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View Full Version : Dick Allen for Hall of Fame


Takatsufan
12-30-2004, 08:37 PM
Dick Allen can be voted into the Hall of Fame by the Veteran's Committee. He has a decent chance to get in. So does Minnie Minoso.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/veterans/2005/2005_vc_candidates.htm

http://www.prosportsmemorabilia.com/Images/Product/33-24/33-24611-P.jpg (javascript:void(0))

DickAllen72
12-30-2004, 10:08 PM
In 1972, Dick Allen was my baseball Hero!

I've never seen anyone hit harder line drive home runs to the deepest parts of Old Comiskey Park. Right-center field over the temporary 400ft centerfield fence and over the original wall into the stands.

Yeah! Dick Allen, Hall of Fame!!! :bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

Brian26
12-30-2004, 10:31 PM
Dick Allen had a couple of nice years for the Sox and a nice little career overall, but there's no way in hell he exhibited the longevity or consistent production over the course of his career to be in the Hall. I just disagree.

Nellie_Fox
12-30-2004, 11:59 PM
I truly hope that Minnie gets in. He meant so much to baseball for so long.

As for Allen, his career stats are borderline, at best, for HOF. His good years were monster (especially for the era; remember, he won a home run championship with 37 in 1972) but there just weren't enough of them. On the other hand, if you go to baseball-reference.com, his comparable stats by age show some pretty good comparisons, including Willy Mays, Gary Sheffield, and Willie Stargell.

Keep in mind, he'd almost certainly go in with a Phillies cap on his plaque, not a Sox cap. Minnie would just as certainly go in as a Sox.

owensmouth
12-31-2004, 02:36 AM
I always remember that he dumped on the White Sox. Walked out on the team in the middle of the season. He quit on us. We shouldn't support him on the HOF.

idseer
12-31-2004, 07:42 AM
I truly hope that Minnie gets in. He meant so much to baseball for so long.

As for Allen, his career stats are borderline, at best, for HOF. His good years were monster (especially for the era; remember, he won a home run championship with 37 in 1972) but there just weren't enough of them. On the other hand, if you go to baseball-reference.com, his comparable stats by age show some pretty good comparisons, including Willy Mays, Gary Sheffield, and Willie Stargell.

Keep in mind, he'd almost certainly go in with a Phillies cap on his plaque, not a Sox cap. Minnie would just as certainly go in as a Sox.
baseball ref .com actually shows minoso's numbers are not really hof material:

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 15 (146) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 189 (46) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards): Batting - 35.1 (191) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 81.0 (200) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

well out in 3 of the 4 catagories for hof 'ers.

otoh, allens is definitely hof material:

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 27 (66) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 159 (71) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards): Batting - 38.7 (156) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 99.0 (143) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

3 of the 4 catagories fall right in the average for hof 'ers.
his only questionable catagory is hof standards which has to do with longevity as much as anything else.

SOXintheBURGH
12-31-2004, 08:22 AM
I always remember that he dumped on the White Sox. Walked out on the team in the middle of the season. He quit on us. We shouldn't support him on the HOF.
I also remember reading that he spend time in Philly, LA, and other places that he hated playing, but said he finally found a home in the South Side and loved playing here.

Baby Fisk
12-31-2004, 08:26 AM
Don't forget former Sox infielder Ron Santo. That man was a gazelle.

TornLabrum
12-31-2004, 08:38 AM
baseball ref .com actually shows minoso's numbers are not really hof material:

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 15 (146) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 189 (46) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards): Batting - 35.1 (191) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 81.0 (200) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

well out in 3 of the 4 catagories for hof 'ers.

otoh, allens is definitely hof material:

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 27 (66) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 159 (71) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards): Batting - 38.7 (156) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 99.0 (143) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

3 of the 4 catagories fall right in the average for hof 'ers.
his only questionable catagory is hof standards which has to do with longevity as much as anything else.
Of course you realize that Minoso was 28 years old his "rookie" year, and that he was held in Cleveland's farm system for 2-3 years after his major league debut. Years ago Bill James back projected his stats and came up with several HOF milestones he might have accomplished but for segregation, including 3000 hits.

