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View Full Version : kenny williams up or down?


konerko1413
01-01-2005, 11:48 PM
how many people think williams isnt the problem witht he sox success? i think he does a pretty good job with what reinsdof gives him to work with. we had a power centered team and didnt win for four years, considering the money he wasnt authorized to use, i think hes done a good job this offseason to sign cheaper but good ball players

OEO Magglio
01-01-2005, 11:49 PM
how many people think williams isnt the problem witht he sox success? i think he does a pretty good job with what reinsdof gives him to work with. we had a power centered team and didnt win for four years, considering the money he wasnt authorized to use, i think hes done a good job this offseason to sign cheaper but good ball players
Oh boy, first off welcome aboard, 2nd, not a good topic to start there have been so many arguments here about this same topic and it usually gets ugly.

duke of dorwood
01-01-2005, 11:50 PM
Down :o:

He inherited a division winner-nothing but regressed since

zach074
01-01-2005, 11:52 PM
I don't think he is that big of a problem, he has done some dumb things but Jerry is the real reason we haven't won a world series for so long.

munchman33
01-01-2005, 11:52 PM
Kenny inherited a team that overachieved in 2000. He did a real good job of adding talent, and in 2003 we had all the pieces to win it all. Unfortunately, Jerry Manuel's ignorant managing coupled with a lack of clutch performance in the last few weeks of the season (probably a spawn of Manuel's nature) prevented us from making the playoffs. Last year, we were in first place the last time the team was with both Frank and Maggs. Freak injuries ruined that season.

As for this year, I think Kenny has done a great job of completely remaking the team. If he adds A.J. and Iguchi, I'd consider this the greatest White Sox offseason since the acquisition of Fisk.

BRDSR
01-01-2005, 11:56 PM
I don't think he is that big of a problem, he has done some dumb things but Jerry is the real reason we haven't won a world series for so long.
Lets not be rash. Reinsdorf became the managing partner in what...'81 right? thats 24 seasons? He's only about a quarter of the reason we haven't won a world series for so long.

ilsox7
01-01-2005, 11:57 PM
I think this is the 14 billionth time this has come up. Spring training can not get here fast enough.

zach074
01-01-2005, 11:58 PM
Lets not be rash. Reinsdorf became the managing partner in what...'81 right? thats 24 seasons? He's only about a quarter of the reason we haven't won a world series for so long.
Haha very true.

santo=dorf
01-02-2005, 12:08 AM
Down :o:

He inherited a division winner-nothing but regressed since
This "argument" is so lame that it is now merely laughable.

How many more times do we need to debunk this crackpot "argument?" :?:

OurBitchinMinny
01-02-2005, 12:10 AM
He has made some dumb moves, but also some good ones. The lee trade is still a head scratcher. I know it freed up money, but you cant trade a relatively young potential all star for a middle reliever and average outfielder. But the main problem with the sox is reinsdorf and i dont see them winning it all till he sells or dies

zach074
01-02-2005, 12:11 AM
This "argument" is so lame that it is now merely laughable.

How many more times do we need to debunk this crackpot "argument?" :?:

He really did only inherit a fluke, none of the starting pitchers are pitching anymore doesn't that tell everyone something. By the way your signature is awesome.:bandance:

santo=dorf
01-02-2005, 12:13 AM
I know it freed up money, but you cant trade a relatively young potential all star for a middle reliever and average outfielder.
Says who? :?:
We also got another player coming in that deal, and eventually we could turn Lee into Podsednik, Vizcaino, El Duque, PTBNL, AJ, and maybe Cora.

santo=dorf
01-02-2005, 12:15 AM
He really did only inherit a fluke, none of the starting pitchers are pitching anymore doesn't that tell everyone something. By the way your signature is awesome.:bandance:
As is yours. :cool:

Should we blame Kenny for Wells going down considering Sirotka has lit the world on fire since the trade? :?:

How about Cal Eldred? Or Frank Thomas? or Jim Parque?

zach074
01-02-2005, 12:31 AM
[QUOTE=santo=dorf]As is yours. :cool:

I have WU to thank for that.

batmanZoSo
01-02-2005, 01:16 AM
Down :o:

He inherited a division winner-nothing but regressed since He didn't inherit crap. Actually, he did. His first year here, he lost half the team to injuries, and it probably wasn't good enough to win anyway. Basically the same group of guys, but coming off a year when everything possible went right. We were due to lose

Nothing short of pure genius could've made us a World Series winner the last four years. He's not quite that but he's not the reason for our failures either. I think overall he's made more good moves than bad and at the very least one has to give him the benefit of the doubt sometimes considering his aggressiveness and that he has very little to work with.

