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Jjav829
01-04-2005, 02:03 PM
Only two make the HOF this year. Boggs was obviously making it first ballot. The White Sox fan part of me is disappointed to see Sandberg make it. :D:

Link (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/hof/y2005/index.jsp)

SOXintheBURGH
01-04-2005, 02:04 PM
Bah!

WhiteSoxFan84
01-04-2005, 02:08 PM
Only two make the HOF this year. Boggs was obviously making it first ballot. The White Sox fan part of me is disappointed to see Sandberg make it. :D:

Link (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/hof/y2005/index.jsp)
Yeh, that sucks. but I'd much rather have Sandberg make it rather than Ron Santo. We wouldn't hear the end of it if Santo made it. Pat Hughes would inflate his ego before and during every broadcast, "Welcome to Wrigley Field folks, Pat Hughes here with HALL OF FAMER RON SANTO, HOW ARE YOU RON?!" And during the game, "Ron, that was an odd call by Dusty Baker to have Sammy Sosa bunt with the bases loaded and 2 outs, YOU'RE A HALL OF FAMER, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?"

chisoxmike
01-04-2005, 02:09 PM
When does the non-stop around the clock coverage of Sandburg getting in the HOF on Chicago news stations start?

"We interupt this update on the tsunami to tell you Ryan Sandberg is in the Hall Of Fame, we are taking all reporters working on the tsunami story off to give you wall to wall coverage of Sandberg in the Hall Of Fame, and we'll throw in stories of the 1984 Cubs, and we'll preview the soon to be 2005 World Series Champion Chicago Cubs. We'll also note that former White Sox ace Jack McDowell did not make it in."

Frater Perdurabo
01-04-2005, 02:11 PM
Who voted for Terry Steinbach? :o:

chisoxmike
01-04-2005, 02:14 PM
Do you think Boggs will wear the Devil Ray's hat in the HOF?

Hangar18
01-04-2005, 02:23 PM
Thats Bogus ..........Ryne Sandberg in the Hall Of Fame.
Uggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the Cubtastic Coverage
begins ......Now. Before anyone tells me about all the "homeruns"
this Clown hit, Let me remind people how many of them were
WIND AIDED, better yet how many went into the Bozo Basket.
Ryne Sandberg, King of the 340 foot homer.

Frater Perdurabo
01-04-2005, 02:27 PM
Thats Bogus ..........Ryne Sandberg in the Hall Of Fame.
Uggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the Cubtastic Coverage
begins ......Now. Before anyone tells me about all the "homeruns"
this Clown hit, Let me remind people how many of them were
WIND AIDED, better yet how many went into the Bozo Basket.
Ryne Sandberg, King of the 340 foot homer.

Indeed. I thought you had named it the "Sandberg Basket" in his honor, Hangar. Put Sandberg on any other team NOT owned by a nation-wide network in any other stadium and he doesn't make the Hall.

Kogs35
01-04-2005, 02:28 PM
Thats Bogus ..........Ryne Sandberg in the Hall Of Fame.
Uggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the Cubtastic Coverage
begins ......Now. Before anyone tells me about all the "homeruns"
this Clown hit, Let me remind people how many of them were
WIND AIDED, better yet how many went into the Bozo Basket.
Ryne Sandberg, King of the 340 foot homer.
i hate the espn writers who voted for him. with that i ask that this smiley be added to the listhttp://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/17/17437/pages/600120/espnsux2.gif

tsamdog
01-04-2005, 02:44 PM
Thats Bogus ..........Ryne Sandberg in the Hall Of Fame.
Uggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the Cubtastic Coverage
begins ......Now. Before anyone tells me about all the "homeruns"
this Clown hit, Let me remind people how many of them were
WIND AIDED, better yet how many went into the Bozo Basket.
Ryne Sandberg, King of the 340 foot homer.
I just had a 'discussion' with a colleague about that very fact. Pre-basket...Sandberg hits HALF as many taters. Then, I had to hear how many gold gloves the man won...and how high his fldg. percentage was. I don't know, but from I can recall, his uni was NEVER dirty...... I swear he had the range of a third baseman.

