worth MORE by NOT showing the knee, than he would be worth by showing the knee.

That's damning evidence... and every GM (so far) has been smart enough to figure it out. Boras is betting the market will move to where his asking price on Magglio already is... "make me an offer first."

Ol' No. 2
01-14-2005, 01:20 PM
There is no doubt in my mind Ozzie wanted Harris out of the starting 2B slot for spring training. Now he is back to publicly goading him. I'm guessing we agree if a secondbasemen the likes of catcher A.J. Pierzynski had been available for a comparable price, Willie is already on the bench.

As for how much more rope the Sox give Willie, he clearly is on borrowed time. Otherwise Ozzie doesn't even bother talking about him publicly.Well, they tried to replace him (indirectly) with Vizquel, and again with Iguchi (still trying), but they didn't go after Alex Cora, so I guess you'd have to say their opinion of Willie is somewhere in between Cora and those other guys. But I agree the not-too-subtle message is that patience is running out.

Mohoney
01-14-2005, 01:23 PM
What's funny is, later in that article, Ozzie goes easy on Crede, saying they may have just expected too much of him, if 20 HR and 70 RBI is what he produces, that's fine. I wonder why Willie bugs Ozzie so much - or do they respond differently to pressure? Is Crede a sensitive flower, while Harris is a shiftless layabout? Also, are they actually expecting too much of Willie?
I don't get it, either. Why exactly is Crede above reproach?

jabrch
01-14-2005, 01:25 PM
I think you have to look beyond averages. He was horribly inconsistent and was an automatic out against LHP. And one of the major reasons he's on the team is because of his speed. If he can't steal bases, his value takes a big hit.
I agree with you - in particular on your point about him vs LHP. He was unacceptable vs lefties. If he can't steal bases, but still can get on at a .340 clip, I can tolerate that - provided he is our worst hitter. If Raines works with him and Willie is too unskilled to steal bases, you just don't run him anymore.

I'm not saying Harris is a STUD - but on a 70mm payroll, you are going to have some weaknesses. Here's one I am willing to tolerate given that we have a 5th starter, a deep pen, a suitable OF, a passable leadoff hitter and a balanced lineup between power, obp and speed.

Flight #24
01-14-2005, 01:25 PM
That's damning evidence... and every GM (so far) has been smart enough to figure it out. Boras is betting the market will move to where his asking price on Magglio already is... "make me an offer first."
We'll see what happens, but IMO this is one bet that Boras is going to lose. Maggs will sign something that guarantees him little this year but a lot in either incentives or a team/mutual option for 2006.

Boras has been good at turning chicken salad into chicken ala king (or substitute the high-end chicken dish of your choice). But even he's going to have a tough time turning chicken crap into salad.

SEALgep
01-14-2005, 01:26 PM
I don't get it, either. Why exactly is Crede above reproach?Again, this isn't necessarily about performance. It's about Willie not putting forth his best effort. He was given the green light to steal bases, and he shyed away time and time again. That's a big no no in Ozzie's world.

mweflen
01-14-2005, 01:27 PM
I don't get it, either. Why exactly is Crede above reproach?
Well, as was stated earlier, if Harris could hit 20 dingers for 70 RBI (or for that matter, steal 40+ bags), none of us would be having this conversation. We'd all be congratulating ourselves on what a great 2B we have.

I guess Ozzie is content with Crede as a bottom of the order defensive specialist who can hit a little for power, if not for average. Personally, I get the impression Crede will figure it out and hit .270+ with 25 HR... which would probably bump him to 6 or 7 in the order.

SoxxoS
01-14-2005, 01:43 PM
I am sorry...I have no idea why everyone has this hatred towards Scott Boras. Some call him bad for sports, I call him obviously very smart. He is doing the best for his clients. If you blame anyone, blame the owners giving the contracts. Boras is just doing his job. I would want him as my agent, b/c he obviously does a better job than anyone else out there. This is basic economics:

The owner thinks-The monetary cost of the player = the benefit of putting fannies in seats and making the team better...