Dan H
12-31-2004, 08:53 AM
If Dick Allen played to his true potential, he would have been in the Hall of Fame long time ago. In my opinion, he was the most talented player to put on a Sox uniform. But he ruined his chances because he never could concentrate on playing baseball. There were times he got the shaft, no doubt, but he brought many troubles on himself. Also in his three years on the White Sox, he was never with the team at season's end. In 1972, Chuck Tanner let him go home early after the the Sox had been eliminated from the division race. In 1973, Allen was injured. Allen then "retired" in 1974 a couple of weeks before the season ended. He was loved by Sox fans. We didn't deserve this.

idseer
12-31-2004, 12:55 PM
Of course you realize that Minoso was 28 years old his "rookie" year, and that he was held in Cleveland's farm system for 2-3 years after his major league debut. Years ago Bill James back projected his stats and came up with several HOF milestones he might have accomplished but for segregation, including 3000 hits.
i understand this. josh gibson didn't get a shot at all. should we still consider him? my point being the hof, for what it's worth, has standards that are either met or aren't. minnie, even tho he got a bit of the shaft just doesn't have the numbers.


ps ... if it were up to me i would completely revamp the hof. as it stands it isn't worth much.

TornLabrum
12-31-2004, 01:37 PM
i understand this. josh gibson didn't get a shot at all. should we still consider him? my point being the hof, for what it's worth, has standards that are either met or aren't. minnie, even tho he got a bit of the shaft just doesn't have the numbers.


ps ... if it were up to me i would completely revamp the hof. as it stands it isn't worth much.Josh Gibson was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1972. I guess that means Minnie should be, right?

Here is the link to his plaque:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/plaques/gibson_josh.htm

idseer
12-31-2004, 02:07 PM
Josh Gibson was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1972. I guess that means Minnie should be, right?

Here is the link to his plaque:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/plaques/gibson_josh.htm :D:

now that you mention it, i do recall this. but it only furthers my point about the hof being a joke. a player can get in without ever having played mlb.

if it's strictly a hall of 'fame' then stick to it. babe ruth is fine, hank aaron is fine, but let's include only the famous players then. let's induct eddie gaedel, mark 'the bird' fidrych, etc. and let's remove jake beckley, kid nichols, etc.

if it's supposed to be guys we think would have been great let's include sadaharu oh, buck weaver, jim thorpe etc.

but if it's pretending to be a hall of the greatest major league players then let's stick with guys who's numbers and time played 'prove' they're among the best for their lifetimes. the way it's done now is stupid and unfair (writers voting for one thing).... ok, no surprise.

minnie is close, and perhaps deserves to be recognized on some level or tier of a hall of fame', but he's not an all time great.

TDog
12-31-2004, 02:44 PM
If Dick Allen played to his true potential, he would have been in the Hall of Fame long time ago. In my opinion, he was the most talented player to put on a Sox uniform. But he ruined his chances because he never could concentrate on playing baseball. There were times he got the shaft, no doubt, but he brought many troubles on himself. Also in his three years on the White Sox, he was never with the team at season's end. In 1972, Chuck Tanner let him go home early after the the Sox had been eliminated from the division race. In 1973, Allen was injured. Allen then "retired" in 1974 a couple of weeks before the season ended. He was loved by Sox fans. We didn't deserve this.
You nailed it. Allen also had problems of some kind everywhere else he played. With the Sox, he played like a HOFer -- in 1972. That's how I remember him as one of the most awesome hitters I've ever seen.

I don't think Ron Santo belongs either. It would be sweet, though, to reunite Allen and Santo, the right side of the Sox infield for many games in 1974, on the Cooperstown platform. They could hug, with paramedics standing by.

Really, it was special that the two could come together for at least part of a year on the south side. Allen and Santo had already tied for the National League lead a decade earlier. But I think Allen was always the speedier of the two. Santo only had one inside-the-park home run for the Sox, while Allen hit two in a single game.

Both had their career highlights, but neither had HOF careers.

TornLabrum
12-31-2004, 05:23 PM
I make two exceptions for players whose statistics fall short of those you'd expect for a HOFer:

1) Players whose careers were interrupted by WWII. The "what might have been" here was a national emergency, total war. That's different from an injury, or any other individual cause of not accumulating the traditional numbers.

2) Players who were systematically excluded from major league baseball due to racism. This includes the old Negro League players like Gibson who weren't given a chance, and those like Minoso who got the chance but too late in life to accumulate HOF stats.
I don't think that including either of these groups diminishes the stature of the Hall. On the other hand, omitting them certainly does.

