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View Full Version : What are ya gonna yell at Kenny...


Realist
01-07-2005, 07:21 AM
... at this year's Sox Fest?

Granted, the boisterous and unsatisfied responses aimed at the Sox GM from us Sox fans were very warranted in the past, however this offseason seems to much more productive than those in the recent past.

Hell, we even got green seats coming. Watchagonnabitchaboutthisyear?

A.T. Money
01-07-2005, 07:30 AM
I would say, good job!

mike squires
01-07-2005, 08:01 AM
Athough Kenny didn't go out and get a HUGE free agent name, he assembled a some tough gritty ball players and a hll of a pitchng staff. You never know about Sox fans though...

OEO Magglio
01-07-2005, 08:21 AM
You never know about Sox fans though...
Yup, I'm willing to bet that someone goes off on Kenny about something probably about trading Carlos Lee. I'm sure someone goes up there and says we've lost all of our power and won't be able to hit homeruns when in reality I'm sure we still rank in the top 3rd of the league in homers.

Jjav829
01-07-2005, 08:23 AM
I'm going to bitch and moan about our lack of quality prospects to Kenny.

HomeFish
01-07-2005, 08:25 AM
We still need a real second baseman, don't forget.

OEO Magglio
01-07-2005, 08:27 AM
We still need a real second baseman, don't forget.
We got one but don't worry I'm sure Kenny brings in a veteran 2b before soxfest anyways.......

SEALgep
01-07-2005, 08:28 AM
We still need a real second baseman, don't forget.Defensively, we're fine with Harris. No Iguchi, fine, sign Cora and have a real solid utility infielder who can play second and short. I'd like to have Iguchi, but the ball is in his court. If we sign Cora and call it an offseason, I'd be more than happy. Good job KW. :bandance:

TommyJohn
01-07-2005, 08:36 AM
Watchagonnabitchaboutthisyear?
Carlos Beltran.

veeter
01-07-2005, 08:47 AM
We still need a real second baseman, don't forget. Are we suposed to have all-stars at every position? Willie is a very good defensive player and a completely unfairly bashed hitter. His struggles are right on line with players with his major league time. He never loafs and seems competitive. Someone actually went as far to say Maggs got hurt because Willie isn't a good second baseman. I mean come on!! Willie's problems are fixable. He can learn to bunt better. He can learn to get better jumps off of first. Will he? I don't know but he's no where near as bad as some guys think.

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 08:48 AM
IMO, Sox fans have nothing to bitch about. I hope that this year's Sox Fest has a very different feel than last year's. It seemed that last year people were upset about the inactivity of the Sox compunded with the major activity of the minor league club to the north.

Kenny Williams has done a great job working within his budget to bring a competitive baseball team to the South side of Chicago. I hope he hears a lot of this next weekend:

Great Job Kenny!

gosox41
01-07-2005, 08:59 AM
IMO, Sox fans have nothing to bitch about. !
Still won't stop the negative threads here.

Even I'm excited about this team and I am a known KW-basher.


Bob

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 09:02 AM
Damn You, Kenny! I can't be mad at your this year! And because of that I am mad!


:redneck

Kenny has done a great job! I can't wait to tell him how happy and excited I am.

TommyJohn
01-07-2005, 09:04 AM
Come on! They are the White Sox, for God's sake!!!! 1917???

I am sorry for the negativity, but you gotta understand. The 1984 White Sox
caused scars which have yet to heal. Some wounds are just too deep.

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 09:06 AM
Come on! They are the White Sox, for God's sake!!!! 1917???

I am sorry for the negativity, but you gotta understand. The 1984 White Sox
caused scars which have yet to heal. Some wounds are just too deep.
And KW hasn't shown you that he's going in the right direction this year?

TommyJohn
01-07-2005, 09:11 AM
And KW hasn't shown you that he's going in the right direction this year?
I do like Kenny Williams and the moves he's made. I like that he said to hell with
the future and traded Jeremy Reed. I like his "win now" attitude. But enough bad
luck has bedeviled this team that something could happen that would undo all
the work he has done.

Nick@Nite
01-07-2005, 09:13 AM
I'm disappointed... no one is gonna yell "you da man"? :redneck

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 09:27 AM
I'm disappointed... no one is gonna yell "you da man"? :redneck
FOr a bottle of Miller Lite, I will stand up and yell "You da man, Kenny" at Friday night's Q&A. I'm not kidding, but I want beer in return. :gulp:

Tekijawa
01-07-2005, 09:31 AM
The new Cubs/Sox Patio Party rules for this year... that's all I'm angry about!

Nick@Nite
01-07-2005, 09:32 AM
FOr a bottle of Miller Lite, I will stand up and yell "You da man, Kenny" at Friday night's Q&A. I'm not kidding, but I want beer in return. :gulp:If I could be there, I'd pony up. It'd be a no-brainer for me. :tongue:

DaleJRFan
01-07-2005, 09:42 AM
... at this year's Sox Fest?

Granted, the boistorous and unsatisfied responses aimied at the Sox GM from us Sox fans were very warented in the past, however this offseason seems to much more productive than those in the recent past.

Hell, we even got green seats coming. Watchagonnabitchaboutthisyear?
I am gunna yell "Great job this off-season. Thanks for making the winter exciting!!"

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 09:52 AM
FOr a bottle of Miller Lite, I will stand up and yell "You da man, Kenny" at Friday night's Q&A. I'm not kidding, but I want beer in return. :gulp:
I'll buy you the beer.

jabrch
01-07-2005, 09:56 AM
We still need a real second baseman, don't forget.

What's wrong with Harris and his .262/.343? That won't kill you.

The Wimperoo
01-07-2005, 09:59 AM
You SUCK!!! Billy Beane is better! :D:

Flight #24
01-07-2005, 10:06 AM
Were I going, I'd yell great job. At the risk of hijacking, IMO Kw's done a great job not only for htis year but for 2006 as well. By my calculations, after 2005, we can shed about 20mil in Konerko (8.75), Frank (8- 3.5buyout = 4.5), Carl (4.5), Shingo (2.5). Some of that will get eaten up in raises to guys like Pods, Buehrle, Garcia, Dye, Hernandez, etc, and hopefully they resign Frank and or Paulie at a bit lower rate. But if the team makes the playoffs this year (ie. attendance goes up), it leaves some room to possibly go get an impact player in the $10mil range.

Add to that the potential '06 debuts of Anderson, Sweeney, BMac, and soon after that - Fields and you have the potential to have a fairly nice team.

Outstanding job, Kenny!

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 10:09 AM
I'll buy you the beer.
Done. Oh, and I plan on it being Southern Baptist church-style. :D:

Tekijawa
01-07-2005, 10:14 AM
Were I going, I'd yell great job. At the risk of hijacking, IMO Kw's done a great job not only for htis year but for 2006 as well. By my calculations, after 2005, we can shed about 20mil in Konerko (8.75), Frank (8- 3.5buyout = 4.5), Carl (4.5), Shingo (2.5). Some of that will get eaten up in raises to guys like Pods, Buehrle, Garcia, Dye, Hernandez, etc, and hopefully they resign Frank and or Paulie at a bit lower rate. But if the team makes the playoffs this year (ie. attendance goes up), it leaves some room to possibly go get an impact player in the $10mil range.

Add to that the potential '06 debuts of Anderson, Sweeney, BMac, and soon after that - Fields and you have the potential to have a fairly nice team.

Outstanding job, Kenny!
Don't forget AJ, is Arbitration eligible next year, so I hope he works out and has a good season but not enough to make him too expensive next year!

anewman35
01-07-2005, 10:16 AM
The new Cubs/Sox Patio Party rules for this year... that's all I'm angry about!You know that has nothing to do with Kenny, right?

Nick@Nite
01-07-2005, 10:22 AM
Don't forget AJ, is Arbitration eligible next year, so I hope he works out and has a good season but not enough to make him too expensive next year!What? :?: I hope A.J. wins the triple crown! :wink:

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 10:35 AM
Done. Oh, and I plan on it being Southern Baptist church-style. :D:
:D: Well work out the details so we can meet up on Friday. And after the Q&A, well go get the beer. Heck maybe two. :D:

Jjav829
01-07-2005, 10:36 AM
Anyone else think that Kenny's sole motivation for making these signings/trades is to avoid another KW bashfest at Soxfest? :D:

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 10:37 AM
:D: Well work out the details so we can meet up on Friday. And after the Q&A, well go get the beer. Heck maybe two. :D:
LOL...ok. PM as we near next weekend. I may have to wait til after 3 to leave from Milwaukee cause I have to wait for friends to get off of work.

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 10:38 AM
Anyone else think that Kenny's sole motivation for making these signings/trades is to avoid another KW bashfest at Soxfest? :D:
C'mon Jjav...If you were at the Friday session (or read about it) you know that shouldn't be in teal.

Jjav829
01-07-2005, 10:42 AM
C'mon Jjav...If you were at the Friday session (or read about it) you know that shouldn't be in teal.
Well I put it in teal because I'm sure his motivation is to field a winning team. But avoiding a thorough beatdown from the fans is a great by-product of attempting to field that team.

HITMEN OF 77
01-07-2005, 10:44 AM
Anyone who goes up there and yells, boo's and all that nonsense crap at KW for last years team is is just plain stupid. He's on a budget!! Ask yourself why your driving a Ford Focus and not a Jaguar S-Type R, your on a budget (no offense to anyone here)!! Maggs and Frank fell to injury. take 2 of the best players from any team and they arent going to do crap.. I give the Sox a lot of credit for hanging in as long as they didlast year. He also went out and got Garcia, which will prove big for this years team. If anything, KW should get applauded for last years efforts and deffinetly for this years efforts.

Iwritecode
01-07-2005, 10:50 AM
Well I put it in teal because I'm sure his motivation is to field a winning team. But avoiding a thorough beatdown from the fans is a great by-product of attempting to field that team.

KW knows that we have been waiting on this team for too damn long. He has heard our complaints and has taken them to heart.

I'm sure fielding a competitive team is is first and foremost goal but I think that pleasing the fans certainly ranks almost as high.

Maybe that should be a question for him at Soxfest. :D:


Taking critisism from the fans has never been something he's shyed away from...

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 10:51 AM
KW knows that we have been waiting on this team for too damn long. He has heard our complaints and has taken them to heart.

I'm sure fielding a competitive team is is first and foremost goal but I think that pleasing the fans certainly ranks almost as high.