If the owners didn't think that a player wasn't worth it...THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE PAYING THAT MUCH.

Ol' No. 2
01-14-2005, 01:47 PM
I am sorry...I have no idea why everyone has this hatred towards Scott Boras. Some call him bad for sports, I call him obviously very smart. He is doing the best for his clients. If you blame anyone, blame the owners giving the contracts. Boras is just doing his job. I would want him as my agent, b/c he obviously does a better job than anyone else out there. This is basic economics:

The owner thinks-The monetary cost of the player = the benefit of putting fannies in seats and making the team better...

If the owners didn't think that a player wasn't worth it...THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE PAYING THAT MUCH.I don't disagree in principle. But Boras seems to go about it in a fundamentally less honest way than other agents. He got Hicks to bid against himself for Rodriguez by misleading him into thinking there was another bidder. That's dishonest. Not providing Maggs' medical information to the Sox ahead of the arbitration deadline was dishonest. And trying to get someone to pony up money for what he knows is damaged goods is dishonest.

Mohoney
01-14-2005, 01:49 PM
Well, as was stated earlier, if Harris could hit 20 dingers for 70 RBI (or for that matter, steal 40+ bags), none of us would be having this conversation. We'd all be congratulating ourselves on what a great 2B we have.

I guess Ozzie is content with Crede as a bottom of the order defensive specialist who can hit a little for power, if not for average. Personally, I get the impression Crede will figure it out and hit .270+ with 25 HR... which would probably bump him to 6 or 7 in the order.
Those 69 RBI, in my opinion, was way too low. With RISP, he only hit .237 with a .315 OBP and 4 home runs. Maybe it's just me, but that line flat-out sucks. Willie at least posted a .275/.372 line in this respect.

In essence, the only thing Crede has going for him over Willie is the 12 extra solo home runs and 5 extra home runs with a man on 1st that he hit, and I thought that this was something that we were trying to get away from.

SoxxoS
01-14-2005, 02:17 PM
I don't disagree in principle. But Boras seems to go about it in a fundamentally less honest way than other agents. He got Hicks to bid against himself for Rodriguez by misleading him into thinking there was another bidder. That's dishonest. Not providing Maggs' medical information to the Sox ahead of the arbitration deadline was dishonest. And trying to get someone to pony up money for what he knows is damaged goods is dishonest.
Is misleading Hicks really dishonest? I think it's being smart.

Let's look at it from Hicks' perspectives:

Hicks- "THere might be another bidder. There might not. The monetary cost above what I was going to pay AROD without the new bidder doesn't equal the benefit of definitely having AROD on the team. Boras might be pulling my leg, but I would rather not take the chance (Hicks decision) of losing him to the bidder and make sure AROD is in a Rangers uniform.

I agree honesty plays a moral role, but Hicks is a smart businessman, and I am sure he considered all alternatives before reaching a decision of that magnitude.

jackbrohamer
01-14-2005, 03:17 PM
We'll see what happens, but IMO this is one bet that Boras is going to lose. Maggs will sign something that guarantees him little this year but a lot in either incentives or a team/mutual option for 2006.
Never underestimate the stupidity of MLB owners.

DickAllen72
01-14-2005, 03:58 PM
Ozzie can shove it. Maybe if he let Willie and Uribe continue to play after Valentin came back from injury at the beginning of the season he would have continued to produce at a .300 level. I am not blind to Willie's deficiencies but Ozzie did not use him well last year.

I agree. When Willie was used regularly at 2B last year he played well both in the field and at the plate for the most part. It was when Ozzie kept jerking Willie around, pulling him out of the lineup and making him play CF just to accomodate his "leader" strike out king Valentin that Willie had trouble.

Anyway, what two trades did Kenny make because of Willie? Does Ozzie even know what he's talking about?

I still like Ozzie, but sometimes he makes me shake my head..... :?:

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 04:05 PM
....

Anyway, what two trades did Kenny make because of Willie? Does Ozzie even know what he's talking about?