Deadguy
12-31-2004, 06:35 PM
I definitely think he belongs. His adjusted OPS of 155 is outstanding, and Hall worthy.

I do remember, however, reading a Bill James quote in which he described Richie's how racial devisiveness in the clubhouse tore teams apart, and was enough justification to keep him out of the Hall.

Just doing some google research, I found these rather interesting quotes about Dick Allen and his clubhouse presence, and just copy and pasted the following for those who care:



Roland Hemond:


"He came in with a tremendous amount of respect from our players,
and that was always there. He was a very analytical player with
a great memory for past situations. A smart player, an outstanding
baserunner. I'll never forget him, and I'll always be grateful to
him."


Chuck Tanner:


"Dick was the leader of our team, the captain, the manager on the
field. He took care of the young kids, took them under his wing.
And he played every game as if it was his last day on earth."


Danny Ozark:


"...he did a lot of good things that nobody saw. He helped other
players. He liked to help the young guys. He helped Mike Schmidt
more than anyone. Mike will back that up. He got people talking
in the dugout--what a pitcher was doing, base running. He made
them think."


Gene Mauch:


"I've never been in contact with a greater talent. He was held in
absolute awe by every player in the league. He had tremendous power. He had a great feel for the game, and he was one of the finest base- runners [...] that I ever saw. If I was managing California today,
and Allen was in his prime, I'd take him in a minute."


"...he wasn't doing anything to hurt [his teammates] play of the game,
and he didn't involve his teammates in his problems. When he was
personally rebellious, he didn't try to bring other players into it."


"His teammates always like him. You could go forever and not meet a
more charming fellow."


Red Schoendienst:


"He was great in our clubhouse. He got along with everybody. He
wasn't a rah-rah guy, but he came to play. They respected him, and
they liked him."


Pat Corrales:
"[I] played for him and against him, and on the field he gave 100%.
He was ready for the game, and he played it to the max. It wasn't
just raw talent, either. He knew how to play [...] We knew that if
everyone played the way he did, there wouldn't be many losses. That's what mattered to us."

Lip Man 1
12-31-2004, 07:32 PM
TDog says: "I don't think Ron Santo belongs either. It would be sweet, though, to reunite Allen and Santo, the right side of the Sox infield for many games in 1974, on the Cooperstown platform."
Huh? Santo was a DH not a second baseman.

Also for the most complete biography on Dick Allen, try this at WSI:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2065

Lip

ode to veeck
12-31-2004, 07:48 PM
Josh Gibson absolutely deserves his spot in the HOF. I would love to see Minnie get in. I think he also played a bunch of years in Cuba or the Mexican leagues after MLB as well.

That's actually a pretty impressive list for the vets committee. My other personal favorites besides Minnie and Dick Allen would be Louis Tiant, one tough pitcher for many years.

TommyJohn
12-31-2004, 08:48 PM
TDog says: "I don't think Ron Santo belongs either. It would be sweet, though, to reunite Allen and Santo, the right side of the Sox infield for many games in 1974, on the Cooperstown platform."
Huh? Santo was a DH not a second baseman.

Also for the most complete biography on Dick Allen, try this at WSI:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2065

Lip
Santo actually played 39 games at second base for the White Sox in 1974.

Nellie_Fox
12-31-2004, 11:55 PM
Huh? Santo was a DH not a second baseman.I came very close to making the same mistaken post, but since my memory has failed me so often lately (making me look like a boob) that I figured I'd better check first. He was most often a DH that year, but played more games at second than at third.

JKryl
01-01-2005, 12:05 AM
I make two exceptions for players whose statistics fall short of those you'd expect for a HOFer:

1) Players whose careers were interrupted by WWII. The "what might have been" here was a national emergency, total war. That's different from an injury, or any other individual cause of not accumulating the traditional numbers.

2) Players who were systematically excluded from major league baseball due to racism. This includes the old Negro League players like Gibson who weren't given a chance, and those like Minoso who got the chance but too late in life to accumulate HOF stats.
I don't think that including either of these groups diminishes the stature of the Hall. On the other hand, omitting them certainly does.
Great points. I couldn't have said it better myself. Watching Minnie playing in the 50's, 60's, 70's etc., I think he's one player who certainly deserves attention.

Wsoxmike59
01-01-2005, 09:41 AM
Here is my top 10 Players that should be in the Hall of Fame but Aren't!!

