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View Full Version : Should the White Sox have offered Magglio arbitration?


WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 01:23 AM
I thought about this a while ago and it's been on my mind lately; what if the Sox had offered Magglio Ordonez salary arbitration? I know there was a discussion a while ago about the pro's and cons of doing such a thing, but looking at it now, on January 8th when Magglio is still a free agent, I really wonder what might have happened?

Considering Nomar Garciapara rejected a 4 year deal given to him by the Red Sox worth $60 million dollars and eventually signed a 1 year deal worth $8 mill plus incentives with the Cubs, I really think Magglio would have agreed to a similar contract with the White Sox after seeing how bad the market is. The reason I compare the two is not only because they both rejected astonishing offers from their original 2004 teams, but they also had injury plagued seasons and face numerous health questions.

In my opinion, if the Sox had offered Magglio arbitration, Jermaine Dye would not have been signed. Instead, the Sox would have had either reached a deal with Magglio by now or would have until 11PM tonight to reach a deal. I truly think if the latter had taken place, Magglio would have accepted the Sox offer. I read somewhere that the arbitrator may have rewarded Magglio somewhere near $11 million next year. I think that's really overpriced and see him being rewarded about $8-$9 mill. That being said, some of you may say, "this would mean some of the other FAs we signed would not have been signed". I don't think that would be the case. Currently the Sox payroll is $68.8 million (thank you MisterB :wink: ) including Jermaine Dye's $4 million. If you take out his $4 million (since he probably would not have been signed), the payroll is $64.8. I also read that JR planned to have a payroll of $72 million in 2005. Doing the simple math, 72-64.8 = 7.2. If Magglio was rewarded $9 (probably worst case scenario), the Sox would have a payroll of $73.8 million. I honestly believe JR would have allowed the payroll to go up to $1.8 mill over budget just to keep Magglio (or we would have not have made little moves like signing Kevin Walker, etc.). If this were to take place, our lineup would look like this...

1) Podsednik - LF
2) Rowand - CF
3) Ordonez - RF
4) Konerko - 1B
5) Thomas - DH
6) Uribe - SS
7) Pierzynski - C
8) Crede - 3B
9) Harris - 2B

...compared to this lineup without him and with Jermaine Dye...

1) Podsednik - LF
2) Rowand - CF
3) Thomas - DH
4) Konerko - 1B
5) Dye - RF
6) Uribe - SS
7) Pierzynski - C
8) Crede - 3B
9) Harris - 2B

Obviously the difference is 3-5. I think we can all agree that Ordonez/Konerko/Thomas looks a lot better than Thomas/Konerko/Dye.

The floor is your's now ladies and gentlemen, what do you think?

The_Cheesiest_Idiot
01-08-2005, 01:27 AM
NO. magglio will not even WORK OUT for teams so they can see if he is healthy. him accepting arbitration means he WILL get paid. magglio screwed himself by not signing the contract early in the season. now he's trying to get every dollar he can with the devil himself.

DrCrawdad
01-08-2005, 01:36 AM
I believe Magglio would have gone to arbitration, knowing that he'd get 13-16 million and could then fly next year. It's my opinion that Borass and Maggs whole game of the "workout" and talk of playing for the Cubs was in an effort to get the Sox to offer arbitration.

It's my understanding that the least the Sox could offer Magglio, even from arbitration, was 20% less than 15 million, his salary in '04.

Daver
01-08-2005, 01:42 AM
I believe Magglio would have gone to arbitration, knowing that he'd get 13-16 million and could then fly next year. It's my opinion that Borass and Maggs whole game of the "workout" and talk of playing for the Cubs was in an effort to get the Sox to offer arbitration.

It's my understanding that the least the Sox could offer Magglio, even from arbitration, was 20% less than 15 million, his salary in '04.
It would take a legal expert to sort it out, but Magglio denied the Sox legal right to subject himself to a physical while still under contract to the team, which is a violition of the CBA agreement.

FarWestChicago
01-08-2005, 01:44 AM
It would take a legal expert to sort it out, but Magglio denied the Sox legal right to subject himself to a physical while still under contract to the team, which is a violition of the CBA agreement.:borass:

I figured it was worth a try. Look at all the other crap I've gotten away with!

WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 01:47 AM
I believe Magglio would have gone to arbitration, knowing that he'd get 13-16 million and could then fly next year. It's my opinion that Borass and Maggs whole game of the "workout" and talk of playing for the Cubs was in an effort to get the Sox to offer arbitration.