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 02:51 PM
I just had a 'discussion' with a colleague about that very fact. Pre-basket...Sandberg hits HALF as many taters. Then, I had to hear how many gold gloves the man won...and how high his fldg. percentage was. I don't know, but from I can recall, his uni was NEVER dirty...... I swear he had the range of a third baseman.FLDPCT my ***. Maybe I'm missing someone, but I can't think of ANY 2B who made to the HOF based on FIELDING. HOF standards are definately slipping.

duke of dorwood
01-04-2005, 02:56 PM
Sandberg deserves to be in. Not bad for a guy that was acquired by trade.

:KW

I'd rather trade future HOF players before they become expensive

Jjav829
01-04-2005, 03:04 PM
Who voted for Terry Steinbach? :o:
Terry Steinbach.

Dick Allen
01-04-2005, 03:10 PM
Boy, can't wait to read my Cub-Times tomorrow. Better yet, I'll put it down for the dog first.

Jjav829
01-04-2005, 03:19 PM
Boy, can't wait to read my Cub-Times tomorrow. Better yet, I'll put it down for the dog first.
The funny thing is that Ryno's induction will be completely overshadowed by the firing of Terry Shea. His big day has suddenly become an afterthought in Chicago.

mikesouthside
01-04-2005, 03:23 PM
We all know his suit won't be "dirty" when giving his acceptance speech. Good for you Ryno...enjoy it.

SoxFan76
01-04-2005, 03:33 PM
If Ryne gets in, Frank HAS to get in.

NonetheLoaiza
01-04-2005, 03:34 PM
FLDPCT my ***. Maybe I'm missing someone, but I can't think of ANY 2B who made to the HOF based on FIELDING. HOF standards are definately slipping.Bill Mazeroski arguably for his defense (and that homerun). .983 FLDPCT

NonetheLoaiza
01-04-2005, 03:35 PM
If Ryne gets in, Frank HAS to get in.
I agree, there is no reason Frank should not get into the Hall now.

OzzieBall
01-04-2005, 03:37 PM
I was a big fan of the Cubs in the late 80's and Sandburg just seemed to be one of those guys who came in day in day out and did a masterful job. His numbers are definately helped by the Urinal, esp the basket, but he played the posistion well, and I believe he is worthy of the Hall.


Congrats Ryno. I can almost guarantee that Ryne wouldnt even want the Cub-powered media engine to go nuts. He doesnt even like the attention.

Now Frank should have no problem getting in.

RKMeibalane
01-04-2005, 03:42 PM
If Ryne gets in, Frank HAS to get in.
Agreed. There are a number of players who should now get into the HOF because Sandberg did:

(in no particular order)

1. Don Mattingly
2. Bruce Sutter
3. Rich "Goose" Gossage
4. Andre Dawson
5. Roger Maris
6. Jim Rice

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 03:42 PM
Bill Mazeroski arguably for his defense (and that homerun). .983 FLDPCTHad it not been for the famous HR, Mazeroski never would have made it. And rightly so.

Hangar18
01-04-2005, 03:45 PM
If Ryne gets in, Frank HAS to get in.

Good Point. This basically Assures Frank Thomas making the Hall of Fame.

Frater Perdurabo
01-04-2005, 03:47 PM
FLDPCT my ***. Maybe I'm missing someone, but I can't think of ANY 2B who made to the HOF based on FIELDING. HOF standards are definately slipping.

And how much was he helped by the long infield grass at the Urinal? Seems to me that helped slow down ground balls, making it easier for him to get to them. IIRC, Sandberg came to the majors as a 3B.

If Ray Durham played for the Cubs, he too would put up so-called "Hall of Fame" numbers.

bmac5001
01-04-2005, 03:54 PM
not a surprise, but congrats to boggs and sandberg. two class acts that deserve it. even if one of them is a cub. :D:

BigEdWalsh
01-04-2005, 04:13 PM
:chunks

I hate that picture but it does sum up my feelings about Sandberg being in the HOF.

Baby Fisk
01-04-2005, 04:33 PM
I disagree with the notion that Sandberg in the Hall makes Frank a shoo-in for the Hall. Frank is a shoo-in whether Sandberg got in or not!

