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buehrle4cy05
01-06-2005, 08:35 PM
Nice debate-who has the best bullpen in baseball?
A) White Sox (Marte, Vizcaino, Politte, Hermanson, Shingo, etc.)
B) Anaheim (Even without Percival, they still have K-Rod and Brandon Donnely)
C) Yankees (Quantrill, Gordon, Rivera, and Karsay coming back)
D) San Diego (Linebrink, Otsuka, Hoffman)
E) Other

Tough choice, but the Sox have the best overall group, the Angels have the most talent, the Yankees have the most experience, and the Padres have a great 1-2-3 punch.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/masthead/cws_logo_primary.gif

munchman33
01-06-2005, 08:37 PM
That Padres pen is really top heavy. Reminds me of what Houston had in Hoffman, Lidge, and Dotel a few years back.

SOXintheBURGH
01-06-2005, 08:53 PM
It's scary to say the White Sox have the best anything... but that bullpen of ours is starting to look more and more impressive.

MRKARNO
01-10-2005, 12:38 AM
The Yanks because you're forgetting Felix Rodriguez.

TommyJohn
01-10-2005, 12:56 AM
It's scary to say the White Sox have the best anything... but that bullpen of ours is starting to look more and more impressive.
A bullpen with the likes of Neal Cotts and Jon Adkins shouldn't qualify for anything but a booby prize.

Rocklive99
01-10-2005, 12:57 AM
I really like ours at first, but now I'm worried that if it's being a little overrated?

Politte? Yuck. Hermanson? I have no clue but doesn't he have high ERA numbers? Vizcaino? Never seen him, hasn't proven anything. Shingo? Not sure if I am 100% confident with him as my stopper. Marte was okay, but subpar in key situations last year.

I think we have a good bullpen, but I didn't feel that bad about our pen last year at the beginning of the year, and then Opening Day happened, and everyone realized what we had and the sky was falling. I am confident though that even if this group is shaky that our starting pitching will make it so that is okay.

Sorry to sound pessimistic, I guess it's because I've been getting rocked in MVP 04 ;)

Lip Man 1
01-10-2005, 11:47 AM
Any bullpen that has Neil Cotts and Jon Adkins in it can not by any stretch of the definition be considered the 'best' in baseball.

Lip

OEO Magglio
01-10-2005, 12:31 PM
Any bullpen that has Neil Cotts and Jon Adkins in it can not by any stretch of the definition be considered the 'best' in baseball.

Lip
Right when I saw you posted in this thread I knew that's the exact thing you were going to say, you're to predictable. Anyways it's nice how you give up on players after one season, 2nd as of right now Adkins might not even be a part of the bullpen going into the year. Also when Neal is your long reliever and Politte is your 5th option coming out of the pen then you are ranked up there with the top pens in the league.

Whitesox029
01-10-2005, 01:14 PM
The Yanks because you're forgetting Felix Rodriguez. And Esteban Loaiza--don't laugh. He was pretty darn good in that ALCS.

OEO Magglio
01-10-2005, 01:21 PM
And Esteban Loaiza--don't laugh. He was pretty darn good in that ALCS.
He's a free agent.

34 Inch Stick
01-10-2005, 01:55 PM
I always consider bullpens to be volatile from year to year because they are made up of pitchers who were not good enough to start. I like what we have but I think you will have to wait until July to rate bullpen production.

depy48
01-10-2005, 01:59 PM
That Padres pen is really top heavy. Reminds me of what Houston had in Hoffman, Lidge, and Dotel a few years back.
you mean billy wagner, dotel, and lidge....

Mohoney
01-10-2005, 02:11 PM
Any bullpen that has Neil Cotts and Jon Adkins in it can not by any stretch of the definition be considered the 'best' in baseball.

Lip
I don't think Adkins is going to make the team. If they do carry a 12th pitcher, I hope it's Munoz.

santo=dorf
01-10-2005, 02:12 PM
Any bullpen that has Neil Cotts and Jon Adkins in it can not by any stretch of the definition be considered the 'best' in baseball.

