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View Full Version : Frank Thomas, is he worthy of the HoF?


DrCrawdad
01-04-2005, 01:12 PM
Frank has recorded at least 100 RBI, 100 walks and 100 runs scored in
the same year nine times, third most in baseball history behind Babe
Ruth (12) and Lou Gehrig (11).

Frank has two MVP and in 2000 finished 2nd to Jason Giambi. Had Giambi
not used steroids Frank no doubt would have won 3 MVP.

How many two time league MVP are not in the HoF? How many three time
MVP are not in the HoF?

IMHO Frank Thomas belongs in the HoF. No doubt Frank's bad attitude,
real or media myth, will play a role in hindering Frank's chances but
the DH argument will also be a large factor.

The medias' view of a player's attitude should, in a perfect world,
play no role in who goes into the HoF. If personality is going to be a
factor there are a helluva lot of players who never should have been
selected.

Flight #24
01-04-2005, 01:14 PM
Yes.


Nuf said.


FWIW Rob Neyer wrote a piece on this 1-2 years ago for Espn.

chisoxmike
01-04-2005, 01:15 PM
Yes.

Mohoney
01-04-2005, 01:15 PM
Once he hits his 500th home run, he's got to be automatic.

Plus, he will probably retire having played his ENTIRE career with ONE team. You don't see this too much out of Hall of Famers anymore.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-04-2005, 01:16 PM
He's in, best right-handed hitter of his ERA, period. Only person that can rival him is Edgar Martinez but Thomas has the defense edge (although it's not a huge one).

Palehose13
01-04-2005, 01:16 PM
Without a doubt.

One of the best hitters that the game has seen and will never be appreciated the way he should have been because of inflated stats by cheaters.

ja1022
01-04-2005, 01:18 PM
Once he hits his 500th home run, he's got to be automatic.

Plus, he will probably retire having played his ENTIRE career with ONE team. You don't see this too much out of Hall of Famers anymore.
I would say that in this modern era, 500 homers doesn't make you automatic anymore, and Frank Thomas is a future HOFer.

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 01:22 PM
List of all players who put up 100+ RBI, 100+ RS, 100+ BB and 20+ HR in their first 8 consecutive seasons:

Frank Thomas

ja1022
01-04-2005, 01:32 PM
List of all players who put up 100+ RBI, 100+ RS, 100+ BB and 20+ HR in their first 8 consecutive seasons:

Frank Thomas
Period and exclamation point.

tlebar318
01-04-2005, 01:32 PM
I used to think he was in easy BUT recent injury plagued seasons and switching to almost exclusive DH will hurt his chances--that said I love to watch the man hit a baseball! C'mon Frank and get healthy!

SSN721
01-04-2005, 01:35 PM
Yes, not even a question

nccwsfan
01-04-2005, 01:41 PM
Y-E-S!

DrCrawdad
01-04-2005, 01:41 PM
If you voted NO, here's what I'd like to see: "I voted no, and here is/are my reason(s) why I did..."

idseer
01-04-2005, 01:42 PM
does he qualify? i think so

will he make it 1st vote? unless he comes back for a couple years i can see a lot of voters not voting for him. very iffy.

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 01:45 PM
I used to think he was in easy BUT recent injury plagued seasons and switching to almost exclusive DH will hurt his chances--that said I love to watch the man hit a baseball! C'mon Frank and get healthy!In a kind of perverse turn of fate, I think the revelations of steroid use may help Thomas, because his accomplishments will be viewed more favorably. The man was, without question, the best hitter in a generation, and he did it without help. How anyone would not vote for him is beyond my understanding.

tebman
01-04-2005, 01:45 PM
List of all players who put up 100+ RBI, 100+ RS, 100+ BB and 20+ HR in their first 8 consecutive seasons:

Frank Thomas

Period and exclamation point.End of story, 30, fin, fade to black. There is no question.

- tebman

wilburaga
01-04-2005, 02:02 PM
If you voted NO, here's what I'd like to see: "I voted no, and here is/are my reason(s) why I did..."
I voted that Frank will have to do more and here are my reasons.

Yes, his first eight years were definitely HOF caliber, indeed they were historic, but in the ensuing six years I would only place one (2000) in that category.

Frank is the quintessential one dimensional player. As great a hitter as he is (was?), he's a well below average fielder and baserunner. His throwing arm ranks among the worst in major league history.

Frank has had no notable postseason success.

Frank does not have an unblemished record as a team player. Deserved or not, these impressions of him will not be helpful.

DH. Beware the baseball purists who cast ballots. They're out there.

I think Frank's first eight years may just be enough to carry him into the Hall. But I guarantee his candidacy will be a controversial one, and his enshrinement is not the foregone conclusion that many think.


W

Flight #24
01-04-2005, 02:13 PM
There's a difference between SHOULD he be a first-ballot HOFer and WILL he be. Idiot writers withpersonal biases, beliefs that guys shouldn't get in on the first try, etc may prevent Frank from going in immediately and may even delay it a couple of years. But there is no argument with any degree of rationality that supports his exclusion.

tebman
01-04-2005, 02:18 PM
I voted that Frank will have to do more and here are my reasons.

Yes, his first eight years were definitely HOF caliber, indeed they were historic, but in the ensuing six years I would only place one (2000) in that category.

Frank is the quintessential one dimensional player. As great a hitter as he is (was?), he's a well below average fielder and baserunner. His throwing arm ranks among the worst in major league history.

Frank has had no notable postseason success.

Frank does not have an unblemished record as a team player. Deserved or not, these impressions of him will not be helpful.

DH. Beware the baseball purists who cast ballots. They're out there.

I think Frank's first eight years may just be enough to carry him into the Hall. But I guarantee his candidacy will be a controversial one, and his enshrinement is not the foregone conclusion that many think.You're right about the vagaries and biases of the HOF ballot-casters, but Thomas's utterly consistent performance for those first 8 (and arguably, 10) years of his career simply can't be ignored. Sandy Koufax was consistently effective only for the last five full seasons of his career when he racked up those incredible ERA and SO numbers, and he made the cut.

I know that was then and this is now, but even allowing for that, I don't see how there could be any serious argument about Frank's HOF credentials. The guy is generally recognized as one of the best pure hitters in the game. Injuries have slowed down his production, but the same was true for Ernie Banks. He doesn't promote himself, and that's a concern, but I still think the numbers will carry the day.

- tebman

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 02:19 PM
There are 27 players with 2 or more MVP's. Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Barry Bonds and Cal Ripken are not yet eligible. All the remaining 23 are in the HOF. This is a no-brainer. There will certainly be writers who do not vote for Thomas for one excuse or another, but they're just excuses.

Mickster
01-04-2005, 02:21 PM
YES!

Next question.....

Baby Fisk
01-04-2005, 02:26 PM
"BIG HURT STORMS INTO HALL ON FIRST BALLOT"

Risk
01-04-2005, 02:42 PM
List of all players who put up 100+ RBI, 100+ RS, 100+ BB and 20+ HR in their first 8 consecutive seasons:

Frank Thomas
Thank you professor!!!:)

What he just said.

Risk

MushMouth
01-04-2005, 02:48 PM
There are 27 players with 2 or more MVP's. Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Barry Bonds and Cal Ripken are not yet eligible. All the remaining 23 are in the HOF. This is a no-brainer. There will certainly be writers who do not vote for Thomas for one excuse or another, but they're just excuses.

I'm almost positive that Dale Murphy won 2 MVP's and is not likely to ever get in. Also, didn't Dave Parker have 2 MVP's? I always have thought both these guys deserved to be in and Parker probably isn't in because of his tainted off-field shenanigans, but they do exist.

soxfan26
01-04-2005, 02:52 PM
The answer is yes.

Once he hits his 500th home run, he's got to be automatic.

Plus, he will probably retire having played his ENTIRE career with ONE team. You don't see this too much out of Hall of Famers anymore.
It would be great for Frank to finish up with the Sox, even better if he helps us to a series victory before he is done!

Mickster
01-04-2005, 02:59 PM
I'm almost positive that Dale Murphy won 2 MVP's and is not likely to ever get in. Also, didn't Dave Parker have 2 MVP's? I always have thought both these guys deserved to be in and Parker probably isn't in because of his tainted off-field shenanigans, but they do exist.Dave Parker was the MVP in '78 only
"Stale" Dale Murphy won it in '82 and '83

www.Baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/) has a hall of fame monitor, fwiw.