It's my understanding that the least the Sox could offer Magglio, even from arbitration, was 20% less than 15 million, his salary in '04.
Couldn't the two-sides have also mutually agreed to adeal instead of going to an arbitrator? After Nomar signed his deal, I think Magglio would have been more vulnerable to sign a similar deal. Sweeten it up a bit, offer him a 1-year deal worth $9 million (guranteed) with incentives (games played, home runs, team success, all-star and other personal awards) and an option for 2006 worth around $14 million if he reaches certain marks (once again; games played, home runs, RBIs, etc.).

Church Turtle
01-08-2005, 01:53 AM
Whether it means this or not, an athlete not submitting to a physical suggests the athlete has something to hide.:anon:

FightingBillini
01-08-2005, 02:06 AM
Couldn't the two-sides have also mutually agreed to adeal instead of going to an arbitrator?
No! By arbitration rules, a player can't make less than 80% of what he did the year before. BEST CASE SCENARIO, the Sox would get Maggs for one year at $12 mil. He would have undoubtably accept the arbitration, because he isn't healthy now, and likely wont be healthy for a good portion of the season (if ever again). Maggs and Bor-ass tried to con the Sox into offering arbitration. They wouldn't let the White Sox doctors look at him, and after a long time, finally sent medical records from one of Bor-ass' in pocket doctors. He is not healthy. They knew the Sox wouldn't offer the big contract unless their doctors saw him (and certainly not after they saw how bad his knee is).
Bor-ass figured the Sox would offer arbitration thinking Maggs would sign a big deal elsewhere, and then they would get a top draft pick. The Sox didn't bite.

There is no way Maggs would have NOT have accepted arbitration. Imagine what our payroll would look like if we had an extra $8mil ($12mil - Dye) in payroll, and Joe Borchard starting in right. Not a pretty picture. No Hernandez, no AJ, and no chance at competing.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 02:08 AM
No! By arbitration rules, a player can't make less than 80% of what he did the year before. BEST CASE SCENARIO, the Sox would get Maggs for one year at $12 mil. He would have undoubtably accept the arbitration, because he isn't healthy now, and likely wont be healthy for a good portion of the season (if ever again). Maggs and Bor-ass tried to con the Sox into offering arbitration. They wouldn't let the White Sox doctors look at him, and after a long time, finally sent medical records from one of Bor-ass' in pocket doctors. He is not healthy. They knew the Sox wouldn't offer the big contract unless their doctors saw him (and certainly not after they saw how bad his knee is).
Bor-ass figured the Sox would offer arbitration thinking Maggs would sign a big deal elsewhere, and then they would get a top draft pick. The Sox didn't bite.

There is no way Maggs would have NOT have accepted arbitration. Imagine what our payroll would look like if we had an extra $8mil ($12mil - Dye) in payroll, and Joe Borchard starting in right. Not a pretty picture. No Hernandez, no AJ, and no chance at competing.OK, well what did the Astros offer Beltran that extended their deadline to sign him untril January 8th? Wasn't it artbitration? Or it was arbitration and the only difference is he will decline it? Makes no sense.

TO CLEAR THINGS UP, I am not unhappy that Magglio wasn't offered arbitration. I'm just exploring the possibility of him being offered arbitration and what could have happened. I have no regrets so far and am 100% behind KW and George W. Bush (SIKE!).

Daver
01-08-2005, 02:11 AM
OK, well what did the Astros offer Beltran that extended their deadline to sign him untril January 8th? Wasn't it artbitration? Or it was arbitration and the only difference is he will decline it? Makes no sense.
If a club offers a player abitration, they have until Jan 9th to negiotiate with him,after that date they can't offer anything until May 1st.

FightingBillini
01-08-2005, 02:12 AM
OK, well what did the Astros offer Beltran that extended their deadline to sign him untril January 8th? Wasn't it artbitration? Or it was arbitration and the only difference is he will decline it? Makes no sense.The Astros offered arbitration, and he declined it. He will get much more money and a long term contract via free-agency. If a team offers arbitration and the player rejects it, the team can negotiate with him until Jan 8. However, like I said before, there is no way Maggs turns down a garanteed $12mil. He probably would have taken the offer, and then admitted he wasn't 100%. He would say he will be back in May, and then wouldn't be back until August.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 02:23 AM
The Astros offered arbitration, and he declined it. He will get much more money and a long term contract via free-agency. If a team offers arbitration and the player rejects it, the team can negotiate with him until Jan 8. However, like I said before, there is no way Maggs turns down a garanteed $12mil. He probably would have taken the offer, and then admitted he wasn't 100%. He would say he will be back in May, and then wouldn't be back until August.
Oh, OK. I thought that if a team offered arbitration and a player accepted it, the arbitrator then tells the team what the player is worth and the team must pay the player that amount and the player has to accept whatever that number is. I never knew that players can decline the offer after it has been estimated by the arbitrator. Thank you for clearing that up.