1) Bert Blyleven
2) Tommy John
3) Jim Rice
4) Ron Santo
5) Dick Allen
6) Bill Buckner
7) Vada Pinson
8) Billy Pierce
9) Minnie Minoso
10) Harold Baines

idseer
01-01-2005, 10:22 AM
I make two exceptions for players whose statistics fall short of those you'd expect for a HOFer:

1) Players whose careers were interrupted by WWII. The "what might have been" here was a national emergency, total war. That's different from an injury, or any other individual cause of not accumulating the traditional numbers.

2) Players who were systematically excluded from major league baseball due to racism. This includes the old Negro League players like Gibson who weren't given a chance, and those like Minoso who got the chance but too late in life to accumulate HOF stats.
I don't think that including either of these groups diminishes the stature of the Hall. On the other hand, omitting them certainly does.
looks like you have a lot of folks on your side, but i still prefer the entrance qualifications not being so arbitrary. i don't feel it should just allow a bunch of fan favorites. it takes away from the truly remarkable player.
the what might have beens, unfortunately, are just sol.

oldcomiskey
01-01-2005, 10:59 AM
I always remember that he dumped on the White Sox. Walked out on the team in the middle of the season. He quit on us. We shouldn't support him on the HOF.
Do you also remeber that he almost single handedly saved a franchise--and had a broken leg to boot----maybe he felt he couldnt compete on a level that was comfortable to him,.. One way to start a fight with me is talk about Dick Allen

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 11:14 AM
baseball ref .com actually shows minoso's numbers are not really hof material:

Neither were Josh Gibson's, or Oscar Charleston's, since they never got to play in the majors due to bigotry. The numbers don't understand Jim Crow, or the park effects in Old Comiskey. Minoso is a stronger candidate than Monte Irvin was, and if he'd played in New York he'd have been enshrined in the 1970s. Of course, Chicago is where Ron Santo played, and while he was a better third baseman than half the HOF, he has never made it, either.

TornLabrum
01-01-2005, 12:39 PM
looks like you have a lot of folks on your side, but i still prefer the entrance qualifications not being so arbitrary. i don't feel it should just allow a bunch of fan favorites. it takes away from the truly remarkable player.
the what might have beens, unfortunately, are just sol.
So exactly who is the HOF for if you don't want "fan favorites" in it?

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 01:45 PM
So exactly who is the HOF for if you don't want "fan favorites" in it?

BRAVO! They don't call it the "Hall of Merit" or the "Hall of Productivity" or the "Hall of Efficacy", it's the "Hall of Fame". So, isn't the true test of a HOFfer, therefore, "famousness", that is, "celebrity"? That is, isn't a HOFfer one who has "wide recognition"? Given that baseball is at heart an entertainment industry, and fan favorites are the ones doing much of the "entertainment", that certainly should be considered when selecting HOFfers?

Sometimes we do make allowances for people who were prevented from achieving their fame by injustice; but generally, HOFfers are the players we fans talked about and, usually, rooted for, aren't they?

I just don't see us fans flocking to the "Hall of Horses' Hindquarters" with plaques of Hal Chase and Dick Allen and Albert Belle snarling back at us.

idseer
01-01-2005, 01:56 PM
So exactly who is the HOF for if you don't want "fan favorites" in it?
i thought i addressed that in post #13 of this thread. i understand there is no good definition of what constitutes a hof'er.
if it's strictly about fan favorites then by all means vote in every teams most popular players. i 'd be voting in minoso, pierce, lollar, landis, lemon, peters, horlen, dropo, pizarro, etc. and those are just the guys from what i consider MY golden era.

fact is, i would punt the hof altogether. it would be replaced with a better system (not perfect, but better) that had different levels of recognition. i have seen a few examples of this and, while i know it will never happen, it would be a much fairer system.

as it stands you have a system where gary carter is on an equal footing with hank aaron or babe ruth. it's absurd.

TDog
01-01-2005, 02:02 PM
TDog says: "I don't think Ron Santo belongs either. It would be sweet, though, to reunite Allen and Santo, the right side of the Sox infield for many games in 1974, on the Cooperstown platform."
Huh? Santo was a DH not a second baseman....
Lip
I was going from memory. I attended maybe 20 games in 1974, and Santo played second in most of those. I didn't go to the trouble to check to see if he was playing second or DHing the Sunday afternoon he hit the inside-the-park home run. You may be right in saying he wasn't a second-baseman. He may have been a DH playing second. But he wasn't much of a hitter either.