Frank Thomas is as follows:

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 21 (96) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 189 (46) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards): Batting - 56.5 (37) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 179.0 (49) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

veeter
01-04-2005, 03:02 PM
In a kind of perverse turn of fate, I think the revelations of steroid use may help Thomas, because his accomplishments will be viewed more favorably. The man was, without question, the best hitter in a generation, and he did it without help. How anyone would not vote for him is beyond my understand0ing.
I think Frank should have been voted in anyway but since he can't be labeled a cheater only helps him more. I also believe Frank is far from done. In the end his numbers will demand election. The Sox winning a pennant or series would make him unanimous.

wilburaga
01-04-2005, 03:08 PM
There are 27 players with 2 or more MVP's. Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Barry Bonds and Cal Ripken are not yet eligible. All the remaining 23 are in the HOF. This is a no-brainer. There will certainly be writers who do not vote for Thomas for one excuse or another, but they're just excuses.
Roger Maris won the AL MVP in 1960 and 1961 and he's not in the Hall. And there is no way Gonzo will ever get in. The two MVPs will definitely advance Frank's cause but they constitute no guarantee.


W

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 03:15 PM
I'm almost positive that Dale Murphy won 2 MVP's and is not likely to ever get in. Also, didn't Dave Parker have 2 MVP's? I always have thought both these guys deserved to be in and Parker probably isn't in because of his tainted off-field shenanigans, but they do exist.Oops. You're right. Poorly written database query. My brain is not fully engaged from a 2 wk vacation. Also Roger Maris isn't in and he has 2 MVP's

Thomas SHOULD have 3 MVP's, and I KNOW all eligible 3 MVP players are in.

eshunn2001
01-04-2005, 03:17 PM
List of all players who put up 100+ RBI, 100+ RS, 100+ BB and 20+ HR in their first 8 consecutive seasons:

Frank Thomas
Could not have said it better myself.

Hangar18
01-04-2005, 03:19 PM
Without a doubt.

One of the best hitters that the game has seen and will never be appreciated the way he should have been because of inflated stats by cheaters.
Also Big Frank never Fully Appreciated in Chicago and elsewhere because of the
Medias Conflict-of-interested lust for all things cub. Trust me, if Frank
had been a Cub (shudders), Addison St wouldve already been renamed
Thomas Street.
Look how quickly the Media can Icon-ize people who are associated
with that bogus franchise (Caray, Santo, WooWoo, Sosa, Dawson, Augie)

thepaulbowski
01-04-2005, 03:21 PM
Also Big Frank never Fully Appreciated in Chicago and elsewhere because of the
Medias Conflict-of-interested lust for all things cub. Trust me, if Frank
had been a Cub (shudders), Addison St wouldve already been renamed
Thomas Street.
Look how quickly the Media can Icon-ize people who are associated
with that bogus franchise (Caray, Santo, WooWoo, Sosa, Dawson, Augie)
Frank has always had a case of foot-in-mouth disease. A lot of the reason he has never been fully appreciated is because of this.

Hangar18
01-04-2005, 03:23 PM
for Letting an Undeserving Ryne Sandberg into the Hall Of Fame,
and unwittingly paving the way for the Much Deserving FRANK THOMAS.
I felt that Big Frank needed two more solid years before I felt good
about him being in the Hall. But after todays startling events .....
Big Frank, Congratulations ! :gulp:

Foulke29
01-04-2005, 03:29 PM
There are 27 players with 2 or more MVP's. Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Barry Bonds and Cal Ripken are not yet eligible. All the remaining 23 are in the HOF. This is a no-brainer. There will certainly be writers who do not vote for Thomas for one excuse or another, but they're just excuses.No offense Nellie, but you're wrong about the remaining 23 being in. Roger Maris won two MVP awards and is not in the Hall.

Almost forgot - Dale Murphy also has two MVP awards and is not in the Hall.

Edit - mentioning Dale Murphy

Foulke29
01-04-2005, 03:35 PM
for Letting an Undeserving Ryne Sandberg into the Hall Of Fame,
and unwittingly paving the way for the Much Deserving FRANK THOMAS.
I felt that Big Frank needed two more solid years before I felt good
about him being in the Hall. But after todays startling events .....
Big Frank, Congratulations ! :gulp:
Oh yeah, Ryne deserves to be there. He was the best second baseman of his era. Who was better?

NSSoxFan2
01-04-2005, 03:41 PM
Also Big Frank never Fully Appreciated in Chicago and elsewhere because of the
Medias Conflict-of-interested lust for all things cub. Trust me, if Frank
had been a Cub (shudders), Addison St wouldve already been renamed
Thomas Street.
Look how quickly the Media can Icon-ize people who are associated
with that bogus franchise (Caray, Santo, WooWoo, Sosa, Dawson, Augie)
Game, Match, to Hangar.

voodoochile
01-04-2005, 03:45 PM
Roger Maris won the AL MVP in 1960 and 1961 and he's not in the Hall. And there is no way Gonzo will ever get in. The two MVPs will definitely advance Frank's cause but they constitute no guarantee.


W
How many 3 time MVP's are not in the HoF?

Frank may owe Giambi another shot in the puss.

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 03:51 PM
How many 3 time MVP's are not in the HoF?

Frank may owe Giambi another shot in the puss.None. (That are eligible.)

Yogi Berra
Roy Campanella
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Mickey Mantle
Stan Musial
Mike Schmidt

hold2dibber
01-04-2005, 04:03 PM
There's is no doubt in any rational person's mind that Frank is a 1st ballot HOF'er. Yet, while I'm certain that he'll get in eventually, I think it will take him several years on the ballot before he breaks through (unless he puts together at least 2 more monsterous seasons - i.e., top-5 MVP voting - that put him back in the national spotlight, in which case he might make it on the 1st ballot).

When people say he shouldn't make it because he was a DH most of the time, I laugh. There are plenty of players in the HOF who played horrible defense and would have been DH's had the DH rule been in place when they played. Plus, Frank put up some of his best years when he was playing the field full-time.

There simply is no rational argument for not including him in the Hall. By most statistical analyses, he's one of the top 5 right handed hitters of all time. His stats are WAY better than many, many players who are in the Hall already.

konerko1413
01-04-2005, 04:05 PM
i love big frank, and i hope he makes it, but i think he has to hit 500 homers and he has to return to his previous performance level for 1 or 2 moer years to do that

RKMeibalane
01-04-2005, 04:19 PM
Y-E-S!

DrCrawdad
01-04-2005, 05:53 PM
I voted that Frank will have to do more and here are my reasons.

Yes, his first eight years were definitely HOF caliber, indeed they were historic, but in the ensuing six years I would only place one (2000) in that category.

Frank is the quintessential one dimensional player. As great a hitter as he is (was?), he's a well below average fielder and baserunner. His throwing arm ranks among the worst in major league history.

Frank has had no notable postseason success.

Frank does not have an unblemished record as a team player. Deserved or not, these impressions of him will not be helpful.

DH. Beware the baseball purists who cast ballots. They're out there.

I think Frank's first eight years may just be enough to carry him into the Hall. But I guarantee his candidacy will be a controversial one, and his enshrinement is not the foregone conclusion that many think.

W

Take a look at these methods of determining a HoF worthiness, comparing Frank's to the recently voted in Ryne Sandberg.

FRANK
http://home.mindspring.com/~dcrosby101/fthomas

SANDBERG
http://home.mindspring.com/~dcrosby101/RyneSandberg

In 3 of 4 criteria Frank, as of today, should go into the HoF. Also, Frank is dramatically ranked higher than Sandberg. Sandberg and Frank have both had two post-season appearances. Frank did well in '93 but nothing in '00. Sandberg hit well in both of his. However, did Sandberg lead his team to a World Series title? No. What about Barry Bonds? No.

IMHO Frank was fine at fielding balls hit to him and a fine at catching throws to first. Frank had little range and, as you note, had no arm. Range and arm strength are not major drawbacks for a firstbaseman.

The argument against Frank on the basis of his defensive is weak. How good of fielder was Ted Williams? A man who played alongside Williams, Piersall (sp?) has repeatedly said that Williams was a poor outfielder. If Williams was a poor outfielder, who cares? Williams was a hitter. So is Frank.

As I said in my original post, Frank has nine years where he ranks behind two legends of baseball. On that mere fact alone Frank deserves entrance in to the HoF.

I think Frank will make it, eventually. Unfortunately, there will be writers that will let their feelings for Frank and the DH stand in the way of Frank's record as a player.

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 06:17 PM
Take a look at these methods of determining a HoF worthiness, comparing Frank's to the recently voted in Ryne Sandberg.

FRANK
http://home.mindspring.com/%7Edcrosby101/fthomas

SANDBERG
http://home.mindspring.com/%7Edcrosby101/RyneSandberg

In 3 of 4 criteria Frank, as of today, should go into the HoF. Also, Frank is dramatically ranked higher than Sandberg. Sandberg and Frank have both had two post-season appearances. Frank did well in '93 but nothing in '00. Sandberg hit well in both of his. However, did Sandberg lead his team to a World Series title? No. What about Barry Bonds? No.

