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View Full Version : Who now has the better rotation?


Takatsufan
12-31-2004, 04:34 PM
Better rotation: Sox or cubs

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 04:35 PM
Its no contest who has the better rotation, the cubs. but i think our pitching staff as a whole is better. our bullpen in awsome and they have no closer.

Jjav829
12-31-2004, 04:37 PM
Umm, is there even a question? It's the Cubs.

voodoochile
12-31-2004, 04:37 PM
Its no contest who has the better rotation, the cubs. but i think our pitching staff as a whole is better. our bullpen in awsome and they have no closer.
get ready to take some crap for that statement...

voodoochile
12-31-2004, 04:39 PM
Umm, is there even a question? It's the Cubs.
Did they sign someone this off season?

I would like to hear this explained nice and slow. Prior is the best pitcher in Chicago when healthy, but the rest of them don't blow me away and Garcia and Buehrle are both top of the rotation guys.

Am I missing something or is my bias showing?

Soxzilla
12-31-2004, 04:41 PM
Cubs. Prior - Zambrano - Wood - Maddux - Rusch(?)

That is a hot rotation.

voodoochile
12-31-2004, 04:42 PM
Cubs. Prior - Zambrano - Wood - Maddux - Rusch(?)

That is a hot rotation.
Okay, I forgot about Maddux...:(:

Flight #24
12-31-2004, 04:43 PM
Did they sign someone this off season?

I would like to hear this explained nice and slow. Prior is the best pitcher in Chicago when healthy, but the rest of them don't blow me away and Garcia and Buehrle are both top of the rotation guys.

Am I missing something or is my bias showing?
I'd put it this way:

Prior > Buehrle
Zambrano > Garcia
Wood > Hernandez
Maddux > Contreras
Garland >> Rusch (I don't see him repeating last year's stats)

I can see an argument that Zambrano & Wood are equal to Garcia & Hernandez, but that still leaves us with an advantage at the #5 but them with an advantage at the #s 1 & 4.

Jjav829
12-31-2004, 04:44 PM
Did they sign someone this off season?

I would like to hear this explained nice and slow. Prior is the best pitcher in Chicago when healthy, but the rest of them don't blow me away and Garcia and Buehrle are both top of the rotation guys.

Am I missing something or is my bias showing?
Your bias is showing. Seriously, if I told you right now you could choose Prior, Zambrano, Wood, Maddux, and Rusch or Buehrle, Garcia, El Duque, Contreras, and Garland, you would actually think about this? It's a snap decision to me. And I think outside of White Sox fans, it would be a quick decision for anyone else. If everything goes right, the Sox rotation has a chance to be good this year. If everything goes right, the Cubs rotation has a chance to be great this year. I think Rusch will come down to Earth, but with those first 4 in place, the Cubs will have a shot to do plenty of damage. I don't even think it is close. It would be interesting to see the results of a poll like this on a non-biased board. My guess is that the Sox would be lucky to get 10% of the vote.

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 04:45 PM
Prior > Buehrle
Zambrano > Garcia
Wood > Hernandez
Maddux > Contreras
Garland >> Rusch (I don't see him repeating last year's stats)

since when was Garland on the cubs?

Soxzilla
12-31-2004, 04:47 PM
since when was Garland on the cubs?
He didn't want to use less than symbols.

:wink:

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 04:48 PM
I think our rotation will have more wins thou because they wont have to worry about leaving with the lead and then Jackson or Koch givin it up.

OzzieBall2004
12-31-2004, 04:49 PM
While I agree the Cubs have the best staff, I like our 1 and 2 against their 1 and 2 any day. Prior and Wood have overpowering stuff, but health issues surround both of them, and I'm not sold that the Cubs can go a full season without one of them going on the shelf for a little while. And their chances for success hinge on that.