Maybe that should be a question for him at Soxfest. :D:
Who is volunteering to ask that one? :D:

Iwritecode
01-07-2005, 10:58 AM
Who is volunteering to ask that one? :D:

I could just see it...

"So Kenny, you've done a great job in the offseason so far this year. I'm sure putting together a championship team was the #1 reason for it, but I have to ask...

When you were making these deals did you keep thinking in the back of your mind Whew, at least I won't get yelled at by Steff again this year"

:redneck

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 11:00 AM
I could just see it...

"So Kenny, you've done a great job in the offseason so far this year. I'm sure putting together a championship team was the #1 reason for it, but I have to ask...

When you were making these deals did you keep thinking in the back of your mind Whew, at least I won't get yelled at by Steff again this year"

:redneck
Did you just volunteer? I think you worded that perfectly. :D:

DrCrawdad
01-07-2005, 11:10 AM
http://sieste.littlestar.jp/sieste/archives/image/cdg.jpg
I LOVE YOU MAN!

Iwritecode
01-07-2005, 11:13 AM
Did you just volunteer? I think you worded that perfectly. :D:

I'm not sure I'd be able to keep a straight face.

He'd have to know I'm kidding. :smile:

DrCrawdad
01-07-2005, 11:15 AM
Maybe this year we won't need this booth at SoxFest...
:therapy:

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 11:21 AM
I could just see it...

"So Kenny, you've done a great job in the offseason so far this year. I'm sure putting together a championship team was the #1 reason for it, but I have to ask...

When you were making these deals did you keep thinking in the back of your mind Whew, at least I won't get yelled at by Steff again this year"

:redneck
I think I could do it. So who's buying me the beer? :cool:

CubKilla
01-07-2005, 11:25 AM
I have nothing to yell at KW. He has structured a team similar to the team he said he was going to put together for a coach like OG when he hired him in '03. Hopefully it works out. 1917 has been a long time.

But I've been disappointed by the Sox much more often than I have been satisfied so I will go into '05 expecting what I expect from the Sox every year.

Not much.

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 11:29 AM
I think I could do it. So who's buying me the beer? :cool:
We can call it even. If one of us doesn't follow through, we owe the other a brew.

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 11:38 AM
We can call it even. If one of us doesn't follow through, we owe the other a brew.Sounds like a deal. And if we both do it, then we can laugh about it, over some beers! :D:

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 11:45 AM
Sounds like a deal. And if we both do it, then we can laugh about it, over some beers! :D:
Yep. Yep.

I need to practice dramatics and be able to identify an approriate time to yell "Kenny, You da man!". You need to practice your part with a straight face. :smile:

BTW...I am sure the KW will be made aware of our antics beforehand, so maybe we can have a few beers with him and laugh about it later!

JKryl
01-07-2005, 11:57 AM
You don't have to yell anything. He probably wouldn't hear it anyway. How about a hearty "thumbs up"?

:nandrolone

ewokpelts
01-07-2005, 12:18 PM
... at this year's Sox Fest?

Granted, the boistorous and unsatisfied responses aimied at the Sox GM from us Sox fans were very warented in the past, however this offseason seems to much more productive than those in the recent past.

Hell, we even got green seats coming. Watchagonnabitchaboutthisyear?Again...like i said last year....why raise prices, over-emphasise the cubs series, restrict ticket packages/seats and do little or nothing to improve the club? this year, however, i will demand his resignation.
Gene

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 12:25 PM
Yep. Yep.

I need to practice dramatics and be able to identify an approriate time to yell "Kenny, You da man!". You need to practice your part with a straight face. :smile:

BTW...I am sure the KW will be made aware of our antics beforehand, so maybe we can have a few beers with him and laugh about it later!
Now that would be a treat if we could share a couple of beers with him. Maybe we can get him to pay for the tab. :redneck

whitesoxwilkes
01-07-2005, 01:54 PM
Again...like i said last year....why raise prices, over-emphasise the cubs series, restrict ticket packages/seats and do little or nothing to improve the club? this year, however, i will demand his resignation.
Gene
Gene, KW doesn't control ticket prices. That's like me yelling at Tom Skilling because my street's not plowed.

Why are you demanding his resignation? Your :whiner:ing puts even Henry to shame.

zach074
01-07-2005, 03:10 PM
Im pretty sure Hangar could come up with something negative to say.

zach074
01-07-2005, 03:23 PM
Again...like i said last year....why raise prices, over-emphasise the cubs series, restrict ticket packages/seats and do little or nothing to improve the club? this year, however, i will demand his resignation.
Gene
You dont think he has done a good job this offseason?:?:

thezeker
01-07-2005, 04:25 PM
I know what I'll do when he walks into the room.

I'll give him a standing ovation!!!!

Since the middle of last season KW has made deal after deal that has strengthened and solidified this ballclub. He really has seemed to learn from his mistakes and is putting together a remarkable blend of talent for approximately $70 million.

In the over 40 years I've been watching White Sox baseball this has to go down as one of the most productive periods of any GM.

steff
01-07-2005, 04:26 PM
I was more pissed about Kenny's big mouth last year than anything else. Second was my complaining about Harris.. which, IMO, still has not been addressed much less fixed. We'll see how a week on the beach does for me. Maybe I'll mellow out a bit and my finger will be too relaxed to wave at him. :D:

steff
01-07-2005, 04:27 PM
Again...like i said last year....why raise prices, over-emphasise the cubs series, restrict ticket packages/seats and do little or nothing to improve the club? this year, however, i will demand his resignation.
Gene

You're going to yell at Kenny for raising prices.. :o:



:whiner: :whiner:

steff
01-07-2005, 04:29 PM
I could just see it...

"So Kenny, you've done a great job in the offseason so far this year. I'm sure putting together a championship team was the #1 reason for it, but I have to ask...

When you were making these deals did you keep thinking in the back of your mind Whew, at least I won't get yelled at by Steff again this year"

:redneck

LMAO... I'll ask it. :wink:

hose
01-07-2005, 04:29 PM
I'm not planning on attending, last years shouting sessions turned me off.

My only regret is I wont be kicking into the pencil pull fund.

steff
01-07-2005, 04:30 PM
I have nothing to yell at KW. He has structured a team similar to the team he said he was going to put together for a coach like OG when he hired him in '03. Hopefully it works out. 1917 has been a long time.

But I've been disappointed by the Sox much more often than I have been satisfied so I will go into '05 expecting what I expect from the Sox every year.

Not much.


Waaaoooohhhh.... hold the phone. Are YOU going this year...????

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 04:30 PM
I'm not planning on attending, last years shouting sessions turned me off.

My only regret is I wont be kicking into the pencil pull fund.
It seems that it won't be that way this year.

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 04:32 PM
LMAO... I'll ask it. :wink:
Even better.

I guess I'll be buying the beers Palehose13.

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 04:33 PM
Even better.

I guess I'll be buying the beers Palehose13.
We've got a week to think up something else for you. :wink:

steff
01-07-2005, 04:35 PM
Even better.

I guess I'll be buying the beers Palehose13.


I think he'll get a kick out of me saying.. "In the back of your mind you were worried about me finger waggin at you again.. weren't ya..?" :D:

Rocky Soprano
01-07-2005, 04:49 PM
I think he'll get a kick out of me saying.. "In the back of your mind you were worried about me finger waggin at you again.. weren't ya..?" :D:
HAHAHA, I cant wait to see his reaction. :D:

And yes palehose13, we have a week to think about, lets come up with something good. :redneck

whitesoxwilkes
01-07-2005, 05:03 PM
I'm not planning on attending, last years shouting sessions turned me off.

My only regret is I wont be kicking into the pencil pull fund.
There's a simple solution...make like Wilkes and don't go to the shouting sessions. While Ewokpelts is whining and Hangar is pontificating about the media in the Q and As, I'm gonna go be first in line for the garage sale. With a beer in my hand!

:bandance:

(And yes, I'll pull a few pencils too. I use them for keeping score during the season)

Flight #24
01-07-2005, 05:25 PM
I think he'll get a kick out of me saying.. "In the back of your mind you were worried about me finger waggin at you again.. weren't ya..?" :D:
OK, all this is making me want to chip in for that wireless camera someone wanted to buy Hangar to get his Cub-fan interactions online, but getting it to the SoxFest KW session instead!

JoseCanseco6969
01-07-2005, 05:29 PM
FOr a bottle of Miller Lite, I will stand up and yell "You da man, Kenny" at Friday night's Q&A. I'm not kidding, but I want beer in return. :gulp:
You got it palehose! By the way, as it is my first Soxfest, how much are those beers?

Jerome
01-07-2005, 05:39 PM
Carlos Lee.

Although I am very very glad to see that now we have a real fifth starter and I appriciate what he's doing with a fairly limited budget, If Podsednik doesn't have a 2003-type year, the trade might be considered little more than a salary dump. (If Podsednik does have a 2003-type year, it was a great trade). The people who are insisting that this offense will be fine may be forgetting the fact that there is no Magglio this year. Replacing or nearly replacing the production of Maggs and Clee will be quite a challenge for Rowand and Dye.

Otherwise, big thumbs up on the Dye signing, Hermanson signing, and of course El Duque and AJ. And Kevin White

This year it seems to me that KW made a numer of FA sigings that we need to make - taking a slight chance on players coming off down years or injuries but whom have the potential to put up much bigger numbers and at a reduced price. Which is certainly music to JR's ears.

Besides, like that angry fan said at last year's soxfest. Since 2004's over, let's look to 2005.

konerko1413
01-07-2005, 05:41 PM
except for losing out on omar vizquel, i think kenny did pretty much all he could with out budget and all he wanted, if crede and aj pierzinski are batting 7 and 8 (just speculating) and garland and contreras are your number 4 and 5 man, i think you owe alot to yur GM... i say great job , can i get an autograph?

petekat
01-07-2005, 07:20 PM
Hey Kenny....duck!!!

... at this year's Sox Fest?

Granted, the boisterous and unsatisfied responses aimed at the Sox GM from us Sox fans were very warranted in the past, however this offseason seems to much more productive than those in the recent past.

Hell, we even got green seats coming. Watchagonnabitchaboutthisyear?