IMHO Frank was fine at fielding balls hit to him and a fine at catching throws to first. Frank had little range and, as you note, had no arm. Range and arm strength are not major drawbacks for a firstbaseman.

The argument against Frank on the basis of his defensive is weak. How good of fielder was Ted Williams? A man who played alongside Williams, Piersall (sp?) has repeatedly said that Williams was a poor outfielder. If Williams was a poor outfielder, who cares? Williams was a hitter. So is Frank.

As I said in my original post, Frank has nine years where he ranks behind two legends of baseball. On that mere fact alone Frank deserves entrance in to the HoF.

I think Frank will make it, eventually. Unfortunately, there will be writers that will let their feelings for Frank and the DH stand in the way of Frank's record as a player.Look at the HOF standards list. Thomas' 56.5 puts him 37th on the all-time list. NO eligible player with a score higher than 51 is NOT in the HOF.

eastchicagosoxfan
01-04-2005, 06:18 PM
Hurt is a HOF'er. He was the best hitter in baseball for 5 years in row. Maybe 7 years in row. He was having a decent season last year before he got injured. If he remains healthy, and that's a huge if, he'll bat .280, put 35 on the board, and drive in 100. This steriod story could really motivate him. He's got something to prove!!

Daver
01-04-2005, 06:30 PM
The only thing that could keep Frank out of a first ballot election is the tiresome group of senile old farts that control a good portion of the voters, old men that have nothing to do with writing, or nessacarily following the sport, but still have a vote because once you are granted the right to vote, you never lose it. Since these tiresome old windbags don't consider the DH a position, since it evolved after the end of WWII, it may stop a first ballot election.

On a related note, Harold Baines will probably be the first player with 1,500 RBI to be denied by the hall, because of the same group of rickety gasbags that control the vote.

When the voting process for the HOF gets corrected to allow only current writers, I might gain some respect for the hall, for now I have very little.

hose
01-04-2005, 06:31 PM
Frank Thomas HoF....end of story

maurice
01-04-2005, 06:41 PM
"BIG HURT STORMS INTO HALL ON FIRST BALLOT"Well, that will be the headline here, in the Southtown, and at the official site.

In the Trib and Sun-Times, OTOH . . .

DAWSON TURNED AWAY AGAIN BY IDOT HOF VOTERS
Bears Fire Offensive Coordinator
Bulls Lose Seventeenth Straight Game
Hockey Strike Finally Ends
Wolves Play for Title
Fire win thriller 1 to 0
HOF picks some DH (story page 23)

:angry:

DrCrawdad
01-04-2005, 07:28 PM
Well, that will be the headline here, in the Southtown, and at the official site.

In the Trib and Sun-Times, OTOH . . .

DAWSON TURNED AWAY AGAIN BY IDOT HOF VOTERS


Why do idiots at the IDOT (Illinois Department of Transportation) get to vote for the Hall of Fame?

:)

Lip Man 1
01-04-2005, 07:44 PM
No question he is a Hall of Famer. The question is will he get in on his first attempt?

Lip

cburns
01-04-2005, 07:48 PM
Someone needs to ask another group of fans what they about Big Frank and the HOF. We Sox fans don't have the most objective of view points on this subject, although we are right. I'd really like to hear what other fans think of Hurt.

DrCrawdad
01-04-2005, 10:46 PM
Someone needs to ask another group of fans what they about Big Frank and the HOF. We Sox fans don't have the most objective of view points on this subject, although we are right. I'd really like to hear what other fans think of Hurt.

RESULTS OF AN AUGUST 2003 POLL QUESTION, DOES FRANK THOMAS BELONG IN THE HOF:

Cubs Newsgroup (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs/browse_thread/thread/9594702474627c16/edfc7afd6bc2d947?q=frank+hall+group:alt.sports.bas eball.chicago-cubs&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3Dfrank+hall+group:alt.sports. baseball.chicago-cubs%26start%3D10%26scoring%3Dd%26num%3D10%26hl%3D en%26ie%3DUTF-8%26lr%3D%26as_drrb%3Dq%26as_qdr%3D%26as_mind%3D1% 26as_minm%3D1%26as_miny%3D1981%26as_maxd%3D4%26as_ maxm%3D1%26as_maxy%3D1981%26safe%3Doff%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#edfc7afd6bc2d947)
Nonsense - 5
Yes - 2
No - 1

Cubs MLB board
Nonsense - 10+
Yes - 5
No - 13


Following is a selection of Cub fan comments, from the Cub newsgroup, on Thomas and whether he's HoF material:

"Typical Sox Fan question. Who cares?"

"Frank who?"

"To be a little more relevant to Cub fans, I'd say that if Santo is a
deserving HOFer, then Thomas is too, (unless he really tails off for a
while), even given that he was a DH, because his hitting was that much
better than Santo over a long time period."

"If you're just a stats freak, Thomas might be a Hall Of Famer. If you know
anything about baseball, he definitely isnt."

"Thomas had seven great statistical seasons at the beginning of his career.
Since that time, he has not been a special player. He was never a great clutch player and obviously couldn't do anything but hit."

PicktoCLick72
01-05-2005, 02:08 AM
Orignially posted by DrCrawdad
Following is a selection of Cub fan comments, from the Cub newsgroup, on Thomas and whether he's HoF material:Asking Cubs fans is not a very good showing of how other fans think of Frank Thomas because (1)they treat any White Sox success as nothing and (2) feel any player on their team after one good season deserves a shot at the Hall

DrCrawdad
01-05-2005, 02:23 AM
Asking Cubs fans is not a very good showing of how other fans think of Frank Thomas because (1) they treat any White Sox success as nothing and (2) feel any player on their team after one good season deserves a shot at the Hall

Not all but most of my Cubbie fan friends love to mock and put-down Frank Thomas. When I've mentioned that Frank is deserving of the HoF this has been greeted with outright ridicule of Frank.

You're right about Cubbie fans not being a very good showing of what other fans think. On the whole, they're not very objective when it comes to anything with the White Sox. On the other hand, on this board recently there was a discussion about Sandberg that contained many reasonable, objective opinions on Sandberg. Heck, the thread even got this comment by a Cub fan blogger.

UPDATE: Even most Sox fans know what an idiot Bowman is. This thread on a Sox message board contains some well-thought-out and reasonable ideas from Sox fans on Sandberg's HoF worth.


The Cub fan poll about Frank was the only gathering of another fanbase that I could remember. I wonder what other fans think of Frank as a player and his worthiness of HoF.

ChiSox14305635
01-05-2005, 02:24 AM
When the voting process for the HOF gets corrected to allow only current writers, I might gain some respect for the hall, for now I have very little.
As long as a certain recently fired radio host doesn't have a hand in it, I think Frank's shot is as good as anyone's.

1st ballot without a shadow of a doubt.

NardiWasHere
01-05-2005, 03:23 AM
My buddy and i always argue about who was the better hitter in the 90's- Hurt or Jr. What do you guys think of this comparasion... I always tell him that griffey is the obvious choice for a more 'well rounded player' (fielding speed etc.), but what Thomas did in his first 8-9 years was just unmatchable... when jr. is hall eligible, what do you all think will happen?

johnny_mostil
01-05-2005, 07:36 AM
I used to think he was in easy BUT recent injury plagued
seasons and switching to almost exclusive DH will hurt his chances--that said I love to watch the man hit a baseball! C'mon Frank and get healthy!
Then Brooks Robinson needs to get yanked because he stunk for his last several years. Playing beyond your prime shouldn't DQ you.

Knucksie
01-05-2005, 10:22 AM
I didn't read all of the posts on this topic but I believe Frank is HOF material. Having said that, I think a few things may keep him out of the HOF.

1) He won two MVP's, but it should have been 4. He was narrowly beaten out the year before his first MVP by Cecil Fielder. Frank was robbed that year by the voters. He also was runner up to the genetically engineered Jason Giambi.

2) Playing as a DH for so many year will hurt his chances.

3) More than anything, I believe the Chicago media will hurt his chances. He has long been a favorite whipping boy of the Cubune especially. Without the support of the local media and voters, I doubt he will get in.
I think its sad because we will probably never see another Frank Thomas. Griffey had more over all skill considering his power, speed, defense and throwing ability, but Frank was THE most feared hitter in baseball for 7-8 years. Griffey never hit for the high average consistently and struck out much more than Thomas (without the stats looked up). Thomas' ave. OBP, HR, etc.
were superior to anyone in baseball over the past few decades aside from Bonds, another genetically enhanced freak.

One thing that could help Thomas is if this era gets tainted enough and all the cheaters are exposed, he may start to be more appreciated for what he really did.