Granted, El Duque might be 55 years old so I wish we had that problem.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-31-2004, 04:51 PM
Prior, Wood, and Zambrano are all top of the rotation type guys but they're young and you never know what's going to happen with them. Prior has been outstanding when healthy ever since his debut. Kerry Wood's been pretty good when healthy but his win totals are always low because the cubs usually suck. Zambrano's had 2 seasons as being a full time starter and has been possibly their best pitcher over the past 2 years since he's been healthy throughout both seasons. Maddux isn't as good as he used to be but he can still win games and you need those type of guys at the end of the rotation. As for Rusch, he could've had a career year last year similar to loaiza since he's been awful his entire career before he pitched for the cubs. I think Garcia and Buehrle are on par with the cubs top guys, but there's a lot of unproven guys in our rotation with Jose Contreras, Garland, and El Duque(only with durability though, he's been pretty good otherwise)

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 04:52 PM
These days its starting to look like there number 2 is Zambrano. Remember when it was Diaz vs. Zambrano and Diaz one, good times.

The Wunsch
12-31-2004, 04:55 PM
with the exception of maddux, none of the cubs pitchers have had more than one good season.

prior = flash in the pan
zambrano = flash in the pan
wood = damaged goods
bullpen = absent

but i'm not saying we should have complete confidence in the cuban national team:?: but the sox have the best opening day rotation they've had in year, and the bullpen is stached

SomebodyToldMe
12-31-2004, 04:55 PM
I chose the cubs. As much as I hate them, they have great starters. Really, that's a BIG reason why I hate them so much.

CWSGuy406
12-31-2004, 04:55 PM
Your bias is showing. Seriously, if I told you right now you could choose Prior, Zambrano, Wood, Maddux, and Rusch or Buehrle, Garcia, El Duque, Contreras, and Garland, you would actually think about this? It's a snap decision to me. And I think outside of White Sox fans, it would be a quick decision for anyone else. If everything goes right, the Sox rotation has a chance to be good this year. If everything goes right, the Cubs rotation has a chance to be great this year. I think Rusch will come down to Earth, but with those first 4 in place, the Cubs will have a shot to do plenty of damage. I don't even think it is close. It would be interesting to see the results of a poll like this on a non-biased board. My guess is that the Sox would be lucky to get 10% of the vote.
Don't worry, I'm not here to argue your Sox/Cubs thing.

But:

If everything goes right in our rotation, I think this rotation has the chance to be great.

Just think about it for a minute -- I know this is a lot of ifs, but you said if everything were to go right. Well, what if Contreras pitches to his potential this year, with a full offseason of his family here in the states, on a less pressure packed team/city? We all know how dominant Contreras is when he's on -- if he can keep his walk numbers down this season, he's as good as about anyone -- and I'm dead serious in that comment.

What if Garland pitched like Jon, not Judy? He's our fifth starter -- and we already know that he's going to give us a sub-five ERA. What if he's able to put up a sub-4.5 ERA? Our fifth starter giving us 200 IP, as well as a sub-four-and-a-half ERA... Wow.

Finally, El Duque. I highly doubt that he stays healthy the whole season, so I won't even ponder that 'if'. But, if he can give us 20-25 starts, then that's really good -- because, you know that El Duque is going to step up in that big game. He's the guy who stops that four game losing streak. He's the guy that beats the Twins in the rubber-match of that three game series...

Sorry if I sound like a 'homer' here, but I'm so confident in our pitching staff this year. If Kenny can land Pierz and Cairo (Heck, just one of the two), we will have the most complete team in a long time, maybe even better than '94 (I wasn't as much a follower of the Sox in '94, but I've heard that that team had some bullpen issues, as this team -- IMHO -- doesn't).

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 04:59 PM
I would take a healthy Prior over anyone in our staff. Except Buehrle of course

eastchicagosoxfan
12-31-2004, 05:01 PM
The Sox have a good rotation, and with especially when you consider the durability of the staff. Our guys, with the exception of El Duque, have been healthy their whole career. Wood and Prior are great pitchers; both have a history of getting hurt. Maddux is a year older, and has started slowly the last couple of years. Zambrano is very good, but a hothead. Buerhle is workhorse, and very steady. The Flubs don't have anyone like him. Garcia is an innings guy too. And you don't get innings without being effective. I don't think Contreras has been hurt, but he has been inconsistent. Garland has been consistent--much to most Sox fans chagrin. Rusch had the best season his career will ever see. Garland's is yet to come. I like our guys. We will play more than 162 this year!

OurBitchinMinny
12-31-2004, 05:13 PM
I would take a healthy Prior over anyone in our staff. Except Buehrle of course
look i hate the cubs as much as anyone, but you would take a healthy buerhle over a healthy prior? Buerhle is a solid pitcher, but hes doesnt have the stuff prior does.

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 05:16 PM
Prior seems like a jerk. Buehrle is a good clubhouse guy, is a horse, and puts up consistantly good numbers. I would take Prior on the mound over Buehrle on the mound but thats only every 5th game.

SoxFan76
12-31-2004, 05:45 PM
For those in favor of the Cubs staff, you seem to have a lot of "ifs". If Prior and Wood are healthy, they are good. Well they can never stay healthy. Buerhle and Garcia, knock on wood, can stay healthy. "If" everything goes according to plan, the Cubs have a better staff. But as far as the Sox staff, there are a lot more definites. Buerhle and Garcia are going to give you a solid season. Garland is going to be the best 5th starter in baseball. Hernandez is going to give you 10-12 wins and a sub-4 ERA. I'd take the Sox staff any day. They are more reliable.

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 06:18 PM
el duque and contreras are "ifs" when at there best their not as good as the "ifs" prior and wood. Prior only had 1 injury so you cant say he is exactly injury prone.

SOXintheBURGH
12-31-2004, 06:20 PM
What was the Messiah's ERA last year? 53.24?

Jjav829
12-31-2004, 06:21 PM
For those in favor of the Cubs staff, you seem to have a lot of "ifs". If Prior and Wood are healthy, they are good. Well they can never stay healthy. Buerhle and Garcia, knock on wood, can stay healthy. "If" everything goes according to plan, the Cubs have a better staff. But as far as the Sox staff, there are a lot more definites. Buerhle and Garcia are going to give you a solid season. Garland is going to be the best 5th starter in baseball. Hernandez is going to give you 10-12 wins and a sub-4 ERA. I'd take the Sox staff any day. They are more reliable.
Valid point. But I'd hardly call Prior an "if" at this point. Last year was the first time he's experienced an injury. It's not like he has a track record of being injured. Wood does have a track record of injuries, though for a #3 starter, i's worth the risk.

Jjav829
12-31-2004, 06:22 PM
What was the Messiah's ERA last year? 53.24?It was actually only 4.02.

SOXintheBURGH
12-31-2004, 06:23 PM
It was actually only 4.02.

That's good.. nothing to mess yourself over though. Injuries!

Jjav829
12-31-2004, 06:30 PM
That's good.. nothing to mess yourself over though. Injuries!
What do you think of 2.43? Mess-worthy?

DrCrawdad
12-31-2004, 06:32 PM
Better rotation: Sox or cubs

Does it matter? The White Sox have to win the AL Central, first.

The Cubbies had 'The best rotation in the history of baseball' last year, or so I was told. And what did it do for them? A 3rd place finish in the NL Central.

JoseCanseco6969
12-31-2004, 06:37 PM
since when was Garland on the cubs? where do you think we got him????

by the way

:threadsucks

voodoochile
12-31-2004, 06:39 PM
where do you think we got him????

by the way

:threadsucks
Out of curiousity only, why does this thread suck? :dunno:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 07:02 PM
I say Sox. Before you get on me, hear me out;

1) Mark Prior vs. Mark Buehrle. Prior Version 2003 was by far the best single season by a Chicago starter in a while, even better than Esteban Loaiza's 2003. Prior Version 2004 put doubts in a lot of observers' minds. Serious injuries, rehab taking longer than it should, and people questioning Prior's toughness really hurt him. Buehrle's toughness and durability is unmatched. He's out there giving 110% every outting. Remember when he was begging Jerry Manuel to start AT Yankee Stadium hoping to complete the sweep? Of course Jerry said no and we lost the division that year (I think mainly because of that incident). Prior will be mainly remembered for one thing and one thing only until the Cubs make it to the World Series; game 6 of the 2003 NLCS. Buehrle hasn't had a defining moment yet, but constantly throwing 200-250 innings every year easily makes him a work horse who can anchor a rotation. In the end, Buehrle is a stud but still is a work in progress and Prior's still an incomplete.
Advantage: PUSH

2) Kerry Wood vs. Freddy Garcia. Kerry Wood's best season is still his rookie season. He hasn't won more than 14 games in his career and just doesn't seem to be consistent at all. Garcia has pitched in big games and has been very successful. Last year could have possibly been a bad year for him. He is a Cy Young calibur pitcher. Wood can also be dominant from time to time. However, he is well known for losing complete control of his pitches at any moment during a season. Garcia's playoff performance and Wood's inconsistency have me leaning towards the South.
Advantage: Garcia

3) Carlos Zambrano vs. Orlando Hernandez. Some may argue that Greg Maddux is the # 3 but I think Zambrano has pitched well enough to be considered the Cubs' ace and thus I make him the # 3. If we were doing a long-term comparison, Zambrano EASILY has the edge. However, I'm going to go ahead and say we are doing a short-term comparison because both teams want to win NOW. El Duque's performance in the playoffs last year and his overall season were pretty solid. Zambrano last year was LIGHTS OUT good. Having pitched in Yankee Stadium and being as successful as he is, Hernandez has earned the respect of a lot of people in and around the game. Once again we go back to Zambrano's performance in the 2003 playoffs, one word can describe his effort; horrendous. He simply ran out of gas as soon as he neared 200 IP for the year. In the end, it's still a toss up, but if the way Zambrano pitched last year is any indicator of how he can pitch in the future, than Zambrano has the edge. But if the way he pitched in the 2003 playoffs is an indicator of how he will perform in the playoffs, then Hernandez has the edge. The bottomline here is experience and performance in the playoffs. I know I'll get a lot of people on my back for this one, but once again, I'm going with our guy.
Advantage: Hernandez

4) Greg Maddux vs. Jose Contreras. Contreras tends to have lights out stuff and that's whay.... I'm kidding. Unless Maddux has a really bad year and loses it because of his age or whatever reason, he has the edge.
Advantage: Maddux.

5) Glendon Rusch vs. Jon Garland. Because most of sports fans have short term memory, almost all of them would choose Rusch because of his 2004 performance. Just look one year prior and you see that he was 1-12 with an ERA over 6. A year before that he lost 16 games. A year before he was a 8-12 pitcher. Garland, on the other hand, has consistently put up acceptable numbers (however he was pitched in the 3rd slot instead of the 5th where he is best suited). Over the past 3 years, he has averaged 12 wins and 12 losses with an average ERA near 4.60. If you ask me, 12-12, 4.60 from a # 5 are numbers I would gladly take.
Advantage: Garland.

There you have my opinion, 3-1-1, Sox. Obviously you all won't agree, but I firmly stand behind everything I said. Go Sox.

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 07:32 PM
1) Mark Prior vs. Mark Buehrle. Prior Version 2003 was by far the best single season by a Chicago starter in a while, even better than Esteban Loaiza's 2003. Prior Version 2004 put doubts in a lot of observers' minds. Serious injuries, rehab taking longer than it should, and people questioning Prior's toughness really hurt him. Buehrle's toughness and durability is unmatched. He's out there giving 110% every outting. Remember when he was begging Jerry Manuel to start AT Yankee Stadium hoping to complete the sweep? Of course Jerry said no and we lost the division that year (I think mainly because of that incident). Prior will be mainly remembered for one thing and one thing only until the Cubs make it to the World Series; game 6 of the 2003 NLCS. Buehrle hasn't had a defining moment yet, but constantly throwing 200-250 innings every year easily makes him a work horse who can anchor a rotation. In the end, Buehrle is a stud but still is a work in progress and Prior's still an incomplete.
Advantage: PUSH

2) Kerry Wood vs. Freddy Garcia. Kerry Wood's best season is still his rookie season. He hasn't won more than 14 games in his career and just doesn't seem to be consistent at all. Garcia has pitched in big games and has been very successful. Last year could have possibly been a bad year for him. He is a Cy Young calibur pitcher. Wood can also be dominant from time to time. However, he is well known for losing complete control of his pitches at any moment during a season. Garcia's playoff performance and Wood's inconsistency have me leaning towards the South.
Advantage: Garcia