I still like Ozzie, but sometimes he makes me shake my head..... :?:
This isn't too hard to figure out.

We traded Lee so we could get somebody (Posednick) to fill the void at the top of the order that Willie's incompetence created.

We acquired Pierzynski because the thought of creating a 7-9 sinkhole at the bottom of our order, with Harris as the dead-weight #9 hitter, was too much for KW or Ozzie to bear. We upgraded catcher because nobody was available to upgrade 3B (Crede) or 2B (Harris).

Lee and Burke are gone... but Willie still has a job. That's what Ozzie is talking about.

DickAllen72
01-14-2005, 04:07 PM
This isn't too hard to figure out.

We traded Lee so we could get somebody (Posednick) to fill the void at the top of the order that Willie's incompetence created.

We acquired Pierzynski because the thought of creating a 7-9 sinkhole at the bottom of our order, with Harris as the dead-weight #9 hitter, was too much for KW or Ozzie to bear. We upgraded catcher because nobody was available to upgrade 3B (Crede) or 2B (Harris).

Lee and Burke are gone... but Willie still has a job. That's what Ozzie is talking about.

Thats only one trade.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 04:11 PM
Thats only one trade.
Have you ever heard Ozzie speak English? That's plenty close enough to know what he meant.
:cool:

We moved two everyday position players worth more than than that sack of **** at second base. Ozzie has been pissing about him for a full year now.

DickAllen72
01-14-2005, 04:20 PM
Have you ever heard Ozzie speak English? That's plenty close enough to know what he meant.
:cool:

We moved two everyday position players worth more than than that sack of **** at second base. Ozzie has been pissing about him for a full year now.

So if Willie had hit Lefties better and stolen a few more bases we wouldn't have El Duque, Vizcaino, Podsednik & Pierzynski but we would have Lee and Burke. Who's complaining???

Harris will do much better this year.
:smile:

voodoochile
01-14-2005, 04:22 PM
So if Willie had hit Lefties better and stolen a few more bases we wouldn't have El Duque, Vizcaino, Podsednik & Pierzynski but we would have Lee and Burke. Who's complaining???

Harris will do much better this year.
:smile:
hey, I don't mind Ozzie trying to light a fire under Willie's ass. Put up or shut up time for Harris. If he can't swing it at 2B, he has no useful position on the team - especially with them sinking $9M+ into Rowand the next few years.

maurice
01-14-2005, 04:24 PM
I thought he meant trading for Robbie Alomar twice --> two trades.

KW also made two moves because Rowand didn't perform consistently early in his career while being jerked in and out of the lineup, but that seems to have worked out okay.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 04:26 PM
hey, I don't mind Ozzie trying to light a fire under Willie's ass. Put up or shut up time for Harris. If he can't swing it at 2B, he has no useful position on the team - especially with them sinking $9M+ into Rowand the next few years.
We're stuck with Harris. We couldn't find anyone better to replace him so he gets another season as the incumbent. That's why Ozzie is pissing about him (again).

If I'm Willie I'm renting my home in Chicago in 2005. He won't be starting for us next Labor Day... maybe not 4th of July either. The search for his replacement is ongoing...
:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 04:29 PM
I thought he meant trading for Robbie Alomar twice --> two trades.

KW also made two moves because Rowand didn't perform consistently early in his career while being jerked in and out of the lineup, but that seems to have worked out okay.
Trading for Alomar twice is a good theory, too.
:thumbsup:

The fact that Alomar sucks is proof how desperate the Sox have become to find anyone more able to get the job done than Harris.
:cool:

oeo
01-14-2005, 04:50 PM
I don't know if I read it right, but at the end of the Ozzie and Willie article on the bottom, did it say that Comcast is going to show 20 Sox spring training games?