Deadguy
01-05-2005, 12:14 PM
Oops. You're right. Poorly written database query. My brain is not fully engaged from a 2 wk vacation. Also Roger Maris isn't in and he has 2 MVP's

Thomas SHOULD have 3 MVP's, and I KNOW all eligible 3 MVP players are in.To put it another way, Thomas has finished in the Top 8 in the MVP voting 8 times, and has finished in the Top 3 in MVP voting 5 times. This means that the media considered Frank to be one of the three most valuable players in his league on 5 different occassions. Are there any players with those credentials not in the HOF, and who didn't go in on the first ballot? The only one close to those credentials who is not in is Jim Rice (6 Top 5 finishes, 3 Top 3 finishes, 1 MVP), but he doesn't have the career numbers that Thomas does, and he was essentially Thomas without that amazing OBP.

Also, from a sabermetric standpoint, Thomas had more Win Shares than any other AL player in the 90s (even more than Griffey), and finished 3rd in all of baseball behind Barry Bonds and Craig Biggio. This proves a certain amount of consistency and the fact that his deficiencies in the field did not hurt his overall value as a player by a significant amount.

And the person who voted "No" should be banned from the site :wink:

ja1022
01-05-2005, 12:40 PM
The whole DH issue will be addressed in five years when Edgar Martinez is eligible. His vote will serve as a good indicator of what kind of impact being a full time DH has on your HOF worthiness. (Paul Molitor became, for all intents and purposes, a full time DH at 34.)

hold2dibber
01-05-2005, 01:01 PM
Here's a comparison of 5 players' 162-game averages over the course of their respective careers:

Player A: 29 2Bs, 22 HRs, 96 RBIs, .279 avg, .341 OBP, .463 SLG, 4 top-10 MVP
Player B: 30 2Bs, 34 HR, 105 RBIs, .294 avg, .389 OBP, .537 SLG, 10 top-10 MVP
Player C: 30 2Bs, 27 HRs, 103 RBIs, .287 avg, .359 OBP, .476 SLG, 8 top-10 MVP
Player D: 44 2Bs, 38 HRs, 148 RBIs, .313 avg, .412 OBP, .605 SLG, 6 top-10 MVP
Player E: 28 2Bs, 23 HRs, 90 RBIs, .297 avg, .376 OBP, .480 SLG, 9 top-10 MVP
Player F: 37 2Bs, 37 HRs, 121 RBIs, .308 avg, .429 OBP, .567 SLG, 8 top-10 MVP

All of these players except one is already in the HOF. They are:






A - Tony Perez
B - Frank Robinson
C - Eddie Murray
D - Hank Greenberg
E - Al Kaline
F - Frank Thomas

Clearly, Frank has been superior to probably every one of these guys except Greenberg. Frank may not yet have the longevity of some of these guys, but if his career ended today, he'd be a no-brainer for the Hall. End of story.

DrCrawdad
01-05-2005, 01:03 PM
And the person who voted "No" should be banned from the site :wink:

HE GONE!

No doubt the :dtroll: signed up simply to vote "NO."

santo=dorf
01-05-2005, 01:06 PM
And the person who voted "No" should be banned from the site :wink:
They already were after one post! :o:

voodoochile
01-05-2005, 02:07 PM
And the person who voted "No" should be banned from the site :wink:
Actually, that person was a spammer. I told them to knock it off and they became offended and asked me to delete their account. I was happy to oblige, even more so since it is obvious they don't know a damned thing about baseball...

Baby Fisk
01-05-2005, 02:10 PM
Actually, that person was a spammer. I told them to knock it off and they became offended and asked me to delete their account. I was happy to oblige, even more so since it is obvious they don't know a damned thing about baseball...WSI's good name is preserved for another day...

:deadtrolls

Foulke29
01-05-2005, 04:09 PM
I didn't read all of the posts on this topic but I believe Frank is HOF material. Having said that, I think a few things may keep him out of the HOF.

1) He won two MVP's, but it should have been 4. He was narrowly beaten out the year before his first MVP by Cecil Fielder. Frank was robbed that year by the voters. He also was runner up to the genetically engineered Jason Giambi.


Fielder never won an MVP.

Fielder lost to Rickey Henderson and Ripken in '90 and '91. Eckersley won in '92. I haven't forgotten that, because the press made a big deal out of a quote in which Frank said he didn't think pitchers should win the MVP. '92 is when Big Frank finished 8th, and IMHO I don't slight Eck for winning an MVP. He was 7-1 with an ERA under 2 and 51 saves. AND, he'd just put up two previous years of a WHIP of .61.

konerko1413
01-25-2005, 08:07 PM
if frank thomas retired right now, what stats or rankings does he have that make u think he should be in the hall of fame?
i like him being the only player to have 100 walks, rbi's, and runs in 7 consecutive seasons

BRDSR
01-25-2005, 08:10 PM
i like him being the only player to have 100 walks, rbi's, and runs

...for his first 8 or 9 consecutive seasons. I would say that one of Thomas' best stats is his OBP. I don't know what his career OBP is but I would guess it has to be higher than .400, which is pretty impressive. The OBP is beginning to become in vogue, and I think it will be a real mitigating factor when his time comes.

Whitesox029
01-25-2005, 08:14 PM
if frank thomas retired right now, what stats or rankings does he have that make u think he should be in the hall of fame?
i like him being the only player to have 100 walks, rbi's, and runs in 7 consecutive seasons
Just his status as the greatest hitter in Sox franchise history should qualify him. His totals either have surpassed or are close to surpassing most of our offensive category records. If the guys who used to hold them are in the hall then why shouldn't Frank?

soxfan26
01-25-2005, 08:17 PM
Once again. YES!

Here is some background reading for you...

Frank Thomas, is he worthy of the HoF? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43604&highlight=Thomas+Hall+Fame)

Thomas is HOF (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38738&highlight=Thomas+Hall+Fame)

Takatsufan
01-25-2005, 08:18 PM
Once he hits 500+ HRs, there is no doubt in my mind.

zach074
01-25-2005, 08:41 PM
if frank thomas retired right now, what stats or rankings does he have that make u think he should be in the hall of fame?
i like him being the only player to have 100 walks, rbi's, and runs in 7 consecutive seasons

Maybe if he has a couple more good years.

MRKARNO
01-25-2005, 08:43 PM
No. Doubt.

His ability to get on base is one of the best all-time (including the bad years) for a right-handed hitter. 500+ likely homers and a good career average and 2 MVPs (I think) wont "hurt" his case. All of the people who vote for the HOF know this and he wont be snubbed.

eastchicagosoxfan
01-25-2005, 08:52 PM
Thomas's first seven full seasons were as good as anyone had ever put up in the history of the game. He wasn't jiuced either. He's had some good seaons since then, in 2000, and 2003. Injuries have obviously taken their toll, but this guy is a Hall of Famer, no doubt about it. I predict Hurt will have a great season in 2004, the year the clean players strike back.

batmanZoSo
01-25-2005, 08:56 PM
Anyone with even the slightest clue about baseball should know that Frank is a Hall of Famer. He is, without a doubt, one of the top 20 hitters who ever played the game--among righties, top 5. And all the stats in the world back that up.

It's only up to the idiot writers to realize this.

SpammySosa
01-25-2005, 09:21 PM
Thomas's first seven full seasons were as good as anyone had ever put up in the history of the game. He wasn't jiuced either. He's had some good seaons since then, in 2000, and 2003. Injuries have obviously taken their toll, but this guy is a Hall of Famer, no doubt about it. I predict Hurt will have a great season in 2004, the year the clean players strike back.

You,Doc and Marty going to rehab Frank and take him back to 2004? Otherwise I think you're out of luck.

DrCrawdad
01-25-2005, 10:11 PM
Note on the two who voted "NO." One is banned the other has no posts.

:dtroll:

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-26-2005, 12:34 PM
Once he hits his 500th home run, he's got to be automatic.

Plus, he will probably retire having played his ENTIRE career with ONE team. You don't see this too much out of Hall of Famers anymore.

I was gonna post the same thing, but you beat me to it. Glad it's up there though. I think he's in already, just based on his lifetime average. Would LOVE to see him go in with a World Series ring though to boot, AND in the same uniform.

:supernana:

Hangar18
01-26-2005, 12:42 PM
I wouldve liked to see ONE more solid season out of Big Frank.
But now that the King of the 358 foot homerun, Ryne "Bozo Basket"
Sandberg got let in, Frank is a Lock. I'll definitely make the
Trip to Cooperstown for the ceremony

tacosalbarojas
01-26-2005, 01:09 PM
Roger Maris won the AL MVP in 1960 and 1961 and he's not in the Hall. And there is no way Gonzo will ever get in. The two MVPs will definitely advance Frank's cause but they constitute no guarantee.