3) Carlos Zambrano vs. Orlando Hernandez. Some may argue that Greg Maddux is the # 3 but I think Zambrano has pitched well enough to be considered the Cubs' ace and thus I make him the # 3. If we were doing a long-term comparison, Zambrano EASILY has the edge. However, I'm going to go ahead and say we are doing a short-term comparison because both teams want to win NOW. El Duque's performance in the playoffs last year and his overall season were pretty solid. Zambrano last year was LIGHTS OUT good. Having pitched in Yankee Stadium and being as successful as he is, Hernandez has earned the respect of a lot of people in and around the game. Once again we go back to Zambrano's performance in the 2003 playoffs, one word can describe his effort; horrendous. He simply ran out of gas as soon as he neared 200 IP for the year. In the end, it's still a toss up, but if the way Zambrano pitched last year is any indicator of how he can pitch in the future, than Zambrano has the edge. But if the way he pitched in the 2003 playoffs is an indicator of how he will perform in the playoffs, then Hernandez has the edge. The bottomline here is experience and performance in the playoffs. I know I'll get a lot of people on my back for this one, but once again, I'm going with our guy.
Advantage: Hernandez

4) Greg Maddux vs. Jose Contreras. Contreras tends to have lights out stuff and that's whay.... I'm kidding. Unless Maddux has a really bad year and loses it because of his age or whatever reason, he has the edge.
Advantage: Maddux.

5) Glendon Rusch vs. Jon Garland. Because most of sports fans have short term memory, almost all of them would choose Rusch because of his 2004 performance. Just look one year prior and you see that he was 1-12 with an ERA over 6. A year before that he lost 16 games. A year before he was a 8-12 pitcher. Garland, on the other hand, has consistently put up acceptable numbers (however he was pitched in the 3rd slot instead of the 5th where he is best suited). Over the past 3 years, he has averaged 12 wins and 12 losses with an average ERA near 4.60. If you ask me, 12-12, 4.60 from a # 5 are numbers I would gladly take.
Advantage: Garland.

So the cubs starters made it to the playoffs but preformed badley when our starters couldnt even do that much and didnt have the chance to suck. Your resoning is messed up. also, i would consider zambrano there #2. I would take all of em over el duque. Except rusch.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 07:39 PM
So the cubs starters made it to the playoffs but preformed badley when our starters couldnt even do that much and didnt have the chance to suck. Your resoning is messed up. also, i would consider zambrano there #2. I would take all of em over el duque. Except rusch. With what rotation? Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, Wright, and Schoenweis? Please!

What a change from last year's to this year's rotation. I gotta give KW his props, he made a hell of a change. But our offense (unless he brings in AJ and Cora or Iguchi) isn't looking as good.

We'll bring this up at year's end. I'm willing to put up cash that the Sox rotation as a unit has more wins than the Cubs'. Hell, I'm willing to put money that Contreras will have more wins than Maddux.

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 07:44 PM
We'll bring this up at year's end. I'm willing to put up cash that the Sox rotation as a unit has more wins than the Cubs'. Hell, I'm willing to put money that Contreras will have more wins than Maddux. I agree with you there but not because they are better, because our bullpen blow theres away.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 07:49 PM
I agree with you there but not because they are better, because our bullpen blow theres away.
lol, dammit shingo, u wont let me make my point.

ok, ill willing to bet that the Sox starting rotation will throw more innings, complete games, and shut outs (if any).

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 08:19 PM
Garland+Buehrle+Freddie= more than 200 innings each, i agree with you there. I bet we can also throw more complete games or just as many too so i agree with you there too.

johnny_mostil
12-31-2004, 08:21 PM
I'd put it this way:

Prior > Buehrle
Zambrano > Garcia
Wood > Hernandez
Maddux > Contreras
Garland >> Rusch (I don't see him repeating last year's stats)

The question comes down to, I think, whether you believe Wood and Prior will get 70 starts between them or 35. I think the answer will be closer to 35. A potential rotation is not what matters, what matters is who actually pitches.

BTW, in 2004, Buehrle grossly outpitched Prior. A sub-4 ERA in the Cell with the DH is more impressive than a 4.02 in the NL. Of course, Prior was hurt, and missed 13-odd starts. I believe Dusty Baker recklessly misused Prior and may will severely affect his career.