If that is the case then i'm a big fan of this new Comcast deal. Yes, including the 2 games at Milwaukee.

http://chicago.comcastsportsnet.com/SoxSpringTraining.asp

beckett21
01-14-2005, 05:20 PM
I am sorry...I have no idea why everyone has this hatred towards Scott Boras. Some call him bad for sports, I call him obviously very smart. He is doing the best for his clients. If you blame anyone, blame the owners giving the contracts. Boras is just doing his job. I would want him as my agent, b/c he obviously does a better job than anyone else out there.
This is like applauding the used-car salesman for milking an extra $2000 from an unsuspecting car buyer for a $500 lemon. It's called ripping people off for profit.

In my profession I could take advantage of people if I wanted to. They believe everything I tell them. I have to be able to look myself in the mirror every day and be able to sleep at night. I have a moral obligation to my patients.

Boras is a lying conniving thief. He appears to have no moral or ethical standards. Bravo if you are his client; but he does not deserve praise. Some people have no conscience. Scott Boras is one of them.

Chisox003
01-14-2005, 05:35 PM
In the reasons for optimism/pessimism article, I thought the first 3 optimistic points are a lot stronger than any of the pessimistic points....Meaning, IMO, the Sox have a much bigger upside than downside...The worst that could happen (pessimistic) is getting a bad case of the injury bug, which is always possible. . .

Also, I think Ozzie is so upset with Willie because at times last season, Willie looked great and would go 5-5 one game, while in the next 4 games he would go 0 fer....Willie just needs more consistency, but Id still love another 2B....Taguchi, Cora, whoever it is, get em....

SoxxoS
01-14-2005, 05:43 PM
This is like applauding the used-car salesman for milking an extra $2000 from an unsuspecting car buyer for a $500 lemon. It's called ripping people off for profit.

In my profession I could take advantage of people if I wanted to. They believe everything I tell them. I have to be able to look myself in the mirror every day and be able to sleep at night. I have a moral obligation to my patients.

Boras is a lying conniving thief. He appears to have no moral or ethical standards. Bravo if you are his client; but he does not deserve praise. Some people have no conscience. Scott Boras is one of them.
beckett-I disagree with your statement. First off, the difference between a "ghost" bidder and a selling a lemon is a defective product. Big difference. If you would of asked Tom Hicks if he got a good deal after AROD jotted his name on the line, he would of said yes, or he never would have offered that type of money.
A "ghost" bidder strategy is not unethical in my opinion, but lying to clients and trying to sell products one knows are defective are a different story.

As for Magglio-if some owner is "dumb" enough to sign him to a big money contract w/o medical records, then more power to Boras, who is trying to get the most of his client. Come March 20th, however, when Maggs has no deal, then those medical records will come out of the woodwork. It's up to the owner to weigh the cost/benefit analysis of getting what you want.

beckett21
01-14-2005, 05:48 PM
beckett-I disagree with your statement. First off, the difference between a "ghost" bidder and a selling a lemon is a defective product. Big difference. If you would of asked Tom Hicks if he got a good deal after AROD jotted his name on the line, he would of said yes, or he never would have offered that type of money.
A "ghost" bidder strategy is not unethical in my opinion, but lying to clients and trying to sell products one knows are defective are a different story.

As for Magglio-if some owner is "dumb" enough to sign him to a big money contract w/o medical records, then more power to Boras, who is trying to get the most of his client. Come March 20th, however, when Maggs has no deal, then those medical records will come out of the woodwork. It's up to the owner to weigh the cost/benefit analysis of getting what you want.
I see your point. I still disagree with his tactics, but I understand what you are saying.

As for the Magglio situation--there's your *lemon* .

Lip Man 1
01-14-2005, 06:17 PM
:hijacked:

Beckett:

You are confusing morality with business. If that was the case then Uncle Jerry should have been ridden out of town on a rail for getting the state / city to give him a new stadium and he put trash on the field for many years as well as pulling the White Flag deal.

If Uncle Jerry can get away with immorality and yet still have many defenders at this site so can Scott Boras.

I'll change my opinion of Boras when Uncle Jerry starts doing the moral thing first.

Lip

:hijacked:

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 06:24 PM
Beckett:

You are confusing morality with business. If that was the case then Uncle Jerry should have been ridden out of town on a rail for getting the state / city to give him a new stadium and he put trash on the field for many years as well as pulling the White Flag deal.

