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JoseCanseco6969
12-30-2004, 01:46 AM
Question for anyone who knows. I was reading an copy of sports illustrated, and came across an article of franchises that have moved in baseball. It was displayed on a map and showed that the White Sox were originally from Minnesota known as the Millers. Maybe I just missed this part of my Sox history class or something, but this was a total shock to me. I tried looking up this in a search but I cant seem to find a clear answer. I keep seeing that they came from a st paul franchise that was bought by comiskey but havent found a direct link to them. I appreciate any replies that might clarify this, thanks!

doublem23
12-30-2004, 02:13 AM
I've never heard of that. The White Sox franchise was located in the Twin Cities; Charles Comiskey moved his St. Paul team to Chicago in 1900, while still in the Western League, and then became a charter member of the American League in 1901 (of which, only 3 others still remain). The only other move I've ever heard the franchise make was from Sioux City (:?:... maybe, not 100% sure on the town) to St. Paul. But that would have been, at the very least in the mid 1890s.

SoxFan76
12-30-2004, 02:15 AM
I thought they were the St. Paul Saints.

TDog
12-30-2004, 02:47 AM
I thought they were the St. Paul Saints.
According to "The American League Story" by Lee Allen (Hill and Wang, 1965) Charles Comiskey moved his Western League St. Paul team to Chicago before the 1900 season as the circuit changed its name to the American League. In 1900, the old Western League/new American League still had a team in Minneapolis. The following year, the league declared itself a major league, moving teams into Eastern cities, but it isn't clear which team the Minneapolis evolved into.

doublem23
12-30-2004, 03:04 AM
Baseball history around that time is sometimes hard to keep up with. As best I can tell, the Minneapolis Millers remained in the Western League/American League in 1900 (reference (http://stewthornley.net/millers_year_by_year.html)), but when the American League was founded as another Major League, it looks as if the Millers were dropped to add teams in eastern cities that had recently lost their National League teams (Washington, Baltimore, and Cleveland). As the link shows, the Millers existed for another few decades in minor leagues before being forced out the door by the Twins.

TornLabrum
12-30-2004, 07:06 AM
The Western League was founded by Ban Johnson and Charles Comiskey in November 1893. Comiskey was unable to start a franchise because he was still a player-manager with the Reds. The Sioux City franchise was awarded to a businessman named H.H. Drale or H.H. Drake (depending on what source you read).

After the 1894 season, Comiskey retired from the National League and bought the Sioux City franchise. He moved it to St. Paul. The team was known as the "Saints," the same as the current Northern League team.

Comiskey and Johnson's goal was always to build a league to challenge the monolithic National League, which in the 1890s had 12 teams (and no divisions...those who would like to see the end of division play should take a look at the attendance of the clubs that were out of the races in that league). Their opportunity came when the NL decided to cut back to 8 teams after the 1899 season.

One of the cities that Johnson and Comiskey had on their hit list was Chicago. There had been abortive attempts, one by Cap Anson, to found other leagues and place teams in Chicago, but those died on the vine because the challenge was overt.

In the case of the Western League, they still abided by the National Agreement which gave the NL rights to buy players, etc. It took Comiskey and Johnson quite a bit of time to convince the Colts' owner to allow them to locate in Chicago. They finally agreed to not locate the ball park north of 35th St. (they played on 39th St.--now Pershing Road--between Wentworth and Princeton) and not use the name "Chicago" in the team name.

What Comiskey did was name the team the White Stockings, the original name of the Colts franchise. (The Colts were becoming known at this point as the Orphans or Remnants due to the loss of Anson.)

The league was renamed the American League for the 1900 season. Then in 1901 Comiskey and Johnson moved other clubs into NL cities, and abrogated the National Agreement, ignoring the reserve clause in NL contracts. This state of war lasted a couple of years, and the NL had to surrender. By 1903 peace was declared, settlements were made with NL teams that had been raided (mostly to the advantage of AL clubs), and the leagues respected each others' reserve clauses. A National Commission was set up to deal with matters that affected both leagues.

JoseCanseco6969
12-30-2004, 11:14 AM
thanks guys. Its amazing how sketchy some of the details of that time are and how little you hear about it

HITMEN OF 77
12-30-2004, 11:22 AM
Did the Sox win anything for finishing 1st in the AL in 1901?

