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View Full Version : Rolen is a good idea: Here's the trade


beausox
10-18-2001, 06:35 PM
Vsahjpal (sorry if I misspelled it) had a great idea about bringing in Rolen. The Phillies would take Crede (and maybe even Leifer in trade). They could also have Singleton (they aren't happy with Galnville's lead-off skills and a young pitcher or two. Plus, they also have a logjam at catcher. They have Lieberthal, comimng back form an injury, Johnny Estrada a young kid they really like, and Todd Pratt.

Here's my proposal:

Sox get:

Rolen-NL ROY 1997, gold glove winner
Mike Lieberthal-All-star Goldglove winner, 29 years old

Phillies get:

Crede-Young Prospect
Singelton-.300 hitting CF
Ginter/Barcelo/Wright/Biddle/Vining
Liefer/Another pitcher

This would be a great deal for us, Rolen is 27, Lieberthal 29 and we get two 30 HR guys who are GOLD GLOVERS, we've all said we needed defense, and we deal from our depth. Kenny Williams should get moving on this one.

Daver
10-18-2001, 06:52 PM
I would rather keep Crede than have Rolen.

Vsahajpal
10-18-2001, 07:06 PM
While they would take Crede to replace Rolen, they wouldn't take Singleton, Liefer, or guys like Vining or Biddle.

Rollins will bat leadoff, Marlon Byrd will replace Glanville in center next year, and with Burrell, Valent, Abreu, and Travis Lee, they have no need for Liefer.

They lack quality pitching. They've got a few young guys with good arms (i.e. Duckworth, Brett Myers, Gavin Floyd), but not many.

I think Barcelo, Wright, and Ginter would be a good start.

danman31
10-18-2001, 09:17 PM
Here's what we do with Philly.

We get:
Mike Lieberthal

We give:
2 young pitchers(Ginter, Barcelo, Wright, any other expendable prospects)

We keep Crede, and let them keep Rolen. They probably would do this deal too. But I'm not sure, would the Phills do this deal??

KempersRS
10-18-2001, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by danman31
Here's what we do with Philly.

We get:
Mike Lieberthal

We give:
2 young pitchers(Ginter, Barcelo, Wright, any other expendable prospects)

We keep Crede, and let them keep Rolen. They probably would do this deal too. But I'm not sure, would the Phills do this deal??

The Phils are not so secure at catcher at the moment. Johnny Estrada has shown some flashes, but hasn't really proved all that much. Pratt was the number 1 man last year, and that says very little. I think the Phils are still very attatched to Liebs.

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2001, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
The Phils are not so secure at catcher at the moment. Johnny Estrada has shown some flashes, but hasn't really proved all that much. Pratt was the number 1 man last year, and that says very little. I think the Phils are still very attatched to Liebs.


It was a tough decision but I have decided that if asked I would give the Phillies Josh Paul. :)

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by daver
I would rather keep Crede than have Rolen.

Daver, what's got you sold on Crede? Or, what don't you like about Rolen?

Daver
10-18-2001, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen


Daver, what's got you sold on Crede? Or, what don't you like about Rolen?

Rolen is another weak bat ala Royce Clayton,and Crede,in his limited chances in the big leagues,shows that he has a good bat,and with the proper help could put up close to Robin Ventura type numbers.Crede also has proven he can play third base well,why do we trade a young player that has a lot of upside for another Royce Clayton?

But then again what the hell do I know?

GASHWOUND
10-18-2001, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by daver


Rolen is another weak bat ala Royce Clayton,and Crede,in his limited chances in the big leagues,shows that he has a good bat,and with the proper help could put up close to Robin Ventura type numbers.Crede also has proven he can play third base well,why do we trade a young player that has a lot of upside for another Royce Clayton?

But then again what the hell do I know?

Rolen is another weak bat? Come on daver, Rolen is not a weak bat. He's not only a clutch hitter, he is a .280 hitter, 25-30 hr guy and can knock in 100 rbi's. Royce can't do any of those things. He's a gamer.(Rolen that is)
I'll snatch him up in a second.

duke of dorwood
10-18-2001, 10:18 PM
I like Rolen too. But I seem to remember points falling from averages of guys that go from artificial turf to grass home fields. The grass will help his fielding though.

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by daver


Rolen is another weak bat ala Royce Clayton,and Crede,in his limited chances in the big leagues,shows that he has a good bat,and with the proper help could put up close to Robin Ventura type numbers.Crede also has proven he can play third base well,why do we trade a young player that has a lot of upside for another Royce Clayton?