EMel9281
01-07-2005, 07:35 PM
I am going to applaud him. He went out and did something with this team. We still may have question marks, but not nearly as many going into this offseason. Hopefully, he has one more move in him for that ****, oops...I mean MIF (or did I?)

johnny_mostil
01-07-2005, 07:53 PM
Carlos Beltran.
and Carl Pavano and Magglio Ordonez and Edgar Renteria and Pedro Martinez. All that talent was floating around and the White Sox didn't sign any of the big names. Where's Sosa? He's available for cab fare.

Palehose13
01-07-2005, 08:06 PM
You got it palehose! By the way, as it is my first Soxfest, how much are those beers?
I'm afraid that if tell you, I won't get a beer. :wink:

OEO Magglio
01-07-2005, 09:01 PM
Again...like i said last year....why raise prices, over-emphasise the cubs series, restrict ticket packages/seats and do little or nothing to improve the club? this year, however, i will demand his resignation.
Gene
I hope that was supposed to be in teal.

CubKilla
01-07-2005, 11:35 PM
Waaaoooohhhh.... hold the phone. Are YOU going this year...????
As Jerry Stiller would say in an episode of Seinfeld.....

I'm back..... BABY!

JoseCanseco6969
01-08-2005, 12:48 AM
I'm afraid that if tell you, I won't get a beer. :wink: Well then I'm assuming standard Sox prices! I guess I'll need to sneek in a flask or something to get me started.:gulp:

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-08-2005, 07:20 AM
I'm bringing my son to his 1st Soxfest, and it's my plan to stand and applaud when Kenny gets up there. Yeah, some thing haven't worked out 100% in the last few years, but ya gotta give the guy credit. How many other GM's are metioned 1 1/2 mos by Baseball Tonight daily about "What's Kenny gonna do now?" Hell, he's still working now - as Hendry is at college games instead of trying to dump Sosa.

Things can always be better. As Sox fans I think we all agree. Kenny, IMO, does the best he can with the limited amount of $$ Jerry allows him to spend.

Realist
01-08-2005, 08:18 AM
I'm bringing my son to his 1st Soxfest, and it's my plan to stand and applaud when Kenny gets up there. Yeah, some thing haven't worked out 100% in the last few years, but ya gotta give the guy credit. How many other GM's are metioned 1 1/2 mos by Baseball Tonight daily about "What's Kenny gonna do now?" Hell, he's still working now - as Hendry is at college games instead of trying to dump Sosa.

Things can always be better. As Sox fans I think we all agree. Kenny, IMO, does the best he can with the limited amount of $$ Jerry allows him to spend.
Have a great 1st Soxfest with your little guy. I completely agree with your assessment of the job Kenny has done with the resources he's been allotted.

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-08-2005, 09:38 AM
Have a great 1st Soxfest with your little guy. I completely agree with your assessment of the job Kenny has done with the resources he's been allotted.
Well I do thank you for the sentiment. I hope he "gets it" when he realizes how important this team is to people. Think about it - how many pro teams invite managers from 15+ years ago to fan meet and greets? He knows of LaRussa cuz I told him, and I think to this day he's one of the alltime greats. You'd NEVER see something like that on the North Side.

Palehose13
01-08-2005, 09:41 AM
Well I do thank you for the sentiment. I hope he "gets it" when he realizes how important this team is to people. Think about it - how many pro teams invite managers from 15+ years ago to fan meet and greets? He knows of LaRussa cuz I told him, and I think to this day he's one of the alltime greats. You'd NEVER see something like that on the North Side.
He will. I did when my dad took me to my first game 22 years ago. :smile:

jabrch
01-08-2005, 09:47 AM
Carlos Lee.

If Podsednik doesn't have a 2003-type year, the trade might be considered little more than a salary dump. (If Podsednik does have a 2003-type year, it was a great trade). [/color]

IMHO, as long as he comes in in the middle of 2003 and 2004, this deal was a bargain. That would equate to about .280/.350/.400 with a ton of SBs. If he does that - Kenny deserves a ton of credit.

Jerome
01-08-2005, 10:24 AM
IMHO, as long as he comes in in the middle of 2003 and 2004, this deal was a bargain. That would equate to about .280/.350/.400 with a ton of SBs. If he does that - Kenny deserves a ton of credit.
Yeah, I agree with you. Plus, the trade also has to be considered in what El Duque does too.

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 12:53 PM
Gene, KW doesn't control ticket prices. That's like me yelling at Tom Skilling because my street's not plowed.

Why are you demanding his resignation? Your :whiner:ing puts even Henry to shame.I would like to know why the PROFIT from raising tickets, beer, parking, ect isnt going to payroll....and let's not forget he's told us WE have to come BEFORE he raises payroll....
Gene

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 12:54 PM
You dont think he has done a good job this offseason?:?:no.....we got the yankees, a's, and giants leftovers....and traded away the wrong power hitter......
Gene

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 12:55 PM
You're going to yell at Kenny for raising prices.. :o:



:whiner: :whiner:No, I'm going to ask him why hasnt the club improved DESPITE the raisng of prices.......big difference....oh, and ask for his resignation....
Gene

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 12:57 PM
There's a simple solution...make like Wilkes and don't go to the shouting sessions. While Ewokpelts is whining and Hangar is pontificating about the media in the Q and As, I'm gonna go be first in line for the garage sale. With a beer in my hand!

:bandance:

(And yes, I'll pull a few pencils too. I use them for keeping score during the season)I'm not whining...I am going to ask a question. And demand his resignation.
Gene

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 12:58 PM
I hope that was supposed to be in teal.I'm dead serious.....
Gene

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 01:07 PM
no.....we got the yankees, a's, and giants leftovers....and traded away the wrong power hitter......
Gene
Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.

EDIT: I love it how they're leftovers because they were free agents :dtroll:

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 01:08 PM
I'm dead serious.....
Gene
If you go up to the mic and say that I hope you get booed off the stage. Not only are you making no sense you're being classless.

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 01:17 PM
Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.

EDIT: I love it how they're leftovers because they were free agents :dtroll:AJ was released.....el duque is old(how old...depends on which birth certificate you look at), and dye is injury riddled.....
Gene

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 01:20 PM
AJ was released.....el duque is old(how old...depends on which birth certificate you look at), and dye is injury riddled.....
Gene
Aj was non tendered because they signed another catcher, who cares if he's old so is randy johnson, dye had 532 at bats last year.

johnny_mostil
01-08-2005, 01:22 PM
no.....we got the yankees, a's, and giants leftovers....and traded away the wrong power hitter......
Gene
Oh, no, we definitely traded the right one...

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 01:24 PM
If you go up to the mic and say that I hope you get booed off the stage. Not only are you making no sense you're being classless.Why is that classless? It's a legitimate question. Why have so many things gone up in price, when almost NOTHING has been done?! We have traded away a future superstar because we "CANT AFFORD" him! Meanwhile , The DP KING Konerko makes more money and is not as effective. The BREWERS are LAUGHING at us! We have not won with his free agents, trades(todd ritchie anyone), or the "great" farm system that he headed(The two joes and Jon Garland spring to mind).
I think I have a right as a season ticket holder, and as someone who is now told that I HAVE to order two MORE groups just to order cubs tickets(and pay for all of them BY Wed.) This organization has gotten out of hand.
I simply want to know why the team hasent taken the money that WE THE FANS have given to the organization and use it to build a better team? a team that maybe, just maybe, could make it to the world series, let alone defeat teh mighty twins juggernaut...
Gene

p.s. as for his resignation....I may ask for it...demand is too strong of a word....I persoanlly think he is not the right man for the job.

johnny_mostil
01-08-2005, 01:29 PM
Aj was non tendered because they signed another catcher, who cares if he's old so is randy johnson, dye had 532 at bats last year.
Technicall AJ was released. He was going to be non-tendered but his agent talked them into releasing him to get started on the negotiations earlier.

Brian Sabean decided Mike Matheny has the secret recipe to Coca Cola or something like that. Seriously, Sabean pulled a "we need Royce Clayton" move, deciding that he didn't care if his catcher was a wretched hitter, he needed unmeasurable intangibles behind the plate and who has more unmeasurable intangibles than the catcher on the pennant-winning team? The fact that the Cardinals won the league by beating the twine out of the baseball with Pujols, Edmonds, Renteria, Walker, etc., didn't seem to matter.

So, once you have, for whatever reason, committed to Mike Matheny, who do you keep as your backup, a grumpy hypercompetitive Carmine or Torrealba?

Further, AJ kicked Sabean's can in arbitration last season. Arb hearings often lead to ill feelings. I don't know Sabean, of course, but maybe he planted the "cancer" rumors as payback for being flayed in arbitration?

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 01:30 PM
Why is that classless? It's a legitimate question. Why have so many things gone up in price, when almost NOTHING has been done?! We have traded away a future superstar because we "CANT AFFORD" him! Meanwhile , The DP KING Konerko makes more money and is not as effective. The BREWERS are LAUGHING at us! We have not won with his free agents, trades(todd ritchie anyone), or the "great" farm system that he headed(The two joes and Jon Garland spring to mind).
I think I have a right as a season ticket holder, and as someone who is now told that I HAVE to order two MORE groups just to order cubs tickets(and pay for all of them BY Wed.) This organization has gotten out of hand.
I simply want to know why the team hasent taken the money that WE THE FANS have given to the organization and use it to build a better team? a team that maybe, just maybe, could make it to the world series, let alone defeat teh mighty twins juggernaut...
Gene

p.s. as for his resignation....I may ask for it...demand is too strong of a word....I persoanlly think he is not the right man for the job.

Demanding his resignation is classless not the ticket part as for that like others have said it's not his responsibility. As for Carlos we got spod, vizcaino, el duque and aj for him so if you don't think that's a good trade off well......I don't know what to tell you. Little far to go and say carlos is a potential superstar when he is one of the dumbest players in the majors. I actually liked carlos but he had more then his share of dumb mistakes, Ozzie wanted him off the team too but of course you forgot to take that into consideration. If you don't think this is a better team then last year then you need to watch some more baseball.

santo=dorf
01-08-2005, 01:38 PM
ewokpelts, for the sake of all good Sox fans, please wear a Cubs jersey when you go up to the mic preparing to make an ass out of yourself.

You're going to tell KW to resign because ticket prices(what control does he have?) went up? :kukoo:

FarWestChicago
01-08-2005, 01:38 PM
I would like to know why the PROFIT from raising tickets, beer, parking, ect isnt going to payroll....and let's not forget he's told us WE have to come BEFORE he raises payroll....
GeneI think you have KW confused with Reinsy.