If Uncle Jerry can get away with immorality and yet still have many defenders at this site so can Scott Boras.

I'll change my opinion of Boras when Uncle Jerry starts doing the moral thing first.

Lip
This has absolutely nothing to do with Jerry Reinsdorf and why you would invoke his name is beyond me except the knowledge you pretty much blame him for everything, so it's not surprising at all.
:?:

The ancient Romans had it right. Caveat emptor. If you don't want to be swindled in a deal, ask the right questions. You have no recourse unless you do your homework. If the other party flat-out lies to you, you have recourse. That's fraud and the law protects you.

:dumbash
"If only I had known..."

:tool
"I used to sell used cars. Everyone should know!"

Lip Man 1
01-14-2005, 06:31 PM
George:

Because some are saying Boras is dishonest but letting Reinsdorf slide on by. Doesn't work that way.

Boras does what he needs to do for his clients... that's what he's paid to do. The Sox don't want to deal with him which is their problem because like him or not, he has a ton of talent, that the Sox can use. Instead they let personal feelings get in the way of trying to improve the club.

Real smart.

Lip

beckett21
01-14-2005, 07:10 PM
Beckett:

You are confusing morality with business. If that was the case then Uncle Jerry should have been ridden out of town on a rail for getting the state / city to give him a new stadium and he put trash on the field for many years as well as pulling the White Flag deal.

If Uncle Jerry can get away with immorality and yet still have many defenders at this site so can Scott Boras.

I'll change my opinion of Boras when Uncle Jerry starts doing the moral thing first.

Lip
The same Jerry Reinsdorf who is loyal to his employees to a fault.

The same Jerry Reinsdorf who negotiated a more-than-generous buyout of Jay Williams' contract when he had every right and reason to void the deal completely.


I'm not a huge fan of the Chairman, he certainly has his faults and shortcomings as an owner. However, I fail to see your point here. All I see is that your hatred of Reinsdorf is blind to all reason. Let's defend Boras by picking on Reinsdorf. :?:

Sorry if I confused morality with business...I didn't know they had to be mutually exclusive of one another. Pity.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2005, 07:22 PM
George:

Because some are saying Boras is dishonest but letting Reinsdorf slide on by. Doesn't work that way.

Boras does what he needs to do for his clients... that's what he's paid to do. The Sox don't want to deal with him which is their problem because like him or not, he has a ton of talent, that the Sox can use. Instead they let personal feelings get in the way of trying to improve the club.

Real smart.

Lip
Who here said anything about it being okay for Reinsdorf to be "dishonest?" The only person invoking his name is you.
:?:

Nobody is giving anyone a pass. You're hallucinating.

And for the record, telling someone a falsehood to close a deal on more favorable terms for yourself is NOT LEGAL. It's called fraud and you can go to jail for it.

Nobody gets a pass for telling lies in negotiations, whether it's Reinsdorf or Boras.

Daver
01-14-2005, 07:28 PM
If Uncle Jerry can get away with immorality and yet still have many defenders at this site so can Scott Boras.

I'll change my opinion of Boras when Uncle Jerry starts doing the moral thing first.

Lip
Since when is it moral to outright lie for personal profit?

Or has the way Scott played Tom Hicks been overlooked?

Jerry IS doing Scott, and his client, a favor by not seeking legal action for their violation of the CBA agreement, which could be construed as breach of contract, and therefore subject to financial recompanse.


Last time I checked, there is no morality clause in the charter for owning an MLB franchise, but there is an ethical oath taken by every lawyer when he recieves his liscense to commit law.

Suffice it to say I would question Scott Boras' ethics.

B M l o t 7
01-14-2005, 10:16 PM
Why is Ozzie ripping on Willie when Joe Crede is the one who has been playing full time for some time now..... and he has still not produced. It seems to me that everyone is going soft on Crede and hard Willie, if anything they should be ripping on Crede, Harris has even had a full season yet. I think it would be better if they tried pushing Crede to produce.

veeter
01-15-2005, 10:39 AM
Ozzie can shove it. Maybe if he let Willie and Uribe continue to play after Valentin came back from injury at the beginning of the season he would have continued to produce at a .300 level. I am not blind to Willie's deficiencies but Ozzie did not use him well last year. I couldn't agree more.