Cute obscure points aside, what Allen and Santo have in common besides the right side of the infield on a .500 Sox team (80 wins, 80 losses and 3 ties) is that neither belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Johnny Mostil
01-01-2005, 02:11 PM
2) Players who were systematically excluded from major league baseball due to racism. This includes the old Negro League players like Gibson who weren't given a chance, and those like Minoso who got the chance but too late in life to accumulate HOF stats.
I don't think that including either of these groups diminishes the stature of the Hall. On the other hand, omitting them certainly does.

Yep. There's also another way of looking at this (not that I'm advocating it). Should Cobb or Ruth or Maranville (!) or any player whose "major" league career ended before Robinson broke the color barrier be in the HoF? Or, as implied of Minoso and Gibson in another post, should they have been considered "sol" for not having had the opportunity to prove their greatness against *all* the greatest players of the day, both in the "major" leagues and in the Negro Leagues? I don't understand penalizing Minoso or Gibson for not having had the opportunity to compete against all the best players of their day but giving a pass to pre-'47 HoFers who also didn't do so.

TommyJohn
01-01-2005, 02:12 PM
The debate will rage on. I discovered this cool website put up by a Dick Allen fan. This guy grew up a White Sox fan, then later switched to the Phillies. (He must not like himself very much.)

Link:

www.expressfan.com/dickallenhof/ (http://www.expressfan.com/dickallenhof/)

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 02:15 PM
I was going from memory. I attended maybe 20 games in 1974, and Santo played second in most of those. I didn't go to the trouble to check to see if he was playing second or DHing the Sunday afternoon he hit the inside-the-park home run. You may be right in saying he wasn't a second-baseman. He may have been a DH playing second. But he wasn't much of a hitter either.

Santo played 39 games at second in 1974. He was actually decent at it. He DH'd in 47 games.

He hit 5 homers in 1974, four while playing 2B, one while playing 3rd.

Tuesday, April 30, vs Baltimore (2B)
Saturday, June 8, vs Boston (2B)
Sunday, June 9, vs Boston, 2 (2B)
Monday. June 24, vs KC (3B)

Retrosheet doesn't tell whether either of the two homers in the 10-6 loss to Boston on 6/9/74 were inside the park.

TornLabrum
01-01-2005, 02:51 PM
i thought i addressed that in post #13 of this thread. i understand there is no good definition of what constitutes a hof'er.
if it's strictly about fan favorites then by all means vote in every teams most popular players. i 'd be voting in minoso, pierce, lollar, landis, lemon, peters, horlen, dropo, pizarro, etc. and those are just the guys from what i consider MY golden era.

fact is, i would punt the hof altogether. it would be replaced with a better system (not perfect, but better) that had different levels of recognition. i have seen a few examples of this and, while i know it will never happen, it would be a much fairer system.

as it stands you have a system where gary carter is on an equal footing with hank aaron or babe ruth. it's absurd.
Bill James suggested such a system about 20 years ago.

idseer
01-01-2005, 02:52 PM
Yep. There's also another way of looking at this (not that I'm advocating it). Should Cobb or Ruth or Maranville (!) or any player whose "major" league career ended before Robinson broke the color barrier be in the HoF? Or, as implied of Minoso and Gibson in another post, should they have been considered "sol" for not having had the opportunity to prove their greatness against *all* the greatest players of the day, both in the "major" leagues and in the Negro Leagues? I don't understand penalizing Minoso or Gibson for not having had the opportunity to compete against all the best players of their day but giving a pass to pre-'47 HoFers who also didn't do so.
you have a point, however, the hof was created during the 'color barrier' time for the players of the day and therefore it pertains to those players specifically.

and btw, minoso isn't being penalized for anything. he's simply not being elected to a hall of fame. as he might say ... it's no skin off his nose.
you might even ask, why would he WANT to be elected to a group who didn't compete with *all* the greatest players?

as i keep saying, the hof as it stands is a joke and should be dismantled.