FedEx227
12-30-2004, 11:23 AM
Yeah but I love that time period of baseball, its fun just to try to connect the teams then with who they are now...

but yeah I've only heard of the St. Paul Saints, but never a team in Minnesota.

TornLabrum
12-30-2004, 01:25 PM
Did the Sox win anything for finishing 1st in the AL in 1901?
They won a pennant. A real pennant.

zach074
12-30-2004, 02:24 PM
The cubs were the Chicago White Stockings.

JKryl
12-30-2004, 02:48 PM
The cubs were the Chicago White Stockings.
You're correct, but so were the White Sox. In fact, that's where the White Sox got the name.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Chicago_White_Sox.stm

At this link they say:
The White Sox were born in the winter of 1893-94 in Sioux City, Iowa. Charter members of Ban Johnson (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/J/Johnson_Ban.stm)'s Western League, the club was owned by just-retired first baseman and manager Charles Comiskey (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Comiskey_Charlie.stm). After a brief shift to St. Louis, the Chicago-born Comiskey wrangled a concession from the Chicago Cubs to bring his team to the South Side of his hometown in 1900. To spite his North Side National League rivals, Comiskey's team adopted the Cubs' first nickname - the White Stockings - and began play at Southside Park (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/S/South_Side_Park.stm), a former cricket field.

TornLabrum
12-30-2004, 03:20 PM
You're correct, but so were the White Sox. In fact, that's where the White Sox got the name.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Chicago_White_Sox.stm

At this link they say:
The White Sox were born in the winter of 1893-94 in Sioux City, Iowa. Charter members of Ban Johnson (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/J/Johnson_Ban.stm)'s Western League, the club was owned by just-retired first baseman and manager Charles Comiskey (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Comiskey_Charlie.stm). After a brief shift to St. Louis, the Chicago-born Comiskey wrangled a concession from the Chicago Cubs to bring his team to the South Side of his hometown in 1900. To spite his North Side National League rivals, Comiskey's team adopted the Cubs' first nickname - the White Stockings - and began play at Southside Park (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/S/South_Side_Park.stm), a former cricket field.
They really screwed it up! The history above that I gave is accurate. The Sox never played in St. Louis. The Sioux City club moved to St. Paul. Comiskey had played in St. Louis in the 1880s. The "brief shift" to St. Paul (a little farther north than St. Louis) lasted 5 years.

SoxFan76
12-30-2004, 03:20 PM
It's all too complicated. I think I'm just going to look into the history of the Devil Rays.

Well you see, it all started less than 10 years ago. The Devil Rays had great players such as Fred McGriff and Wade Boggs. Now they are at the bottom of the AL East year after year.

I want Mags back
12-30-2004, 06:15 PM
it's probably true. Often at the start of big leagues, teams bought out semi-pro teams to use as a base of players. The Blackhawks were the Portland Roses before being bouught and moved here in '26

I want Mags back
12-30-2004, 06:23 PM
The cubs were the Chicago White Stockings.
yes until they changed there name many times( orphans, colts, many more, finally The cubs.) Comiskey lived near west side park and was a huge
"White Stockings" fan. When he made his new team, he made them the White Stockings in the old teams honor. It was changed to white sox not too long later by chicago reporters, who pretty much would rather type 3 letters than 9

History sucks
GO SOX, now

FedEx227
12-30-2004, 07:48 PM
Well you see, it all started less than 10 years ago. The Devil Rays had great players such as Fred McGriff and Wade Boggs. Now they are at the bottom of the AL East year after year.

Don't forget Quinton McCracken, if he didn't hurt his leg we were looking at the next Glenallen Hill

Whitesox029
12-30-2004, 08:19 PM
Let me test myself....would the three remaining charter members be Boston, New York, and Detroit?

TornLabrum
12-30-2004, 09:31 PM
Let me test myself....would the three remaining charter members be Boston, New York, and Detroit?
The Original American League (1901) clubs were:

Chicago
Detroit
Boston
Cleveland
Baltimore
Philadelphia
Washington
Milwaukee

Baltimore moved to New York.
Philadelphia moved to Kansas City and then to Oakland.
Washington moved to Minnesota.
Milwaukee moved to St. Louis and then to Baltimore.

doublem23
12-30-2004, 09:31 PM
Let me test myself....would the three remaining charter members be Boston, New York, and Detroit?
Cleveland. The franchise that would become the Yankees was located in Baltimore in 1901 and 1902.