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Vsahajpal
10-17-2001, 08:24 PM
SCOTT ROLEN is not a cancer. He is neither the anti-Christ nor the anti-Bowa.

But make no mistake ... Scott Rolen, the third-base thinking man, is the Phillies' worst nightmare. He is the pending negotiation by which the stewardship of Phillies general manager Eddie Wade will be measured.

The decisions hanging on the terms and conditions that either will keep Rolen here through his prime seasons or will show him the door could determine the fiscal course of this troubled ownership group.

Compounding the morality play being written incident by incident, innuendo by innuendo, stroke by counterstroke is the persona of the athlete himself.

Scott Rolen embodies all the things Philadelphia fans say they cherish in an athlete. He plays baseball at a furious, straight-ahead pace. He dirties his uniform. While the body of his work since he became the third baseman in the second half of the 1996 season falls short of superstar offensive parameters, it has been unswervingly consistent.

Taking 84 games missed mostly to injuries in 1999 and 2000 into consideration, Rolen has emerged as a .285 hitter who will produce 25 to 30 homers and drive in 100-plus runs. And while his offensive production often has been a subject of controversy and concern, he has erased most doubts that he ranks among the best defensive third baseman of all time.

I was trashed in 1998 for writing that Rolen was a better third baseman than Mike Schmidt at the same stage. Now, Larry Bowa, who played here for most of Schmidt's career, says he never has seen a third baseman with a better combination of glove, arm and range.

Add to his baseball skills Rolen's keen intelligence and clean image, and a special man begins to emerge, a man worth keeping around for a long time.

But at what price?

I became aware by accident that this complicated young man was going to be a complicated problem.

During an early exhibition last spring, a man in his mid-20s joined me in the stands at Jack Russell Stadium and introduced himself as Rolen's high school teammate in Marion,Jasper, Ind., a lefthanded pitcher. He told me how his pal had his heart set on playing basketball at the University of Kentucky and signed with Georgia after Tubby Smiththe Wildcats failed to recruit him. I heard how in addition to being a great baseball and basketball player at MarionJasper High, Rolen was the best high school tennis player in Indiana. So far, I hadn't asked a question...

Which is why Scott's homie rocked me when he said, "There's no way he's going to re-sign with the Phillies, you know. It's nothing against the city or the fans. He just hates the East. He's a Midwest guy who would love to play in Chicago, St. Louis or Cincinnati.''


http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily_news/2001/10/11/sports/conl11s.htm


hmmmmm....three teams I know with the pitching prospects to get Rolen are the Sox, Mariners and Cubs, but only 2 play in the Midwest

this after the Chan Ho Park excerpt in the latest Baseball Weekly

Should be an interesting offseason for the Sox/Cubs, city of Chicago

go Bears!

Bmr31
10-17-2001, 08:46 PM
Hmmmmmm i really dont see the sox having any interest in Rolen. Theyre grooming Crede to be their 3B guy for the next 10 years.

RichieRichAllen
10-17-2001, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Hmmmmmm i really dont see the sox having any interest in Rolen. Theyre grooming Crede to be their 3B guy for the next 10 years.

Package Crede and a quality AAA pitcher to get Rolen.

I roll my eyes in amazement when we all want to win next year, but keep holding blind faith that guys who haven't played for 1/2 year at the major league level will bring us to the playoffs, let alone the World Series in the next two years.

Borchard in Center Field
Rowand in Left/Center Field
Rauch at Starting Pitcher
Crede at Third Base

Give me a break! The love of Crede here is tantamount to an "I'm not sure, but I think he might be the best thing since sliced bread. Yep, he's our third baseman, alright."

For chrissakes, if we even have a chance to get a guy like Rolen, give up the Crede (never was) experiment. A team like the Phillies might love to take on the project. Their value will diminish mightily in '02 (when they start playing their weight). We, on the other hand, get a solid offensive, defensive third baseman with a winner's attitude. And he wants to play in the midwest (an intangible, I know)!