TornLabrum
01-01-2005, 02:54 PM
Yep. There's also another way of looking at this (not that I'm advocating it). Should Cobb or Ruth or Maranville (!) or any player whose "major" league career ended before Robinson broke the color barrier be in the HoF? Or, as implied of Minoso and Gibson in another post, should they have been considered "sol" for not having had the opportunity to prove their greatness against *all* the greatest players of the day, both in the "major" leagues and in the Negro Leagues? I don't understand penalizing Minoso or Gibson for not having had the opportunity to compete against all the best players of their day but giving a pass to pre-'47 HoFers who also didn't do so.
I don't buy that either. The players should be recognized for the conditions that prevailed at the time they played. Opening the Hall to the Negro Leagues players at least did something, although I think probably inadequately to this point, to counteract the pre-Robinson MLB players who have been honored.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 03:36 PM
I don't buy that either. The players should be recognized for the conditions that prevailed at the time they played. Opening the Hall to the Negro Leagues players at least did something, although I think probably inadequately to this point, to counteract the pre-Robinson MLB players who have been honored.
Further, while we can assume most of the major leaguers of the 1880s-1947 era approved of the segregation policy, we don't know that, and you can't punish Honus Wagner because Cap Anson was a pig.

Johnny Mostil
01-01-2005, 04:10 PM
I don't buy that either. The players should be recognized for the conditions that prevailed at the time they played. Opening the Hall to the Negro Leagues players at least did something, although I think probably inadequately to this point, to counteract the pre-Robinson MLB players who have been honored.
I'm not saying it should be the case, but I don't understand why the segregated conditions are rarely, if ever, considered to have affected the quality of pre-'47 records. Compare with recent tripe (cf. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1745899) speculating on Ruth's steroid usage. Now how can such mindless (IMHO) speculation be published but the possibility that segregated competition might have tainted Ruth's records rarely, if ever, be considered?

TornLabrum
01-01-2005, 04:19 PM
I'm not saying it should be the case, but I don't understand why the segregated conditions are rarely, if ever, considered to have affected the quality of pre-'47 records. Compare with recent tripe (cf. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1745899) speculating on Ruth's steroid usage. Now how can such mindless (IMHO) speculation be published but the possibility that segregated competition might have tainted Ruth's records rarely, if ever, be considered?
Interestingly enough there were rumors at the time that Babe Ruth was actually black and that he was passing.

Lip Man 1
01-01-2005, 09:51 PM
Santo's inside the park home run was on 6/9/74 in the 5th inning off Bill Lee.

Lip

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 10:00 PM
Santo's inside the park home run was on 6/9/74 in the 5th inning off Bill Lee.

Lip
Only my White Sox could get two homers from Ron Santo, including an ITPHR, and lose 10-6.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 10:07 PM
baseball ref .com actually shows minoso's numbers are not really hof material:

3 of the 4 catagories fall right in the average for hof 'ers.
his only questionable catagory is hof standards which has to do with longevity as much as anything else.
Those numbers and formulas, by the way, are from Bill James' classic book The Politics of Glory, where he was attempting to figure out not who belongs in the HOF but rather what characteristics are actually used to select players for the HOF, and to see if there was some kind of rational process at work.

I can't imagine that anyone out there seriously would get upset if Minnie Minoso got selected by the VC.

idseer
01-01-2005, 10:11 PM
Those numbers and formulas, by the way, are from Bill James' classic book The Politics of Glory, where he was attempting to figure out not who belongs in the HOF but rather what characteristics are actually used to select players for the HOF, and to see if there was some kind of rational process at work.

I can't imagine that anyone out there seriously would get upset if Minnie Minoso got selected by the VC.
upset? no.

it's just more of an insult than anything else imo. the fact that nellie fox didn't get elected the normal way still bugs me. there's a reason they call it the back door.

Nellie_Fox
01-02-2005, 02:03 AM
Compare with recent tripe (cf. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1745899) speculating on Ruth's steroid usage.That was just Jeff Kent showing how stupid he is. First of all, Kent didn't say "steroid," he said "performance enhancing." Anabolic steroids didn't exist in Ruth's day. The Babe's performance enhancers were, from all reports, beer, hotdogs, and cigars. Heck, all the way into the sixties, the common perception in baseball was that even lifting weights would make you "muscle-bound" and adversely affect your ability to hit a baseball.

There is absolutely no question that today's records are tainted by drugs. You have to look at a player compared to the players of his era to determine his greatness. I'd be interested to see what would happen if they put the pitcher's mound back up where it used to be.

RedPinStripes
01-02-2005, 02:23 AM
I definitely think he belongs. His adjusted OPS of 155 is outstanding, and Hall worthy.

I do remember, however, reading a Bill James quote in which he described Richie's how racial devisiveness in the clubhouse tore teams apart, and was enough justification to keep him out of the Hall.

Just doing some google research, I found these rather interesting quotes about Dick Allen and his clubhouse presence, and just copy and pasted the following for those who care:



Roland Hemond:


"He came in with a tremendous amount of respect from our players,
and that was always there. He was a very analytical player with
a great memory for past situations. A smart player, an outstanding
baserunner. I'll never forget him, and I'll always be grateful to
him."


Chuck Tanner:


"Dick was the leader of our team, the captain, the manager on the
field. He took care of the young kids, took them under his wing.
And he played every game as if it was his last day on earth."


Danny Ozark:


"...he did a lot of good things that nobody saw. He helped other
players. He liked to help the young guys. He helped Mike Schmidt
more than anyone. Mike will back that up. He got people talking
in the dugout--what a pitcher was doing, base running. He made
them think."


Gene Mauch:


"I've never been in contact with a greater talent. He was held in
absolute awe by every player in the league. He had tremendous power. He had a great feel for the game, and he was one of the finest base- runners [...] that I ever saw. If I was managing California today,
and Allen was in his prime, I'd take him in a minute."


"...he wasn't doing anything to hurt [his teammates] play of the game,
and he didn't involve his teammates in his problems. When he was
personally rebellious, he didn't try to bring other players into it."


"His teammates always like him. You could go forever and not meet a
more charming fellow."


Red Schoendienst:


"He was great in our clubhouse. He got along with everybody. He
wasn't a rah-rah guy, but he came to play. They respected him, and
they liked him."


Pat Corrales:
"[I] played for him and against him, and on the field he gave 100%.
He was ready for the game, and he played it to the max. It wasn't
just raw talent, either. He knew how to play [...] We knew that if
everyone played the way he did, there wouldn't be many losses. That's what mattered to us."
Many positive things to say about Dick there, but they left out the parts where Dick would leave the season early and head for the track when the Sox were out of it. Dick allen could have been a much better player if his social life wasnt in the way.

PaulDrake
01-02-2005, 01:51 PM
Here is my top 10 Players that should be in the Hall of Fame but Aren't!!

1) Bert Blyleven
2) Tommy John
3) Jim Rice
4) Ron Santo
5) Dick Allen
6) Bill Buckner
7) Vada Pinson
8) Billy Pierce
9) Minnie Minoso
10) Harold Baines If you were here right now I'd buy you a beer.:gulp: I like your list an awful lot although I wouldn't have them ranked in quite the same order if in fact that's what you've done. Baseball has a number of turkeys in its HOF and a number of forgotten players. Thanks for remembering some of the more prominent of those forgotten and overlooked ones. I hope they know that some of us older fans remember and appreciate them.

TheBull19
01-03-2005, 09:03 PM
:D:

now that you mention it, i do recall this. but it only furthers my point about the hof being a joke. a player can get in without ever having played mlb.


That's a messed up point of view. The negro league players deserve the recognition, and that league was just as good as mlb. If anything, the pre-integration players should be disqualified since they weren't playing the best players, if you want to take an angle like that.

TheBull19
01-03-2005, 09:11 PM
Anabolic steroids didn't exist in Ruth's day. The Babe's performance enhancers were, from all reports, beer, hotdogs, and cigars.
Actually, it's quite likely Ruth and his contemporaries enhanced performance through the use of cocaine, considering it was widely used by ballplayers around the turn of the century, and not fully criminalized until 1925. His personality would indicate a person who enjoyed a bit of the powder, as well.

TommyJohn
01-03-2005, 10:30 PM
That's a messed up point of view. The negro league players deserve the recognition, and that league was just as good as mlb. If anything, the pre-integration players should be disqualified since they weren't playing the best players, if you want to take an angle like that.
That's bad reasoning. You could also say let's disqualify the pre-integration
Negro Leaguers because they weren't playing against the best of the best
either. You can go around and around about this for days.

SoxFan76
01-03-2005, 10:50 PM
It's the baseball hall of fame. Not the MLB Hall of fame.