Foulke29
01-04-2005, 04:38 PM
As much as I hate the Cubs, Ryne deserves it. From 1980 to 1990, who was a better second basemen in the league.

#2/Nellie - I strongly disagree with you on the Maz thing. He was the Ozzie Smith of second base, and if Ozzie deserved to be in, so did Maz.

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 04:45 PM
As much as I hate the Cubs, Ryne deserves it. From 1980 to 1990, who was a better second basemen in the league.

#2/Nellie - I strongly disagree with you on the Maz thing. He was the Ozzie Smith of second base, and if Ozzie deserved to be in, so did Maz.Big difference between being a great defensive SS and a 2B.

LongLiveFisk
01-04-2005, 04:48 PM
I think both Boggs and Sandberg deserve it, but I shudder to think of the disgusting LoveFest we will witness in Cooperstown as Cubs and Red Sox fans meet up to honor these two players. I can only hope that the Red Sox winning the Series will help distance them from the Cubs since they are no longer "losers"!

Foulke29
01-04-2005, 05:01 PM
Big difference between being a great defensive SS and a 2B.
Hm - see again, I disagree. 2B is more important than 3B, yes? Why's Brooks Robinson in then?

Any "Up the Middle" position is tremendously important. 2B and SS are both very important, and Maz deserves his recognition.

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 05:05 PM
Hm - see again, I disagree. 2B is more important than 3B, yes? Why's Brooks Robinson in then?

Any "Up the Middle" position is tremendously important. 2B and SS are both very important, and Maz deserves his recognition.I don't agree that 2B is "more important" than 3B. But the real issue is that 2B is the easiest of the 3 IF positions.

Baby Fisk
01-04-2005, 05:40 PM
I can only hope that the Red Sox winning the Series will help distance them from the Cubs since they are no longer "losers"![thread aside]

I think Boston fans are undergoing an identity crisis right now. Are they suddenly "Winners"? Are they still perpetual "Losers" who managed one winning season? It might take years for them to sort it out amongst themselves. One thing for certain is that idiotic Cub fans are clamping onto them like leeches.

[/thread aside]

samram
01-04-2005, 05:45 PM
There are actually people out there who think Tony Phillips, Tom Candiotti, Jim Abbott, Terry Steinbach and Jeff Montgomery are HOfers, yet Bert Blyleven can't get in.

SoxFan76
01-04-2005, 05:50 PM
I don't agree that 2B is "more important" than 3B. But the real issue is that 2B is the easiest of the 3 IF positions.
Agreed. Jeff Kent plays there for crying out loud!

LongLiveFisk
01-04-2005, 06:27 PM
[thread aside]

I think Boston fans are undergoing an identity crisis right now. Are they suddenly "Winners"? Are they still perpetual "Losers" who managed one winning season? It might take years for them to sort it out amongst themselves. One thing for certain is that idiotic Cub fans are clamping onto them like leeches.

[/thread aside]
This is a good point...believe it or not, after the Red Sox won the WS, many of them were very decent towards Cards fans and some replied how pathetic Cubs fans were, acting like THEY had won something (this was on mlb.com).

Cub fans treat the Red Sox as though they are the cooler older brother that gets the great looking girls while they are the loser little geek brother who picks his nose in science class.... :dtroll:

Baby Fisk
01-04-2005, 06:42 PM
This is a good point...believe it or not, after the Red Sox won the WS, many of them were very decent towards Cards fans and some replied how pathetic Cubs fans were, acting like THEY had won something (this was on mlb.com).

Cub fans treat the Red Sox as though they are the cooler older brother that gets the great looking girls while they are the loser little geek brother who picks his nose in science class.... :dtroll:Card fans by and large seem to have a classy aura about them. Highly respected. Cub fans on the other hand... let's just say if it weren't for the propaganda machine called ESPN, all the world would hate Cub fans.

maurice
01-04-2005, 07:17 PM
I don't know, but from I can recall, his uni was NEVER dirty.
The only thing dirty about Sandberg was his wife.
:duck:

TheBull19
01-04-2005, 07:25 PM
I don't agree that 2B is "more important" than 3B. But the real issue is that 2B is the easiest of the 3 IF positions.
So Ron Cey was a better glovesman than Sandberg?

tsamdog
01-04-2005, 07:25 PM
The only thing dirty about Sandberg was his wife.
:duck:
Hey!!! That should be in teal......wait a minute....Naaaa...you're right, Maurice.....leave it as is....lol.:rolleyes:

LongLiveFisk
01-04-2005, 07:26 PM
The only thing dirty about Sandberg was his wife.
:duck:
LOL...shame on you, maurice!
:tsk:

Ol' No. 2
01-04-2005, 07:40 PM
So Ron Cey was a better glovesman than Sandberg?No...it doesn't mean that ALL 3B are better than ALL 2B any more than ALL #1 pitchers are better than ALL #2 pitchers. Am I going too fast?

SuperSteve
01-04-2005, 07:51 PM
FLDPCT my ***. Maybe I'm missing someone, but I can't think of ANY 2B who made to the HOF based on FIELDING. HOF standards are definately slipping. I agree they are slipping, and the prestige of the HOF is just not there anymore.

ja1022
01-04-2005, 07:54 PM
The only thing dirty about Sandberg was his wife.
:duck:
Damn, you can tell where my interest in this thread is.....I don't want to get this kicked to the ****house.....but....I'd love to see a picture of ol' Cindy in that "corn cob" dress I've heard so much about. I can't remember what she looked like.

With regards to Sandberg's election......ehhhh, whatever.

tebman
01-04-2005, 08:02 PM
Bill Mazeroski arguably for his defense (and that homerun). .983 FLDPCTYou nailed it! Sandberg got in because of a couple of high-profile homers and because of the fact that he mysteriously became a media darling. I never understood that -- somehow he was named the Cubbie poster boy.

Sure, he was a good fielder, but so was Nelson Fox, and how many years and veterans' committee meanderings did it take to acknowledge him? The difference, of course, was that Sandberg played where he did, and Fox played where he did.

Bah, indeed.

- tebman

santo=dorf
01-04-2005, 11:20 PM
I was listening to Murph's show tonight while I was at work, and he said he would argue to his death that Ryno is the greatest second baseman of all time. He would take him over Hornsby, Morgan, and Nellie Fox. :rolleyes:

They also played Ryno's press conference and he talked about how :tool told him that it was great to see him in the HOF because he has been a Cub fan for 55 years. I'm sure Hangar is in a rage after reading this or hearing it on Murph's show. :D:

flo-B-flo
01-04-2005, 11:31 PM
The good thing is that any marginally talented glove man with the help of the hype machine can make the hoes of shame. The bad thing is more good players will want to play for them. Seems to me. If the sportswriters of baseball like you. And you play a few good solid years. You got a leg up in getting in. :rolleyes:

WinningUgly!
01-05-2005, 12:47 AM
Keith Olbermann, on his MSNBC show Countdown, just mentioned Sandberg's induction into the HOF & said "he didn't deserve it." He went on to say that, "Joe Gordon has been eligible for over 50 years & if he's not in, there's no way Sandberg should be, look up his numbers."

So, I did (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gordojo01.shtml). :tongue:

TommyJohn
01-05-2005, 11:16 AM
Ryno on Silvy and Carmen just said that he'd love to be inducted with
Ron Santo!

To borrow Ron Ranto's most famous quote "OHHHHHH, NOOOOOOO!!!!"

:wired: :wired: :wired:

tebman
01-05-2005, 11:50 AM
The Tribune ran an editorial today congratulating Sandberg:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0501050160jan05,1,6430375.story?coll=chi-newsopinion-hed

It seems to me that there should've been a disclaimer in there pointing out that they own the team. I don't have the back issues of the paper to check, but somehow I doubt that Nellie Fox got the same kind of congratulatory editorial from the Trib when he was belatedly voted into the HOF.

Petty grumbling, I know. But hey, I'm a Sox fan. :tongue:

- tebman

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2005, 11:58 AM
Here's my argument AGAINST Sandberg's HOF candidacy.