I'm really sick of these kinds of threads. I move for a writ of KW debating threads shall be moved to the Roadhouse. Besides, this is the guy y'all want:

:reinsy
What did I do?

SoxFanTillDeath
01-02-2005, 02:53 AM
In the end you judge a GM by the number of WS rings he wins. Every year all but one of the GMs fail in their jobs. You really cannot judge a GM until a minimum of 5 years AFTER his tenure is over, so this is basically a pointless debate that will go on forever and ever.

Gosh, I can't wait for spring training...

WhiteSoxFan84
01-02-2005, 02:55 AM
Here's a question I have for all of you;

Do you like how KW gets his feet wet in every possible pond, lake, or ocean? What I mean by that is do you like how his name seems to be mentioned in so many different trades, possible signings, etc.? All the way from the possible acquisition of Randy Johnson to the formal offer to A.J. Pierzynski. This offseason he seems to have been very busy. I love the active mode he's switched to. Now if JR can only give him more payroll to work with. That being said, I still say if the Sox don't win the division this year, he should get fired (unless we have endless injuries again).

What I find humor in is the fact that the trades and most of the signings that he makes come out of nowhere and we have no idea about. Unlike the lengthy rumored trades/signings that almost always never happen.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-02-2005, 03:01 AM
In the end you judge a GM by the number of WS rings he wins. Every year all but one of the GMs fail in their jobs. You really cannot judge a GM until a minimum of 5 years AFTER his tenure is over, so this is basically a pointless debate that will go on forever and ever.

Gosh, I can't wait for spring training...
I COMPLETELY disagree. I think that at the beginning of every year at least 50% of the league knows they will not win the World Series. How can you tell me that the GM of the Devil Rays thinks he can win the WS every year? You can't. To them, small accomplishments like finishing over .500 or building a rotation that can compete is the main goal for the year.

CallMeNuts
01-02-2005, 10:28 AM
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I can't accuse KW of being insane. Thumbs up for revamping the team to try something new. Longball didn't work. Let's try pitching!

KW will be mentioned in so many deals for two reasons: 1) He doesn't want to be perceived as a do-nothing GM. (a.k.a. Ron Schueler). 2) He really is looking at every angle to improve the team. You don't know what kind of a deal can be worked out if you aren't talking.

idseer
01-02-2005, 10:34 AM
He didn't inherit crap. Actually, he did. His first year here, he lost half the team to injuries, and it probably wasn't good enough to win anyway. Basically the same group of guys, but coming off a year when everything possible went right. We were due to lose if i may add one thing ...

actually it was only one HALF a year that everything went right (52-29). the last half of that year the sox regressed back to their normal state. they barely played .500 ball (43-41) and then went on to embarrass themselves in the playoffs where jm was schooled by lou piniella.

even tho we hoped the sox were really that good you had to see at the time it was flukey.

johnny_mostil
01-02-2005, 10:58 AM
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I can't accuse KW of being insane. Thumbs up for revamping the team to try something new. Longball didn't work. Let's try pitching!

In terms of major league roster management, Williams is very smart and fairly aggressive. He seems to lean much more to intuitive "seat of the pants" decision-making as opposed to thinking problems through. I believe he makes long range plans but I don't know that I see any sort of consistent strategy -- whether that's "adapting because something didn't work" or "thrashing the organization" is really only in the eye of the beholder.

In terms of overall minor league roster management, you can only give the Sox (and Williams) a poor grade as the farm system has not been productive. While KW has shipped vast swaths of the system out for repeated re-acquisitions of certain players, those swaths were probably all failures-to-be.

In terms of personnel judgement, IMO, Jerry Manuel was given at least one more year than he should have been given, and firing him in June of 2003 was a no-brainer after it was clear he was phoning in the job.

Fredsox
01-02-2005, 11:09 AM
I COMPLETELY disagree. I think that at the beginning of every year at least 50% of the league knows they will not win the World Series. How can you tell me that the GM of the Devil Rays thinks he can win the WS every year? You can't. To them, small accomplishments like finishing over .500 or building a rotation that can compete is the main goal for the year.
I like the idea of a 5 year evaluation. Each GM has to have a strategic plan to win the World Series. If he doesn't he should be fired. That plan includes a roadmap of the tangible, measurable progress they expect to make each season, and adjustments to the 5 year plan are made along the way. At the end of the 5 year period you do not necessarily fire a GM who has not won the WS, but it is important to understand why it didn't happen and how you can keep moving toward it in a deliberate and measurable way (wins, division titles, playoff wins, etc.).