:reinsy

If you think Kenny sets the payroll I have a business proposition for you.

voodoochile
01-08-2005, 01:54 PM
I think you have KW confused with Reinsy.

:reinsy

If you think Kenny sets the payroll I have a business proposition for you.
You know, I can't remember the last one of those reinsy images with a fake quote below it that was actually funny... :D:

There's a joke in there somewhere about reaping and sowing so ya' know...

Honestly, I understand the people who think you need to slug your way to a pennant, but some of this stuff goes overboard.

How can it have been the wrong power hitter to trade if the other one wouldn't bring you what you wanted in return?

How can it be the wrong power hitter to trade when slugging OF were much easier to obtain this off-season than power hitting 1B? (Giambi put a dent in that market now didn't he? I mean the Yankees had to go get that amazing youn AS stud, Tino Martinez just so they had someone to cover the position).

You trade what the market will take. You sign what the market allows you to afford. You build the best team available under those constraints.

Reinsy sets the payroll (as West so aptly pointed out) KW builds the team.

The Sox have 5 solid starters, a very solid and deep bullpen, more speed and depth and haven't lost so much power that they cannot compete. Even if one can argue that Lee should have stayed (and you can, it just doesn't allow the other moves to get done), Magglio wasn't coming back and the only guy on the market who could actually replace that production is Beltran - who like it or not ain't coming to the Sox, period and actually given his price, it can be argued that is a good thing - if you accept the payroll limitations.

I don't like the payroll limitations. I think JR is a cheap and spiteful bastard, but KW hasn't exactly done a terrible job this off season and he may not even be done yet...

Here's to you KW :cheers: GO SOX!

Here's to you, Gene :whatever: GO SOX!

whitesoxwilkes
01-08-2005, 01:57 PM
p.s. as for his resignation....I may ask for it...demand is too strong of a word....I persoanlly think he is not the right man for the job.
Man, I can't wait to meet you Friday! You sound like such a fun guy!

FarWestChicago
01-08-2005, 02:18 PM
You know, I can't remember the last one of those reinsy images with a fake quote below it that was actually funny... :D:It wasn't a joke. It was an attempt to educate our friend about who establishes the Sox payroll.

:KW

It sure as hell isn't me!

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 02:56 PM
ewokpelts, for the sake of all good Sox fans, please wear a Cubs jersey when you go up to the mic preparing to make an ass out of yourself.

You're going to tell KW to resign because ticket prices(what control does he have?) went up? :kukoo:no...because the TEAM hasnt improved with the INFLUX OF CASH!
Gene

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 02:59 PM
Demanding his resignation is classless not the ticket part as for that like others have said it's not his responsibility. As for Carlos we got spod, vizcaino, el duque and aj for him so if you don't think that's a good trade off well......I don't know what to tell you. Little far to go and say carlos is a potential superstar when he is one of the dumbest players in the majors. I actually liked carlos but he had more then his share of dumb mistakes, Ozzie wanted him off the team too but of course you forgot to take that into consideration. If you don't think this is a better team then last year then you need to watch some more baseball.It's not classless. I have no confidence in his leadership of baseball operations...... No different than an investor demanding teh resignation of an exectutive. And YES....I AM AN INVESTOR...my time and money are being wasted while KW and Jr make due with little....
Gene

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 03:02 PM
Man, I can't wait to meet you Friday! You sound like such a fun guy!You shouldnt put that in teal. I actually am not that bad. Ask Henry...
I cant help if I'm a tad pissed off about how this "first class organization" has failed to produce a Ws title, let alone an appearance in almost 25 years of ownership....and I'm tired of paying up the nose to see the "great" players KW aquired....peope like this guy:

:ralomar: TWICE!
Gene

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 03:03 PM
and I'm tired of paying up the nose to see the "great" players KW aquired....peope like this guy:[/color]

:ralomar: TWICE!
Gene
Well that made absolutely no sense. Kenny has got some of the biggest steals of this free agent market and if you're talking about the prospects kenny has given up the last few years name 1 that has proven to be a solid player.

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 03:04 PM
You know, I can't remember the last one of those reinsy images with a fake quote below it that was actually funny... :D:

There's a joke in there somewhere about reaping and sowing so ya' know...

Honestly, I understand the people who think you need to slug your way to a pennant, but some of this stuff goes overboard.

How can it have been the wrong power hitter to trade if the other one wouldn't bring you what you wanted in return?

How can it be the wrong power hitter to trade when slugging OF were much easier to obtain this off-season than power hitting 1B? (Giambi put a dent in that market now didn't he? I mean the Yankees had to go get that amazing youn AS stud, Tino Martinez just so they had someone to cover the position).

You trade what the market will take. You sign what the market allows you to afford. You build the best team available under those constraints.

Reinsy sets the payroll (as West so aptly pointed out) KW builds the team.

The Sox have 5 solid starters, a very solid and deep bullpen, more speed and depth and haven't lost so much power that they cannot compete. Even if one can argue that Lee should have stayed (and you can, it just doesn't allow the other moves to get done), Magglio wasn't coming back and the only guy on the market who could actually replace that production is Beltran - who like it or not ain't coming to the Sox, period and actually given his price, it can be argued that is a good thing - if you accept the payroll limitations.

I don't like the payroll limitations. I think JR is a cheap and spiteful bastard, but KW hasn't exactly done a terrible job this off season and he may not even be done yet...

Here's to you KW :cheers: GO SOX!

Here's to you, Gene :whatever: GO SOX!
Voodoo...
I'm touched.
Gene

OEO Magglio
01-08-2005, 03:05 PM
It's not classless. I have no confidence in his leadership of baseball operations...... No different than an investor demanding teh resignation of an exectutive. And YES....I AM AN INVESTOR...my time and money are being wasted while KW and Jr make due with little....
Gene
It's very classless. To demand a gm's resignation when he's up there to answer questions and be a stand up guy to answer real questions from sox fans. Then some guy like you goes up there to demand he resigns from his position is nothing but classless.

Nick@Nite
01-08-2005, 03:08 PM
:tomatoaward

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 03:10 PM
It's very classless. To demand a gm's resignation when he's up there to answer questions and be a stand up guy to answer real questions from sox fans. Then some guy like you goes up there to demand he resigns from his position is nothing but classless.Classless is if I said:
"hey Kenny...stop swing for the fences with bad trades and be a real gm!"

Demanding, or asking, the vice president of baseball operations to resign due to my lack of confidence as "the lifeblood of the organization"(season ticket holder) isnt.
Classlessness would entail insults, mocking, yelling, andother inaproprite beahavior. Nowhere did I say that I would employ any of those tactics.
Gene

voodoochile
01-08-2005, 03:18 PM
Voodoo...
I'm touched.
Gene
We know...:wink:

thezeker
01-08-2005, 03:30 PM
Classless is if I said:
"hey Kenny...stop swing for the fences with bad trades and be a real gm!"

Demanding, or asking, the vice president of baseball operations to resign due to my lack of confidence as "the lifeblood of the organization"(season ticket holder) isnt.
Classlessness would entail insults, mocking, yelling, andother inaproprite beahavior. Nowhere did I say that I would employ any of those tactics.
Gene
Of course you have the right to ask for KW's resignation, and if indeed you are a season ticket holder that solidifies your position.

It is also my right to boo you off the stage and wonder what your underlying problem really is? :angry:

kittle545feet
01-08-2005, 03:37 PM
I have to say that I really like the way this team is coming together. We have same real "gamers" on the club now and I can hardly sit still in anticipation for spring training. However, I do see a few holes that need closing and one of them I see as potentially doing some real damage. That is the situation at 2nd base. Willie sucks! He brings nothing to the table except speed but unfortunately, he can't get on base to showcase the speed. When he does get on base, he usually gets thrown out trying to steal. He cannot go to his right and get a ball up the middle and even if he manages to get it, he doesn't have the arm to get to first. We need to get someone to help and I think Iguchi would be a hell of a fit. To me, that's the biggest problem left. Another smaller problem is the stick of Crede. While I think this guy has a future in gold gloves, his bat needs to come alive. I think Crede is the key to the season. If he hits .280 and 25 HR's with 90 plus RBI's, I would say we have a lock on the division. :wink:

Palehose13
01-08-2005, 04:35 PM
You shouldnt put that in teal. I actually am not that bad. Ask Henry...

Gene
:roflmao:

I'm starting to think that you're his pessimistic twin. Hell, even Henry's been pretty upbeat (for Henry) lately!

ewokpelts
01-08-2005, 04:47 PM
Of course you have the right to ask for KW's resignation, and if indeed you are a season ticket holder that solidifies your position.

It is also my right to boo you off the stage and wonder what your underlying problem really is? :angry:fair enough
Gene

zach074
01-08-2005, 09:34 PM
no.....we got the yankees, a's, and giants leftovers....and traded away the wrong power hitter......
Gene
Those leftovers are the best thing we have had in years, and the thing that gives us a great chance to make the playoffs! I guess some people can never be happy.

joepoe
01-11-2005, 02:34 PM
... at this year's Sox Fest?

Granted, the boisterous and unsatisfied responses aimed at the Sox GM from us Sox fans were very warranted in the past, however this offseason seems to much more productive than those in the recent past.

Hell, we even got green seats coming. Watchagonnabitchaboutthisyear?
How about no yelling or disruptions? If you have something to say go to the mike. Last year was like a mob scene with all the drunk geniuses heckling. Whether they had a good point or not, how about a little decorum.

anewman35
01-11-2005, 02:46 PM
AJ was released.....el duque is old(how old...depends on which birth certificate you look at), and dye is injury riddled.....
Gene
You might have said it and I might have missed it, but, if not - if you were KW and JR, how much money would you have spent, and what moves would you have made this off season?