Offense: While the 277 HR are impressive for a 2B, consider that he played in one of the smallest parks in the majors. His HR totals rocketed upward once the Tru-link basket was installed at Wrigley. Many of his HRs would have been routine flyouts at other parks. Many were wind-aided. He came up as a 3B. He never would have been a HOF player as a 3B. 277 homers as a 3B is good, but not HOF worthy.

Defense: He didn't have the arm to play 3B, so he moved to second. Yes, he had a high fielding percentage, but he played almost 75% of his games on grass at a time when half of all NL second basemen played almost 75% of their games on turf. Six NL teams - Philly, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Houston and Montreal represented half of the NL until Florida and Colorado got franchises. It is easier to play defense on grass because the ball rolls slower and doesn't bounce as high. In addition, the Urinal's grass was cut higher to help Sandberg. Furthermore, when you have little range, you don't have as many opportunities to get to difficult ground balls and therefore make fewer errors.

Bottom line: Sandberg didn't have the arm or the bat to play 3B, where his range previously dictated that he play. He certainly was too slow for the OF or SS, and he didn't have the power to play 1B or DH. No, his HOF status is due entirely to the fact that he played in the NL, in the band-box Urinal adapted specifically to help him, and for a team owned by a propaganda machine.

Put, say, Robin Ventura in the Urinal and he'd have hit 500 home runs and been a media darling while earning 12 Gold Gloves. Put Sandberg on the Sox (or any other AL team) and he'd bat 6th or 7th.

SoxFan76
01-05-2005, 12:38 PM
But he played for the Cubs. That's an automatic induction into the Hall.

maurice
01-05-2005, 01:21 PM
I was listening to Murph's show tonight while I was at work, and he said he would argue to his death that Ryno is the greatest second baseman of all time.
I sure hope somebody takes him up on it.

I know Murphy's an idiot, but I had no idea he was THIS big of an idiot. As the dominant 2B of his era, Sandberg deserved to make the HOF. However, there's a big drop off between him and vastly superior guys like Hornsby and Eddie Collins. Morgan is overrated, but he was better than Sandberg.

Ol' No. 2
01-05-2005, 01:53 PM
I sure hope somebody takes him up on it.

I know Murphy's an idiot, but I had no idea he was THIS big of an idiot. As the dominant 2B of his era, Sandberg deserved to make the HOF. However, there's a big drop off between him and vastly superior guys like Hornsby and Eddie Collins. Morgan is overrated, but he was better than Sandberg.Sandberg is, at best, a marginal pick. Look at the most similar players at baseball-reference.com.

Lou Whitaker
Joe Torre

Neither is likely to have a plaque in Cooperstown.

maurice
01-05-2005, 02:16 PM
Joe Torre
He might make it as a manager, if he can put up with Steinbrenner long enough to collect a bunch more championships.

WinningUgly!
01-05-2005, 02:25 PM
Sandberg is, at best, a marginal pick. Look at the most similar players at baseball-reference.com.

Lou Whitaker
Joe Torre

Neither is likely to have a plaque in Cooperstown. Comparing a catcher's numbers, to those of a 2ndbaseman, doesn't make much sense to me.:?:

Dan H
01-05-2005, 02:26 PM
not a surprise, but congrats to boggs and sandberg. two class acts that deserve it. even if one of them is a cub. :D:
I don't consider Sandberg a class act, not the way he embarrassed himself at the end of his career by going in and out retirement. He was a good player but there are other players who should go in before him.

TommyJohn
01-05-2005, 03:06 PM
But he played for the Cubs. That's an automatic induction into the Hall.
Um, not really. Andre Dawson, Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter haven't made it yet.

California Sox
01-05-2005, 03:14 PM
In my opinion, and hurts to say it, both Santo and Sandberg are HOFers. Look at the All-Star games they each played in. They were each the dominant players at their positions for a decade. (And Santo did it diabetes) You can quibble about diving for balls and basket shots, but Sandberg had above average range, is a multiple Gold Glove winner, and was a very good hitter and base runner until his wife's attraction to his Latino teammates drove him into premature retirement.

The good news: Now once (and future?) Sox Robbie Alomar is a lock.

Ol' No. 2
01-05-2005, 03:20 PM
Comparing a catcher's numbers, to those of a 2ndbaseman, doesn't make much sense to me.:?:The comparisons were based mainly on offensive statistics, but they add a few points for defense, especially at key defensive positions, like catcher.