jabrch
01-08-2005, 02:46 AM
Oh, OK. I thought that if a team offered arbitration and a player accepted it, the arbitrator then tells the team what the player is worth and the team must pay the player that amount and the player has to accept whatever that number is. I never knew that players can decline the offer after it has been estimated by the arbitrator. Thank you for clearing that up.

No...that's not how it works

If a player accepts arbitration, the player and the team have until the case date to agree to a contract. If they don't, both sides submit numbers to the arbitrator. The player number and the owner number are both considered. Both teams make their cases. And the arbitrator chooses one of those numbers. There is nothing in between. It is either the player or the owner who wins. The player is bound to that. He is signed to a 1 year deal at that price - with no way to get out.

FightingBillini
01-08-2005, 02:57 AM
No...that's not how it works

If a player accepts arbitration, the player and the team have until the case date to agree to a contract. If they don't, both sides submit numbers to the arbitrator. The player number and the owner number are both considered. Both teams make their cases. And the arbitrator chooses one of those numbers. There is nothing in between. It is either the player or the owner who wins. The player is bound to that. He is signed to a 1 year deal at that price - with no way to get out.
Yes. I dont know how I was misunderstood before. If arbitration is offered and accepted, a player can make NO LESS than 80% of what he did the year before ($12mil for Maggs). If a team doesn't offer arbitration by the deadline, they can't resign the player until may. If they team offers and the player declines, they have I believe 30 days to come to a deal. In the case of the Astros, they knew Beltran wouldn't accept, but they had to offer, otherwise he was gone.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 03:06 AM
If the team offers and the player declines, they have I believe 30 days to come to a deal.UH HUH, that I didn't know. That was the missing piece to the puzzle.
Thank you again.

What's funny is that almost every response has been a NO. Yet after 30 votes, 9 people have said YES. Where are those people? I want to hear your sides!

White Sox Randy
01-08-2005, 03:24 AM
is mentally deficient and is strongly urged to become a flubs fan because this person knows absolutely nothing about baseball.

Additionally, whoever started this poll question should be strung up by their nut sack.

PicktoCLick72
01-08-2005, 03:32 AM
We've washed our hands of Magglio so there is no use in worrying about it.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 03:45 AM
is mentally deficient and is strongly urged to become a flubs fan because this person knows absolutely nothing about baseball.

Additionally, whoever started this poll question should be strung up by their nut sack.
For a newbie, you act like you carry a lot of stroke around here. Unless your a veteran with a new name, here's my message to you; :booty: and :whatever: .

You want to question why some threads were started? Believe me, you'll find some way more questionable than this one. Oh by the way, did you vote on whether the White Sox should wear their socks up or down yet?

ChiSoxJay
01-08-2005, 07:37 AM
I agree with KW and believe the Sox did the right thing by not offering Magglio arbitration. If Magglio and Boras would of been upfront with the Sox regarding the injury, maybe they could've worked out some sort of a deal like Nomar's (depending on how severe this injury will end up being when it's all said and done). It's not financially responsible to offer a guy arbitration without knowing whether he'll even play this season.

gosox41
01-08-2005, 09:36 AM
I thought about this a while ago and it's been on my mind lately; what if the Sox had offered Magglio Ordonez salary arbitration? I know there was a discussion a while ago about the pro's and cons of doing such a thing, but looking at it now, on January 8th when Magglio is still a free agent, I really wonder what might have happened?

Considering Nomar Garciapara rejected a 4 year deal given to him by the Red Sox worth $60 million dollars and eventually signed a 1 year deal worth $8 mill plus incentives with the Cubs, I really think Magglio would have agreed to a similar contract with the White Sox after seeing how bad the market is. The reason I compare the two is not only because they both rejected astonishing offers from their original 2004 teams, but they also had injury plagued seasons and face numerous health questions.