W Wilbur, my man - one thing that Frank has on his side that Rodg definitely does not is that Frank is the best hitter in his franchise's 100 year history. It's not even close. I also agree with the poster that said the steriod issue is going to have a preversely positive effect on the writers' judgement of Frank's career. I also think if Jim Rice can get in - I think he's got a couple of years of eligibility left - it will help Frank's cause enormously. Jayson Stark wrote an article on his changing vote for Rice in a recent issue of Baseball America. Very similar situations.

tacosalbarojas
01-26-2005, 01:15 PM
None. (That are eligible.)

Yogi Berra
Roy Campanella
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Mickey Mantle
Stan Musial
Mike Schmidt MLB should strip Giambi of his 2000 MVP award and give it to the guy who finished second in the voting. When Selig goes away (no way he'd do anything that controversial) we need to start a letter writing campaign.

Flight #24
01-26-2005, 01:37 PM
MLB should strip Giambi of his 2000 MVP award and give it to the guy who finished second in the voting. When Selig goes away (no way he'd do anything that controversial) we need to start a letter writing campaign.

And he should write a check to Frank for the difference between what his contract would have been absent the DSC and what he's ended up getting paid.

Hangar18
01-26-2005, 01:37 PM
MLB should strip Giambi of his 2000 MVP award and give it to the guy who finished second in the voting. When Selig goes away (no way he'd do anything that controversial) we need to start a letter writing campaign.


Ever since we found out Giambi cheated in 2000, I all but said to myself
Frank Thomas is the REAL winner of the AL MVP Award. I'll take a banner
to the games once in a while to announce that fact ........

wilburaga
01-26-2005, 02:37 PM
Wilbur, my man - one thing that Frank has on his side that Rodg definitely does not is that Frank is the best hitter in his franchise's 100 year history. It's not even close. I also agree with the poster that said the steriod issue is going to have a preversely positive effect on the writers' judgement of Frank's career. I also think if Jim Rice can get in - I think he's got a couple of years of eligibility left - it will help Frank's cause enormously. Jayson Stark wrote an article on his changing vote for Rice in a recent issue of Baseball America. Very similar situations.

Tacosal:

If Frank were to retire right now I think the odds are he'll get in. Any decent numbers he puts up from here on will obviously help his cause. But if he suffers through a few nondescript, injury plagued years now I think it could fatally impact his candidacy.

I happened to be at Yankee Stadium on April 13, 1978, the day Roger Maris returned to Yankee Stadium after a decade long absence. The occasion was the Yankee home opener, against the successors to the South Side Hit men. When I saw that Junior Moore was leading off for the Sox at DH, I was pretty certain that 1978 was not going to be as much fun as 1977. Reggie hit a three run homer in the first off Wilbur, and that would be the only runs the Yanks scored. Sadly, Guidry made it hold up, a 3-2 Sox loss.

As for Maris, his reception that day was extremely warm. His relations with the press were always strained. But he was a complete player, an outstanding right fielder and baserunner. I think the Veterans Committee will eventually let him in the HOF, and I have no problem with it.


W

starboy0
01-26-2005, 03:02 PM
As of today only 5 players in history have hit more home runs and have a higher batting average than Frank.

Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jimmy Foxx, Ted Williams, and Stan Musial.

Puts Frank in pretty exclusive company so I would say yes to the HOF!

tacosalbarojas
01-26-2005, 03:04 PM
And he should write a check to Frank for the difference between what his contract would have been absent the DSC and what he's ended up getting paid. True dat!

tacosalbarojas
01-26-2005, 03:08 PM
Tacosal:

When I saw that Junior Moore was leading off for the Sox at DH, I was pretty certain that 1978 was not going to be as much fun as 1977. Reggie hit a three run homer in the first off Wilbur, and that would be the only runs the Yanks scored. Sadly, Guidry made it hold up, a 3-2 Sox loss.


W Wilbur - a Junior Moore mention! I knew there was a reason to come in today!

Duly noted on Maris. My only point was that I think Frank might benefit from being the standout hitter of his organization, one that's been around for 100 years. On second thought, maybe no one will notice.

By the way - on my user name...I realized when I created it I screwed up - I should have put a dash in between the 'al' part of it. It should be thought of as "tacos al barojas"...sort of like an alternative dish to "tacos al pastor", a great Mexican treat if ever there was one.

SOXSINCE'70
01-26-2005, 03:37 PM
He should make it on his numbers between
'91 and '97 alone. He also won 2 MVP awards
in that time frame.Yes!!

Infallible
01-26-2005, 04:53 PM
I voted no for the reasons already given, he's been too injury prone for the past half decade and his role has been relegated almost exclusively to the DH. If Edgar gets in, so does Frank. But for argument sake I'd have to say Edgar doesn't get in either. Big Frank is good no doubt, but IMHO the HoF is for the very best of the best and should be more exclusive than what it is. Flame suit on.

voodoochile
01-26-2005, 04:57 PM
I voted no for the reasons already given, he's been too injury prone for the past half decade and his roll has been relegated almost exclusively to the DH. If Edgar gets in, so does Frank. But for argument sake I'd have to say Edgar doesn't get in either. Big Frank is good no doubt, but IMHO the HoF is for the very best of the best and should be more exclusive than what it is. Flame suit on.

So the guy with the 10th best OBP in history isn't one of the best of the best?

So the guy with a career OPS of close to 1.0 isn't among the best of the best?

So the guy with arbuably the best 8 year run in the history of the game isn't among the best of the best?

So the guy who won 2 MVPs and but for the clear and the cream would have won a third isn't among the best of the best? You do know that every eligible person who won 3 MVPs is currently already inducted don't you?

Sheesh... You don't need a flame suit, you need a pair of glasses...:rolleyes:

ma-gaga
01-26-2005, 05:09 PM
Yes. yesyesyes...

Ol' No. 2
01-26-2005, 05:11 PM
I voted no for the reasons already given, he's been too injury prone for the past half decade and his role has been relegated almost exclusively to the DH. If Edgar gets in, so does Frank. But for argument sake I'd have to say Edgar doesn't get in either. Big Frank is good no doubt, but IMHO the HoF is for the very best of the best and should be more exclusive than what it is. Flame suit on.You need to change your name.:D:

mweflen
01-26-2005, 05:27 PM
A few more .270/30/90 seasons (pushing him over 500 dingers and keeping his career BA above .300) will make him a mortal lock.

If he continues to play injured and doesn't pass 500, he will not be a first ballot guy, but will make it eventually. His early numbers were just too dominating, and a lot of reassessment will go on when steroid-era players become eligible - Frank will look pretty squeaky clean next to some of them.

Infallible
01-26-2005, 05:45 PM
So the guy with the 10th best OBP in history isn't one of the best of the best?

So the guy with a career OPS of close to 1.0 isn't among the best of the best?

So the guy with arbuably the best 8 year run in the history of the game isn't among the best of the best?

So the guy who won 2 MVPs and but for the clear and the cream would have won a third isn't among the best of the best? You do know that every eligible person who won 3 MVPs is currently already inducted don't you?

Sheesh... You don't need a flame suit, you need a pair of glasses...:rolleyes:

Yep thats exactly what I needed; to be treated in a condenscending manner by someone who obviously has the ability to discuss differences of opinion in the manner of a three year old.:rolleyes: THE PROBLEM IS HE IS A DH. 972 games at 1b out of 1925 games played......and counting....

Edgar Martinez: 2055 total games played 1105 in the field career avg .312 obp's .418 ops .933 and no HoF for him either IN MY OPINION. The Hall of Fame is for baseball players who play the positions year in year out. Franks stats look good for his early perfomaces yes that is true, but how many years ago would he have been gone if he had to play a position in all those games?

DrCrawdad
01-26-2005, 06:39 PM
Yep thats exactly what I needed; to be treated in a condenscending manner by someone who obviously has the ability to discuss differences of opinion in the manner of a three year old.:rolleyes: THE PROBLEM IS HE IS A DH. 972 games at 1b out of 1925 games played......and counting....

Edgar Martinez: 2055 total games played 1105 in the field career avg .312 obp's .418 ops .933 and no HoF for him either IN MY OPINION. The Hall of Fame is for baseball players who play the positions year in year out. Franks stats look good for his early perfomaces yes that is true, but how many years ago would he have been gone if he had to play a position in all those games?

What's the issue with what Voodoo posted? What Voodoo posted are reasonable points on Frank's career.

The DH has been in the AL for what 30 years now. Except for 1991, 1990-1997 Frank's Ruthian years Frank played firstbase. Anyway, how is an argument against him based on his DH'ing the last 7 years reasonable or valid? The DH is legitimate. You may not like it but it's been in MLB for over 30 years and it's not going anywhere. Deal with it.