The same folks ballyhooing unproven rookies in starting positions next year seem to be the same ones thinking that Mark B. should be the #1 starter. Mark did a great job this year, but he is still UNPROVEN. He needs, at the minimum, another year under his belt before he even remotely qualifies as a #1 starter on a team that wants to win pennants and/or World Series. Unless D. Wells plays for damn near next to nothing, can we please give up on him, too? If he's healthy, he's a Yankee.

In any event, we need somebody younger, stronger with the ability to lead a pitching staff. Speaking of which, I'll take Acosta over Contreras anyday. I don't see any Sox pitchers throwing a mutiny if Contreras were to leave in the way the Cub hurlers have over Acosta. Grab him, Reinsdorff!

Finally, another myth we need to bury now is that the Sox will be able to reconstruct 2000 again. The players (even the young ones, especially the young ones) are two years older now. The chemistry they felt in '00 was, in fact, jaded by the '01 season. The '02 season needs to be a different kind of chemistry. We need leaders in the clubhouse and Valentin ain't the only one we should be placing our money on. Hell, as fans, we need to get smarter and look at what teams like the Braves, Yankees, Seattle, Houston, etc. are doing to get them into the playoffs annually. Money is power, but it's not everything. It's more of an excuse in a lot of ways for failure.

I've said enough. But damn, that was cathartic!

GASHWOUND
10-17-2001, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Hmmmmmm i really dont see the sox having any interest in Rolen. Theyre grooming Crede to be their 3B guy for the next 10 years.

Wow, a perfect opportunity to get Rolen! That would be great. Just package Crede and another pitcher. I think Philly would bite. At least with Rolen he has proven what he can do. LETS GET ROLEN!
I think we have a shot. :)

Daver
10-17-2001, 09:41 PM
Of the four players you mentioned only Crede and Rowand will come north next year,Crede deserves his chance and can't be worse than the Perry/Valentin experiment,and I think Rowand has proved he can hit and play at this level.

Mark Buerhle can be a #1 starter,this will be his 3rd major league season,and he has proved the fact that he is a four pitch pitcher that can throw any of them for strikes.What more seasoning does he really need?

David Wells reiterated the fact last week that he is very interested in coming back to the Sox for an incentive deal,the question is do they want him.

Bmr31
10-17-2001, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen


Package Crede and a quality AAA pitcher to get Rolen.

I roll my eyes in amazement when we all want to win next year, but keep holding blind faith that guys who haven't played for 1/2 year at the major league level will bring us to the playoffs, let alone the World Series in the next two years.

Borchard in Center Field
Rowand in Left/Center Field
Rauch at Starting Pitcher
Crede at Third Base

Give me a break! The love of Crede here is tantamount to an "I'm not sure, but I think he might be the best thing since sliced bread. Yep, he's our third baseman, alright."

For chrissakes, if we even have a chance to get a guy like Rolen, give up the Crede (never was) experiment. A team like the Phillies might love to take on the project. Their value will diminish mightily in '02 (when they start playing their weight). We, on the other hand, get a solid offensive, defensive third baseman with a winner's attitude. And he wants to play in the midwest (an intangible, I know)!

The same folks ballyhooing unproven rookies in starting positions next year seem to be the same ones thinking that Mark B. should be the #1 starter. Mark did a great job this year, but he is still UNPROVEN. He needs, at the minimum, another year under his belt before he even remotely qualifies as a #1 starter on a team that wants to win pennants and/or World Series. Unless D. Wells plays for damn near next to nothing, can we please give up on him, too? If he's healthy, he's a Yankee.

In any event, we need somebody younger, stronger with the ability to lead a pitching staff. Speaking of which, I'll take Acosta over Contreras anyday. I don't see any Sox pitchers throwing a mutiny if Contreras were to leave in the way the Cub hurlers have over Acosta. Grab him, Reinsdorff!

Finally, another myth we need to bury now is that the Sox will be able to reconstruct 2000 again. The players (even the young ones, especially the young ones) are two years older now. The chemistry they felt in '00 was, in fact, jaded by the '01 season. The '02 season needs to be a different kind of chemistry. We need leaders in the clubhouse and Valentin ain't the only one we should be placing our money on. Hell, as fans, we need to get smarter and look at what teams like the Braves, Yankees, Seattle, Houston, etc. are doing to get them into the playoffs annually. Money is power, but it's not everything. It's more of an excuse in a lot of ways for failure.

I've said enough. But damn, that was cathartic!

Do you understand business? First of all what makes you think we can get rolen for crede and another guy? Have you spoken the the philly GM? Second of all, the sox organization BELIEVES in Crede and he comes at a much cheaper price than rolen, giving us millions to improve our team where WE NEED IT. Catcher, SS and CF. The sox likely have little interest in rolen.

kermittheefrog
10-18-2001, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal

hmmmmm....three teams I know with the pitching prospects to get Rolen are the Sox, Mariners and Cubs, but only 2 play in the Midwest

this after the Chan Ho Park excerpt in the latest Baseball Weekly

Should be an interesting offseason for the Sox/Cubs, city of Chicago

go Bears!

Don't forget Houston.

and go Bears ineed!

Vsahajpal
10-18-2001, 02:35 AM
Houston's not in the mix; Hunsicker doesn't want to expand payroll after giving Hidalgo a nice extension, and Bagwell 85 million. Billy Wagner, Astacio, and Alou are all free agents, not to mention the incumbant (sp?) 3b Vinny Castilla.

If St. Louis gets Rolen, I may not watch a single game in 2002...

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND


Wow, a perfect opportunity to get Rolen! That would be great. Just package Crede and another pitcher. I think Philly would bite. At least with Rolen he has proven what he can do. LETS GET ROLEN!
I think we have a shot. :)

Cute, Gash. OK, let's package Crede, a AAA pitcher and one of our wanna-be "star" starters to land Rolen. You're not much on grasping opportunities now, are you? We're at a point where if we don't aggressively pursue, we're back to rebuilding again. Sadly enough, it's our makeup. The pathetic management we have build for a few years, disembark, and then build again. Get it?

BTW, what were you actually trying to contribute here? Got some other solutions? Think Crede is our solution? Hows about Borchand in the OF? Standing pat with our starters? Believing that with Valentin + Thomas back, we will inherit the earth? Gosh darn, we'd have Valentin as catcher just to keep him in the lineup, wouldn't we? Get over Valentin. He's great as a DH. We (apparently) have a DH in Thomas. Somebody's gotta' go. Hey, wait a minute, we ALSO have a DH in Lee, as well. Surprise, Surprise! But gosh darn, if we aren't comfortable with all of them. Don't trade any of them. We'll find a place for 'em. We can all recapture the 2000 chemistry again if we can only close our eyes.

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Do you understand business? First of all what makes you think we can get rolen for crede and another guy? Have you spoken the the philly GM? Second of all, the sox organization BELIEVES in Crede and he comes at a much cheaper price than rolen, giving us millions to improve our team where WE NEED IT. Catcher, SS and CF. The sox likely have little interest in rolen.

Do I understand business? Well, I guess not if you're questioning my knowledge. You must be an owner, No? Perhaps a GM? Perhaps a pudknocker who likes to pretend? Gotcha'!

Yes, the Sox management has definitely shown a commitment to Crede. You betcha'. We saw it this year when the Sox placed Valentin, Perry, Liefer and a team of thousands to play the position that Joe C. was tailor-made for. Well, shoot....maybe he done needed a little more AAA experience then. So, where was he when the Sox wound up the season, (quite obviously) without a shot at the post-season?

Crede comes at a cheaper price? LOL- sure he does. So would a lot of players at positions throughout the lineup. If only I could think like an accountant, I might be able to field a championship team too! Not!

As far as placing money where the mouth is (which I find pretty disgusting, anyway), I don't think CF is a high priority on our list. Singleton and Rowand can platoon next year. A decision needs to be made at SS. Honestly, I don't want Clayton or Valentin. If we can't improve at the position, the answer lies in the "pot of gumbo" that the Jerry's have placed in other positions. If we don't improve defensively, Clayton gets the edge. If we do, Valentin takes it. The best of all worlds is if we grab somebody that offers a little of both.

Actually, if Clayton weren't so hated by Sox fans feeling that Valentin was slighted by his prescence, he'd be a plausible choice. But, Manos fans seem to have developed a screen around him akin to the fortress of solitude. Forget about penetrating it. It's a friggin' love affair, already! He could kick or throw away balls left and right if we made the playoffs next year. His defenders would still gather round the campfire singing praises. Yeah, he's guts. He's like us (blue-collar joes). Then he'd boot some balls during the playoffs and everybody's head would turn. Damn! We need defense if we ever get past the first round! If only we weren't on the verge of rebuilding next year......

Wish I had a better ending to this. I know I had a lot more to say. Damn this thing called sleep!

Well, la-de-da....did he bring us to the playoffs this year? For all the praise he gets, let's try and be balanced, OK?

Vsahajpal
10-18-2001, 04:18 AM
I'll take Acosta over Contreras anyday. I don't see any Sox pitchers throwing a mutiny if Contreras were to leave in the way the Cub hurlers have over Acosta. Grab him, Reinsdorff!

Trust me, you do not want Acosta anywhere near Buehrle, Garland, Fogg, Rauch, etc.

It amazes me how people can overlook his 2000 season in which the Cubs had the worst bullpen, and one of the worst staffs in recent Cub history. The Cubs faced very easy competition the first half of this season, facing the likes of Milwaukee, Montreal, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh numerous times. As a result of a veteran staff, they fared pretty well, with surprising results from Farnsworth, Bere, and Tavarez.

In the 2nd half they folded, and though the offense was the scapegoat, they actually performed better than the first half, while the pitching folded.

Tapani was aware the Cubs wouldn't pick up his option; he spouted off first, followed by Lieber.

Wood went outside the organization (to Nolan Ryan) for help.

Leo Mazzone, Joe Kerrigan, Vern Ruhle, Bryan Price, and Dave Duncan are probably the best pitching coaches in baseball. None of them are yellers. They're all calm, subltle teachers. Acosta tried to be a motivator. Major league players, for the most part, don't need motivating. They aren't 8 year olds who would rather be playing Nintendo. What they need is a pitching sage who can point out minor mechanical flaws, teach them to change speeds, and keep their confidence high in spite of inevitable struggles. Oscar Acosta wasn't any of those.


Fortunately for the Cubs and the rest of the NL Central, Acosta is headed to a worthless Milwaukee franchise, where he will be reunited with Ruben Quevedo, along with Ben Sheets and Nick Neugebauer, two fine young pitchers who are coming off of shoulder injuries.

Contreras may not be the guy, but Acosta certainly isn't. Perhaps Tommy John will leave the Barons booth for "greener" pastures; though his MLB pension has been in effect for quite some time now.

http://www.chicagosports.com/cubs/content/story/0,1984,165044,00.html

GASHWOUND
10-18-2001, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen


Cute, Gash. OK, let's package Crede, a AAA pitcher and one of our wanna-be "star" starters to land Rolen. You're not much on grasping opportunities now, are you? We're at a point where if we don't aggressively pursue, we're back to rebuilding again. Sadly enough, it's our makeup. The pathetic management we have build for a few years, disembark, and then build again. Get it?

BTW, what were you actually trying to contribute here? Got some other solutions? Think Crede is our solution? Hows about Borchand in the OF? Standing pat with our starters? Believing that with Valentin + Thomas back, we will inherit the earth? Gosh darn, we'd have Valentin as catcher just to keep him in the lineup, wouldn't we? Get over Valentin. He's great as a DH. We (apparently) have a DH in Thomas. Somebody's gotta' go. Hey, wait a minute, we ALSO have a DH in Lee, as well. Surprise, Surprise! But gosh darn, if we aren't comfortable with all of them. Don't trade any of them. We'll find a place for 'em. We can all recapture the 2000 chemistry again if we can only close our eyes.