Tekijawa
01-11-2005, 03:25 PM
Please o please let someone get up yet again this year and ask why none of the naming rights money has gone to pick up a big name Free Agent!!!

jabrch
01-11-2005, 03:44 PM
Willie sucks! He brings nothing to the table except speed but unfortunately, he can't get on base to showcase the speed.
He did have a .343 obp last season when he played. Just for the record, that would qualify him as middle of the AL pack this year ahead of guys like Boone, Soriano, Hudson and Uribe...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byposition?pos=2B&sort=23&qualified=1&conference=AL&year=season_2004


I'm not saying he's a top 5 guy. But if he's our biggest problem, compared to prior years, I am comfortable.

ewokpelts
01-11-2005, 05:30 PM
Those leftovers are the best thing we have had in years, and the thing that gives us a great chance to make the playoffs! I guess some people can never be happy.i'll be happy with WORLD SERIES WIN.
Gene

ewokpelts
01-11-2005, 05:32 PM
You might have said it and I might have missed it, but, if not - if you were KW and JR, how much money would you have spent, and what moves would you have made this off season?75 million minimum...dump the joes......go after glaus(who has defense AND offense)...and move garland , while finding a no. 5 pitcher...i would have gone after clement to be my no. 3.
Gene

OEO Magglio
01-11-2005, 05:34 PM
75 million minimum...dump the joes......go after glaus(who has defense AND offense)...and move garland , while finding a no. 5 pitcher...i would have gone after clement to be my no. 3.
Gene
Well those moves would cost you a minimum of 85 million.

MRKARNO
01-11-2005, 05:40 PM
Still won't stop the negative threads here.

Even I'm excited about this team and I am a known KW-basher.


Bob
The fact that a vocal pessimist such as you is excited about this team demonstrates the good job Kenny Williams has done this offseason at addressing the problems we had and quieting the critics.

Mickster
01-11-2005, 05:42 PM
75 million minimum...dump the joes......go after glaus(who has defense AND offense)...and move garland , while finding a no. 5 pitcher...i would have gone after clement to be my no. 3.
Gene
Can Glaus even throw the ball across the diamond? [no, this is not teal]

If anyone stands up and asks a stupid question about keeping Magglio or makes a stupid remark, I will then take it upon myself to fire away. I can be a real ass-of-a-heckler if I want to be.... Should be fun. :gulp:

MRKARNO
01-11-2005, 05:45 PM
This year is really the test of what shall be now known as Kennyball. The roster is more than half different from the end of 2003 and very few players on this team predate the Kenny WIlliams era at this point.

Brian26
01-11-2005, 05:47 PM
Can Glaus even throw the ball across the diamond? [no, this is not teal]

If anyone stands up and asks a stupid question about keeping Magglio or makes a stupid remark, I will then take it upon myself to fire away. I can be a real ass-of-a-heckler if I want to be.... Should be fun. :gulp:
There was a rumor that they were going to try to move Glaus over to first due to his arm and shoulder.

If any lame Score-type callers start whining, PLEASE start heckling. You have my endorsement.

Mickster
01-11-2005, 05:55 PM
If any lame Score-type callers start whining, PLEASE start heckling. You have my endorsement.
:gulp:

gosox41
01-12-2005, 08:04 AM
How about no yelling or disruptions? If you have something to say go to the mike. Last year was like a mob scene with all the drunk geniuses heckling. Whether they had a good point or not, how about a little decorum.
Is KW still doing a Q&A session? I didn't see it on the schedule for Friday.


Bob

gosox41
01-12-2005, 08:10 AM
The fact that a vocal pessimist such as you is excited about this team demonstrates the good job Kenny Williams has done this offseason at addressing the problems we had and quieting the critics.
But it's time for this team to do some damage. I'm getting sick of excuses. I've been waiting for 4 years and have nothing to show for it. So while I like his moves, there is still some risk. For example, will El Duque be healthy all year? Will the 2003 or 2004 Pods show up?

Hopefuly there won't be any freak injuries this year.

But this team has got to take out the Twins because if not that would mean that KW has 5 years of mediocrity under his belt.

And I will say this right now, anything short of winning it all is not going to make my happy when KW dumps Frank after this season. So I can easily be persuaded to jump off the KW bandwagon.

But I am excited if for the only reason that there's 5 starters and they broke up all the power hitters.


Bob

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 09:27 AM
Technicall AJ was released. He was going to be non-tendered but his agent talked them into releasing him to get started on the negotiations earlier.

Brian Sabean decided Mike Matheny has the secret recipe to Coca Cola or something like that. Seriously, Sabean pulled a "we need Royce Clayton" move, deciding that he didn't care if his catcher was a wretched hitter, he needed unmeasurable intangibles behind the plate and who has more unmeasurable intangibles than the catcher on the pennant-winning team? The fact that the Cardinals won the league by beating the twine out of the baseball with Pujols, Edmonds, Renteria, Walker, etc., didn't seem to matter.

So, once you have, for whatever reason, committed to Mike Matheny, who do you keep as your backup, a grumpy hypercompetitive Carmine or Torrealba?

Further, AJ kicked Sabean's can in arbitration last season. Arb hearings often lead to ill feelings. I don't know Sabean, of course, but maybe he planted the "cancer" rumors as payback for being flayed in arbitration?
Another reason Sabean makes some questionable signings is the Giants owner counts signing bonuses of draft picks into the current year's payroll. To maximize the payroll for the current team, Sabean signs a lot of mid tier free agents with the bonus of giving up high picks to other teams as free agency compentsation.

anewman35
01-12-2005, 09:32 AM
75 million minimum...dump the joes......go after glaus(who has defense AND offense)...and move garland , while finding a no. 5 pitcher...i would have gone after clement to be my no. 3.
Gene
KW did go after Clement. Would you have beat Boston's offer? What if it had taken a few million more than that to get him here (which seems likely, since Boston had other things going for it). Glaus signed to a four-year, $45 million contract. You really think he's worth over $11 million a year? And would you have not signed Dye, A.J., El Duque or Hermanson? If not, how do you fill those holes?

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 09:34 AM
He did have a .343 obp last season when he played. Just for the record, that would qualify him as middle of the AL pack this year ahead of guys like Boone, Soriano, Hudson and Uribe...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byposition?pos=2B&sort=23&qualified=1&conference=AL&year=season_2004


I'm not saying he's a top 5 guy. But if he's our biggest problem, compared to prior years, I am comfortable.
I am scared I might be losing my mind since I agree with jabrch, but he is right. While you could have upgraded there this offseason it wouldn't have been worth the opportunity cost.

jabrch
01-12-2005, 09:40 AM
I am scared I might be losing my mind since I agree with jabrch, but he is right. While you could have upgraded there this offseason it wouldn't have been worth the opportunity cost.
A broken clock is right twice a day...unless of course it is digital. :)

Brian26
01-12-2005, 09:47 AM
A broken clock is right twice a day
And even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. :D:

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 09:48 AM
KW did go after Clement. Would you have beat Boston's offer? What if it had taken a few million more than that to get him here (which seems likely, since Boston had other things going for it). Glaus signed to a four-year, $45 million contract. You really think he's worth over $11 million a year? And would you have not signed Dye, A.J., El Duque or Hermanson? If not, how do you fill those holes?
The worst move Kenny made last year was re-trading for Crazy Carl. It forced this years team to take on a four million dollar bench player who doesn't have any upside. If Kenny doesn't trade for Carl last year, he could have signed AJ and El Duque without trading Carlos or could have used the extra money to get a Perez, Clement or someone else. I don't believe in giving Kenny any leeway for operating under a budget since he hasn't maximize the value from the dollars spent. GMs with less money and resources and have done more with their limited resources, Oakland, Fla as two prime examples.

jabrch
01-12-2005, 09:55 AM
GMs with less money and resources and have done more with their limited resources, Oakland, Fla as two prime examples.
Let's see how Oakland does now that they no longer have 3 Cy Young calibre pitchers signed to pre-arbitration, significant value saving deals... I think BB is looking at a near .500 club this year. Florida is also starting to have to pay money for its pitching staff. I don't either of those are great comparisons to this Sox team Dawg - which didn't have the benefit of coming in with more than 1 pitcher signed to any sort of pre-FA/Arbitration deal.

Minnesota...now there's a better example. But Ryan is, IMHO, bar none, the best GM in the game. He regularly does more with less than anyone out there - and he doesn't just rely on having locked down amazing talent - he constantly brings in players (pitchers and hitters) that make his team better.

I agree with you that the Everett deal handcuffed KW a bit. But let's back up to that point in time. We were hoping to make a playoff push - and had injuries that almost necesitated a move. It was an aggressive move for 2004 that has negative ramifications to 2005. Had Everett contributed to a playoff push, this wouldn't be such an issue. Hindsight enables us to know better, but at least when KW made the move it wasn't that terrible a move... It was debateable - I'll go that far.

anewman35
01-12-2005, 10:00 AM
The worst move Kenny made last year was re-trading for Crazy Carl. It forced this years team to take on a four million dollar bench player who doesn't have any upside. If Kenny doesn't trade for Carl last year, he could have signed AJ and El Duque without trading Carlos or could have used the extra money to get a Perez, Clement or someone else.
At the time, trading for Crazy Carl looked like it might be important, though - if things had turned out differently, and we hadn't lost both Frank AND Mags, and if Carl had been able to bounce back a little more (I know, I know, both big ifs, but they were reasonable expectations at the time) it could have meant competing for the division title.

Besides, while I liked Carlos fine, I'm looking forward to having Podsednik. Even if you don't think he makes the team better, he certianly makes the team different, and after having this team for 4 years, I'm ready for different.

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 10:05 AM
I agree with you that the Everett deal handcuffed KW a bit. But let's back up to that point in time. We were hoping to make a playoff push - and had injuries that almost necesitated a move. It was an aggressive move for 2004 that has negative ramifications to 2005. Had Everett contributed to a playoff push, this wouldn't be such an issue. Hindsight enables us to know better, but at least when KW made the move it wasn't that terrible a move... It was debateable - I'll go that far.
This is IMO the key point in the Carl deal, and it seems to be oft overlooked. At the time of the trade, the Sox were in first (IIRC), expecting to get Maggs back in 2-4 weeks, and desperately looking for some offensive help for the short term as well as a potential replacement for Frank for the season. The options were pretty much to do nothing/pack it in, or trade for Carl knowing that you were taking on the '05 $$$. There wasn't a lot more available (and IIRC, there weren't any other hitters with any potential traded last year without significantly greater $$$ being taken on). If you can think of any alternatives, I'd love to hear what they were.

So while it was obviously a detriment to this year's team, the only practical alternative was to throw up your hands and rely on the unholy trinity of Timo/Borchard/Gload.

Note: If you subscribe to the conspiracy theory that KW knew all along that Frank & Maggs were out for the year when he made the trade, let me know when the aliens come back to the grassy knoll and return Jimmy Hoffa's body.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 10:12 AM
Let's see how Oakland does now that they no longer have 3 Cy Young calibre pitchers signed to pre-arbitration, significant value saving deals... I think BB is looking at a near .500 club this year. Florida is also starting to have to pay money for its pitching staff. I don't either of those are great comparisons to this Sox team Dawg - which didn't have the benefit of coming in with more than 1 pitcher signed to any sort of pre-FA/Arbitration deal.

Minnesota...now there's a better example. But Ryan is, IMHO, bar none, the best GM in the game. He regularly does more with less than anyone out there - and he doesn't just rely on having locked down amazing talent - he constantly brings in players (pitchers and hitters) that make his team better.

I agree with you that the Everett deal handcuffed KW a bit. But let's back up to that point in time. We were hoping to make a playoff push - and had injuries that almost necesitated a move. It was an aggressive move for 2004 that has negative ramifications to 2005. Had Everett contributed to a playoff push, this wouldn't be such an issue. Hindsight enables us to know better, but at least when KW made the move it wasn't that terrible a move... It was debateable - I'll go that far.
When Mags and Frank went down, we were done. I know it is anti-competitive but instead of making bad moves which will hurt the team down the road, he should of held serve and let the kids play out the season last year.

As for the A's, Marlins and Twins, the secret to their success has been combing young players and cheap castoffs. How times have Twins had a player hitting arbitration only to non tender them or trade them away for more young prospects? They don't trade minor leaguers instead they trade guys who are making the big money. Also I wouldn't move Ryan to top GM in baseball, sometimes he moves a bit too slow on changing over his roster.

The economic system of baseball causes teams to lose players in their first seven years. Yes the Marlins are running into problems with their pitching staff about to make a lot of money, but the key for long term success is to have young pitchers ready to step in. Hell, even if the Marlins don't, they already won a ring with cheap talent that more then any other team can say. The A's trades are also a product of this situation, as they were made not for this season for 2006 season. Also last year the A's best pitcher was Harden.

As for Kenny, he has made some good moves in picking up cheap castoffs, but the minors haven't produce much. Which we hold responsible for since he was in charge of the draft when Schuler was the GM. Also Kenny has hampered the team in making some terrible trades.

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 10:16 AM
When Mags and Frank went down, we were done. I know it is anti-competitive but instead of making bad moves which will hurt the team down the road, he should of held serve and let the kids play out the season last year.

.DD77 - remember, Maggs was back from a minor knee injury when the deal was made (it was considered minor at the time). Carl came on board 7/18, Maggs was supposedly rounding into shape, and actually played a couple more games before going out on 7/22.

So unless you think that KW knew Maggs was going out again, the season was far from over. The question was "Do we replace Frank with Timo/Borchard/Gload or do we take a shot at a better hitter, who's also a switch hitter, at the expense of the 2005 salary?".

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 10:23 AM
75 million minimum...dump the joes......go after glaus(who has defense AND offense)...and move garland , while finding a no. 5 pitcher...i would have gone after clement to be my no. 3.
Gene
OK, so first you do something that's out of KW's control (increase payroll), then you proceed to take a team that was at 63mil in contracts for 2005, and add in Glaus ($11mil) and Clement ($8mil). At least you dumped the salaries of Crede & Borchard (maybe a combined $1mil?). And you may not even have someone who can play 3d. Unless you plan to shift Uribe there and maybe play Glaus at SS?

Payroll's now over $80mil. And you want to move a guy (Garland) who by pretty much any measure is a decent #3 or a great #4 so that you can pick up a no.5.

:?:

jabrch
01-12-2005, 10:23 AM
When Mags and Frank went down, we were done. I know it is anti-competitive but instead of making bad moves which will hurt the team down the road, he should of held serve and let the kids play out the season last year.
I disagree - but I can see your perspective. I liked the move at the time, as long as I was able to disregard Carl's 05 contract issues. Had we held on and won the division, it would have paid off.


The A's trades are also a product of this situation, as they were made not for this season for 2006 season. Also last year the A's best pitcher was Harden.


Well - they don't look very good for 2006 either. You are talking about a team with no impact players on offense and no pitchers who have thrown over 200 innings except Zito - who was...well... pedestrian last year As far as Harden goes, he only went 190 innings. I'm not sold that Rich Harden is going to be able to be a #1 and pitch 225 innings going forward. They might be able to replace some of Mulder or Hudson's innings, but not most of them. And that's without even discussing how deep Blanton, Haren, Meyer, etc. can go into games/seasosns.

Mickster
01-12-2005, 10:23 AM
:hijacked:

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 10:27 AM
Well - they don't look very good for 2006 either. You are talking about a team with no impact players on offense and no pitchers who have thrown over 200 innings except Zito - who was...well... pedestrian last year As far as Harden goes, he only went 190 innings. I'm not sold that Rich Harden is going to be able to be a #1 and pitch 225 innings going forward. They might be able to replace some of Mulder or Hudson's innings, but not most of them. And that's without even discussing how deep Blanton, Haren, Meyer, etc. can go into games/seasosns.
So the A's took on a large salary (Kendall) who's under contract through 2007, and built their team to MAYBE be able to contend in 2007 (if all the pitchers pan out)? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and it actually goes against your "economic system of baseball".

Palehose13
01-12-2005, 10:32 AM
You da man, Kenny!


:D:

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 10:34 AM
I disagree - but I can see your perspective. I liked the move at the time, as long as I was able to disregard Carl's 05 contract issues. Had we held on and won the division, it would have paid off.



Well - they don't look very good for 2006 either. You are talking about a team with no impact players on offense and no pitchers who have thrown over 200 innings except Zito - who was...well... pedestrian last year As far as Harden goes, he only went 190 innings. I'm not sold that Rich Harden is going to be able to be a #1 and pitch 225 innings going forward. They might be able to replace some of Mulder or Hudson's innings, but not most of them. And that's without even discussing how deep Blanton, Haren, Meyer, etc. can go into games/seasosns.
Notice how the A's have change their pitching philosophy in order to competsate for young pitchers who may not be able to pitch as long in game, have improved the bullpen. The A's relied on their starters to get to the closer with some help in between, like Braford. With Cruz, Clare, Street and Do tel, you will get some hard throwing high strike out guys who should be able to take it from the seven inning on. Bradford and Duchesses should be able to eat up innings with good production.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 10:41 AM
DD77 - remember, Maggs was back from a minor knee injury when the deal was made (it was considered minor at the time). Carl came on board 7/18, Maggs was supposedly rounding into shape, and actually played a couple more games before going out on 7/22.

So unless you think that KW knew Maggs was going out again, the season was far from over. The question was "Do we replace Frank with Timo/Borchard/Gload or do we take a shot at a better hitter, who's also a switch hitter, at the expense of the 2005 salary?".
I had the dates mixed up Mag went down with the injury on July 21, playing since the 9th with the trade being made on July 18th. Still Everett was coming off an injury, and he couldn't replace Thomas production.

Also Borchard was brought up and started playing on July 10th so not much time to evaluate him. While he didn't amount to anything, I would have let him and Gload play. Other then a little power, with Gload hitting .278/.352/.405 at the time of the trade, you weren't going to add much production with Everett.

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 10:41 AM
Notice how the A's have change their pitching philosophy in order to competsate for young pitchers who may not be able to pitch as long in game, have improved the bullpen. The A's relied on their starters to get to the closer with some help in between, like Braford. With Cruz, Clare, Street and Do tel, you will get some hard throwing high strike out guys who should be able to take it from the seven inning on. Bradford and Duchesses should be able to eat up innings with good production.
By the way - DD77, doesn't KW get props for correctly gauging the market for good pitching and signing guys to below market deals (Garcia, Buehrle)? Heck, even Contreras at $6mil can be argued as a decent signing given that Derek Lowe's getting $8mil.

Or does that only count if BB does it?

(j/k on that last one, but I couldn't resist. I know you're not as irrational a Beane-backer as some!)

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 10:43 AM
I had the dates mixed up Mag went down with the injury on July 21, playing since the 9th with the trade being made on July 18th. Still Everett was coming off an injury, and couldn't replace Thomas production. Borchard was brought up and started playing on July 10th. While he didn't amount to anything, I would have let him and Gload play. Other then a little power, with Gload hitting .278/.352/.405 you weren't going to add much with Everett.
Wasn't the point that Everett was coming off of an injury, so you could reasonably expect him to hit better then he had to date in 2004? He was supposedly recovered at the time of the trade.

And I'll stand by Carl being a better option at the time than the unproven career minor leaguer Gload. I like Ross as a bench bat, and he proved more over the rest of the season, but I sure wouldn't have wanted to be relying on him as of July to be my regular DH. Not if I had aspirations of being a playoff team.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 10:46 AM
By the way - DD77, doesn't KW get props for correctly gauging the market for good pitching and signing guys to below market deals (Garcia, Buehrle)? Heck, even Contreras at $6mil can be argued as a decent signing given that Derek Lowe's getting $8mil.

Or does that only count if BB does it?

(j/k on that last one, but I couldn't resist. I know you're not as irrational a Beane-backer as some!)
Well, I guess so. When taken into account the previous couple of years, this market went way off the course. I think we have to thank Boston for this. If they hadn't beaten Yankees and won the Series, then the Yankees wouldn't have made a couple of bad deals to push the market skyward.

jabrch
01-12-2005, 10:48 AM
Notice how the A's have change their pitching philosophy in order to competsate for young pitchers who may not be able to pitch as long in game, have improved the bullpen. The A's relied on their starters to get to the closer with some help in between, like Braford. With Cruz, Clare, Street and Do tel, you will get some hard throwing high strike out guys who should be able to take it from the seven inning on. Bradford and Duchesses should be able to eat up innings with good production.
Um...

I am completely unimpressed with that bullpen. Dotel and Bradford are not good. Street is not ready - everything I have read indicates he isn't going to start the season with the big club. I've seen too much of Cruz sucking in his career. Calero is the best of that bunch.

I don't see how you can possibly make the arguement that that pen will pick up the difference between what they lose in Hudson, Mulder and Redman to go to Blanton, Meyer and Haren - who have nearly no combined MLB starts amongst them and still improve what was a disaster of a pen last year. The starting rotation might lose over 100 innings from last year between Mulder, Hudson and Redman.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 10:48 AM
Wasn't the point that Everett was coming off of an injury, so you could reasonably expect him to hit better then he had to date in 2004? He was supposedly recovered at the time of the trade.

And I'll stand by Carl being a better option at the time than the unproven career minor leaguer Gload. I like Ross as a bench bat, and he proved more over the rest of the season, but I sure wouldn't have wanted to be relying on him as of July to be my regular DH. Not if I had aspirations of being a playoff team.
I just don't see a players like Everett as someone who can push you over the top. They aren't that good.

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 10:57 AM
I just don't see a players like Everett as someone who can push you over the top. They aren't that good.
I view it more as turning a sucking black hole into something approaching league average and something that could actually be a positive given Carl's performance in 2003. Unfortunately, there weren't a lot of other options for that.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 10:58 AM
Um...

I am completely unimpressed with that bullpen. Dotel and Bradford are not good. Street is not ready - everything I have read indicates he isn't going to start the season with the big club. I've seen too much of Cruz sucking in his career. Calero is the best of that bunch.

I don't see how you can possibly make the arguement that that pen will pick up the difference between what they lose in Hudson, Mulder and Redman to go to Blanton, Meyer and Haren - who have nearly no combined MLB starts amongst them and still improve what was a disaster of a pen last year. The starting rotation might lose over 100 innings from last year between Mulder, Hudson and Redman.
I really disagree with the statement that Dotel isn't good. He had a down year last year and posted 3.69 ERA while an average pitcher in same conditions would have posted 4.53. His ERA+, 100 is AVG, 2001 171, 2002 231, 2003 278 and last year 138. While not a Rivera, well who is, he can produce at the level of one of top relief pitchers in baseball. I would put him in the top ten relief pitchers playing in the game right now.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 11:00 AM
I view it more as turning a sucking black hole into something approaching league average and something that could actually be a positive given Carl's performance in 2003. Unfortunately, there weren't a lot of other options for that.
But it wasn't a sucking black hole. It was place we the Sox were getting good production from Gload, who could have taken that role over.

jabrch
01-12-2005, 11:06 AM
I really disagree with the statement that Dotel isn't good. He had a down year last year and posted 3.69 ERA while an average pitcher in same conditions would have posted 4.53. His ERA+, 100 is AVG, 2001 171, 2002 231, 2003 278 and last year 138. While not a Rivera, well who is, he can produce at the level of one of top relief pitchers in baseball. I would put him in the top ten relief pitchers playing in the game right now.
A closer with a 4+ ERA in his 45 games with Oakland... If Kenny got a guy like that people would tear him apart. How bout his trends... Every number has trended worse since coming to the bigs.

There is a reason that all the talk in Oakland now is about Beane SHOPPING Dotel. He's due arbitration this year. Beane knows he's a stiff. Someone in need of a closer is going to regret acquiring him the same way Oakland regrets having done it last year.

I am so horrendously unimpressed by Dotel if the concept is that this is going to be one of the keys to replacing the 100+ VERY HIGH QUALITY innings that they are going to lose from the rotation.

And I haven't yet mentioned one word about how questionable Haren/Blanton/Meyer are...

jabrch
01-12-2005, 11:07 AM
But it wasn't a sucking black hole. It was place we the Sox were getting good production from Gload, who could have taken that role over.
If this team stuck with Gload, KW would have been crucified for not going out and making a move.

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 11:09 AM
But it wasn't a sucking black hole. It was place we the Sox were getting good production from Gload, who could have taken that role over.
Through April-May-June, Gload had all of 93ABs, with an OPS around .750. At DH, that would qualify as a black hole to me. That's decent middle IF #s, not DH #s.

Ross went on to improve, which is a credit to him. But a career minor leaguer, with those stats would not be the guy I'd be counting on to maintain my offense. I'd be taking a shot at a guy who the year prior, had posted an OPS of .876, and who if healthy, could post a .900+OPS.

jabrch
01-12-2005, 11:19 AM
Through April-May-June, Gload had all of 93ABs, with an OPS around .750. At DH, that would qualify as a black hole to me. That's decent middle IF #s, not DH #s.

Ross went on to improve, which is a credit to him. But a career minor leaguer, with those stats would not be the guy I'd be counting on to maintain my offense. I'd be taking a shot at a guy who the year prior, had posted an OPS of .876, and who if healthy, could post a .900+OPS.
I'd also rather have a veteran switch hitter than an unproven rookie...

Had KW not made a move - peopole would have been up in arms. He made a move (and gave up virtually no talent to do it, only took on the 4mm in 2005 money) that at the time wasn't a bad move.

Ya know what - given that Frank isn't necesarily going to be back any time soon, I'm kinda glad we have Carl around to start the season in the lineup. I wish it wasn't at a 4mm pricetag - but I'd rather that then being stuck with only Gload/Timo/Borchard as our options.

Palehose13
01-12-2005, 11:22 AM
Ya know what - given that Frank isn't necesarily going to be back any time soon, I'm kinda glad we have Carl around to start the season in the lineup. I wish it wasn't at a 4mm pricetag - but I'd rather that then being stuck with only Gload/Timo/Borchard as our options.
I agree. I like that the Sox have Carl around as insurance.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 11:34 AM
A closer with a 4+ ERA in his 45 games with Oakland... If Kenny got a guy like that people would tear him apart. How bout his trends... Every number has trended worse since coming to the bigs.

There is a reason that all the talk in Oakland now is about Beane SHOPPING Dotel. He's due arbitration this year. Beane knows he's a stiff. Someone in need of a closer is going to regret acquiring him the same way Oakland regrets having done it last year.

I am so horrendously unimpressed by Dotel if the concept is that this is going to be one of the keys to replacing the 100+ VERY HIGH QUALITY innings that they are going to lose from the rotation.

And I haven't yet mentioned one word about how questionable Haren/Blanton/Meyer are...
The young guys are questionable because they have no real track record. I think they should do ok, but you have to see what happens. Not much of a debate there.

I am not sure what number you have seen from Dotel which has gone since he started with the Mets. Like I said last year was a down year for him, players esp relief pitchers have down years. I expect him to equal his 2003 production in Oakland this year.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 11:39 AM
I'd also rather have a veteran switch hitter than an unproven rookie...

Had KW not made a move - peopole would have been up in arms. He made a move (and gave up virtually no talent to do it, only took on the 4mm in 2005 money) that at the time wasn't a bad move.

Ya know what - given that Frank isn't necesarily going to be back any time soon, I'm kinda glad we have Carl around to start the season in the lineup. I wish it wasn't at a 4mm pricetag - but I'd rather that then being stuck with only Gload/Timo/Borchard as our options. Why? Why is a veteran better then rookie? If the rookie can play, you need to play him. Remember without Cabera the Marlins never win the World Series. The option wasn't to get Beltran over a rookie but getting a player who ranges from good to average over a rookie who you think will be a good player. I would go with the rookie every single time esp if I am running a team on tight budget.

I wouldn't have brought Timo back but would have tried to get stop gap for a two months, and then brought up one of the young OF in our system in late May.

This is the biggest problem Kenny has, he is using a big market strategy to win when he have a mid revenue team. He needs to adjust his strategy for the organization to succeed or we will always have some glaring hole that prevents the team from winning the central.

voodoochile
01-12-2005, 11:51 AM
I agree. I like that the Sox have Carl around as insurance.
That's insurance not just for Frank, but in case any of the corner OF's get injured or fail to live up to expectations (something that is certainly possible). If Rowand or Pods fail to perform up to necessary levels, it is nice to know that Everett can fill in in LF and put up solid offensive numbers.

voodoochile
01-12-2005, 11:54 AM
The young guys are questionable because they have no real track record. I think they should do ok, but you have to see what happens. Not much of a debate there.

I am not sure what number you have seen from Dotel which has gone since he started with the Mets. Like I said last year was a down year for him, players esp relief pitchers have down years. I expect him to equal his 2003 production in Oakland this year.
I would like to see Dote's ERA+ numers compared to other relievers and not to the league as a whole. Good relievers tend to have better ERA's than any but the very elite starters. 3.69 ERA is solid but unspectacular for a closer and looks more like a setup man to me.

ewokpelts
01-12-2005, 11:54 AM
KW did go after Clement. Would you have beat Boston's offer? What if it had taken a few million more than that to get him here (which seems likely, since Boston had other things going for it). Glaus signed to a four-year, $45 million contract. You really think he's worth over $11 million a year? And would you have not signed Dye, A.J., El Duque or Hermanson? If not, how do you fill those holes?Well,
I think Clement is worth 10+ a year. I would have signed glaus as first baseman, while dumping Konerko(I'd keep Clee in left). I would have taken peanuts for Everett. As for el duque, If i signed clement, this would be my rotation:
Burly Mon
Garcia
Clement
Contreras
Garland



Gene

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 11:54 AM
Why? Why is a veteran better then rookie? If the rookie can play, you need to play him. Remember without Cabera the Marlins never win the World Series. The option wasn't to get Beltran over a rookie but getting a player who ranges from good to average over a rookie who you think will be a good player. I would go with the rookie every single time esp if I am running a team on tight budget.


We may have to agree to disagree here, but I think a rookie who's posted solid but unspectacular .850OPSs in the minors, who's posted a .750OPS in limited ABs with the team so far, is not someone that a playoff team relies on. This isn't a Cabrera who dominated in the minors.

A veteran coming off of injury, who pushed a .900OPS the prior year seems like a lot better bet. At the expense of a $4mil commitment for 2005, that seems like a pretty good risk to me, and IMO one that needs taking if the alternative is the rookie with the stats noted above.

When a team like the Sox has a shot at the playoffs, and the "risk" is adding $4mil to the 2005playoffs or you likely significantly reduce your chances? IMO that's a no-brainer. In hindsight, obviously you don't make the move, but givne the info available at the time - there's not much debate about it to me.

Mickster
01-12-2005, 12:23 PM
Well,
I think Clement is worth 10+ a year. I would have signed glaus as first baseman, while dumping Konerko(I'd keep Clee in left). I would have taken peanuts for Everett. As for el duque, If i signed clement, this would be my rotation:
Burly Mon
Garcia
Clement
Contreras
Garland



Gene
So you'd keep CLee and gotten Glaus at 1B. Let's see.....

Payroll prior to CLee trade is 68M, subtract 8.5 for Paulie, Add 11 for Glaus, Subtract Everett (if you could) at 4M, add Clement at 10+ Million....

If my calculations are correct, you'd have a 77M payroll. You wouldn't have addressed the bullpen, wouldn't have been able to get AJ, and quite frankly, would replace an 8.5M first baseman w/ a 11M first baseman with questionable health. Ummmm....No.