Lip Man 1
01-15-2005, 12:08 PM
Beck:

In a perfect world maybe but remember Enron and Haliburton? The game isn't played that way apparently.

George:

If it's fraud then why don't these smart savvy businessmen ever sue him? Maybe because they can't prove it? Maybe because it never happened?

Scott Boras is not the prince of darkness folks...he's doing his job. As George stated one time in the past if you want to talk about really bad people, look what the owners did to players for almost 100 years.

Lip

johnny_mostil
01-15-2005, 12:37 PM
This isn't too hard to figure out.

We traded Lee so we could get somebody (Posednick) to fill the void at the top of the order that Willie's incompetence created.

We acquired Pierzynski because the thought of creating a 7-9 sinkhole at the bottom of our order, with Harris as the dead-weight #9 hitter, was too much for KW or Ozzie to bear. We upgraded catcher because nobody was available to upgrade 3B (Crede) or 2B (Harris).

Lee and Burke are gone... but Willie still has a job. That's what Ozzie is talking about.

But that doesn't make any sense. Podsednik's OBP was lower than Harris'. Harris leadoff OBP, .343, wasn't all that good but it wasn't really a problem. You can't just expect Willie to turn into Luis Castillo because you want him to. There's nothing in his history that says he can do much better.

Pierzynski is a good player and catcher was the biggest potential hole. Lee had to go because he just finished a career season at an age where lots of players have career seasons and because the Sox had too many LF/1B/DH clones.

The offseason tells me Kenny has adopted part of the Moneyball ethic even if he missed the stathead part.

johnny_mostil
01-15-2005, 12:38 PM
Beck:
If it's fraud then why don't these smart savvy businessmen ever sue him? Maybe because they can't prove it? Maybe because it never happened?


They never sue anybody. The only one who ever had the guts was Schott, who sued Dave Parker after he spent his contract coked to the gills.

flo-B-flo
01-15-2005, 12:58 PM
Let's not draw too many conclusions about anybody's work ethic. This isn't the first time Ozzie has publicly told Harris he needs to step up. I would leave it at that.

I'm as big a fan of psychological tactics as the next Sox Fan. I'm all in favor of Ozzie getting down on Garland because Garland clearly has the stuff to be an even better pitcher than he already is. I just don't see the talent in Harris, and no amount of verbal goading will ever change this fact.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Let's not forget Baltimore traded us Harris for the late, great Chris Singleton. Nuff said.
:cool: Maybe Willie just isn't that good. No instincts to be a base stealer. Lotsa guys that had way less speed than Willie were very good base stealers.

RKMeibalane
01-15-2005, 01:02 PM
From what i hear, crede works his ass off.

I disagree. If anything, I think that Crede has probably been one of the laziest players on the ballclub over the past year. There was information reported by Joe Crowley not too long ago regarding Crede's problems last seasoin, and that most of his struggles were the result of his not listening to Greg Walker or anyone else who tried to help him. That seems to have changed druing this off-season, as Crede has been working with Walker on his swing, but until he puts a full season of solid baseball together, I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

And, furthermore, how exactly were the Sox expecting too much of Crede. I think most people I talked with projected his numbers to end up at .275/25/85. That doesn't seem like too much to me. Maybe I'm missing something. What I know is this: Crede didn't even come close to these numbers, especially where his batting average was concerned. If Crede had given the Sox anything besides the occasional clutch hit, they might have been able to stay with the Twins longer than they did.

And don't even get me started on Garland. There isn't a player on the Sox roster that I despise more than him. Even Borchard rates higher on my list than Judy.

beckett21
01-15-2005, 01:06 PM
Scott Boras is not the prince of darkness folks...he's doing his job.