Plus, Babe Ruth was he voted in on the basis of his fine defense? What about Sosa, he'll no doubt go right into the HoF should he be held up because he's been a lousy outfielder for the last 7 years or so?

Frank Thomas spent about 7 years at first base. The Sox moving Frank to DH was reasonable. However, even after 1997 almost every NL team would have taken Frank Thomas at first because of his abilities as a hitter.

Of course you were free to choose YES, NO or NOT YET. However your choice of NO puts you in the company of trolls. In view of that and the fact that the only people I've met who've said abolutely NO about Frank were Cubbie fans, I have to ask you...

ARE YOU A CUB FAN?

voodoochile
01-26-2005, 06:56 PM
Yep thats exactly what I needed; to be treated in a condenscending manner by someone who obviously has the ability to discuss differences of opinion in the manner of a three year old.:rolleyes: THE PROBLEM IS HE IS A DH. 972 games at 1b out of 1925 games played......and counting....

Edgar Martinez: 2055 total games played 1105 in the field career avg .312 obp's .418 ops .933 and no HoF for him either IN MY OPINION. The Hall of Fame is for baseball players who play the positions year in year out. Franks stats look good for his early perfomaces yes that is true, but how many years ago would he have been gone if he had to play a position in all those games?

Sorry, I was not attempting to talk down to you. I was trying to illuminate the many different ways, IMO Frank qualifies for the HOF.

Frank's numbers are MUCH better than Martinez on many levels, including almost 70 points of OPS.

I do get tired of the DH argument too. How many 1B sluggers have gotten into the HOF because of their defensive ability. This is the exact crap argument that gave the MVP to Giambi in 2000 something that now looks very suspect in light of the steroid stuff coming out. It's time to put down the bias. The DH is a position, just not a defensive position. Should AL pitchers have their stats down graded because they don't bat?

Allow me to rephrase.

Frank is top 10 in career OBP all time.

His OPS is close to 1.000 - inarguably a cutoff for offensive genius and a number that defines HOF ability - every eligible player with a career OPS of 1.0 or higher is currently in the HOF

Frank has 2 MVP awards there are scant few eligible double MVP winners who are not in the HOF. Frank came within steroid induced greatness and the mitt of a 1B from winning number three. Every triple MVP winner who is elgible is in the HOF.

A case can be made that Frank not only had the greatest 8 year run in history, but is the greatest RH hitter in history.

All of that tells me he is a HOF player.

Hope the rephrasing helps you see the point and not get stuck on the way it was written.

idseer
01-26-2005, 09:18 PM
A case can be made that Frank not only had the greatest 8 year run in history, but is the greatest RH hitter in history.

don't take this wrong, as i believe frank is a hof'er too.
however, in rebuttle to this particular claim, i have to say ...... not much of one.

that 8 years was great without a doubt. but i believe you can find a good number of players with a better 8 straight years.
they may not all contain 100 bb's, 100 rbi's etc., but totalled up i believe frank's 8 years were not nearly the best.

and i say this admitting i haven't checked yet. :smile:


edit: can i assume you mean '91 through '98?

Ol' No. 2
01-26-2005, 09:36 PM
don't take this wrong, as i believe frank is a hof'er too.
however, in rebuttle to this particular claim, i have to say ...... not much of one.

that 8 years was great without a doubt. but i believe you can find a good number of players with a better 8 straight years.
they may not all contain 100 bb's, 100 rbi's etc., but totalled up i believe frank's 8 years were not nearly the best.

and i say this admitting i haven't checked yet. :smile:


edit: can i assume you mean '91 through '98?I did check his numbers for his first 8 years, and posted it earlier in this thread. Recap:

List of all players who put up 100+ RBI, 100+ RS, 100+ BB and 20+ HR in their first 8 consecutive seasons:

Frank ThomasNot Babe Ruth. Not Joe DiMaggio. Not Ted Williams (even if you don't count his wartime service years). NOBODY ELSE IN BASEBALL HISTORY. If you do something that significant that NOBODY ELSE IN BASEBALL HISTORY has ever done, isn't that pretty much what the HOF is supposed to be about?

idseer
01-26-2005, 09:56 PM
I did check his numbers for his first 8 years, and posted it earlier in this thread. Recap:

Not Babe Ruth. Not Joe DiMaggio. Not Ted Williams (even if you don't count his wartime service years). NOBODY ELSE IN BASEBALL HISTORY. If you do something that significant that NOBODY ELSE IN BASEBALL HISTORY has ever done, isn't that pretty much what the HOF is supposed to be about?

you miss my point i think.

the fact he reached what are, after all, arbitrary figures (100r, 100, rbi, 100 bb, 30 hr's) are interesting ... but far from the best consecutive 8 years other players have put up.

for example (8 consecutive years):

'91 - '98 thomas 279hr's, 932rbi's, 855runs

'56 - '63 h.aaron 302hr's, 946rbi's, 914runs
'27 - '34 l.gehrig 311hr's, 1256 rbi's, 1125runs
'26 - '33 b. ruth 377hr's, 1162rbi's, 1097runs
'39 - '49 williams 265hr's, 1038rbi's, 1082runs

now it isn't lost on me who i am comparing him to. as i said, i think he's a hof'er.
having said that i'd like to point out that all these other players i've mentioned did all these things TWICE ..... almost. i could have taken a completely different 8 consecutive years for these guys and still beaten thomas in some catagories ... which is what lends credence to the fact thomas doesn't have those overall gaudy numbers by any means.
he had a great 8 years, but then ... except for one more year .... that was it!

once again, i was only taking issue with voodoo's remarks about it being arguably the greatest 8 year stretch in history ........ cause it ISN'T!

Nellie_Fox
01-27-2005, 12:31 AM
Infallible, ask yourself this question: If Frank had played his entire career at first, would you be looking at his defensive numbers to decide whether he belongs in the hall? Of course not. I can't think of a single firstbaseman who is in the HOF because of defensive ability.

If Frank had played his whole career at first, he'd be a no-brainer HOF'er, regardless of what his defense was like. So, why would you insist that he have played defense? The DH is a position, like it or not. Judge the man for what he did in the position he was assigned.

hose
01-27-2005, 06:07 AM
Frank makes the HoF with ease.

kraut83
01-27-2005, 07:52 AM
[QUOTE=mweflen]A few more .270/30/90 seasons (pushing him over 500 dingers and keeping his career BA above .300) will make him a mortal lock. QUOTE]

Exactly how I feel. If he would retire today, I think he's in, but 2 or 3 more seasons like that, plus a playoff appearance or two for more exposure will only help. Frank is one of the most selective & dangerous hitters I've ever seen & without a doubt, deserves the HOF.

voodoochile
01-27-2005, 08:05 AM
you miss my point i think.

the fact he reached what are, after all, arbitrary figures (100r, 100, rbi, 100 bb, 30 hr's) are interesting ... but far from the best consecutive 8 years other players have put up.

for example (8 consecutive years):

'91 - '98 thomas 279hr's, 932rbi's, 855runs

'56 - '63 h.aaron 302hr's, 946rbi's, 914runs
'27 - '34 l.gehrig 311hr's, 1256 rbi's, 1125runs
'26 - '33 b. ruth 377hr's, 1162rbi's, 1097runs
'39 - '49 williams 265hr's, 1038rbi's, 1082runs

now it isn't lost on me who i am comparing him to. as i said, i think he's a hof'er.
having said that i'd like to point out that all these other players i've mentioned did all these things TWICE ..... almost. i could have taken a completely different 8 consecutive years for these guys and still beaten thomas in some catagories ... which is what lends credence to the fact thomas doesn't have those overall gaudy numbers by any means.
he had a great 8 years, but then ... except for one more year .... that was it!

once again, i was only taking issue with voodoo's remarks about it being arguably the greatest 8 year stretch in history ........ cause it ISN'T!

Sure it is... we're arguing over it aren't we? :wink:

No problems here and you make a very persuasive case that that single point is false. OTOH, as you yourself so rightly point out, it doesn't make Frank less of a HOF candidate. If anything, it strenghtens the case because the players he is being compared to are all in the HOF and no one would question their credentials.

I cede the point. Perhaps I should have amended my statement to say the best FIRST 8 years of his career in history. It's a damned shame he has struggled with the injuries. Hopefully he comes back strong next year. Time will tell.

idseer
01-27-2005, 08:38 AM
Sure it is... we're arguing over it aren't we? :wink:

No problems here and you make a very persuasive case that that single point is false. OTOH, as you yourself so rightly point out, it doesn't make Frank less of a HOF candidate. If anything, it strenghtens the case because the players he is being compared to are all in the HOF and no one would question their credentials.