Hmmm, a little grumpy when you wrote this, huh? Thats fine. I simply made a quick reference that about us having a shot at Rolen a thread about Scott Rolen. What do ya know. I made that reference cause he said that he would like to return and play in the midwest. We have a and a big 3rd base prospect in Joe Crede along with good young pitching that we can lure Philly into trading their young star. Of course this means that the Sox would have to be interested in Rolen and the Phills would want to trade him. And all signs point to Rolen not liking it there and coaches not getting along with him. Thats obvious. Of course it probably won't happen cause we are to high on Crede even though they didn't play him at he end of last season. Which was simply stupid.
I was being sarcasticy optimistic about us having a shot, but with a glimmer of hope that aybe once the Sox would actually go out and make such a deal. We did trade our best starter of '2000(Sirotka) for a broken down lefty(Wells) KW is capable of making such a deal, even if it did back fire on him.
We should be one of the teams that could go after him and have the resources to actually make such a deal.

The other stuff you wanted me to "contribute" to this thread is not relevant to this particular thread. Borhard, standing pat with our starting pitching. But if you want me to, I do got 15 more minutes.

It is obvious that Borchard is our future star outfielder and if he doesn't make this team for 2002, he will most probably be a call up at the end of the season.(I'm sure of it) Bt I would like him to make this team next year and get his MLB experience in early.
We must not stand pat with our current SP. KW and JM will have to put their half brains together and make a trade this offseason to get another vet. Maybe go out and sign one of the free agent pitching that out.(Jason Schimdtz sp?) would be nice. Maybe even resign D.Wells with an incentive laced contract which he mentioned he would agree to.

Crede as our future 3rd baseman? Well, he is our future 3rd baseman for right now and probably will be in our opening day lineup as our 3rd baseman. I would like the Sox to get Rolen, but i wouldn't be moaning cause Crede is gonna be our 3rd baseman. He has huge potential as does Borchard, but he has to prove he can hit in the big leagues(which i think he can) if given the chance. Maybe if he can bulk up just a little so he is able to hit with more power being at the "power hitters spot", 3rd base.
He does have similarities with Rolen and will probably become a "Rolen type" player. .280 hitter 25 HRs, 90-100 rbi guy. But Rolen as already he's a gamer and has proven he can hit consistently.
Will Crede be the same? Mmmm... maybe, but that has yet to be seen.
Sadly, or maybe not..Management is not or will not, which ever you'd like to look at it will not make this trade.
Why? Money...90% of the reason is why, but we're to "attached" to all of our youngens to trade them and we will live or die with that selfishness.

What can we do about but live and die by their choices Like all fans must do.

stefaninsane
10-18-2001, 12:42 PM
How about making Curt Hasler (birmingham) thr pitching coach? The Barons always have one of the best pitching staffs in the SL...maybe he'd be better working with Jon Rauch, Biddle, Kip, Garland et al...

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND


Hmmm, a little grumpy when you wrote this, huh?

My apologies, gash. I misread your post. That and the grumpiness are not uncommon when I'm having a little insomnia.

:)

GASHWOUND
10-18-2001, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen


My apologies, gash. I misread your post. That and the grumpiness are not uncommon when I'm having a little insomnia.

:)

Thats fine...I understand. I have massive insomnia also. Me getting 5 hours of sleep is heaven for me. :)

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2001, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND
Thats fine...I understand. I have massive insomnia also. Me getting 5 hours of sleep is heaven for me.

Same here but I get 5 and 1/2 hours!

RichieRichAllen
10-18-2001, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Same here but I get 5 and 1/2 hours!

LOL- Always the one upman, eh Jerry?

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2001, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
LOL- Always the one upman, eh Jerry?

You know it.