Lip

Lip,

However you care to justify it, Scott Boras does not deserve an ounce of praise for what he does. Are you going to honestly tell me he cares one bit about his *clients* as people? What a great humanitarian that Scott Boras.

Maybe the owners deserve him. I don't know. There seems to be plenty of agents out there that seem to be doing things the right way. Maybe I am just too naive. Maybe I just don't know enough about the business.

Justify it any way you want to sir. Feel free to spearhead the campaign to start the FOSB since it is such a noble cause.

Two wrongs do not make a right. You are letting your hatred of Reinsdorf cloud the issue.

RKMeibalane
01-15-2005, 01:07 PM
Why is Ozzie ripping on Willie when Joe Crede is the one who has been playing full time for some time now..... and he has still not produced. It seems to me that everyone is going soft on Crede and hard Willie, if anything they should be ripping on Crede, Harris has even had a full season yet. I think it would be better if they tried pushing Crede to produce.

Exactly. As much as I would like to see Harris produce more, I tend to agree with PHG's assesment that he just may have not have the ability to be a good hitter. Some players don't. Crede, on the other hand, has had more than two seasons to get his act together, and with the excetion of a few spurts, he hasn't been getting the job done. He was killing the Sox with his lackluster offensive play after Frank went down with the ankle injury. I think the home run he hit to beat Detroit actually hurt him more than it helped. Crede strikes me as the type of player who thinks he's better than he really is. He hits one homer, and then he spends the next two weeks trying to hit more, causing his performance to drop off.

Harris definitely deserves criticism from Ozzie and anyone else who cares to offer an opinion on the subject, but if people are going to rip on Willie, then they need to do the same with Crede. People were comparing this guy to Robin Ventura when he came up. Except for a few instances here and there, I haven't seen anything from Crede that reminds me of Robin. Ventura was always a player who could be counted on to have a quality at-bat. That's not the case with Crede, nor has it ever been.

FarWestChicago
01-15-2005, 01:12 PM
Justify it any way you want to sir. Feel free to spearhead the campaign to start the FOSB since it is such a noble cause.:borass: :windsock:

Lip's always got our back, He's a great judge of character!

voodoochile
01-15-2005, 01:14 PM
I disagree. If anything, I think that Crede has probably been one of the laziest players on the ballclub over the past year. There was information reported by Joe Crowley not too long ago regarding Crede's problems last seasoin, and that most of his struggles were the result of his not listening to Greg Walker or anyone else who tried to help him. That seems to have changed druing this off-season, as Crede has been working with Walker on his swing, but until he puts a full season of solid baseball together, I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

And, furthermore, how exactly were the Sox expecting too much of Crede. I think most people I talked with projected his numbers to end up at .275/25/85. That doesn't seem like too much to me. Maybe I'm missing something. What I know is this: Crede didn't even come close to these numbers, especially where his batting average was concerned. If Crede had given the Sox anything besides the occasional clutch hit, they might have been able to stay with the Twins longer than they did.

And don't even get me started on Garland. There isn't a player on the Sox roster that I despise more than him. Even Borchard rates higher on my list than Judy.

Didn't Crede refuse to go play winter ball in Mexico last year? Or was that the year before?

RKMeibalane
01-15-2005, 01:17 PM
I know I have asked this question before...

But if our #9 hitter, Harris, can have a .340 obp again, is that terrible?

The problem is that Harris wasn't always hitting in the number nine spot. He spend a good portion of 2004 in the leadoff spot, setting the table for Frank, Paulie, and Carlos. When he struggled, the Sox offense slowed down, because pitchers were content to walk the three big guys in the middle of the lineup. After Frank went down, things got even worse because Konerko didn't get any good pitches to hit. Meanwhile, Harris was still sucking.

I would agree with your point if it weren't for the fact that the Sox counted on Harris to produce last season, and he didn't get it done. The Sox have failed to win their division the past three seasons primarilly because each team has had several players (Koch, Crede, Harris, Ritchie, etc.) whose struggles hurt the team and prevented it from winning consistently. The 2005 Sox don't necessarily need a career year from anyone. What they do need, however, is for players to stop tanking and put together solid seasons. If every player on the roster performs at or near his capability, the Sox should have no problem winning the division.