I think Williams moves very aggressively to win the WS, he seems like a guy who always has his eye on the prize and is not willing to settle for anything less than a championship. I like that. He has shown a determination to make the moves he feels will put the team over the top. Clearly he has not yet succeeded, but he works harder than any Sox GM I've seen. I think we all agree that he would have won the division easily last year if the team did no lose Thomas and Ordonez to injuries, so he did his job. Another thing I really like about him is he is not afraid to be wrong and take a chance on someone. He's got "brass ones" if you know what I mean. I think he's a winner.

Jjav829
01-02-2005, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=santo=dorf]As is yours. :cool:

I have WU to thank for that.
Yeah, WU does a great job with images/sigs.

On a completely seperate note, I am currently lacking a signature. :D:

jabrch
01-02-2005, 06:02 PM
Says who? :?:
We also got another player coming in that deal, and eventually we could turn Lee into Podsednik, Vizcaino, El Duque, PTBNL, AJ, and maybe Cora.


yeah, but that's not enough - you know that. Nothing short of winning a World Series will make some people stop hating KW. Some call that having a winning attitude, I call it unrealistic expectations.

Jjav829
01-02-2005, 06:20 PM
yeah, but that's not enough - you know that. Nothing short of winning a World Series will make some people stop hating KW. Some call that having a winning attitude, I call it unrealistic expectations.
Why? I'm not a big KW basher, but why is it unrealistic to expect a World Series Champion to be put on the field by your teams owner and GM? I think fans have every right to expect and demand the best team possible, and that means a World Series champion. For that matter, fans of a team that hasn't won a World Series since 1917 should have even greater demands for a championship.

soxwon
01-02-2005, 06:53 PM
kenny has done a great job this off season.

a great pitching staff will rule!!!

2005 our year no question!!!

SoxEd
01-02-2005, 07:10 PM
yeah, but that's not enough - you know that. Nothing short of winning a World Series will make some people stop hating KW. Some call that having a winning attitude, I call it unrealistic expectations.
I think you're right about the attitude some people have with regards to the Sox' backroom staff, but I also think Sox fans should expect some success - I mean, Chicago (and its environs) is a MAJOR city - hardly a small market, is it?
Not like, I don't know, Minnesota perhaps.

Given the size of the fan-base, it ought to be an item of civic shame that the City now has BOTH the teams with the two longest WS-droughts.
And they're soo long it isn't even funny.

I mean, 1908 and 1917?

Whilst I couldn't give a rat's a** for the Cubs' misery, why have Chicago fans had to wait 87 years (and, let's hope, only nine more months) to see a World Series winner from the shores of Lake Michigan?

How long is the next-longest WS drought?

As far as I know, it's Cleveland's - the Indians' fans have been waiting in vain since 'only' 1948 - a whole 31 years less pain than that of Chicago.

What is the relative size of the Cleveland market compared to Chicago's?

How many completely new franchises have won the Fall Classic since 1917?

I mean, the Marlins have won it all twice now, as many times as the Sox, and they've only existed since 1993.

The Minnesota Twins, perhaps the smallest-market franchise in our own Division, have won it twice inside the last twenty years.

The other ALC minnows, KC, have won it as recently as 1985 - and they didn't exist until 1969.

Obviously, I'm not saying that we should expect to win the WS every year, but come on, it's about time the franchise delivered some meaningful successes - winning the Division should be almost a given, and the League Championship Pennant should be a regular visitor to Chicago - certainly more often than since 1959. (Or, if you're a Cubs fan lurking on the site, since 1945).

OK, what right do I have to be whining, I'm a Brit and I'm the only baseball fan I know out here in the sticks (not to mention that, as a fan of BCFC, I am pretty much inured to long years of trophy-less seasons), but what is wrong with the City of Chicago?

Why is it home to the two 'losingest' teams in Baseball?

If I lived in Chicago, I'd be making my opinion on this very well known to the team's ownership group - 45 years without a League pennant is WAY too long :angry:.

OK, I'll go and have a lie down in a quiet room now, as you were...

iwannago
01-02-2005, 07:21 PM
kenny has done a great job this off season.

a great pitching staff will rule!!!