In my opinion, if the Sox had offered Magglio arbitration, Jermaine Dye would not have been signed. Instead, the Sox would have had either reached a deal with Magglio by now or would have until 11PM tonight to reach a deal. I truly think if the latter had taken place, Magglio would have accepted the Sox offer. I read somewhere that the arbitrator may have rewarded Magglio somewhere near $11 million next year. I think that's really overpriced and see him being rewarded about $8-$9 mill. That being said, some of you may say, "this would mean some of the other FAs we signed would not have been signed". I don't think that would be the case. Currently the Sox payroll is $68.8 million (thank you MisterB :wink: ) including Jermaine Dye's $4 million. If you take out his $4 million (since he probably would not have been signed), the payroll is $64.8. I also read that JR planned to have a payroll of $72 million in 2005. Doing the simple math, 72-64.8 = 7.2. If Magglio was rewarded $9 (probably worst case scenario), the Sox would have a payroll of $73.8 million. I honestly believe JR would have allowed the payroll to go up to $1.8 mill over budget just to keep Magglio (or we would have not have made little moves like signing Kevin Walker, etc.). If this were to take place, our lineup would look like this...

1) Podsednik - LF
2) Rowand - CF
3) Ordonez - RF
4) Konerko - 1B
5) Thomas - DH
6) Uribe - SS
7) Pierzynski - C
8) Crede - 3B
9) Harris - 2B

...compared to this lineup without him and with Jermaine Dye...

1) Podsednik - LF
2) Rowand - CF
3) Thomas - DH
4) Konerko - 1B
5) Dye - RF
6) Uribe - SS
7) Pierzynski - C
8) Crede - 3B
9) Harris - 2B

Obviously the difference is 3-5. I think we can all agree that Ordonez/Konerko/Thomas looks a lot better than Thomas/Konerko/Dye.

The floor is your's now ladies and gentlemen, what do you think?
No. The sox would be on the hook for n $11 mill per year player and at the time they could have offered him arbitration they had no idea if he's even healthy to play ball.


Bob

Fredsox
01-08-2005, 10:11 AM
I heard yesterday morning on the radio (Tom Shaer I think) that Ordonez turned down 4 years at $60 million with nothing deferred AFTER he was hurt. I believe this was before he changed agents. If this is true it's clear the guy did not want to be here. Perhaps Boras was soliciting him at the time and whispering 10 years and $200 million at him like he did for Beltran.

So if he doesn't want to be here why on earth would we offer him arbitration for $12 million (or more) when we don't even know if he can play? I agree with the bulk of the posters who think we have recovered nicely from this and it's time to wish Ordonez well and move on.

1917
01-08-2005, 10:23 AM
It's a great post. But I am more then happy with what KW did with the team this year. We needed a different look. As much as I liked Maggs as a player with the Sox, he didn't lead us to where we needed to go. So I think they made the right choice. I have not read too much about Maggs getting many offers, the Flubs have sniffed around, but nobody serious. I think all of MLB knows he is damaged goods.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-08-2005, 10:29 AM
I must say, it's a pretty dumb poll question to ask. Of course there are people choosing "yes" to this dumb poll question so you *really* have to wonder about their intelligence, too.

IF Magglio wasn't hurt, and
IF he had submitted to a physical, and
IF he was given a clean bill of health to play, and
IF we had expert opinion suggesting he would remain healthy to play,

THEN MAYBE we should have offered Magglio arbitration.

The poll question doesn't qualify answers to allow for any of these scenarios. That's why it is dumb.
The "yes" voters are voting "yes" without any of these qualifiers. That's why they are even dumber.
:wink:

Palehose13
01-08-2005, 10:39 AM
No way. He would have accepted because he obviously isn't healthy and the Sox would have been handcuffed with his salary unable to make the moves that they made this offseason.

1) Podsednik - LF
2) Rowand - CF
3) Ordonez - RF
4) Konerko - 1B
5) Thomas - DH
6) Uribe - SS
7) Pierzynski - C
8) Crede - 3B
9) Harris - 2B This probably wouldn't be the line-up at all. Sure, the Lee trade would have been made(as purely a salary dump b/c of Magglio's contract), but then I highly doubt El Duque or Pierzynski (and maybe even Hermanson)would have been offered a contract. I also doubt that Magglio or Frank would be ready at the start of the season, so the Sox would once again be left with Gload and Perez as replacements...and now without Lee. The team would look like absolute crap...like last year.

Nick@Nite
01-08-2005, 10:41 AM
Should the Sox have offered Maggs arbitration? I thought hindsight was always 20/20.

nccwsfan
01-08-2005, 10:43 AM
Without having access to any of Maggs' medical records it would have made no sense for CWS management to offer him arbitration. In my mind he's damaged goods, and although I hope he recovers and can play again he is not going to be worth the money he's seeking.

The White Sox did the right thing. Good luck Maggs and hello Jermaine Dye!

SSN721
01-08-2005, 01:56 PM
I am fine with this route, the last few months have shown Maggs has no desire to be here and that he is lying, either through Borass or with his recommendation about his health condition. I would have been upset and disgusted if the Sox offered arbitration with no knowledge on his health and going completely on Borass' word. And I dont think anyone could take his word. I wouldnt trust that guy with a cup of coffee.

soxwon
01-08-2005, 02:13 PM
i think we will sign him may 1

i dont believe anyone else will offer him a deal.

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 02:15 PM
It would have been real stupid to offer him arbitration, he most likely would have accepted and that would have been our only move this offseason.

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 02:16 PM
i think we will sign him may 1

i dont believe anyone else will offer him a deal.
To much bad blood for that to happen.

soxwon
01-08-2005, 02:27 PM
To much bad blood for that to happen.

hey liz taylor and richard burton had BAD BLOOD but they married each other atleast 3 times

SaltyPretzel
01-08-2005, 02:35 PM
hey liz taylor and richard burton had BAD BLOOD but they married each other atleast 3 times
It still doesn't make it right.

Ol' No. 2
01-08-2005, 02:37 PM
There is a clause in the Uniform Player's Contract that states:

The Player represents that he has no physical or mental defects
known to him and unknown to the appropriate representative of the
Club which would prevent or impair performance of his services. The only way the Sox could have offered arbitration is with the idea that they could try to void the contract if it turned out he couldn't play because of an undisclosed condition. MAYBE if they communicated such intent ahead of time, Boras would have advised him not to accept. Even so, it's still a risk that most GM's wouldn't take just to get a couple of draft picks.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 07:44 PM
On a side-note, there is talk that if Beltran says no to the Astros tonight, Magglio Ordonez will meet with the Houston Astros and possibly get into serious discussions about a deal.

Nick@Nite
01-08-2005, 07:56 PM
I was gonna reply to the original post #33 (by WhiteSoxFan84), but it disappeared like DB Cooper into the night... where did it go? :?:

konerko1413
01-08-2005, 07:57 PM
no way... and if u have listened, read, and watched the baseball news of the past few months u should know why

WhiteSoxFan84
01-08-2005, 07:59 PM
I was gonna reply to the original post #33 (by WhiteSoxFan84), but it disappeared like DB Cooper into the night... where did it go? :?:
Considering I'm coming off suspension (:D: ) and I'm probably having a close eye kept on me, I think it was best that I deleted that message. Sorry Nick, if you want to PM me with something, go for it.

StillMissOzzie
01-08-2005, 11:19 PM
It would take a legal expert to sort it out, but Magglio denied the Sox legal right to subject himself to a physical while still under contract to the team, which is a violition of the CBA agreement.
Do the Sox have any recourse at this point? While it may be much too late for Maggs' situation, I would hate to think that Bora$ has Bud Lite's blessing to pull this crap again sometime.

As for my vote, NO to arbitration. As others have said, KW's hands would have been tied for the many other moves he made, Maggs would get a MINIMUM of $12M with NO guarantee (other than Bora$' word of honor) that he was healthy.

SMO
:gulp:

mcfish
01-09-2005, 12:46 AM
Obviously the difference is 3-5. I think we can all agree that Ordonez/Konerko/Thomas looks a lot better than Thomas/Konerko/Dye.

The floor is your's now ladies and gentlemen, what do you think?First of all, we don't agree that Ordonez/Paulie/Frank looks better than Frank/Paulie/Dye. The thousand question marks over Maggs head diminish his value quite a bit. "Ready to play right now, but no one can look at my knee." Boras canceled his workout, so he isn't healthy right now, and he won't release records or allow examinations to determine when, if ever, he will be healthy. Also, IIRC salary arbitration does not take injuries into account, so his arbitration number would probably be way too high a price to pay for an injured Magglio.

The Wunsch
01-09-2005, 01:01 PM
Affirmative, it hurts to say it but Magglio is damaged goods. KW dodged a bullet when Magglio didn't sign in 2004, we would be stuck with that for yeas to come.