This is, of course, assuming that Frank comes back soon, and that no one else gets hurt, but the fact remains that there are several players who have question marks attached to their names entering the season. Harris is one of them, and he needs to step up.

RKMeibalane
01-15-2005, 01:18 PM
Didn't Crede refuse to go play winter ball in Mexico last year? Or was that the year before?

I'm not sure when it happened. He did refuse to go, however, and that speaks volumes about his work ethic, or lack thereof.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-15-2005, 02:14 PM
George:

If it's fraud then why don't these smart savvy businessmen ever sue him? Maybe because they can't prove it? Maybe because it never happened?

Scott Boras is not the prince of darkness folks...he's doing his job. As George stated one time in the past if you want to talk about really bad people, look what the owners did to players for almost 100 years.

Lip

Now I'm completely confused.
:o:

If you're suggesting the behavior of Boras is to be commended because the behavior of Jerry Reinsdorf is abhorrent, then I would have serious reservations about your own moral compass, Lip -- forget about those two shysters. They deserve each other.

I spend most of my work day preparing, negotiating, and executing deals with outside companies... and I have done so for most of 20 years. Some of the people I deal with are good and honest people and some aren't. Some are smart businessmen and some aren't. And some are to be trusted and others aren't. It's my JOB to understand how to negotiate (or not negotiate) with all of them. My own company wouldn't give me the job if I couldn't.

I wouldn't trust Jerry Reinsdorf *or* Scott Boras any further than I could throw them. I could go and on about how I reached this conclusion (and I often have), but the notion you've reached a completely different conclusion I find both strange and not very flattering.

And the fact this thread has turned into yet another Jerry Reinsdorf bashing session is the most unflattering part of all.

beckett21
01-15-2005, 02:18 PM
Now I'm completely confused.
:o:

If you're suggesting the behavior of Boras is to be commended because the behavior of Jerry Reinsdorf is abhorrent, then I would have serious reservations about your own moral compass, Lip -- forget about those two shysters. They deserve each other.

I spend most of my work day preparing, negotiating, and executing deals with outside companies... and I have done so for most of 20 years. Some of the people I deal with are good and honest people and some aren't. Some are smart businessmen and some aren't. And some are to be trusted and others aren't. It's my JOB to understand how to negotiate (or not negotiate) with all of them. My own company wouldn't give me the job if I couldn't.

I wouldn't trust Jerry Reinsdorf *or* Scott Boras any further than I could throw them. I could go and on about how I reached this conclusion (and I often have), but the notion you've reached a completely different conclusion I find both strange and not very flattering.

And the fact this thread has turned into yet another Jerry Reinsdorf bashing session is the most unflattering part of all.

:yup:

Thanks PHG. You have succinctly made my point better than I could have myself.

Shorty1983
01-15-2005, 06:33 PM
I'm not sure if this article was previously posted but here it is anways. We have a strong bullpen and we should keep it that way. Marte stays. Peapod can improve in the longrun, lets not giveup on the little man.


Barry Jackson -Miami Herald

Although the Marlins like Luis Castillo and would be happy to keep him, a Marlins insider said one reason they re-signed Damion Easley was to give them the option of trading Castillo and his $4.5 million salary. If the Marlins can't sign Carlos Delgado, their free-agent options will be limited to much cheaper role players such as Ben Grieve, Tony Clark and Brad Fullmer.
----------------------------------------
If Castillo was on the block [which likely could happen if the Marlins signed Delgado, as they'd be $13 mill over last years payroll] the sox would probably top any offer to get him. [Kind of like Freddy Garcia last yr.] Why? Because Castillo could fill a huge question mark at 2B and at the top of the order.
the Marte talk makes sense as they could use a LHP in the pen. They lost Benitez, and replaced him w/ Alfonseca though MOta would be the closer. Improving the bullpen and getting salary relief would have to be appealing to the fish.