SoxFan76
01-05-2005, 03:28 PM
Um, not really. Andre Dawson, Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter haven't made it yet.
I didn't think the teal was necessary, apparently it was.

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2005, 03:31 PM
In my opinion, and hurts to say it, both Santo and Sandberg are HOFers. Look at the All-Star games they each played in. They were each the dominant players at their positions for a decade. (And Santo did it diabetes) You can quibble about diving for balls and basket shots, but Sandberg had above average range, is a multiple Gold Glove winner, and was a very good hitter and base runner until his wife's attraction to his Latino teammates drove him into premature retirement.

Best NL 2B during the 80s? That's like being the "best fielding DH" or "best-running pitcher." Tallest midget. His range only seemed better because he was chasing balls slowed by the Urinal's tall grass. He had more time to get to a ball than did, say, Tom Herr, who played 2B for St. Louis on astroturf (I'm not arguing that Herr is better than Sandberg, just that he had a much harder job even though he played the same position in the same league at roughly the same time). Ryno's gold gloves are a product of the tall grass coupled with the fact that he played during the day on a national superstation operated by a propaganda juggernaut. Without the basket and 365-foot power alleys at the Urinal, Sandberg would have hit about 200 or fewer career homers. Dawson is much more deserving than Sandberg, and Dawson is borderline at best.

The HOF is for transcendent players. Sandberg (and Santo) are not transcendent players. Put Sandberg on any other team and he would not have put up the stats that he did. Very good player? Yes. Transcendent? No.

FarWestChicago
01-05-2005, 06:32 PM
Defense: He didn't have the arm to play 3B, so he moved to second. Yes, he had a high fielding percentage, but he played almost 75% of his games on grass at a time when half of all NL second basemen played almost 75% of their games on turf. Six NL teams - Philly, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Houston and Montreal represented half of the NL until Florida and Colorado got franchises. It is easier to play defense on grass because the ball rolls slower and doesn't bounce as high. In addition, the Urinal's grass was cut higher to help Sandberg. Furthermore, when you have little range, you don't have as many opportunities to get to difficult ground balls and therefore make fewer errors.:buddylee

Ryno was my idol. I wonder if I can get in too with my amazing fielding percentage!!

batmanZoSo
01-05-2005, 10:04 PM
Keith Olbermann, on his MSNBC show Countdown, just mentioned Sandberg's induction into the HOF & said "he didn't deserve it." He went on to say that, "Joe Gordon has been eligible for over 50 years & if he's not in, there's no way Sandberg should be, look up his numbers."

So, I did (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gordojo01.shtml). :tongue:
I never even heard of him, but he has some damn good numbers. And he played for the Yankees! It appears he spent two years overseas in his prime, then came back rusty and hit .210. Add three top notch years to his career and there's no doubt about it. As it stands, he's got a pretty good case. Lots of power production for a 2B.

TommyJohn
01-06-2005, 10:23 AM
I didn't think the teal was necessary, apparently it was.
Yeah, guess so.

Hangar18
01-06-2005, 12:24 PM
Best NL 2B during the 80s? That's like being the "best fielding DH" or "best-running pitcher." Tallest midget. His range only seemed better because he was chasing balls slowed by the Urinal's tall grass. He had more time to get to a ball than did, say, Tom Herr, who played 2B for St. Louis on astroturf (I'm not arguing that Herr is better than Sandberg, just that he had a much harder job even though he played the same position in the same league at roughly the same time). Ryno's gold gloves are a product of the tall grass coupled with the fact that he played during the day on a national superstation operated by a propaganda juggernaut. Without the basket and 365-foot power alleys at the Urinal, Sandberg would have hit about 200 or fewer career homers. Dawson is much more deserving than Sandberg, and Dawson is borderline at best.

The HOF is for transcendent players. Sandberg (and Santo) are not transcendent players. Put Sandberg on any other team and he would not have put up the stats that he did. Very good player? Yes. Transcendent? No.
Excellent Post. I cant add more to this other than Im going to Print this
and hand it to Sheep-Like Fans .......