Nellie_Fox
01-03-2005, 11:05 PM
It's the baseball hall of fame. Not the MLB Hall of fame.I was going to say the same thing, based on the name, but I decided that I should go look at their website before I said anything. I found the Rules for Election, and the first one (you must meet all the criteria) said

A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election. The veteran's committee's rules state (A) Major League players who competed in any portion of at least ten (10) championship seasons and who have been retired as players for at least twenty-one (21) years. In addition, players whose service in the Negro Baseball Leagues prior to 1946 and the Major Leagues thereafter total at least ten years or portions thereof are defined as eligible candidates. So, you see, you must have been a major leaguer, with the negro leagues being the only exception.

SoxFan76
01-03-2005, 11:09 PM
Nellie,

Thanks. I did not know that. But when you hear the Hall of Fame mentioned, it is referred to as the Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the Major League Baseball HOF.

They shouldn't make the negro leagues an "exception", they should just say it's the Baseball HOF and include all baseball leauges, including the pre-1900 teams and players.

Expressfan
01-20-2005, 08:41 PM
The debate will rage on. I discovered this cool website put up by a Dick Allen fan. This guy grew up a White Sox fan, then later switched to the Phillies. (He must not like himself very much.)

Link:

www.expressfan.com/dickallenhof/ (http://www.expressfan.com/dickallenhof/)


For the record, I like myself plenty. I am still a quiet White Sox fan. The fact is: as a kid I didn't quite understand the concept of "rooting for a uniform" -- In 1975, when Dick Allen went back to the Phillies I naturally became a Phillies fan because Dick Allen was my favorite player. The current era of free agency and frequent player movement makes the favorite player concept pretty hard.

Regarding Dick Allen. Despite his impressive numbers, I understand it is unlikely he will get enshrined in the the baseball HOF. I am just one fan, but to me, he was the BEST.

Thanks for posing my site. If any SOX fans out there have good Dick Allen photos or stuff, feel free to send it my way.

JUribe1989
01-20-2005, 09:46 PM
Minnie deserves it, he epitomizes what baseball is. He is a hard worker who loved the game so much that he couldn't leave it for so long.

:minnie

I_Liked_Manuel
01-21-2005, 01:27 AM
when i was waiting to get into soxfest on friday night, there was a guy handing out flyers to petition to get dick allen in the hall of fame. did anybody else get one of these, they're pretty funny.

Expressfan
01-21-2005, 08:44 AM
when i was waiting to get into soxfest on friday night, there was a guy handing out flyers to petition to get dick allen in the hall of fame. did anybody else get one of these, they're pretty funny.

Chances are his name was Ziff Sistrunk. He is a frequent visitor to my web site. He claims to be a former White Sox batboy. You can read about his plans @ http://eteamz.active.com/dickallen

TommyJohn
01-21-2005, 09:38 AM
For the record, I like myself plenty. I am still a quiet White Sox fan. The fact is: as a kid I didn't quite understand the concept of "rooting for a uniform" -- In 1975, when Dick Allen went back to the Phillies I naturally became a Phillies fan because Dick Allen was my favorite player. The current era of free agency and frequent player movement makes the favorite player concept pretty hard.

Regarding Dick Allen. Despite his impressive numbers, I understand it is unlikely he will get enshrined in the the baseball HOF. I am just one fan, but to me, he was the BEST.

Thanks for posing my site. If any SOX fans out there have good Dick Allen photos or stuff, feel free to send it my way.

You have a great site, Expressfan. And my comment was meant tongue-in-
cheek. I hope I didn't offend you.

Lip Man 1
01-21-2005, 12:44 PM
Dick Allen fans may want to examine these two features:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2065

http://www.chicago-baseball-photos.com/a/allendick/index.htm

Lip

Dadawg_77
01-21-2005, 01:19 PM
1> No one really know Minnie's true age. People say he was a 28 year old rookie but in an interview he said he was 25 at when he broke in the league. Some people speculate that Minnie is lying now to cover up a lie he told to his wife when they first met. I don't know what is the truth, but the answer does affect the way one interpets Minnie's numbers.

2> It is the National Baseball Hall Fame. With it not being the MLB Hall Fame, it is free to change the selection criteria as it sees fit. I would consider the Negro Leagues the equivlate of Major League Baseball, since the whole concept of the separation was "separate but equal." Saying players like Gibson don't merit selection into the Hall Fame only compounds problems created by "separate but equal" way of thinking.

3> Dick Allen put number that would make him a marginal Hall of Famer, he could have done more but didn't. He makes the White Sox Hall of Fame but not sure about the National Hall of Fame. If I had a vote, I would say no since I don't think you should be a marginal Hall of Famer.