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GASHWOUND
10-17-2001, 11:35 PM
I heard Tdub and callers talk about this yesterday and I thought their could be a case for him. People would probably say that Aaron, Mays, Mantle, and Ruth are ahead of him. But if you look at the season's this guy has put up including this year. I think he is.
Than people would bring up that pitching is watered down and past players had to face tougher pitchers r ballparks are smaller. Bonds has faced HOF pitching or border HOF pitching through out his career. Ruth and Aaron hit HR in HR friendly parks. County stadium was a launchig pad. Ruth hit in Yankees stadium's short porch.
I heard one caller say that sosa had a better season than Bond's this year. You should've heard this guy. "Uhh, he had more rbi's and he hit with nobody around him." Shut up!
I already know he's the best leftfielder of all time. But when Bond's career is done, I think even if he doesn't match Aaron's HR record, he should be considered the best player of all time.

Bmr31
10-18-2001, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND
I heard Tdub and callers talk about this yesterday and I thought their could be a case for him. People would probably say that Aaron, Mays, Mantle, and Ruth are ahead of him. But if you look at the season's this guy has put up including this year. I think he is.
Than people would bring up that pitching is watered down and past players had to face tougher pitchers r ballparks are smaller. Bonds has faced HOF pitching or border HOF pitching through out his career. Ruth and Aaron hit HR in HR friendly parks. County stadium was a launchig pad. Ruth hit in Yankees stadium's short porch.
I heard one caller say that sosa had a better season than Bond's this year. You should've heard this guy. "Uhh, he had more rbi's and he hit with nobody around him." Shut up!
I already know he's the best leftfielder of all time. But when Bond's career is done, I think even if he doesn't match Aaron's HR record, he should be considered the best player of all time.

Barry Bonds is not even in the top 10.....

OfficerKarkovice
10-18-2001, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Barry Bonds is not even in the top 10.....

Ummm...yes he is

Bmr31
10-18-2001, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice


Ummm...yes he is



Please. Hes accomplishing numbers against horrible pitching and hes a BIG TIME choker when the games actually count. Hes not even close to top ten all time.

FarWestChicago
10-18-2001, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31




Please. Hes accomplishing numbers against horrible pitching and hes a BIG TIME choker when the games actually count. Hes not even close to top ten all time. Actually, it depends on how you define "when games really count". He has a history of great Septembers and getting his teams into the playoffs. He just has a little problem with October. :)

GASHWOUND
10-18-2001, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Barry Bonds is not even in the top 10.....

Jeez, so I guess he's not the best player ever in your mind. I'll respect your opinion, but if you don't mind could you name the 10 players who are better in your mind. Excluding pitching of course.

duke of dorwood
10-18-2001, 09:52 AM
On quick thought I have him 12th

Top 10

Not in any order, Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Ted Williams, Aaron, Mantle. DiMaggio, Mays, Musial, Rose.

Then I have Johnny Bench then Bonds. With Reggie Jackson close.

:shammy

Where the hell am I ?

doublem23
10-18-2001, 10:51 AM
I wouldn't say best ever, because it takes away from guys like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and such and such who built the game. Perhaps from a purely atheltic standpoint, Bonds ranks up there, but from that stance the best ever was (and most likely always will be) Willie Mays...

Given that, Bonds is clearly the best player of the 90s, and quite possibly the best player since the days of Ted Williams, and undoubtedly the best since Hank Aaron & Roberto Clemente back in the 70s. The only other player who even comes close to Bonds in that span would be Pete Rose, but he lacked the power that Bonds did (Rose did, however, have the rings).

As for active players (again)? Here's the doublem23 official ranking of current position players:

1. Barry Bonds
2. Roberto Alomar
3. Ichiro Suzuki

Whoops, bell rang. I gotta run... I'll finish this later.

duke of dorwood
10-18-2001, 10:58 AM
Alomar? Over A-Rod?

Nellie_Fox
10-18-2001, 11:26 AM
Another thing to consider about the competition today. Back then, the best athletes were baseball players. Period. Baseball was the game. Pro football was a game for thugs and basketball was so marginal that it's not even worth discussing. Today the best young athletes don't play baseball.

Iwritecode
10-18-2001, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Another thing to consider about the competition today. Back then, the best athletes were baseball players. Period. Baseball was the game. Pro football was a game for thugs and basketball was so marginal that it's not even worth discussing. Today the best young athletes don't play baseball.

I don't know, MJ looked pretty bad trying to swing the bat. Although he looked like he was starting to come around at the end there...

We managed to get Borchard to stick to baseball instead of football. Frank Thomas played college football too I beleive.

Question for anyone: Are there any athletes out there that you think would make a good baseball player?

Bmr31
10-18-2001, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
I wouldn't say best ever, because it takes away from guys like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and such and such who built the game. Perhaps from a purely atheltic standpoint, Bonds ranks up there, but from that stance the best ever was (and most likely always will be) Willie Mays...

Given that, Bonds is clearly the best player of the 90s, and quite possibly the best player since the days of Ted Williams, and undoubtedly the best since Hank Aaron & Roberto Clemente back in the 70s. The only other player who even comes close to Bonds in that span would be Pete Rose, but he lacked the power that Bonds did (Rose did, however, have the rings).

As for active players (again)? Here's the doublem23 official ranking of current position players:

1. Barry Bonds
2. Roberto Alomar
3. Ichiro Suzuki

Whoops, bell rang. I gotta run... I'll finish this later.


IS bonds top 3 over the last 25 years? Of course. To call him the best player ever, or even top ten ever, isnt very observant. He MAY, and i repeat MAY, be in the top 20 or 25 ever.....

FarWestChicago
10-18-2001, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I don't know, MJ looked pretty bad trying to swing the bat. Although he looked like he was starting to come around at the end there...This isn't really a valid comparison. Nellie is right about the old days. Most kids played baseball as their number one sport. They learned the skills from a young age. MJ was trying to relearn after a 10+ year layoff.

Bmr31
10-18-2001, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Actually, it depends on how you define "when games really count". He has a history of great Septembers and getting his teams into the playoffs. He just has a little problem with October. :)


West are you trolling me again?? :) :)

FarWestChicago
10-18-2001, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



West are you trolling me again??Who, me? I am a wise guy, but I never troll. :)

Bmr31
10-18-2001, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Who, me? I am a wise guy, but I never troll. :)


lol ok ok, so ill respond to you. I hardly think bonds september numbers compare to reggies lous and babes october numbers....bonds is and was a playoff choker. I think that should be a LARGE consideration to top 10 players ever. I dont think bonds is even close to top 10, let alone #1.

Tragg
10-18-2001, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31




Please. Hes accomplishing numbers against horrible pitching and hes a BIG TIME choker when the games actually count. Hes not even close to top ten all time.

You could say the same about Willy Mays. His playoff numbers are less than scintillating.

It's hard to compare eras. You're right that the pitching is watered down and this is a hitter's era. Guys like Mantle and Killebrew hit a lot of homers in a pitchers era.

I think Ruth is number one, period, no question. Does Bonds belong in the top 10? Maybe, but I'm not convinced.

Bmr31
10-18-2001, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


You could say the same about Willy Mays. His playoff numbers are less than scintillating.

It's hard to compare eras. You're right that the pitching is watered down and this is a hitter's era. Guys like Mantle and Killebrew hit a lot of homers in a pitchers era.

I think Ruth is number one, period, no question. Does Bonds belong in the top 10? Maybe, but I'm not convinced.



nor am i....

GASHWOUND
10-18-2001, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Another thing to consider about the competition today. Back then, the best athletes were baseball players. Period. Baseball was the game. Pro football was a game for thugs and basketball was so marginal that it's not even worth discussing. Today the best young athletes don't play baseball.

Well, the men who play baseball today are FAR more stronger, bigger, and more athletic than players in the past. So even if the best young athletes don't chose baseball, the people who do are still VERY good athletes and just as athletic as players from the past, perhaps even more.

GASHWOUND
10-18-2001, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



IS bonds top 3 over the last 25 years? Of course. To call him the best player ever, or even top ten ever, isnt very observant. He MAY, and i repeat MAY, be in the top 20 or 25 ever.....

He may be in the top 25? Are you including pitchers? I think even if you do include pitchers he's in the top 15.
When his career is done he will have over 600 HR's How many players have over 600 HR's? I pretty sure he's gonna win the MVP this year, which would make to go along with his others. 3 or 4 is it?
He hit 73 HR's. He broke 4 offensive records this year. His career #'s to this point should put him at least in the top 10. At least. I can not even if I was forced to try and pick 24 better players than him I couldn't. 24 players are better than him? I don't believe it. Maybe this has something to do cause of his attitude that you ranked him that low, but no way that 24 players are better than him.

Bmr31
10-19-2001, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND


He may be in the top 25? Are you including pitchers? I think even if you do include pitchers he's in the top 15.
When his career is done he will have over 600 HR's How many players have over 600 HR's? I pretty sure he's gonna win the MVP this year, which would make to go along with his others. 3 or 4 is it?
He hit 73 HR's. He broke 4 offensive records this year. His career #'s to this point should put him at least in the top 10. At least. I can not even if I was forced to try and pick 24 better players than him I couldn't. 24 players are better than him? I don't believe it. Maybe this has something to do cause of his attitude that you ranked him that low, but no way that 24 players are better than him.


24 players are EASILY better than bonds......

OfficerKarkovice
10-19-2001, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



24 players are EASILY better than bonds......

Bmr...are u on drugs? do u truly think this? i would like you to list 24 players that are better than barry bonds...we are thinking logically here so dont come back with some dumbass response taht i am going to have to rip you for...bonds is without a doubt one of the top players to play mlb and to say that he isnt even in the top 25 is jsut plain stupid and everybody here knows it...dont be an idiot bmr and just admit you were stupid in posting that and i will let you correct yourself

Bmr31
10-19-2001, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice


Bmr...are u on drugs? do u truly think this? i would like you to list 24 players that are better than barry bonds...we are thinking logically here so dont come back with some dumbass response taht i am going to have to rip you for...bonds is without a doubt one of the top players to play mlb and to say that he isnt even in the top 25 is jsut plain stupid and everybody here knows it...dont be an idiot bmr and just admit you were stupid in posting that and i will let you correct yourself

Bmr31
10-19-2001, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice


Bmr...are u on drugs? do u truly think this? i would like you to list 24 players that are better than barry bonds...we are thinking logically here so dont come back with some dumbass response taht i am going to have to rip you for...bonds is without a doubt one of the top players to play mlb and to say that he isnt even in the top 25 is jsut plain stupid and everybody here knows it...dont be an idiot bmr and just admit you were stupid in posting that and i will let you correct yourself


hey kark i will name one player a day for the next month, who is better than bonds, ok?

Today, my player is royce clayton....... :)

Nellie_Fox
10-19-2001, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND


Well, the men who play baseball today are FAR more stronger, bigger, and more athletic than players in the past. So even if the best young athletes don't chose baseball, the people who do are still VERY good athletes and just as athletic as players from the past, perhaps even more.

Being bigger, stronger, faster doesn't make you a better baseball player. What I'm talking about is that in the thirties, forties and fifties, just about every kid played baseball all the time. Their glove was always dangling from the handlebars of their bicycle just in case a game sprung up. There were pickup games in empty lots all over the place. When's the last time you saw ten year olds playing baseball other than at an organized little league game? What I'm saying is that the kids were better ball players in general, coupled with the best athletes making baseball their first sport makes the players who made it to the pros back then better all-around players with better fundamentals than you get today.

Ichiro plays ball the way it used to be played, and look how successful he's been. He knows how to bunt, how to hit behind the runner, all the stuff that very few modern players know about.

OfficerKarkovice
10-19-2001, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



hey kark i will name one player a day for the next month, who is better than bonds, ok?

Today, my player is royce clayton....... :)

LOL...ok that sounds like a plan

Iwritecode
10-19-2001, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Being bigger, stronger, faster doesn't make you a better baseball player.

Ichiro plays ball the way it used to be played, and look how successful he's been. He knows how to bunt, how to hit behind the runner, all the stuff that very few modern players know about.

:shammy

Man, what the heck are you talking about? Bunt? Hit behind a runner? Don't you know that all my uh, I mean THE fans care about is zingers? You make is sound like winning is important.

oldcomiskey
10-20-2001, 01:54 PM
lets see here 10 ofeensive players better than Barry

1> Babe Ruth
2 Hank Aaron
3 Willie Mays
4. Jimmie Foxx(and I dont mean Redd or Nellie)
5. Ted Williams
6. Yaz to me was the best clutch hitter who ever played
7. Rogers Hornby
8. Ty Cobb
9. Pete Rose and
10 Julio Ramirez(just to see if you were paying attention)
and...
Stan Musial---and that dont include--Rod Carew so there is no way hes in MY all time top 10

oldcomiskey
10-20-2001, 01:56 PM
hat dont include Mantle or Joe D either

Bmr31
10-20-2001, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
hat dont include Mantle or Joe D either



yeah like i said, bonds is around 20 to 25...

Spiff
10-20-2001, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31




yeah like i said, bonds is around 20 to 25...

So in your Humble Opinion why is Mantle better than Bonds?

oldcomiskey
10-20-2001, 05:28 PM
first, my opinion is never humble and second--Mantle was a switch hitter who played in a HUGE ballpark--who--if he couldve just stayed healthy---wouldve done a lot better

Bmr31
10-20-2001, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
first, my opinion is never humble and second--Mantle was a switch hitter who played in a HUGE ballpark--who--if he couldve just stayed healthy---wouldve done a lot better


and he accomplished those numbers while being completely wasted......... :)

Bmr31
10-20-2001, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


So in your Humble Opinion why is Mantle better than Bonds?


I should check history before i respond to this but im too lazy. Im assuming mantle won a few rings. He was a switch hitter with amazing power, and he faced better pitching.

Bmr31
10-20-2001, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



I should check history before i respond to this but im too lazy. Im assuming mantle won a few rings. He was a switch hitter with amazing power, and he faced better pitching.


wow mantle played in 65 WORLD SERIES games....

Spiff
10-20-2001, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



wow mantle played in 65 WORLD SERIES games....

WOW is it Bonds' fault they haven't surrounded him with talent? Granted, more timely hitting might have made a bit of a difference but when you give the ball to Stan Belinda there isn't much Bonds can do.

Bmr31
10-20-2001, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


WOW is it Bonds' fault they haven't surrounded him with talent? Granted, more timely hitting might have made a bit of a difference but when you give the ball to Stan Belinda there isn't much Bonds can do.


His fault? Maybe not completely. I think my point was, the best player of all time, or even a top 20 player, better have some winning credentials under his belt. Bonds does not. His career .196 playoff average backs that. 1 post season HR in 27 games? Please.............. :)