2005 our year no question!!!
I really hope your right, but I think its just wishful thinking. KW should have received alot more for C Lee. I just think its time the Sox got a real GM, I can't think of the last time we had one and while we're at it, new ownership.

batmanZoSo
01-02-2005, 07:27 PM
what is wrong with the City of Chicago?

Why is it home to the two 'losingest' teams in Baseball?

If I lived in Chicago, I'd be making my opinion on this very well known to the team's ownership group - 45 years without a League pennant is WAY too long :angry:.

OK, I'll go and have a lie down in a quiet room now, as you were...
Ever notice how bitter we all are?

If I could take a stab at it, it's probably because we midwesterners are too nice and forgiving. I blame the church, but that's just me. New Yorkers wouldn't allow this. The West Coast is far too populous and wealthy to sustain a streak of futility like this. All of our teams suck royally. The Bears are the winningest team in football history, but only one title to speak of since 1964 (and boy do we ever). And that I think is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Only Chicagoans could still be satisfied with a Super Bowl that happened almost 20 years ago. The Blackhawks--one Stanley Cup since 61. And I think they've made postseason once in 8 years, in a sport that allows like half the damn league into it. The only thing we've had go right for us in the last half century was Michael Jordan. And is that ever ancient history. The Bulls have yet to climb out of the cellar since he left.

johnny_mostil
01-02-2005, 07:58 PM
What is wrong with the City of Chicago?

Why is it home to the two 'losingest' teams in Baseball?

First, separate the problem into "Cubs" and "White Sox". Why the Cubbies haven't won a pennant since two months after V-J Day is an interesting question, but one for another site, if one exists.

Why the White Sox haven't won the pennant but one time in 85 years is pretty easy to explain. A combination of scandal, rotten luck, ideology, and incompetence.

First, the Black Sox scandal set the franchise back for a decade. By failing to insist that baseball root out all of the cheaters and gamblers, and instead allow Judge Landis to pick on just one high-profile team, Chicago and the White Sox allowed their organization to be crippled in an era when losing 8 precious ballplayers was death. Gambling and corruption was rife before 1919 and they could have easily banned 8 players per team if they'd investigated. They didn't. Now, if you put Johnny Mostil and Willie Kamm and Ted Lyons on a roster with the backbone of the Black Sox (Felsch, Jackson, Weaver, Collins, Schalk, Cicotte, Williams, Faber), you have a team that would have deeply challenged the Yankees through the early and mid 1920s.

Second, the White Sox have the misfortune to share a league for 85 years with the baseball equivalent of the Roman Empire. It is not a coincidence that the drought matches the Yankee Ascendancy. Only a few windows of opportunity have opened since 1920 to whip the Yankees consistently for the pennant, and the White Sox had the misfortune to time their most successful period, 1951-1967, right smack dab during the time that the Yankees had Berra, Mantle, Ford, and their most enormous collection of superior talent. Even when the Yankees were down, the early 70s and the late 80s, the A's, who stunk most of the last 50 years, had managed to build mini-dynasties to replace them. Had the Go Go Sox existed in 1972, they would have been the pennant winners.

Third, the organization for decades treated offense as if it was an entirely optional component of a baseball team. There were at least four years in the 1960s where the White Sox would have won the pennant if they'd had ANYBODY who could hit the ball. They DID win the pennant when they got a first baseman in midseason who clobbered the ball. After that, some years they played guys at some positions who basically hit like pitchers. They even used pitchers as pinch hitters because they hit better than the position players. Part of it was the fascination with "pitching, speed, and defense" taken to extremes, but partly it was that the guys they developed who could hit the ball, like Melton, May, and especially Pete Ward, got hurt in bizarre ways and had their careers cut drastically short. They probably should have won the pennant in 1964 and 1967, but rotten luck intervened.

Fourth, current ownership is excessively tolerant of executive mistakes and ridiculously loyal. Scheuler lasted at least five years after he should have been canned. Jerry Manuel got at least one and maybe two years after it was clear he was the Blind Squirrel in 2000. That Rob Gallas was allowed to run marketing for as long as he was is just astonishing, that would be like Fox deciding to run Big Fat Obnoxious Boss wall to wall for a week after finding out nobody was watching. JR gets a lot of flak for being cheap, stupid, etc., but ultimately his main fault is he tolerates bozos for way too long.