Lip:rolleyes:

Who has the best bullpen then Lip?
Oh, and his name is spelled NEAL.

Mickster
01-10-2005, 02:42 PM
I don't know who has the BEST bullpen but I honestly feel that the Sox have the deepest pen. The only thing that we lack is a premier closer ala Gagne, Rivera et al. We are certainly very deep, though.

FarWestChicago
01-10-2005, 05:53 PM
Right when I saw you posted in this thread I knew that's the exact thing you were going to say, you're to predictable.You know, Lip's "posts" are so predictable one has to wonder if the Lip who does excellent interviews and articles is actually the Lip who "posts"? Perhaps this poster is actually a very poorly written bot. A Depression Bot of sorts. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

MRKARNO
01-10-2005, 06:10 PM
Any bullpen that has Neil Cotts and Jon Adkins in it can not by any stretch of the definition be considered the 'best' in baseball.

Lip
In an ideal world, neither of them are in the bullpen and Munoz and Diaz, both of whom are probably better suited for such roles in the longterm and short term, are in the bullpen

mcfish
01-10-2005, 06:17 PM
I don't think Adkins is going to make the team. If they do carry a 12th pitcher, I hope it's Munoz.Arnie "Couldn't Get Out of the 3rd Inning in Montreal" Munoz?

MRKARNO
01-10-2005, 06:30 PM
Arnie "Couldn't Get Out of the 3rd Inning in Montreal" Munoz?
Since when does the worth of a pitcher boil down to one regular season game in June? He's still a great relief prospect. You cant judge the entire worth of the guy based on one start after being called up directly from AA. It was an awful situation that he was put into.

mcfish
01-10-2005, 06:38 PM
Since when does the worth of a pitcher boil down to one regular season game in June? He's still a great relief prospect. You cant judge the entire worth of the guy based on one start after being called up directly from AA. It was an awful situation that he was put into.I know. I know. I couldn't help myself. I really was kidding. That game was actually a lot of fun to watch - as bad as the final outcome was. The offense kept trying to get us back and coming just short every time. What a painful memory. I harbor no ill will toward Arnie Munoz - I'm sure we'll see him again in the next year or two and give him another go at it.

MRKARNO
01-10-2005, 06:45 PM
I know. I know. I couldn't help myself. I really was kidding. That game was actually a lot of fun to watch - as bad as the final outcome was. The offense kept trying to get us back and coming just short every time. What a painful memory. I harbor no ill will toward Arnie Munoz - I'm sure we'll see him again in the next year or two and give him another go at it.
That's fair. I only made the comment because I think a lot of people around here actually believe that the one game in Montreal makes him a lesser candidate than Jon "look at me! I had a .358 on base percentage against" Adkins or Neal "ouch my neck hurts from watching too many home run balls" Cotts. Of the two, I think Cotts has the better potential to be a valuable arm in the bullpen, but I dont see anything with Adkins.

OurBitchinMinny
01-10-2005, 06:46 PM
the white sox bullpen is better, but still overrated. Like has been said, cotts and adkins out there automatically DQs you from having the best pen. No lights out closer. Marte struggled and you never know which polite is gonna show up. Dont know much about vizcaino. We will see. Its not the best in baseball, not even top 5

mcfish
01-10-2005, 06:55 PM
That's fair. I only made the comment because I think a lot of people around here actually believe that the one game in Montreal makes him a lesser candidate than Jon "look at me! I had a .358 on base percentage against" Adkins or Neal "ouch my neck hurts from watching too many home run balls" Cotts. Of the two, I think Cotts has the better potential to be a valuable arm in the bullpen, but I dont see anything with Adkins.I truly don't understand what people see in Cotts besides "potential." He was pretty bad last year. He needs to develop another pitch (probably two) because that 2 pitch thing he has going on right now is not going to work for very long at this level. Some pitchers could pull it off, but Cotts is not one of them. As for Adkins, he seemed to be just taking up space by the end of last season. By August they didn't seem to go to him in any big situations at all, IIRC. He blew plenty of chances early as well.

My favorite part of all this is when people try to defend these two via the Mike Jackson excuse. "Well, MJ would come in and give up their runs and drive up their ERA." This was sometimes true, but not always. And even when it was, why didn't they get the people out themselves and not have to worry about bringing in the guaranteed grand slam that was Mike Jackson.

fquaye149
01-10-2005, 07:04 PM
the white sox bullpen is better, but still overrated. Like has been said, cotts and adkins out there automatically DQs you from having the best pen. No lights out closer. Marte struggled and you never know which polite is gonna show up. Dont know much about vizcaino. We will see. Its not the best in baseball, not even top 5
wow - white sox fans are like cubs fans, only in reverse. This is not necessarily a good thing. While a cubs fan will take an average pitcher like Farnsworth and turn him into the next Bobby Thigpen, apparently many people here want to take an average (and YOUNG) pitcher like Cotts and turn him into the next Billy Koch.

*****. Yes, he throws a lot of balls. Yes, he hasn't been electric, but for a bottom of the bullpen long reliever he is not exactly a deadweight dragging the white sox bullpen ship to the bottom of the ocean.

And this Marte struggled thing...yeah fine.

jabrch
01-10-2005, 07:07 PM
I'm not sure where that pen ranks amongst the best, but the fact that we can even honestly talk about it in that goup is a great improvement over some previous bullpens. I do wish we had a closer who had better stuff and not such gimmicky stuff - I'd feel more comfortable. But I sure loved the results we got from Shingo next year. If he can repeat, I'd be thrilled to death and this will be a top 5 pen.

MRKARNO
01-10-2005, 07:19 PM
I truly don't understand what people see in Cotts besides "potential."
A high strikeout rate

OEO Magglio
01-10-2005, 07:22 PM
A high strikeout rate
The reason I like Neal and think he's going to be a good pitcher is of how he can blow his fastball by people when they know it's coming, if he can develop another decent pitch he'll be at worse a very solid reliever, imo.

buehrle4cy05
01-10-2005, 09:50 PM
wow - white sox fans are like cubs fans, only in reverse. This is not necessarily a good thing. While a cubs fan will take an average pitcher like Farnsworth and turn him into the next Bobby Thigpen, apparently many people here want to take an average (and YOUNG) pitcher like Cotts and turn him into the next Billy Koch.

*****. Yes, he throws a lot of balls. Yes, he hasn't been electric, but for a bottom of the bullpen long reliever he is not exactly a deadweight dragging the white sox bullpen ship to the bottom of the ocean.

And this Marte struggled thing...yeah fine.
Kyle Farnsworth as the next Bobby Thigpen? Did Thigpen ever let someone as slow as Adam Dunn steal second off him?
*I've met Kyle Farnsworth, thought it would be a good time to bring this up-he's a total airhead. I wouldn't put it past him to get his leg cut when kicking a fan, (Oh wait, that already happened).

TDog
01-10-2005, 10:14 PM
I always consider bullpens to be volatile from year to year because they are made up of pitchers who were not good enough to start. I like what we have but I think you will have to wait until July to rate bullpen production.
You're right. Really, the same applies to starting rotations to a certain extent, and they're made up of pitchers who are good enough to start. Pitching can be a fragile thing.

A couple of seasons ago, the Sox went into the season with everyone thinking their bullpen was their strength, with the addition of pitchers like Rick White. Everyone was wrong.

In fact, the Cubs went into 2004 believing they had a solid bullpen. Their big save guy from 2003 was coming back, and they had acquired some bullpen guys that were supposed to be seasoned pros. By the end of the season it was the bullpen (along with Steve Stone) taking the blame for the team finishing in third place.

The Sox look like they have a decent bullpen. I hope they do.