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 12:32 PM
Well,
I think Clement is worth 10+ a year. I would have signed glaus as first baseman, while dumping Konerko(I'd keep Clee in left). I would have taken peanuts for Everett. As for el duque, If i signed clement, this would be my rotation:
Burly Mon
Garcia
Clement
Contreras
Garland



GeneYour team now has a payroll a shade under $80mil (depending on whether or not you can trade Koney/Everett without picking up any of their salaries).

It also starts Timo/Gload in RF since you dumped Borchard and didn't replace him with anyone.

If Frank doesn't start the season healthy, you get to start BOTH Timo & Gload. Hooray!

It also has a hole at 3B or SS since you dumped Crede without a replacement (Uribe plays one of the positions).

And let's not forget the bullpen still features Adkins/Cotts/PTBNL since you didn't get anyone there. And you're already over your budget of "at least $75mil", so there isn't much hope for getting additional reinforcements.

But hey - at least you added about $10mil to the season-ending payroll! Here's hoping that Glaus can play more than 100games or that team will easily lose 100.

anewman35
01-12-2005, 12:43 PM
When a team like the Sox has a shot at the playoffs, and the "risk" is adding $4mil to the 2005playoffs or you likely significantly reduce your chances? IMO that's a no-brainer. In hindsight, obviously you don't make the move, but givne the info available at the time - there's not much debate about it to me.
It's really funny to me how people are complaining about this now. The arguement is always that the Sox don't try to win, they're too cheap and stupid. So they try to win and do something that ISN'T cheap, and still get called stupid. You can't have it both ways.

Mickster
01-12-2005, 12:48 PM
It's really funny to me how people are complaining about this now. The arguement is always that the Sox don't try to win, they're too cheap and stupid. So they try to win and do something that ISN'T cheap, and still get called stupid. You can't have it both ways.
Sure they can! :redneck

voodoochile
01-12-2005, 01:02 PM
It's really funny to me how people are complaining about this now. The arguement is always that the Sox don't try to win, they're too cheap and stupid. So they try to win and do something that ISN'T cheap, and still get called stupid. You can't have it both ways.
Not that I agree with the person who posted that - I still like having Everett on the team - but it is possible to be BOTH not-cheap AND not-stupid. It doesn have to be either or... :tongue:

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 01:11 PM
We may have to agree to disagree here, but I think a rookie who's posted solid but unspectacular .850OPSs in the minors, who's posted a .750OPS in limited ABs with the team so far, is not someone that a playoff team relies on. This isn't a Cabrera who dominated in the minors.

A veteran coming off of injury, who pushed a .900OPS the prior year seems like a lot better bet. At the expense of a $4mil commitment for 2005, that seems like a pretty good risk to me, and IMO one that needs taking if the alternative is the rookie with the stats noted above.

When a team like the Sox has a shot at the playoffs, and the "risk" is adding $4mil to the 2005playoffs or you likely significantly reduce your chances? IMO that's a no-brainer. In hindsight, obviously you don't make the move, but givne the info available at the time - there's not much debate about it to me.
You forget about Carl posting an OPS of .761 in 2001, .772 in 2002 and .697 while he was with the Expos in 2004. When you look at those with his 2003 numbers, which one looks out of place? Evaulating Carl as a player who would likely put up a .900 OPS over the final course of the season, was a mistake. Thinking he would be a guy who would put up OPS in the range of .700 - .800 would be more correct.

anewman35
01-12-2005, 01:15 PM
Not that I agree with the person who posted that - I still like having Everett on the team - but it is possible to be BOTH not-cheap AND not-stupid. It doesn have to be either or... :tongue:
Well, yes. I meant (as you probably realize) that you can't bitch bitch bitch when the team doesn't spend, and then bitch bitch bitch when they do. Doesn't stop people from trying, though.

Dadawg_77
01-12-2005, 01:24 PM
It's really funny to me how people are complaining about this now. The arguement is always that the Sox don't try to win, they're too cheap and stupid. So they try to win and do something that ISN'T cheap, and still get called stupid. You can't have it both ways.


It isnít about being cheap or not being cheap. It is about being smart. There have been plenty of teams who have went hog wild in the free agency market only to produce sub 500 teams, while there are teams who have pitched their pennies and won divisions.

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 01:25 PM
You forget about Carl posting an OPS of .761 in 2001, .772 in 2002 and .697 while he was with the Expos in 2004. When you look at those with his 2003 numbers, which one looks out of place? Evaulating Carl as a player who would likely put up a .900 OPS over the final course of the season, was a mistake. Thinking he would be a guy who would put up OPS in the range of .700 - .800 would be more correct.
He also played in about 100 games in those 2 years, which I would interpret to mean that he was injured. The prior 2 years, when he played 120+games, he was .950+in OPS. He played 147 games in 2003 and again, posted a very good OPS.

Regardless, the options being Gload and his 91AB / .750OPS without great minor league #s, or Carl who would reasonably be expected to put up those #s on the low end if healthy, I'll take Carl, even with the $4mil 05 option.

bhayes520
01-12-2005, 01:44 PM
White Sox Training Academy Clinicshttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gifhttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gifhttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gifhttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gif10:45-11:30Fielding with Tim Raineshttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gifhttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gif-Seminars on Sun.12:00-12:45Hitting with Paul Konerkohttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gifhttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gif1:00-1:45Fastpitch Softball Skills with the Chicago Banditshttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gifhttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/trans.gif2:00-2:45Pitching with Neal Cotts

Betcha that last one draws a crowd....

ewokpelts
01-12-2005, 04:12 PM
Your team now has a payroll a shade under $80mil (depending on whether or not you can trade Koney/Everett without picking up any of their salaries).

It also starts Timo/Gload in RF since you dumped Borchard and didn't replace him with anyone.

If Frank doesn't start the season healthy, you get to start BOTH Timo & Gload. Hooray!

It also has a hole at 3B or SS since you dumped Crede without a replacement (Uribe plays one of the positions).

And let's not forget the bullpen still features Adkins/Cotts/PTBNL since you didn't get anyone there. And you're already over your budget of "at least $75mil", so there isn't much hope for getting additional reinforcements.

But hey - at least you added about $10mil to the season-ending payroll! Here's hoping that Glaus can play more than 100games or that team will easily lose 100.well...it's better than clipping coupons like kenny has....i said i'd spend 75 MINIMUM......not max......big difference....liek i've said before....i'm sick of paying world champion prices, and getting pee wee league results....
Gene

Flight #24
01-12-2005, 04:16 PM
well...it's better than clipping coupons like kenny has....i said i'd spend 75 MINIMUM......not max......big difference....liek i've said before....i'm sick of paying world champion prices, and getting pee wee league results....
Gene
The problem is that Kenny doesn't set payroll, JR & the investors do. Obviously, you can go make all the big-ticket moves you want if you can arbitrarily increase payroll. But in the real world, that's not an option.

Given the market situation of the Sox (or if you prefer, the budgetary constraints regardless of their cause), I think KW's done a pretty good job. If you're blaming him for not spending more $$$, you're missing your target. If you think that he's mis-spent the available $$$, then I would be interested to hear alternate plans that provide a better roster under the same payroll.

champagne030
01-12-2005, 04:35 PM
He also played in about 100 games in those 2 years, which I would interpret to mean that he was injured. The prior 2 years, when he played 120+games, he was .950+in OPS. He played 147 games in 2003 and again, posted a very good OPS.

Regardless, the options being Gload and his 91AB / .750OPS without great minor league #s, or Carl who would reasonably be expected to put up those #s on the low end if healthy, I'll take Carl, even with the $4mil 05 option.i'm not sure where carl gets playing time when/if frank comes back. i'm also not sure what his attitude will be sitting on the bench during a contract year. imo, he sure is a nice insurance policy for frank/dye over timo/borchard/gload.

ewokpelts
01-12-2005, 04:40 PM
The problem is that Kenny doesn't set payroll, JR & the investors do. Obviously, you can go make all the big-ticket moves you want if you can arbitrarily increase payroll. But in the real world, that's not an option.

Given the market situation of the Sox (or if you prefer, the budgetary constraints regardless of their cause), I think KW's done a pretty good job. If you're blaming him for not spending more $$$, you're missing your target. If you think that he's mis-spent the available $$$, then I would be interested to hear alternate plans that provide a better roster under the same payroll.I guess my biggest complaint of Kenny is that I feel that he lacks the "balls" to challenge JR and his payroll contraints. The more I think about I am reminded of Wirtz's great qoute " Championships are too expensive".....too bad that's what the people of Chicago starve for....
Gene

rdivaldi
01-12-2005, 04:46 PM
I guess my biggest complaint of Kenny is that I feel that he lacks the "balls" to challenge JR and his payroll contraints.
If there's ANY General Manger in this city that has any balls at all it's Kenny Williams.

But think about it, do you go into your bosses office and tell him to spend more money? I'm sure in some cases it's warranted, but that's not exactly the way to ensure job security.

HoustonAstros967
01-12-2005, 05:32 PM
This offseason has been one of the most productive of any team this year. They brought in a lot of defensive and speed and kicked out some un-nessecarry power hitters that were eating up all the budget (MAGGLIO!) The Sox brought in a good catcher and brought in a great pitcher. Their rotation is amazing. Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, and Garland. Can I hear playoffs? They also have a good bullpen to back that up. The only problem may be hitting but if Dye and Pods can play like they have in the past then the White Sox will be in a good position. 2005 ALCS White Sox vs. Yankees

anewman35
01-12-2005, 06:28 PM
I guess my biggest complaint of Kenny is that I feel that he lacks the "balls" to challenge JR and his payroll contraints. The more I think about I am reminded of Wirtz's great qoute " Championships are too expensive".....too bad that's what the people of Chicago starve for....
Gene
Um, I don't know what you do for a living, but in most jobs, it's not really a good idea to call your boss cheap, at least if you want to continue in that job.

SoxFan76
01-12-2005, 06:54 PM
This offseason has been one of the most productive of any team this year. They brought in a lot of defensive and speed and kicked out some un-nessecarry power hitters that were eating up all the budget (MAGGLIO!)
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I know Maggs was injured, but the fact of the matter is, he was one of the few 5-tool players in the majors. We were lucky to have Maggs on our team for all those years, however it is time to move on. He's a greedy jerk, so we'll leave it at that. But to say the Sox kicked out "some un-nessecary power hitters (I choose to leave in the typos)" is a bit ridiculous. Valentin is an unnecessary power hitter, Magglio was not.