That, in my opinion, is why the team hasn't won.

johnny_mostil
01-02-2005, 08:06 PM
The Minnesota Twins, perhaps the smallest-market franchise in our own Division, have won it twice inside the last twenty years.

The Twins played in a ballpark that basically gave them five to ten cheap wins a season due to the fact that it's just plain weird and it disorients visiting teams. This effect continues into the playoffs and certainly contributed to their 1987 and 1991 pennants. I think this effect was slightly reduced by the long-overdue decision to remove the sponge-o-turf last year. (My own thought is any time a line single to left bounces over the left fielder's head, the umpires should be required to stop the game and forfeit it immediately, citing "unplayable grounds" until the surface is somehow fixed to resemble a "baseball field". It was no less insidious and dangerous than a few million busted up bits of vinyl and a little crater in center field.)

santo=dorf
01-02-2005, 09:36 PM
The Twins played in a ballpark that basically gave them five to ten cheap wins a season due to the fact that it's just plain weird and it disorients visiting teams. This effect continues into the playoffs and certainly contributed to their 1987 and 1991 pennants. I think this effect was slightly reduced by the long-overdue decision to remove the sponge-o-turf last year. (My own thought is any time a line single to left bounces over the left fielder's head, the umpires should be required to stop the game and forfeit it immediately, citing "unplayable grounds" until the surface is somehow fixed to resemble a "baseball field". It was no less insidious and dangerous than a few million busted up bits of vinyl and a little crater in center field.)
Don't forget that the top of the dome is white making it hard for fielders to see the ball.

JKryl
01-03-2005, 12:40 AM
I think this is the 14 billionth time this has come up. Spring training can not get here fast enough.
Amen brother. But, I think Kenny has finally got his act together. At the very least, he's trying.

:bundy White Sox baseball, every day an adventure!

gosox41
01-03-2005, 11:39 AM
Amen brother. But, I think Kenny has finally got his act together. At the very least, he's trying.

:bundy White Sox baseball, every day an adventure!
He's been trying for over 4 years. It's time to put up.


Bob

Flight #24
01-03-2005, 11:46 AM
He's been trying for over 4 years. It's time to put up.


Bob
True, but looking at this as a rebuilding team (as IMO any team without a starting rotation or a competent manager should be - and that was the case when he took over in 2001), remaining competitive while rebuilding takes time. 4 years is about right unless you have the wherewithal to go buy top pitching on the FA market.

This team seems to have his true stamp on it. And in the next 1-2 years, we'll see what his impact on the farm system has been as GM. Thus the 2005 season at both the major and minor league levels will tell the true tale of KW as GM. If Anderson/Sweeney/Fields/Bmac/etc continue to develop as top-flight prospects, then he's done a good job retooling the farm system. If the team on the field is more consistent and wins, then he's done a good job at the ML level without a lot of help from the farm system. If both happen, then he's done an excellent job.

gosox41
01-03-2005, 11:53 AM
True, but looking at this as a rebuilding team (as IMO any team without a starting rotation or a competent manager should be - and that was the case when he took over in 2001), remaining competitive while rebuilding takes time. 4 years is about right unless you have the wherewithal to go buy top pitching on the FA market.

This team seems to have his true stamp on it. And in the next 1-2 years, we'll see what his impact on the farm system has been as GM. Thus the 2005 season at both the major and minor league levels will tell the true tale of KW as GM. If Anderson/Sweeney/Fields/Bmac/etc continue to develop as top-flight prospects, then he's done a good job retooling the farm system. If the team on the field is more consistent and wins, then he's done a good job at the ML level without a lot of help from the farm system. If both happen, then he's done an excellent job.
I see what you're saying. And I am excited about 2005. I think KW has made some good, solid moves so far.

But to play devil's advocate, a lot of the reason it took 4 years to retool was of KW's own making. He wants these 'grinders' which I think became a new concept to him after 2003 (even though he didn't do much at the time to get them) but he is also the same guy who signed/extended all these power hitters to big contracts. It doesn't help that the one guy KW wanted out is the best of them all....Frank.



Bob

SOXSINCE'70
01-03-2005, 12:12 PM
Lets not be rash. Reinsdorf became the managing partner in what...'81 right? thats 24 seasons? He's only about a quarter of the reason we haven't won a world series for so long.
This is true.I also blame the Comiskeys,the Arthur Allyn group and
Bill Veeck,who some would say called himself a "fan's owner"
while trying to sell the team to another city.The Sox have
historically been a frugal team.Someone needs to break
this trend during my lifetime.