I cede the point. Perhaps I should have amended my statement to say the best FIRST 8 years of his career in history. It's a damned shame he has struggled with the injuries. Hopefully he comes back strong next year. Time will tell.

actually ted's numbers ARE his first 8 years.
and just by way of discussing ted. do you know if you took that first 8 years and averaged his stats then added that 3 years back in that he missed due to time in the service (all within that 11 year period) his lifetime totals would be 621 hr's, 2229 rbi's (league record in either league) and 2204 runs?
and that's NOT counting the 2 years he missed during the korean war!!!

this is why ted williams was the greatest hitter who ever lived, imo!

Church Turtle
01-27-2005, 09:54 AM
I think the numbers say yes. I won't argue that with you. But, what about the writers that do the voting. I think that's his potential problem. If it occurs away from one of the coasts a player best have a World Series under his belt or they (the writers) may never notice. There are exceptions, obviously.
He deserves it, and hopefuly he'll have a great season this year!

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 10:21 AM
Infallible, ask yourself this question: If Frank had played his entire career at first, would you be looking at his defensive numbers to decide whether he belongs in the hall? Of course not. I can't think of a single firstbaseman who is in the HOF because of defensive ability.

If Frank had played his whole career at first, he'd be a no-brainer HOF'er, regardless of what his defense was like. So, why would you insist that he have played defense? The DH is a position, like it or not. Judge the man for what he did in the position he was assigned.If you're comparing two players with similar numbers but one was a gold glove fielder and one was a DH, then I would agree that the guy who also played in the field should get the not. But we're not talking about the best hitting second baseman or the best DH. We're talking about a guy who was the most dominant hitter of his era. Any sportswriter who doesn't vote for Thomas on the first ballot simply because he was a DH for the last half of his career is a moron.

TommyJohn
01-27-2005, 10:38 AM
If you're comparing two players with similar numbers but one was a gold glove fielder and one was a DH, then I would agree that the guy who also played in the field should get the not. But we're not talking about the best hitting second baseman or the best DH. We're talking about a guy who was the most dominant hitter of his era. Any sportswriter who doesn't vote for Thomas on the first ballot simply because he was a DH for the last half of his career is a moron.

The words "moron" and "sportswriter" are practically synonyms. And let's not
forget that two of them campaigned against Thomas getting the MVP in 2000,
feeling that the blown-up Giambi was more worthy. (Or that Thomas, in dis-
liking the media, particularly one Chicago integrity-free scribe, was simply
unworthy.)

Thomas will have a very hard time making the Hall. I say he doesn't get in.
That is different than saying he isn't worthy, of course I think he is. I'm
just saying that he won't get in.

Ol' No. 2
01-27-2005, 10:49 AM
The words "moron" and "sportswriter" are practically synonyms. And let's not
forget that two of them campaigned against Thomas getting the MVP in 2000,
feeling that the blown-up Giambi was more worthy. (Or that Thomas, in dis-
liking the media, particularly one Chicago integrity-free scribe, was simply
unworthy.)

Thomas will have a very hard time making the Hall. I say he doesn't get in.
That is different than saying he isn't worthy, of course I think he is. I'm
just saying that he won't get in.There may, indeed, be a few tools who vote against him. But his qualifications are so overwhelming, that I still predict a first-ballot election. Look at the Baseball-reference.com HOF standards. Thomas is a 56. That puts him even with Luke Appling and Harry Heilmann and above Mike Schmidt (55), Reggie Jackson (53) and Carlton Fisk (49). NO eligible player higher than 51 is not in the HOF, and quite a few well down into the 40's and even 30's are in.

Deadguy
01-27-2005, 11:20 AM
Thomas will have a very hard time making the Hall. I say he doesn't get in.
That is different than saying he isn't worthy, of course I think he is. I'm
just saying that he won't get in.

There seems to be a rather varied discrepancy between the way the national media treats and views Frank, as opposed to the way the local media treats Frank. Questioned in an interview about this, Thomas seemed to agree with that sentiment. Scott Merkin has mentioned that Thomas is one of his favorite athletes to interact with. I'm sure that there is a large group in the media that has a tremendous amount of respect for Thomas, and will vote him in. A few local blow hards who have a vendetta with Thomas aren't going to be enough to keep Thomas out for good.

This is the same guy who has been voted by the media as one of the 8 most valuable players in the league on 8 seperate occasions, as well the most valuable twice.

SOXFAN82
01-27-2005, 11:35 AM
I do think thomas is going to get in. Thomas is not one of those guys that have to be flashy and strut after a homer or kiss to the camera. He is not a great guy form the media but then again he isn't there enemy. I think he will get to 500 and at least get to 3,000 hits I hope. I also think he should be able to get 2,000 RIB'S and I'm hoping to see him in his 6th ALL-STAR game before he retires.
:bandance:
Brian

BigHurt359300
01-30-2005, 12:11 PM
Um.......duh

uribeisgod5
01-30-2005, 01:13 PM
the big hurt is in, no doubt

mccoydp
01-30-2005, 02:29 PM
If there is any justice in the world, yes, Frank should make it.

500 HRs, 3000 hits, and a trip to the World Series would ease his entry.

However, be ever mindful of the sports media's bias against the White Sox. Ever try to watch Baseball Tonight for White Sox highlights? Better be ready to wait until 45 minutes into the show for 30 seconds of recap.

balke
01-30-2005, 04:50 PM
This will always be a big debate. It is innevitable though, whenever you are talking about the greatest eye in the game, someone is going to throw his name in the mix. Best all around hitter, you have to have him in that conversation.

The trick is "He's just a DH, blah blah blah. The DH is a position now whether people like it or not. IF the positioin didn't exist, he'd be playing 1st base still. I don't care if Griffey or him never play another game, they are simply incredible ballplayers with unfortunate injury plagued careers.

Infallible
01-30-2005, 06:52 PM
ARE YOU A CUB FAN?

I hope you're kidding with this comment, as I'd rather commit suicide than watch the sCrubs win a world series. As for my comments in regards to Voodochile he himself acknowleged it could be construed in a condencending manner. Look I've got an opinion like anyone else. No one has to agree with my comments and no where have I been exceptionally calous with my remarks. Its just my opinion that NO DH should get into the HoF. I have at no time perpetrated any posts here that could be considered trollish in manner. If my OWN feeling on the HoF and Frank Thomas has this much bearing on my status here, then maybe I shouldn't post anymore. I thought that joining this site I could present my own opinions and discuss them in rational manner. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to the be the case......I'll be looking forward to Brewer game in Milwaukee....who knows, maybe I'll go into to work that day just so I can write out tickets......

DrCrawdad
01-30-2005, 07:07 PM
I hope you're kidding with this comment, as I'd rather commit suicide than watch the sCrubs win a world series. As for my comments in regards to Voodochile he himself acknowleged it could be construed in a condencending manner. Look I've got an opinion like anyone else. No one has to agree with my comments and no where have I been exceptionally calous with my remarks. Its just my opinion that NO DH should get into the HoF. I have at no time perpetrated any posts here that could be considered trollish in manner. If my OWN feeling on the HoF and Frank Thomas has this much bearing on my status here, then maybe I shouldn't post anymore. I thought that joining this site I could present my own opinions and discuss them in rational manner. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to the be the case......I'll be looking forward to Brewer game in Milwaukee....who knows, maybe I'll go into to work that day just so I can write out tickets......

I didn't mean it as an attack, although I have to admit that when I've been asked if I'm a Cub fan I get a bit irritated. It wouldn't have been a problem for me if you were. Many of my close friend are Cub fans...

No one has to sign a loyalty oath to the Sox to post here. And I surely didn't mean to imply your remarks were trollish. And differing opinions are welcome. In fact, Lip posts here quite a bit. I disagree with him often and I'll kid him about his negativity but I'm not out to chase him away. In fact whenever I see an article by Lip, I read it as well as his posts. I'm not trying to chase you away either. I just was curious where you were coming from.

voodoochile
01-30-2005, 07:22 PM
I hope you're kidding with this comment, as I'd rather commit suicide than watch the sCrubs win a world series. As for my comments in regards to Voodochile he himself acknowleged it could be construed in a condencending manner. Look I've got an opinion like anyone else. No one has to agree with my comments and no where have I been exceptionally calous with my remarks. Its just my opinion that NO DH should get into the HoF. I have at no time perpetrated any posts here that could be considered trollish in manner. If my OWN feeling on the HoF and Frank Thomas has this much bearing on my status here, then maybe I shouldn't post anymore. I thought that joining this site I could present my own opinions and discuss them in rational manner. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to the be the case......I'll be looking forward to Brewer game in Milwaukee....who knows, maybe I'll go into to work that day just so I can write out tickets......

I understand it is just your opinion. I would like an answer to the question I asked about AL pitchers. Should they be kept out of the HOF because they don't bat?

Do you ever think you'll change your mind about DH's?

What percentage of a players career is acceptable for them to DH and still be eligible?