OurBitchinMinny
12-31-2004, 08:30 PM
all i know is that when prior is healthy and on, he is almost impossible to hit. When buerhle is on, teams will still get 5-8 hits off him. Im not saying that I dont like mark or deep down i love the cubs. Im just trying to look at it objectively, as if they were on two different teams and just saying who i would pick. Mark is more than a suitable #1 or #2. So is garcia for that matter.

Chisox003
12-31-2004, 08:41 PM
Garland+Buehrle+Freddie= more than 200 innings each, i agree with you there. I bet we can also throw more complete games or just as many too so i agree with you there too.
Buehrle is a #1 because of this...In the past 5 years, who has pitched the most innings in baseball? Yup, Buehrle (900+, I read it on another baseball site, sorry no link)....Hes an inning eater, and along with Garcia, and I guess you can throw Garland in there, and even Contreras IF hes on....

Our starters arent better than the Cubs, but because of the innings our guys can eat, that makes the bullpen that much more rested, healthier and therefore better, without even mentioning the talent the Sox have in the pen....Besides Zambrano, I dont see any SP in the Cubs rotation throwing as many innings as Buehrle or Garica, nor have they proven they have that ability....Starting Rotation goes to the Cubs, but the pitching staff as a whole has to go to the Sox....

Shingotime!!
12-31-2004, 09:11 PM
all i know is that when prior is healthy and on, he is almost impossible to hit. When buerhle is on, teams will still get 5-8 hits off him. Im not saying that I dont like mark or deep down i love the cubs. Im just trying to look at it objectively, as if they were on two different teams and just saying who i would pick. Mark is more than a suitable #1 or #2. So is garcia for that matter.


Prior is a power pitcher like Wood. Buehrle is a finess pitcher. Much less walks, lots of DP's.

WhiteSoxNation
01-01-2005, 01:07 AM
If we sign Vazquez (i hope not) we'd have the better rotaiton i think.

cubhater
01-01-2005, 03:14 AM
Its no contest who has the better rotation, the cubs. but i think our pitching staff as a whole is better. our bullpen in awsome and they have no closer.
Gotta agree that our overall staff is better but I'd give a slight edge to the Cub starters IF (and that's a big IF) they remain healthy.

JoseCanseco6969
01-01-2005, 04:52 PM
Out of curiousity only, why does this thread suck? :dunno:
I just found the question of who has the better rotation ridiculous since most people will agree that unfortunately the Cubs have the better rotation. We have a very good rotation if everyone stays healthy, but I just dont think head to head against the Cubs starters, they have the advantage. But we have them in bullpen, closer and offense.

Palehose13
01-01-2005, 05:19 PM
I voted for the cubs cause I think they do have a better rotation (when healthy). However, if you ask who has the better pitching staff, I think it is the Sox.

hose
01-01-2005, 05:29 PM
The Cubs have a much better starting staff , while the Sox have the superior bull pen.

As great of career that Maddux has had I would take El Duque over him in a big game. Just compare their track records in big games and it's just not White Sox cool-aid when I make that statement.

To be honest I would take Prior and Meathead (Zambrano) over any two of our pitchers. I would really like to see the Sox come up with a power pitcher that can just dominate good hitters. Contreras could fit that bill if he would just use his fastball more often.

The Cardinal fans probably agreed that the Cubs had the better starting staff over their club going into last season. And when it's all said and done in 2005 I think the Sox overall pitching staff will come out ahead of the Cubs. (adjusting for league differences)

*Keep and eye on Matt Clement's era this year in the AL

I want Mags back
01-01-2005, 05:37 PM
Cubs. Prior - Zambrano - Wood - Maddux - Rusch(?)

That is a hot rotation.
Zambrano has to be one of the most overated pitchers there is at the moment. If he was a Sox, no one would have heard of him

OEO Magglio
01-01-2005, 06:13 PM
Zambrano has to be one of the most overated pitchers there is at the moment. If he was a Sox, no one would have heard of him
Zambrano is a stud, Wood on the other hand is definitely one of the most overrated pitchers in baseball.

Takatsufan
01-01-2005, 09:47 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the cubs performed in interleague play last year? That may hold the final answer to who is better.