But then again what the hell do I know?

The Bio:

(OK.....WARNING, WARNING....Heavy Publicity Front Ahead!)

When Scott reached the big leagues in 1996, many scouts said he'd become the best Phillies third basemen since Mike Schmidt. Comparing anyone to a Hall of Famer like Schmidt is somewhat foolish, but Scott certainly provides a sizzling bat and electric glove. Able to hit for both power and average, he slammed 21, 31, 26 and 26 home runs in the four seasons leading up to 2001 despite back and ankle injuries that took their toll. Scott can crush a fastball and is also an intelligent baserunner who knows when to take a chance. In the field, he's simply one of the best with good quickness and a rifle arm.

Scott was a unanimous choice as the National League's Rookie of the Year in 1997, and the clear choice of his fellow players for Outstanding Rookie. Becoming the first Phillie to win the award since Richie Allen in 1964, he led NL freshmen in a host of categories including batting average (.283), home runs (21), RBIs (92), runs (93), hits (159), doubles (35) and total bases (263). Scott bettered those numbers in 1998 when he hit .290, with 31 homers and 110 RBIs. He also won his first Gold Glove at the age of 23, tying Brooks Robinson as the youngest third basemen ever to win it. Scott was a tremendous athlete in his Indiana high school and was even recruited in basketball by the likes of Georgia and Oklahoma State.

The Stats:

http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5/5668/career.html

Where's the Clayton connection? You sure we're not wanting to leave this position open for Valentin in case Crede fails to live up to his potential?

But then, what the hell does anybody know?

Daver
10-18-2001, 10:28 PM
I hope we never see Valentin at third base ever again,that experiment failed in a big way,but I think everyone is bailing on Crede way to early,this guy has all the tools to be more than Rolen ever thought to be and you don't want to give him the chance.

But then again what the hell do I know?

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by daver
I hope we never see Valentin at third base ever again,that experiment failed in a big way,but I think everyone is bailing on Crede way to early,this guy has all the tools to be more than Rolen ever thought to be and you don't want to give him the chance.

But then again what the hell do I know?

It's not me that doesn't want to give Crede the chance....that's been Sox management. I'm just saying that we need to be prepared going into next year to win the division, win the AL championship and make it to the World Series. We should expect nothing less.

That means having few to no iffy spots defensively, offensively and pitching-wise. Crede is iffy. Rolen is proven. If Crede goes on elsewhere to be a star, shame on Sox management for not giving him the opportunity after Ventura left. We need to start thinking sure thing at each position. That doesn't mean that an injury or off-year isn't possible. But, we can't accept gray areas.

Other positions include:

Left Field
Shortstop
Catcher
#1 Starter

Barring mass injuries again, we should be able to shore up our middle relief (a major disappointment this year). If we don't get a #1 starter over the winter, we have a 50% chance to make the ALCS. Where have all the catchers (ala Fisk) gone? Long time passing. We need one in a bad way. Forget Paul and Johnson....they're scrubs. Eat Alomar's salary. He's not worth having around. Lee needs to be packaged to acquire some of our needs. Clayton could work. Only if the right combination is matched. If we find somebody else....and Clayton doesn't like eating some bench....**** him. He's getting paid. At least he offers late inning defensive help (in the event Valentin plays).

OK, I'll stop now. The main point is.....we need to think "no ifs" to advance to the playoffs/ALCS/WS next year. And damnit, we should expect nothing less from Sox management (or ourselves, for that matter).

Daver
10-18-2001, 11:09 PM
We have a number one starter,his name is Mark Buehrle.
If the Sox could carry Royce's pathetic bat for the first half they can easily allow Crede some growing room.
Are you saying that Aaron Rowand is not a leftfeilder?
With Crede and his glove at third I have no problem with Valentin at SS,he has the best range of any of the Sox infeilders.
With the lineup the Sox should have in 2002 do you really need an all-star caliber catcher?

But then again what the hell do I know?

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 11:31 PM
The breakdown....

Originally posted by daver


We have a number one starter,his name is Mark Buehrle. "His best year in professional baseball. Why do you want to place all that pressure on him? What if he succumbs to the sophmore jinx? Who becomes the #1 starter then? #1 starter by committee?" (IF)

If the Sox could carry Royce's pathetic bat for the first half they can easily allow Crede some growing room. "Now why would we want to go through that again?" (BIG IF)

Are you saying that Aaron Rowand is not a leftfeilder? "Rowand has great potential. He's a keeper (for now). I think he should be platooned with Singleton in CF. If the Sox move Lee, he could be their LF." (DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION)

With Crede and his glove at third I have no problem with Valentin at SS,he has the best range of any of the Sox infeilders.
"Haven't seen Crede's glove at the ML level. Get off Valentin, please. He's only at SS if the Sox make big improvements defensively elsewhere. Otherwise, he's traded. There is no other place for Jose. Sorry." (IF, IF, IF)

With the lineup the Sox should have in 2002 do you really need an all-star caliber catcher? "Yes. They need a solid catcher to handle a still-young pitching staff. The results will be seen in the W-L column plus various other pitcher stats. Paul and Johnson are scrubs. We need a solid catcher. Forget Alomar."

But then again what the hell do I know?

WinningUgly!
10-18-2001, 11:45 PM
We have too many other holes that need to be filled before we worry about 3rd base. Crede will be a solid 3rd baseman for several years & at a pretty affordable price(for now). I'm not sure what Rolen's contract staus is or how much he makes, but I'll bet he makes a decent chunk of change. There's no way this organization will spend big money on a 3rd baseman, when they have a young potential stud like Crede ready to go. I like Crede & I think he'll be a .285/25-30hr/85-100rbi guy someday, with solid defense to go along with it....

....but what the hell do I know? I said the same ***** about Chris Snopek!!!!!!

RichieRichAllen
10-19-2001, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!

....but what the hell do I know? I said the same ***** about Chris Snopek!!!!!!

I'm afraid that might disqualify you from making any sane predictions for the next three years. Might want to consult your physician. Don't settle for over-the-counter relief.

Bmr31
10-19-2001, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by daver
I would rather keep Crede than have Rolen.


so would i.....

Paulwny
10-19-2001, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!

....but what the hell do I know? I said the same ***** about Chris Snopek!!!!!!

Good to see I wasn't the only one who thought Snopek would be ml material.

dougs78
10-19-2001, 10:59 AM
It's not me that doesn't want to give Crede the chance....that's been Sox management. I'm just saying that we need to be prepared going into next year to win the division, win the AL championship and make it to the World Series. We should expect nothing less.


exactly...richallen you can have my full support on this one. I agree that if we expect to really challenge for a title next year we do have to enter the season with very few question marks. i would be all for getting a proven player like rolen at 3rd base and also fill other holes we have. i am more than willing to give young guys a shot like crede at 3rd and rowand in the OF, but seriously if you look at the teams who are truly competetive they don't go into seasons with 4-5 question marks. i think its great to hvae such a deep farm system, but if you look at what teams that have been successful do with their farm systems, it is almost always trading some of them away for immediate help. we have to trust thta our system will keep putting out quality and not keep thinking that we have the nucleus of the '27 yankees playing in charlotte and birmingham and "oh boy just wait til 2005, then they'll be in their prime" I'm certainly not saying that I want to go hog wild trading away our farm system, but I think it only makes sense to make some smart trades to improve our clubs actual performance this year, instead of relying on potential.

Well, thats my diatribe for today. thanks for reading.

doug

CredeFan
10-19-2001, 02:12 PM
I obviously like Daver's idea

Iwritecode
10-19-2001, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by CredeFan
I obviously like Daver's idea

I would have never guessed...

Welcome aboard!!!

:)

oldcomiskey
10-20-2001, 02:17 PM
heres what I think---
1b is solid with Konerko or Hurt--Im not disallowing a trade of PK at this point)
2b---is fairly solid--Durham needs to put 01 behind him
ss-a disaster defensively in 00 turned into a huge mistake in 01==clayton has got to go
3b---I hate to see Milk go---but if Crede is ready--which I dont think he is---put him in there..
lf-Lee is an offensive weapon but has the range of a lawn chair--he can go ONLY if we get someone quality in return
cf--Singleton, who I didnt like before I like now--he showed he has the grit not to let anyone have his job--base running blunders aside
rf--If Maggs goes--Im gonna be pissed
c--HELP
SP--question marks everywhere--what ifs are running amok here
bullpen should be pretty good

SOXSINCE'70
10-20-2001, 09:31 PM
Gotta wonder about this one.I love Lieberthal,but he's too injury prone (a la Alomar).I have heard people question Rolen's attitude as well.Let's find a veteran starting pitcher first.