I'm just curious...

LongLiveFisk
01-30-2005, 07:40 PM
Frank makes the HoF with ease.

I agree that he SHOULD. But only time will tell. Another couple of seasons of strong numbers and no injuries would help a hell of a lot, though.

And by the way...
:tomatoaward

chisox77
01-30-2005, 09:47 PM
Big Hurt - YES!!!!!!!!

He should be writing his induction speech right now, without a doubt.

ma_deuce
01-31-2005, 10:59 AM
http://www.thecinemalaser.com/dvd2/reviews/images/waynes-world-dvd-image-01.jpg
"We're not worthy! We're not worthy!"

:hurt

"...but I am."

jabrch
01-31-2005, 11:26 AM
Saying that a DH should never make the HOF ignores the fact that if the DH wasn't a position, Frank would still have played all these years anyhow. He wouldn't have been a good defensive 1B, but he clearly would still have had a job. It's not like the DH has kept Frank in baseball. Frank should be in the HOF - no doubt. If he's not a First Ballot guy, I don't care. But he will make it.

jvoboogie
02-02-2005, 02:09 PM
It amazes me that anybody would ask a cub fan anything concerning baseball first and about the Sox second. I don't even talk baseball with these nitwits because these conversations always end with me getting an evil stare as if I had insulted their mother. Fact remains if Frank Thomas had played for an east coast team (or any team other than the Sox ) he would be a first ballot HOFer. The season he has this year and until he retires will go a long way toward validating his credentials but there is no doubt if he played elswhere we wouldn't even be having this conversation. By the way, first time poster, long time reader.

Church Turtle
02-02-2005, 03:43 PM
Fact remains if Frank Thomas had played for an east coast team (or any team other than the Sox ) he would be a first ballot HOFer. The season he has this year and until he retires will go a long way toward validating his credentials but there is no doubt if he played elswhere we wouldn't even be having this conversation. By the way, first time poster, long time reader.
AMEN Brother. (Nice first post?) If Frank had been in Boston or New York would we even be having this conversation?

Bisco Stu
02-03-2005, 01:09 AM
Obvious HOF'er.

Haven't read the thread, sorry if I'm repeating others.
1. He's the Chisox greatest player (certainly offensive player) in franchise history. If he's not in, how do you justify the inclusion of any other White Sox players?

2. He was DOMINANT in the 90's, far more feared than Barry Bonds was in that decade (Hell, Joey Belle was more feared than Barry in those days). Dominance is a key criteria for HOF induction.

3. He won 2 MVP's and would have 3 if not for a great month by Juiced-up Giambi. Frank did it with Auburn steel, not juice.

HebrewHammer
02-03-2005, 08:19 AM
Whether he hits 500 or not, he gets in.

BigFrankRetard
02-05-2005, 02:38 PM
I understand it is just your opinion. I would like an answer to the question I asked about AL pitchers. Should they be kept out of the HOF because they don't bat?

Do you ever think you'll change your mind about DH's?

What percentage of a players career is acceptable for them to DH and still be eligible?

I'm just curious...

Agreed. Someone has to play the DH position in the AL, so why should they not qualify for Cooperstown?

BigFrankRetard
02-05-2005, 02:44 PM
Given Frank's age and recent injury problems, we might be able to expect two more semi-productive seasons from him. Conservatively extrapolating his numbers to the end of the '07 season would give him these approximate career stats:

.300 BA, .422 OBP :o: , 475 HRs, 1610 RBI, along with 2 League MVPs and a Batting Title

Missing 500 career HRs might be seen as a negative to some, but anybody who can get close with a career .420+ OBP is a better overall hitter than someone like Shammy Sosa, IMO. Plus, it should be interesting to see how the Cooperstown voters treat the 500 HR benchmark in light of the blatant cheating by big-HR guys like Bonds and Sosa.

Frank may not get in on the first ballot, but he will get in soon after. If not, I'll stop following baseball.

ode to veeck
02-05-2005, 06:11 PM
At least the poll is showing reasonable #s now that more votes have rolled in. And who are those 33 weenies that think he needs to do more!?!?:mad:

AZChiSoxFan
02-08-2005, 02:51 PM
List of all players who put up 100+ RBI, 100+ RS, 100+ BB and 20+ HR in their first 8 consecutive seasons:

Frank Thomas

Case Closed!! As far as I'm concerned, the above point should end this thread.

idseer
02-08-2005, 04:59 PM
Case Closed!! As far as I'm concerned, the above point should end this thread.

well ... it seemed it ended 3 days ago until you revived it.

Mickster
02-08-2005, 05:05 PM
And who are those 33 weenies that think he needs to do more!?!?:mad:

Alanzo (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3798), Andy T Clown (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2760), BRDSR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4002), ChicagoHoosier (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4125), ChisoxfaninMinny (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=1957), Fake Chet Lemon (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3528), FireReinsdorf (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3903), gashegone72 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2601), grizzbr (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2627), Harris=God (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3181), Illini678 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2979), JKryl (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2280), JoseCanseco6969 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=883), kaufsox (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4154), konerko1413 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4211), kraut83 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=1859), mccoydp (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3827), miker (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=679), MushMouth (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3497), Nixey 02 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=1369), OG4LIFE (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3023), Olivo4MVP (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3120), Parrothead (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3082), rwcescato (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3152), Sad (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=591), SOX ADDICT '73 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4405), SoxSpeed22 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4344), ssviland (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3646), StockdaleForVeep (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2312), TheFiestyOne DJ (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2970), tlebar318 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2531), twsoxfan5 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4158), wilburaga (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2371)

idseer
02-08-2005, 06:42 PM
was that necessary? :?:

SoxxoS
02-08-2005, 06:53 PM
was that necessary? :?:

I think so...they should have to back up what they say...why not? It's called "debate."

Dadawg_77
02-08-2005, 08:19 PM
I am shocked that Voodoo hasn't Chicagoed this poll yet.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-08-2005, 08:25 PM
I am shocked that Voodoo hasn't Chicagoed this poll yet.

He can't because the names of all the voters are visible. Voodoo would be up all night inventing new user names nobody has ever heard of.
:tongue:

:hizzoner
"Might I suggest checking a nearby graveyard."

voodoochile
02-08-2005, 09:39 PM
He can't because the names of all the voters are visible. Voodoo would be up all night inventing new user names nobody has ever heard of.
:tongue:

:hizzoner
"Might I suggest checking a nearby graveyard."

West would have my ass if I registered that many fictitious names...

Besides, there is no need. Frank's numbers stand up for themselves. Anyone who can't see he already belongs is deluding themself, IMO. Those numbers already look like some of the ones Hizzoner I garnered in many elections. I remember one election in early 70's, Bill Singer got 4 votes in our entire precinct. I know because Dad was the Republican judge and him and Mom were 2 of the votes...:o:

Cowhead418
02-08-2005, 10:01 PM
Just go to this site, it may be a little old but it tells you all you need to know.

http://www.all-baseball.com/richbeat/archives/011916.html

Nuff Said

idseer
02-09-2005, 06:56 AM
Just go to this site, it may be a little old but it tells you all you need to know.

http://www.all-baseball.com/richbeat/archives/011916.html

Nuff Said

those stats are interesting but don't forget that almost all the other players' stats included their declining years. positioning will no doubt change if frank does hang around 3 or 4 more years. only then should these comparisons be made.

Deadguy
02-09-2005, 07:10 AM
those stats are interesting but don't forget that almost all the other players' stats included their declining years. positioning will no doubt change if frank does hang around 3 or 4 more years. only then should these comparisons be made.

Thanks for wasting bandwith by stating the overly obvious. Next time, read the entire article:


Conclusion: It is highly probable that Thomasí rate stats will decline over time. As a result, his career ranking in those categories could slip a few notches between now and his retirement. However, Thomas will offset any slippage in his rate standings with improved counting stats over the course of his career. In any event, I think it could easily be argued that Thomas is one of the top 20 hitters in baseball history. Despite Thomasí shortcomings as a fielder and as a baserunner, if being one of the five best first basemen and 20 greatest hitters ever isnít worthy of Hall of Fame status, then they may as well shut down Cooperstown.

Ol' No. 2
02-09-2005, 08:58 AM
...if being one of the five best first basemen and 20 greatest hitters ever isnít worthy of Hall of Fame status, then they may as well shut down Cooperstown.Amen. I can't believe we're even having this discussion.:?:

DrCrawdad
02-09-2005, 09:27 PM
I am shocked that Voodoo hasn't Chicagoed this poll yet.

Interestingly, of the five who voted NO, one is banned, another signed-up and has zero posts. I believe the person registered just to get his NO vote in.

:dtroll: :dtroll:

I don't know how many of the NOT YETS are :dtroll: