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NSSoxFan2
12-29-2004, 05:09 PM
Just listening to ESPN 1000, they are talking baseball for the five o'clock hour. Bruce Levine just said that the Sox have renewed their interest in A.J.

Thoughts?

eshunn2001
12-29-2004, 05:12 PM
Eh, Not feelin A.J. I sure hope not.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 05:14 PM
Iguchi must be asking for too much money so KW reverted back to trying to improve the catcher spot instead. He must think that Pierzynski's price went down since no one else has signed him yet.

Shingotime!!
12-29-2004, 05:14 PM
I'd be happy with a catcher or a shortstop/2nd baseman. Whats left on the market is A.J. and Cora. eathier is fine

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 05:17 PM
I know it's a little old but this is from December 22nd...

http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&id=6109
Latest News Dec. 22, 2004 - 2:10 pm et

Since Orlando Hernandez wouldn't require as much money as was set aside for Matt Clement, the White Sox could pursue free agents A.J. Pierzynski and Alex Cora.
Pierzynski would be a clear upgrade over Ben Davis. Cora would also help, though one has to wonder if the White Sox would consider him if he weren't the younger brother of third-base coach Joey Cora.

Source: Arlington Heights Daily Herald (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sox.asp)I know many of you may hate him but I would love a catching duo of Pierzynski & Davis. He would greatly strengthen the bottom of our lineup.

Chisox003
12-29-2004, 05:19 PM
This is great news...Go get em!

Podsednik LF
Cora 2B
Thomas DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Uribe SS
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B


That looks nice!

Shingotime!!
12-29-2004, 05:20 PM
if we got BOTH of them that would be an awsome offseason.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 05:20 PM
This is great news...Go get em!

Podsednik LF
Cora 2B
Konerko 1B
Thomas DH
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Uribe SS
Crede 3B
Pierzynski C

That looks nice!Pierzynski could probably bat before Crede. :tongue: Also, if Frank is healthy he's batting #3 and Konerko is #4.

Daver
12-29-2004, 05:22 PM
I know it's a little old but this is from December 22nd...

http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&id=6109
I know many of you may hate him but I would love a catching duo of Pierzynski & Davis. He would greatly strengthen the bottom of our lineup.
And with the way Sox pitchers can't hold runners on base he could thrill us with his throws to second that bounce just behind the pitcher's mound.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 05:24 PM
And with the way Sox pitchers can't hold runners on base he could thrill us with his throws to second that bounce just behind the pitcher's mound.Or with Ben Davis as our primary catcher, our team ERA can continue to balloon to 6.00.

Shingotime!!
12-29-2004, 05:25 PM
Podsednik LF
Cora 2B
Konerko 1B
Thomas DH
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Uribe SS
Crede 3B
Pierzynski
how bout this?
Pods (LF)
Cora (2B)
Thomas (DH)
Konerko (1B)
Dye (RF)
Rowand (CF)
Uribe (SS) I dont know if i like Rowand hitting there thou
Pierzynski (C)
Crede (3B)

NSSoxFan2
12-29-2004, 05:25 PM
I must say that I would like the Sox to aquire A.J. I don't know what the chances are of getting both A.J. and Cora.

Here is a question for you guys, What scenario would you prefer:
A) A.J. + Cora
B) Tadahito Iguchi

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 05:26 PM
I must say that I would like the Sox to aquire A.J. I don't know what the chances are of getting both A.J. and Cora.

Here is a question for you guys, What scenario would you prefer:
A) A.J. + Cora
B) Tadahito IguchiA.J. + Cora, of course.

Chisox003
12-29-2004, 05:27 PM
I must say that I would like the Sox to aquire A.J. I don't know what the chances are of getting both A.J. and Cora.

Here is a question for you guys, What scenario would you prefer:
A) A.J. + Cora
B) Tadahito Iguchi
Easily AJ and Cora...Improving 2 positions with proven MLB players and giving the team much more depth...AJ and Cora

tsamdog
12-29-2004, 05:32 PM
Didn't KW meet with AJ, and come to the conclusion that signing him was not in the best interests of the Sox? What has changed?.....Money? Attitude? :?:

MRKARNO
12-29-2004, 05:33 PM
I must say that I would like the Sox to aquire A.J. I don't know what the chances are of getting both A.J. and Cora.

Here is a question for you guys, What scenario would you prefer:
A) A.J. + Cora
B) Tadahito Iguchi
Iguchi. Cora would not be an upgrade over Harris by a significant margin and AJ's defense, bad game calling, attitude, not so great OBP and lack of power would be a negative. Iguchi would be an upgrade over Harris. He might be able to post a .360-.370 OBP in the majors with a fair amount of homers, probably 20 or so at US Cellular Field.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 05:33 PM
Didn't KW meet with AJ, and come to the conclusion that signing him was not in the best interests of the Sox? What has changed?.....Money? Attitude? :?:I bet it's money. Iguchi wants too much money and no one has signed Pierzynski. Maybe KW is thinking that Pierzynski's price must have gone down by now since no one else has signed him.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 05:35 PM
Didn't KW meet with AJ, and come to the conclusion that signing him was not in the best interests of the Sox? What has changed?.....Money? Attitude? :?:
Levine needs something to talk about.

Shingotime!!
12-29-2004, 05:36 PM
Iguchi. Cora would not be an upgrade over Harris by a significant margin and AJ's defense, bad game calling, attitude, not so great OBP and lack of power would be a negative. Iguchi would be an upgrade over Harris. He might be able to post a .360-.370 OBP in the majors with a fair amount of homers, probably 20 or so at US Cellular Field. __________________

What makes u think he will fair so we'll in the majors? Only the best of the best of Japan make it out here and he wasnt one of them. I also never heard anything about bad game calling by Perzynski, if anything i heard he handled the pitchers very well. :?:

tsamdog
12-29-2004, 05:41 PM
I bet it's money. Iguchi wants too much money and no one has signed Pierzynski. Maybe KW is thinking that Pierzynski's price must have gone down by now since no one else has signed him.
That's what it appears to be. I felt that when KW originally made the statement, the implication was that AJ the person wasn't a fit. It may just be a "how do you like me NOW" situation. IMO, AJ would be an upgrade at the position, but would he be a PITA in the clubhouse. A cancer at a discount price is still a disease.

Daver
12-29-2004, 05:45 PM
Or with Ben Davis as our primary catcher, our team ERA can continue to balloon to 6.00.
Since when does the catcher pitch?

Daver
12-29-2004, 05:47 PM
I also never heard anything about bad game calling by Perzynski, if anything i heard he handled the pitchers very well. :?:
He can't call pitches, let alone call a game.

Handles pitchers well compared to who?

Josh Paul?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-29-2004, 05:47 PM
AJ and Cora.

AJ alone would be better. You guys don't know how much of a punk he is and how he can get in the opponent's heads and bring our team together after a fight or what not (Detriot Tigers/Robert Fick episode).

Starting lineup would like great as follows;

1) Podzilla - LF
2) Rowand - CF
3) Thomas - DH
4) Konerko - 1B
5) Dye - RF
6) Uribe - SS
7) Pierzynski - C
8) Crede - 3B
9) Cora -2B

I like Rowand batting 2nd not 6th or 7th. He can do a lot more with Pod ahead of him and the heavy hitters behind him. I also like the lineup rolling over with Podzilla following Cora.

1917
12-29-2004, 05:54 PM
A.J. seems to be a crap starter and when KW said those comments that he didn't fit there system, he may stick his middle finger up to us.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 05:55 PM
Since when does the catcher pitch?A catcher calls games for pitchers and our team ERA was horrible with Davis catching last season. In any case, which will help our team more?

A catcher who can't hit but is good defensively and hurt our team ERA last season.
OR
A catcher who is a great hitter and questionable defensively.

Daver
12-29-2004, 05:56 PM
A catcher calls games for pitchers and our team ERA was horrible with Davis catching.
Don Cooper was calling the pitches for Ben Davis. He didn't know the pitchers well enough to do it himself.

tsamdog
12-29-2004, 06:01 PM
What other Sox players have been signed that arrived with baggage.....then produced? Richie "Call Me Dick" Allen, Albert Joey Belle, ????

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:02 PM
What other Sox players have been signed that arrived with baggage.....then produced? Richie "Call Me Dick" Allen, Albert Joey Belle, ????Albert Belle was a monster but he was corking his bat his entire career. :tongue: And I think David Wells earned a bad rep for coming to the South Side and getting even FATTER. All he did was drink beer and get injured for us.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:04 PM
Don Cooper was calling the pitches for Ben Davis. He didn't know the pitchers well enough to do it himself.You must really love this 7-8-9...

7.) Crede
8.) Davis
9.) Willie

:chunks

MRKARNO
12-29-2004, 06:05 PM
A catcher who can't hit but is good defensively and hurt our team ERA last season.
OR
A catcher who is a great hitter and questionable defensively.
Your framing of the question is unfair. Let me reframe:

A pair of catchers, one of whom has some offensive potential, the other no power, but decent OBP potential, both of whom are good defensively and had no bearing on the team ERA last season, both of whom are already on the roster and dont cost significant money
OR
A catcher who is an overrated hitter, has no power, cannot draw a walk, is very questionable defensively and many on our roster hates him and would cost real money

MRKARNO
12-29-2004, 06:08 PM
You must really love this 7-8-9...

7.) Crede
8.) Davis
9.) Willie


Nobody "loves" it, stop kidding yourself, but AJ's negative effect on the pitching staff and his poor defense will be worse than the downgrade from AJ to Burke/Davis. Crede and Harris might not turn out so bad anyways. I'm willing to bet one of them has a fine year next year. Pierzynski is a bad idea. Period.

DickAllen72
12-29-2004, 06:08 PM
I'd be happy with a catcher or a shortstop/2nd baseman. Whats left on the market is A.J. and Cora. eathier is fine

YES to A.J. NO to Cora.

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:09 PM
A catcher who can't hit but is good defensively and hurt our team ERA last season.
OR
A catcher who is a great hitter and questionable defensively.
With the exception of third base the entire Sox infield is questionable defensively, you want that behind the plate as well?

It's bad enough the Sox staff has exactly one pitcher than can hold a runner on first, to compound that with a catcher that can't throw anyone out is a recipe for a lot of 14-13 games.


But then again, what the hell do I know? ©

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:10 PM
Your framing of the question is unfair. Let me reframe:

A pair of catchers, one of whom has some offensive potential, the other no power, but decent OBP potential, both of whom are good defensively and had no bearing on the team ERA last season, both of whom are already on the roster and dont cost significant money
OR
A catcher who is an overrated hitter, has no power, cannot draw a walk, is very questionable defensively and many on our roster hates him and would cost real moneyMy framing was unfair? :tongue:

Go look at Pierzynski's career numbers and tell me who is without a doubt the best hitter among Davis, Burke, and Pierzynski.

EDIT: Okay, I will bring up the numbers...

A.J. Pierzynski (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=150229) (career numbers)
.294 AVG
.336 OBP

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:11 PM
With the exception of third base the entire Sox infield is questionable defensively, you want that behind the plate as well?

It's bad enough the Sox staff has exactly one pitcher than can hold a runner on first, to compound that with a catcher that can't throw anyone out is a recipe for a lot of 14-13 games.


But then again, what the hell do I know? ©Uribe and Willie are questionable defensively? :?:

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:13 PM
Uribe and Willie are questionable defensively? :?:
So is Paul K, and the only pitcher that fields the position well is Garland.

Shingotime!!
12-29-2004, 06:13 PM
woulnt a signing of Cora and Pierzynski give us 26 on the 25 man roster who loses out?

HomeFish
12-29-2004, 06:14 PM
and the only pitcher that fields the position well is Garland.

Ever heard of a guy named Mark Buehrle?

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:15 PM
You must really love this 7-8-9...

7.) Crede
8.) Davis
9.) Willie


Not really, get rid of Willie and sign a real second baseman.

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:16 PM
Ever heard of a guy named Mark Buehrle?
What's your point?

He's adequate, but he does not field the position well.

HomeFish
12-29-2004, 06:16 PM
I don't see a guy like A.J. lowering himself to the level of signing with a team whose GM went out and declared that he is "not right for them".

Kenny burned himself with that stupid comment. He burned all of us too -- no real catcher for us in '05.

HomeFish
12-29-2004, 06:17 PM
He's adequate, but he does not field the position well.

We've been watching different teams, then.

DickAllen72
12-29-2004, 06:17 PM
I must say that I would like the Sox to aquire A.J. I don't know what the chances are of getting both A.J. and Cora.

Here is a question for you guys, What scenario would you prefer:
A) A.J. + Cora
B) Tadahito Iguchi

How about A.J. + Cairo? That would be much, much better.

I'd like Iguchi + A.J. also. A.J. alone or Cairo alone or Iguchi alone wouldn't be bad, either.

A big NO to Cora. Harris is already better plus he has much more potential.

At least with right handed hitting Cairo, the Sox could platoon him with Willie at 2B.

Chisox003
12-29-2004, 06:20 PM
If the defense is in question, I really dont see any glaring holes in the infield...Konerko is a solid fielding 1b, and if Cora is signed, that Middlr IF will be flashy, quick and and have outstanding range (Cora/Izturis in LA was fun to watch)...I thought Uribe was very good at SS last year, and we know Crede is just a step below gold glove consideration....I like the infield defensively

Shingotime!!
12-29-2004, 06:21 PM
How about A.J. + Cairo? That would be much, much better.

I'd like Iguchi + A.J. also. A.J. alone or Cairo alone or Iguchi alone wouldn't be bad, either.

A big NO to Cora. Harris is already better plus he has much more potential.

At least with right handed hitting Cairo, the Sox could platoon him with Willie at 2B. Cora can bunt! :o:

Chisox003
12-29-2004, 06:21 PM
[QUOTE=DickAllen72]How about A.J. + Cairo? That would be much, much better.
QUOTE]

Id definitely take Cairo over Cora...But has KW mentioned him?

OEO Magglio
12-29-2004, 06:22 PM
With the exception of third base the entire Sox infield is questionable defensively, you want that behind the plate as well?

It's bad enough the Sox staff has exactly one pitcher than can hold a runner on first, to compound that with a catcher that can't throw anyone out is a recipe for a lot of 14-13 games.


But then again, what the hell do I know? ©
:?: If Juan and Willie aren't good defenders I'd like to see who a good defender is. Those two could possibly be the best double play combo in the league. As far as Pk he's nothing special but he's adequate out there. As far as AJ goes if kenny determines his attitude is fine, then I'd love to have the guy, he's a huge upgrade over ben and jamie and is one of the best catchers in the league. AJ might not have the best arm in the league but he is good at handling a pitching staff.

OEO Magglio
12-29-2004, 06:23 PM
[QUOTE=DickAllen72]How about A.J. + Cairo? That would be much, much better.
QUOTE]

Id definitely take Cairo over Cora...But has KW mentioned him?
Nope, but were el duque or Hermanson ever mentioned with the sox?? I definitely wouldn't be surprised to see Miguel pop out of nowhere like Orlando and Dustin did.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:23 PM
Not really, get rid of Willie and sign a real second baseman. Amen.

Catcher is the only position I would absolutely choose the starter for their defensive ability, rather than offensive ability. A catcher's defensive ability counts infinitely more than a thirdbasemen or secondbasemen. Their bat (or alleged baserunning ability) is strictly a secondary consideration.

Upgrading either Crede or Harris is the far more pressing and logical move for the Sox to make. Batting ninth in the A.L. ought to belong to the catcher. He works his ass off the other half of every inning, and does us more good than either of the clods who some around here seem to think are entitled to everyday jobs.

clods ----> :crede :weewillie

DickAllen72
12-29-2004, 06:24 PM
Id definitely take Cairo over Cora...But has KW mentioned him?

No, he's flying under the radar on Cairo.
:)

DrCrawdad
12-29-2004, 06:24 PM
Or with Ben Davis as our primary catcher, our team ERA can continue to balloon to 6.00.

It seemed to me that defensively at least, Davis & Burke did a good job. I don't remember AJ's catching whether he was any good or not, but if he's as bad as Daver says and as bad a clubhouse presence then it won't be worth it.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:25 PM
:?: If Juan and Willie aren't good defenders I'd like to see who a good defender is. Those two could possibly be the best double play combo in the league. As far as Pk he's nothing special but he's adequate out there. As far as AJ goes if kenny determines his attitude is fine, then I'd love to have the guy, he's a huge upgrade over ben and jamie and is one of the best catchers in the league. AJ might not have the best arm in the league but he is good at handling a pitching staff.I know. Daver is going a little overboard. The only questionable glove in our infield is Konerko. Crede, Uribe, and Willie are all good gloves.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:26 PM
Batting ninth in the A.L. ought to belong to the catcher. He works his ass off the other half of every inning, and does us more good than either of the clods who some around here seem to think are entitled to everyday jobs.Tell that to Kendall, Varitek, and Posada.

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:26 PM
It seemed to me that defensively at least, Davis & Burke did a good job. I don't remember AJ's catching whether he was any good or not, but if he's as bad as Daver says and as bad a clubhouse presence then it won't be worth it.
Doc, we all know I know nothing about baseball.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:28 PM
I know. Daver is going a little overboard. The only questionable glove in our infield is Konerko. Crede, Uribe, and Willie are all good gloves.
I know OEO was just going for the joke, but I'm guessing you're serious?

That's comedy... or drugs.
:smokin: :smokin:

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:29 PM
Doc, we all know I know nothing about baseball.No one said that but it's still just your opinion versus others.

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:30 PM
I know OEO was just going for the joke, but I'm guessing you're serious?

That's comedy... or drugs.
:smokin: :smokin:Please tell me how you guys think Crede, Uribe, and Willie are questionable defensively from watching them play last season. Offensively, a resounding yes.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:32 PM
Tell that to Kendall, Varitek, and Posada.
Obviously somebody can't read...

As I already stated once, and will state again, anything a catcher does with his bat is a PLUS.

Try reading more and posting less, okay?

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:34 PM
Obviously somebody can't read...

As I already stated once, and will state again, anything a catcher does with his bat is a PLUS.

Try reading more and posting less, okay?I read and I disagreed. Why does a catcher who can hit have to be a plus? The Cubs even have a good hitting catcher in Barrett and he isn't that good defensively either.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:34 PM
Please tell me how you guys think Crede, Uribe, and Willie are questionable defensively from watching them play last season. Offensively, a resounding yes.
I don't give a rat's ass about their defense. Their bats SUCK, and based on that alone they don't deserve to play everyday for the Chicago White Sox. We have plenty of catchers who deserve to bat #9 more than either of those clods.

clods----> :crede :weewillie

Jabroni
12-29-2004, 06:35 PM
I don't give a rat's ass about their defense. Their bats SUCK, and based on that alone they don't deserve to play everyday for the Chicago White Sox. We have plenty of catchers who deserve to bat #9 more than either of those clods.

clods----> :crede :weewillieI agree with that but you guys questioned their defense, not their bats.

MRKARNO
12-29-2004, 06:35 PM
A.J. Pierzynski (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=150229) (career numbers)
.294 AVG
.336 OBP
People are ready to drive Willie Harris out of town for posting a .343 OBP last year, but you're clamoring for Pierzynski and his .336 career OBP? Harris's minor league numbers suggest his BA could go much higher and considering he walked a lot last year, that means his OBP could go up to the very respectable for a second baseman .370 level. Can you name me one thing besides batting average that goes to his favor?

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:35 PM
I read and I disagreed. Why does a catcher who can hit have to be a plus? The Cubs even have a good hitting catcher in Barrett and he isn't that good defensively either.
The Cubs line up sucks. I'm starting to see a pattern...

:smokin:

tsamdog
12-29-2004, 06:36 PM
I was listening to a numbers cruncher on the Score after the Sox lost out on Visquel. His numbers indicated that Uribe was statistically superior to Omar, and that the Sox infield (with the exception of 1B) was solid. I, too , question what we have now behind the plate. Can Davis develop into the type of catcher that those who drafted him had in mind. If I'm not mistaken, he was a huge bonus baby and was drafted very high. If that's the case, give him a shot. It seems that Walk's work with him has paid off thus far, and Garcia is comfortable with him. Save the dough that would go to AJ, and look to sign a solid utility infielder. Or....wait for the next move of others.....

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:37 PM
People are ready to drive Willie Harris out of town for posting a .343 OBP last year, but you're clamoring for Pierzynski and his .336 career OBP? Harris's minor league numbers suggest his BA could go much higher and considering he walked a lot last year, that means his OBP could go up to the very respectable for a second baseman .370 level. Can you name me one thing besides batting average that goes to his favor?
Umm... it gets Jabroni's post total up to keep denying these facts?
:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:40 PM
I agree with that but you guys questioned their defense, not their bats.
Actually, you've been debating the rest of us about A.J.'s superior bat. You defended those two clods based on some mythical defensive prowess that apparently supercedes their lousy bats.

clods----> :crede :weewillie

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:41 PM
Tell that to Kendall, Varitek, and Posada.
Comprehension is a skill you might want to look into.

OEO Magglio
12-29-2004, 06:42 PM
Umm... it gets Jabroni's post total up to keep denying these facts?
:cool:
You're the one saying willie is a terrible hitter. He's not THAT bad, he's not great don't get me wrong but he definitely had a respectable season last year and I'm sure he'd improve from last year. I too want to upgrade at 2nd base to get a hitter that can bat 2nd in the order so we can move aaron down, However Willie is fine if he's batting 9th.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:46 PM
You're the one saying willie is a terrible hitter. He's not THAT bad, he's not great don't get me wrong but he definitely had a respectable season last year and I'm sure he'd improve from last year. I too want to upgrade at 2nd base to get a hitter that can bat 2nd in the order so we can move aaron down. However Willie is fine if he's batting 9th.
Willie sucks.

Willie did not have a respectable season.

Willie does not deserve to bat #9. We have weak-hitting catchers more deserving of the spot than any secondbasemen could ever hope to make up for with his glove.

What's next? Do we need to draw you a picture?

santo=dorf
12-29-2004, 06:47 PM
You're the one saying willie is a terrible hitter. He's not THAT bad, he's not great don't get me wrong but he definitely had a respectable season last year and I'm sure he'd improve from last year. I too want to upgrade at 2nd base to get a hitter that can bat 2nd in the order so we can move aaron down, However Willie is fine if he's batting 9th.
He's too inconsistent. He'll go 5-5 one night, and then go 0-12. We need someone who can consistently get on base.

OEO Magglio
12-29-2004, 06:48 PM
Willie sucks.

Willie did not have a respectable season.

Willie does not deserve to bat #9. We have weak-hitting catchers more deserving of the spot than any secondbasemen could ever hope to make up for with his glove.

What's next? Do we need to draw you a picture?
Yup, I'd love to hear why willie sucks.

doublem23
12-29-2004, 06:51 PM
Yup, I'd love to hear why willie sucks.Can't steal a base, is absolutely devoid of power, and just flat out sucks overall. If someone could teach him how to run the bases effectively, I'd like him as some speed on the bench, but as it stands, he's a complete waste of talent.

santo=dorf
12-29-2004, 06:51 PM
Yup, I'd love to hear why willie sucks.
He's a good fielder, but he didn't steal many bases when he got on base, and he is too inconsistent, especially for a leadoff hitter.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:52 PM
Yup, I'd love to hear why willie sucks.
He ranks in the bottom-third of practically every offensive category you can quote or otherwise manipulate.

If he starts for the Sox next April, it's only because we didn't have the money or talent to acquire somebody better.

Believe me, plenty of other teams will be beating our brains in with superior talent at 2B than the Sox with Willie Harris.

tsamdog
12-29-2004, 06:52 PM
Do not, I repeat do NOT put a base clogging catcher in the 9 spot. With that, you diminish the attributes of Pods. Willie, or an equivalent, is your 9th hitter.

twsoxfan5
12-29-2004, 06:53 PM
I dont think KW every met with him personally when it was first decided that the SOX were not interested. BRUCE just said that KW met with him recently and the SOX are interested again.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 06:55 PM
Do not, I repeat do NOT put a base clogging catcher in the 9 spot. With that, you diminish the attributes of Pods. Willie, or an equivalent, is your 9th hitter.
Oh, this is going to be good...

Okay, so where do we bat the catcher?

Sorry, I'm already laughing...

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:56 PM
Yup, I'd love to hear why willie sucks.
What would you like to hear?

The fact that he is a woefully inconsistent bat that can't even bunt well enough to use it as a weapon?

The fact that he can chase down pop flies all over the place, but makes miscues on balls hit right at him?

The fact that he has a poor move to throw to second during a double play, as well as the fact that he is usually out of position to field the ball there as well?

The fact that he has no understanding on how to lead off, or get a jump on the pitcher to steal a base?

If he could perfect the HBP, as well as learn to run the bases, he would be a good bench player.

MeanFish
12-29-2004, 06:56 PM
Let's bat the catcher second.

doublem23
12-29-2004, 06:56 PM
Oh, this is going to be good...

Okay, so where do we bat the catcher?

Sorry, I'm already laughing...
See, you bat him first, so you only clog the bases for guys like Frank and Konerko. They hit the power to drive him in and then you have the speed from 5-9 play smallball. Can't fail.

Daver
12-29-2004, 06:58 PM
Do not, I repeat do NOT put a base clogging catcher in the 9 spot. With that, you diminish the attributes of Pods. Willie, or an equivalent, is your 9th hitter.
Damn Right!!!

Bat him leadoff.


>shakes head and walks away in simple disbelief<

DickAllen72
12-29-2004, 06:58 PM
Okay, so where do we bat the catcher?



Seventh, if it's Pierzynski. Eighth, if it's Burke or Davis.

tsamdog
12-29-2004, 06:59 PM
Oh, this is going to be good...

Okay, so where do we bat the catcher?

Sorry, I'm already laughing...

Depends who it is. If it's BD, then I bat him 7 or 8. If he ends an inning, then you have 9 (Willie) , 1 (Pods), 2 (Uribe). Do I amuse you? ....lol....bad Pesci impersonation....

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 07:01 PM
Do I amuse you? ....lol....bad Pesci impersonation....
Actually, you truly are amusing me. I'm just glad you're not packing heat.
:wink:

You aren't packing heat are you?
:o:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2004, 07:04 PM
Seventh, if it's Pierzynski. Eighth, if it's Burke or Davis.
What the hell, if we're going to devote the ninth spot to scrappy hitters, why not bat Ozzie #9? Then we can have a player-manager... just like "Good Kid" Lou Boudreau back in the day.
:redneck

tsamdog
12-29-2004, 07:05 PM
Actually, you truly are amusing me. I'm just glad you're not packing heat.
:wink:

You aren't packing heat are you?
:o:Naaaaaa......just some good natured rattling of some cages here. I just hate to see speed wasted at the top of the line-up. We haven't had a stolen base threat for awhile, and station-to-station baseball defeats that purpose.

Edit: For what it's worth....Anaheim bats Molina 8 and goes with Figgins or Kennedy 9.......Yankees bat Wilson 9......Boston has gone with Reese, Kapler at the 9 spot...and the omnipresent Twinkeees...have used Guzman and Rivas. There have been successful teams that do not go the #9 Catcher course.

RichFitztightly
12-29-2004, 09:00 PM
If he could perfect the HBP, as well as learn to run the bases, he would be a good bench player.
Nah, I don't buy it. The only way Willie's going to be successful is if the league changes the rules and allows the team to insert him during a run-down. Basically when it comes down to it, Willie Harris would be good as a run-down specialist and nothing else.

Whitesox029
12-29-2004, 09:06 PM
Oh god no....

johnny_mostil
12-29-2004, 09:09 PM
Uribe and Willie are questionable defensively? :?:
I just about busted a gut when I read that, too. You see, Uribe started hitting last season, so he must be questionable defensively. Never mind that he made the major leagues years ago because he's a top-notch defensive player.

White Sox fans live in a world of the bizarre where good fielders are questionable, average starting pitchers are "holes", and short relievers exhibit sharp, irreversible declines "that everybody saw" that someone is apparently methodically erasing from history. Good players are players who play for other teams, until the White Sox trade for them, when, after they play exactly the same way, they also are tragically flawed.

ma-gaga
12-29-2004, 09:52 PM
AJ is average defensively (top 12 maybe). He's been absolutely durable and above average with the bat, and he's young. The only thing that should be a downside to his game is his mouth, he tends to argue a little too much with the umps, and his salary is starting to get expensive, but overall you should be looking at a top 10 catcher for under $5MM a year.

I don't know if he's BAD at calling games. I never thought that from watching him. He'll let a couple of passed balls a week that the "defensive" catchers would block. He's very good at protecting the plate.

Well... whatever, the Sox would be a better team with him, IMO. :gulp:

voodoochile
12-29-2004, 10:05 PM
AJ is average defensively (top 12 maybe). He's been absolutely durable and above average with the bat, and he's young. The only thing that should be a downside to his game is his mouth, he tends to argue a little too much with the umps, and his salary is starting to get expensive, but overall you should be looking at a top 10 catcher for under $5MM a year.

I don't know if he's BAD at calling games. I never thought that from watching him. He'll let a couple of passed balls a week that the "defensive" catchers would block. He's very good at protecting the plate.

Well... whatever, the Sox would be a better team with him, IMO. :gulp:
Can the Sox acquire a bat for one of the "other positions" that will be better than AJ? If not, then the choice seems obvious to me. Yes, I prefer a guy behind the plate who is solid defensively, but AJ isn't going to make that much worse where it will cost the team so many runs that he won't make them up with his bat.

If they can get that bat at a need position that is less important defensively (2B/3B) then do it, if not, sign AJ.

Jabroni
12-30-2004, 12:08 AM
Can the Sox acquire a bat for one of the "other positions" that will be better than AJ? If not, then the choice seems obvious to me. Yes, I prefer a guy behind the plate who is solid defensively, but AJ isn't going to make that much worse where it will cost the team so many runs that he won't make them up with his bat.

If they can get that bat at a need position that is less important defensively (2B/3B) then do it, if not, sign AJ.You get a double-thumbs up...

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If we can sign Cora or trade for Polanco, fine. Bench Willie. But if we can't, at least we can upgrade our catcher's offense by quite a bit. I honestly think that Ben Davis' combination of bad offense and good defense will hurt us more in the bottom of the lineup than Pierzynski's good offense and bad defense will. Ben Davis will still be catching for Garcia and maybe Contreras anyways. What could it hurt? By the way, Pierzynski has had 151 RBI's over the last two seasons.

MeanFish
12-30-2004, 12:15 AM
You get a double-thumbs up...

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If we can sign Cora or trade for Polanco, fine. Bench Willie. But if we can't, at least we can upgrade our catcher's offense by quite a bit. I honestly think that Ben Davis' combination of bad offense and good defense will hurt us more in the bottom of the lineup than Pierzynski's good offense and bad defense will. Ben Davis will still be catching for Garcia and maybe Contreras anyways. What could it hurt?

Did you guys know that Pierzynski has had the most RBI's over the past two years than any other catcher in the MLB?
Don't be so quick to write off Ben Davis' offense. There's a fair chance that he could hit .260 or so this year with a decent amount of pop.

Jabroni
12-30-2004, 12:19 AM
Don't be so quick to write off Ben Davis' offense. There's a fair chance that he could hit .260 or so this year with a decent amount of pop.And what in the blue hell would make you think that? The highest Ben Davis has ever hit was .259 in 2002...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=150433&statType=1

His career batting average is .237.

FightingBillini
12-30-2004, 12:41 AM
And what in the blue hell would make you think that? The highest Ben Davis has ever hit was .259 in 2002...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=150433&statType=1

His career batting average is .237.
I think Davis will be a very good player for us in the future. I don't really have anything to back that up, but I know it. I predict that Davis will be a solid player, even if he doesn't live up to his potential. Davis hasn't played in more than 80 games in any season since 2001. I think that going into spring training knowing he is the starter will help Davis. He will be able to relax and focus, not wondering when he will see more playing time. He put up his career best numbers to date in 2001, the only season when he was the starting catcher. He showed improvment after coming to the Sox, and I believe that he will continue to improve. I believe Davis will hit .260 -.270 this year with around 60 RBIs.

fquaye149
12-30-2004, 01:23 AM
Can the Sox acquire a bat for one of the "other positions" that will be better than AJ? If not, then the choice seems obvious to me. Yes, I prefer a guy behind the plate who is solid defensively, but AJ isn't going to make that much worse where it will cost the team so many runs that he won't make them up with his bat.

If they can get that bat at a need position that is less important defensively (2B/3B) then do it, if not, sign AJ.
VC, what I worry about is the clubhouse cancer thing - We already have a manager who is willing to spat with players, two first-basemen who have traded barbs in the past and a palpable language barrier what with the abundance of cubans, south americans, Americans, and Shingo.

Now we throw into the mix a loudmouth, apathetic catcher with an apparent allegiance to our division rivals who gives us a reasonable OBP upgrade but with little speed, power, or run production.

I dont' know if the tangibles (his good batting average and above average OBP) outweigh the intangibles of his attitude mixed with the chemistry of this team...


P.S....I remember reading in the ESPN.com article about the Giants' frustration with him that his pitchers said he refused to go over game film with them because the only baseball he watched were Twins games.

I understand that he's a professional and everything, but don't you think there's a little bit of conflict of interest there....

WhiteSoxFan84
12-30-2004, 02:08 AM
[QUOTE=DickAllen72]How about A.J. + Cairo? That would be much, much better.
[QUOTE]

Id definitely take Cairo over Cora...But has KW mentioned him?
What is up with this Miguel Cairo love? He's nothing more than a backup.

2001 - .291 BA, .366 OBP, 9 RBI, 156 AB
2002 - .250, .307, 23, 184
2003 - .245, .289, 32, 261
2004 - .292, .346, 42, 360

His defense seems to be very solid, but he'll also need to bat.

Chisox003
12-30-2004, 02:40 AM
What is up with this Miguel Cairo love? He's nothing more than a backup.

2001 - .291 BA, .366 OBP, 9 RBI, 156 AB
2002 - .250, .307, 23, 184
2003 - .245, .289, 32, 261
2004 - .292, .346, 42, 360

His defense seems to be very solid, but he'll also need to bat.Either way, Cora or Cairo, the hitting isnt going to be outstanding...
2001- .217, 285, 29, 405
2002- .291, 371, 28, 258
2003- .249, 287, 34, 477
2004- .264, 364, 47, 405

Cora is 29, Cairo is almost 31 so not a huge age difference...But I noticed that Cairo had his best year (last year) with 100 more AB's than 2003....I dont know which Cairo would show up, but either way, Cairo or Cora is a coin flip.....

I still like the idea of trading for Polanco, otherwise it might be hollywood willie..........

voodoochile
12-30-2004, 08:54 AM
VC, what I worry about is the clubhouse cancer thing - We already have a manager who is willing to spat with players, two first-basemen who have traded barbs in the past and a palpable language barrier what with the abundance of cubans, south americans, Americans, and Shingo.

Now we throw into the mix a loudmouth, apathetic catcher with an apparent allegiance to our division rivals who gives us a reasonable OBP upgrade but with little speed, power, or run production.

I dont' know if the tangibles (his good batting average and above average OBP) outweigh the intangibles of his attitude mixed with the chemistry of this team...


P.S....I remember reading in the ESPN.com article about the Giants' frustration with him that his pitchers said he refused to go over game film with them because the only baseball he watched were Twins games.

I understand that he's a professional and everything, but don't you think there's a little bit of conflict of interest there....
That is a different issue. I trust the team to figure that out before they sign him. I don't have any information in front of me other than these "reports" and I don't trust them.

I don't feel I have enough information to properly evaluate the situation. If there were more negative reports, it might be different, but one blurb in one article from ESPN isn't enough to sour me on the guy.

It's KW's job to figure that stuff out. If he thinks it is too much of a burden, I trust him to not sign AJ.

Baby Fisk
12-30-2004, 08:57 AM
Just say no to A.J.

And now...

:tomatoaward

tsamdog
12-30-2004, 09:12 AM
That is a different issue. I trust the team to figure that out before they sign him. I don't have any information in front of me other than these "reports" and I don't trust them.

I don't feel I have enough information to properly evaluate the situation. If there were more negative reports, it might be different, but one blurb in one article from ESPN isn't enough to sour me on the guy.

It's KW's job to figure that stuff out. If he thinks it is too much of a burden, I trust him to not sign AJ.
I agree...it's KW's job to do this, and as much as he is in the clubhouse, he should have a good feel as who will fit and who won't. I think it comes down to risk/reward. I didn't see too many names pop up on a previous post asking who we have signed with baggage that has produced. AJ does have baggage. Is it warranted? KW needs to do the homework.

I also think that BD could have a productive year. Walk has done a good job with him, shortening the swing. Again, it's a risk/reward thing with him. The stats do not indicate that he will do more than .250-ish, but he has the tools. I do think, though, regardless...we need a left handed bat.

mdep524
12-30-2004, 11:09 AM
I think the Sox ought to determine their second base situation first, then worry about catcher. Polanco, Cora, that Japanese guy Iguchi, or Cairo... one of those guys must be brought in. That's top priority. With a 2B and number 2 hitter in the fold, the catcher position becomes less important IMO. But put Pierzynski in that line up, and you have a pretty good one:

Podsednik LF
Polanco 2B
Thomas DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Pierzynski C
Uribe SS
Crede 3B

That team could definitely compete.

petekat
12-30-2004, 12:04 PM
Ditto on Davis, he certainly has the tools and is only 29. Potential upgrade on offense not worth absorbing a clubhouse cancer. He was really hated in SF last season- Felipe is a pretty good judge of character- if he can't make it there. Being a veteran set in his ways, not likely AJ is likely to change much

I think Davis will be a very good player for us in the future. I don't really have anything to back that up, but I know it. I predict that Davis will be a solid player, even if he doesn't live up to his potential. Davis hasn't played in more than 80 games in any season since 2001. I think that going into spring training knowing he is the starter will help Davis. He will be able to relax and focus, not wondering when he will see more playing time. He put up his career best numbers to date in 2001, the only season when he was the starting catcher. He showed improvment after coming to the Sox, and I believe that he will continue to improve. I believe Davis will hit .260 -.270 this year with around 60 RBIs.

infohawk
12-30-2004, 12:20 PM
I don't know if it has been posted here yet, but another Sox board mentioned that the Score is reporting that the Sox have made a formal offer to A.J. Take it for what its worth.

1917
12-30-2004, 12:32 PM
White Sox.com info is usually bogus...if that was reported onthe score it woul dhave hit here by now

Baby Fisk
12-30-2004, 12:36 PM
I don't know if it has been posted here yet, but another Sox board mentioned that the Score is reporting that the Sox have made a formal offer to A.J. Take it for what its worth.This A.J. stuff was debunked last week:

An earlier A.J. thread. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43178)

PicktoCLick72
12-30-2004, 12:52 PM
Is bringing back the Fisk-Karkovice tandem a viable option?

DirtySouthsider
12-30-2004, 01:05 PM
This A.J. stuff was debunked last week:

An earlier A.J. thread. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43178)

It was confirmed on The Score that the sox did indeed make P.J. and offer.

maurice
12-30-2004, 01:05 PM
What is up with this Miguel Cairo love?
If Cairo played for the Sox, folks would be calling for his head.

Face it . . . 2B is a very weak position in MLB, particularly in the AL. You can't fairly compare their offensive stats to 1Bs and OFs. For the most part, the small handful of guys who can hit can't field, and the guys who can field can't hit.

Here are the 2004 OBPs for the starting 2Bs in the AL:
.373
.351
.348
.346
.344
.343
.341
.327
.324
.317
.317
.297
.296
.283
.266

Cairo is 4th on that list (in only 360 ABs). Harris is 6th (409 ABs). Uribe is 8th. The Twins' starting 2B is 14th with a .283 OBP.

Only three AL 2Bs hit more than 20 HR (including Uribe).

Only one stole more than 20 bases. (Harris stole 19.)

For the record, I want Cairo (or Cora, or Grudzelwhozit, or the Japanese fellow) to push Valdez off the roster and to get plenty of starts at 2B and/or 3B. I don't want AJ at all because he's a POS.

Jabroni
12-30-2004, 01:43 PM
It was confirmed on The Score that the sox did indeed make P.J. and offer.The Score said today that the White Sox have offered a contract to A.J. Pierzynski???

EDIT: Ah, okay. George Offman is reporting that the White Sox have made a formal offer to A.J. Pierzynski. No details on the contract offer.

CWSGuy406
12-30-2004, 01:48 PM
Can't steal a base, is absolutely devoid of power, and just flat out sucks overall. If someone could teach him how to run the bases effectively, I'd like him as some speed on the bench, but as it stands, he's a complete waste of talent.
He can't steal a base, yet was in the Top 15 in the AL in stolen bases.

So what if he has no power? If he can get on base, that's all that really matters, and when he played against righties last year, his OBP was .366. In his first full season in the majors, might I add.


I don't know what the heck some of you guys want out of the guy. I realize he doesn't have the best attitude, but some of you frame him like he's worse than Joe Borchard...

CWSGuy406
12-30-2004, 01:55 PM
What is up with this Miguel Cairo love? He's nothing more than a backup.

2001 - .291 BA, .366 OBP, 9 RBI, 156 AB
2002 - .250, .307, 23, 184
2003 - .245, .289, 32, 261
2004 - .292, .346, 42, 360

His defense seems to be very solid, but he'll also need to bat.
Look at his splits vs. lefties. He kills 'em. That's why I was excited to hear (at first) that we were going to also be getting Keith Ginter (which later turned out to be false, obviously), because Ginter, like Cairo, kills lefties. Platoon Cairo with Harris, and you have a darn good two headed monster at second base.

fquaye149
12-30-2004, 02:05 PM
He can't steal a base, yet was in the Top 15 in the AL in stolen bases.

So what if he has no power? If he can get on base, that's all that really matters, and when he played against righties last year, his OBP was .366. In his first full season in the majors, might I add.


I don't know what the heck some of you guys want out of the guy. I realize he doesn't have the best attitude, but some of you frame him like he's worse than Joe Borchard...
can't hit left-handed pitching at all. look at the splits.

Baby Fisk
12-30-2004, 02:09 PM
It was confirmed on The Score that the sox did indeed make P.J. and offer.If you meant A.J., then that really sucks.

Gammons Peter
12-30-2004, 02:20 PM
It was confirmed on The Score that the sox did indeed make P.J. and offer.
PJ??, pajamas? They are going back to the '77 Hitmen uniforms?

CWSGuy406
12-30-2004, 02:22 PM
can't hit left-handed pitching at all. look at the splits.
OK...?

No one's framing him to be a great hitter. He's awful against lefties -- he shouldn't face a left handed pitcher one time next season.

But he's a quality ballplayer against righties. He has excellent range at 2B, and, FWIW -- all 19 of his SB's were against right-handers, IIRC.

I don't think I've ever said Harris is a full-time player, because he's not. If it comes down to it, put Valdez in against left handers, as I assume that he'd be able to handle lefties fairly well.

But -- if you're getting a player in the nine hole who's able to get on base at a .370 clip, your offense should be in pretty darn good shape...

D. TODD
12-30-2004, 02:45 PM
I'm not ready to throw Willie under the bus, but some flexability with a middle infielder is desperately needed. Cora would be my first move to split time at 2nd and SS when needed. Any injury would be devastating to the infield if we start the season with this roster. A.J. would be fine but not if it means passing on a quality versatile middle infielder.

DirtySouthsider
12-30-2004, 02:59 PM
PJ??, pajamas? They are going back to the '77 Hitmen uniforms?

Opps...you got me.....they made A.J. Pierzynski an offer:redface:

HomeFish
12-30-2004, 03:11 PM
The Score said today that the White Sox have offered a contract to A.J. Pierzynski???

EDIT: Ah, okay. George Offman is reporting that the White Sox have made a formal offer to A.J. Pierzynski. No details on the contract offer.

If I were A.J., I'd reject it with the same "I don't think the White Sox are the right team for me" crap that KW gave him so shortly ago.

Thankfully, I am not A.J., and hopefully he will see past the insult and take the money. I mean, Tampa can't be offering him that much, can it?

ma-gaga
12-30-2004, 03:24 PM
P.S....I remember reading in the ESPN.com article about the Giants' frustration with him that his pitchers said he refused to go over game film with them because the only baseball he watched were Twins games.

I understand that he's a professional and everything, but don't you think there's a little bit of conflict of interest there....
That one article always bugged me. Brett Tomko sucked ass last year and blamed it on AJ. The team got out to a 9-14 start and the writers blamed AJ. Barry Bonds got on base 120+ times in front of him, and he had the audacity to hit into 26 "rally killing" double plays (oh and drive in 77 RBIs, shh never mind about that...). But I think the one thing that really really pissed off the Giants, was that he won his arbitration case against them. I bet that just annoyed them off to no end.

He was a convienient scapegoat and I think it was very unfair how it was handled.

Here's your article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1793078


He's a classic, "love him if he's on your team, hate him if he's not" type of player. If he signs, within 20 minutes, half the people here will state that, "he's not that bad...", or similar.

:gulp:

DickAllen72
12-30-2004, 04:00 PM
What is up with this Miguel Cairo love? He's nothing more than a backup.

2001 - .291 BA, .366 OBP, 9 RBI, 156 AB
2002 - .250, .307, 23, 184
2003 - .245, .289, 32, 261
2004 - .292, .346, 42, 360

His defense seems to be very solid, but he'll also need to bat.

He's a right handed hitter who hits lefties rather well, which is Willie's weakness. He could platoon with Willie and make a heck of a 2B combination.

I don't understand the Alex Cora love around here. He has something like a .314 career OBP, a career .245 BA, is slow and bats left handed so he wouldn't platoon with Willie. Add to that the charges of nepotism that would occur.

Cairo would be a great fit, and should be inexpensive. Of course Polanco would be much better, but we'd have to trade for him and pay him around $5million. If Iguchi can still throw well enough to play SS as well as 2B, he would fit in nicely as well.

DickAllen72
12-30-2004, 04:04 PM
I think the Sox ought to determine their second base situation first, then worry about catcher. Polanco, --- that Japanese guy Iguchi, or Cairo... one of those guys must be brought in. That's top priority. With a 2B and number 2 hitter in the fold, the catcher position becomes less important IMO. But put Pierzynski in that line up, and you have a pretty good one:

Podsednik LF
Polanco 2B
Thomas DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Pierzynski C
Uribe SS
Crede 3B

That team could definitely compete.

That team would kick butt!
:bandance:

doublem23
12-30-2004, 04:04 PM
He can't steal a base, yet was in the Top 15 in the AL in stolen bases.
Willie's lack of baserunning ability has been well documented. The 19 bases he swiped last year were a result of his amazing speed and probably a poor defensive catcher. I'd be intrigued to see who Willie stole those bases against last year and see how those catchers did. For a guy with his speed that sees regular playing time, he should be snagging 30-40 bases a year minimum.

I'd like to hope Podsednik can teach Willie the art of stealing, but if he couldn't learn from Jose Valentin, one of the better baserunners I've seen, I don't know who can teach Willie.

I did like the suggestion that Willie be a "rundown" specialists. :D:

As for A.J., he's always been a favorite of mine, even dating back to his days in Minnesota. I always like his attitude, but I wonder how well it would gel with the collection of guys we have now, especially with the Sox's history with the Twins. I've never been under the impression that he was bad at game calling; in fact, I remember when he was the backstop for Minnesota, he was renowned for his ability to call the perfect games against the White Sox. I haven't seen enough of him, nor do I know all the ins and outs of the way the Twins are run on the field to know for sure.

However, I would like to land a middle infielder. While I agree catcher is a very weak spot for the Sox, I think that Davis/Burke hurts us a bit less than playing Willie Harris 162 games a year. While I admit I like Pierzynski and Davis as a catcher option, I am still uneasy how he'd fit in. But if he comes at a reduced price, I guess it couldn't hurt that much. Catcher is a real weak spot.

Hey, if it doesn't work out, maybe we could trade him back to Minnesota. :tongue:

tsamdog
12-30-2004, 04:34 PM
What can we expect from the addition of Rock Raines to the coaching staff? I can only think that RR's hire targets Willie Harris for basestealing and more than a handful of others for baserunning. Thoughts?

NardiWasHere
12-30-2004, 05:09 PM
If we sign AJ, i'll make this guy look like an amatuer...:chunks In all seriousness, I have no idea why anyone would want this guy... catcher should be a defensive position and more importantly a LEADER... Aj is neither of these. KW even said that he did not fit the team... Why would SanFran trade Nathan for him and then all of a sudden let him go the next year? There is a reason... also, wasn't AJ talking trash about how he felt "unsafe" playing at the cell along with Doug Mein-(whatever the spelling is)... UGH i hate this guy and every sox fan should too... If we pick him up, the off-season is a total waste and every move kenny made has been in vain, i'm dead serious.... whatever happened to getting, "GRINDERS"? Aj is just a jerk and not even that good....

mdep524
12-30-2004, 05:25 PM
If we sign AJ, i'll make this guy look like an amatuer...:chunks In all seriousness, I have no idea why anyone would want this guy... catcher should be a defensive position and more importantly a LEADER... Aj is neither of these. KW even said that he did not fit the team... Why would SanFran trade Nathan for him and then all of a sudden let him go the next year? There is a reason... also, wasn't AJ talking trash about how he felt "unsafe" playing at the cell along with Doug Mein-(whatever the spelling is)... UGH i hate this guy and every sox fan should too... If we pick him up, the off-season is a total waste and every move kenny made has been in vain, i'm dead serious.... whatever happened to getting, "GRINDERS"? Aj is just a jerk and not even that good....
OK dude, take a few of these
:prozac

If KW signs Pierzynski, which I still think is a long shot, he will have done his homework on the situation- making sure AJ will be a good fit, etc. The guy has a good stick, and his attitude could be a positive for our tame, timid puppy team.

FGarcia34
12-30-2004, 06:04 PM
At www.chisox.com (http://www.chisox.com) it says we made an offer for AJ.

beckett21
12-30-2004, 06:16 PM
As for A.J., he's always been a favorite of mine, even dating back to his days in Minnesota. I always like his attitude, but I wonder how well it would gel with the collection of guys we have now, especially with the Sox's history with the Twins. I've never been under the impression that he was bad at game calling; in fact, I remember when he was the backstop for Minnesota, he was renowned for his ability to call the perfect games against the White Sox. I haven't seen enough of him, nor do I know all the ins and outs of the way the Twins are run on the field to know for sure.
:o:.....:tsk:


Honestly, though--I like him too. I'm far from an expert as far as knowing his ability to call a game but he has always struck me as the kind of guy you would like to have on your side. I agree with ma-gaga on that one.

I could be completely wrong, but I think AJ could help this team.

DickAllen72
12-30-2004, 06:21 PM
At www.chisox.com (http://www.chisox.com) it says we made an offer for AJ.
:bandance:

According to an Oakland Tribune story in late April, some Giants players criticized Pierzynski for not being prepared and refusing to go over hitters with starter Brett Tomko before a game in order to finish a hand of cards. One player went as far as to anonymously refer to him as a "cancer."

The article prompted a clubhouse meeting, in which the pitchers who were quoted -- but not named -- in the article approached Pierzynski.

"They told me they were sorry it happened," Pierzynski said in the May 1 edition of the San Jose Mercury News. "But I said to them, 'Yeah, but now I'm branded the rest of my career as a bad guy.'"

winning ugly 72
12-30-2004, 06:28 PM
i hope we do get pierzynski. kenny obviously see's something in him to think he would'nt cause a problem in the clubhouse

twsoxfan5
12-30-2004, 06:36 PM
mdep I believe you need to relax. Also I guess I am just one of those crazy people that would love to see a starting catcher in our starting catcher role. Both Burke and Davis did a decient job but that is it and niether of them is a starting catcher. Also you dont lose either of those guys if you sign AJ, so why not give him a shot, a change of scenery can do a lot for a guy.

correction mdep you hit it right on the head and nardi you need to relax

Takatsufan
12-30-2004, 08:42 PM
:tomatoaward (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)

doublem23
12-30-2004, 09:29 PM
:tomatoaward (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)We're on top of it, and at the 100th post. http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=560198&postcount=100

:)

jamteh
12-30-2004, 09:37 PM
I have to say this clubhouse cancer stuff is overrated. The Detroit Pistons of the late '80s had nothing but "clubhouse cancers" sans Joe Dumars perhaps, and they kicked butt. I hated Pierzynski when he was with the Twinkies because he always seemed to call a good game against us. I think if he returns to the AL Central, he'll want to stick it to the Twins, which I think is what all of us would like to see. Right? :?:

kruzer31
12-30-2004, 09:38 PM
I like many sox fans am skeptical about signing A.J. I heard on the radio on the way home the sox have made an offer and I was thinking that he might be a very big help in dethroaning that Minnesota Twins. As the catcher he knows alot about the hitters on that team and their tendencies. He knows how they play and when they might bunt or steal and will help deflate the Twins small ball against us. He played for Ron Gardenheimer and knows his style and could be an assest in giving insight to Ozzie about how his former manager manages the game. He could also help our hitters by giving tips on how Radke and Santanna work hitters. Lastly, he will play mind games in the press with his ex teamates since he left a bit ticked off at the Twins organization. He could talk his smack and get in their heads in the papers and on the field. If he comes to the White Sox, I would just love to see him start a brawl with Tori Hunter at the dish. And one more point about Hunter, SHAME SHAME SHAME on Bud Selig for not allowing Keith Foulke to wear his Boston hat with the USA Flag on the side but he continues to allow Tori Hunter to wear his hat tilted to the side like he is some leader of a Gang. Straighten your hat out you punk Hunter.

Jeff

soltrain21
12-30-2004, 09:41 PM
I agree with your last part. The Indians were like that, too, but worse. Heck, Belliard's jersey was untucked 75% of the time.


They need to start enforcing uniform rules. Untucked jerseys, crooked hats, and baggy pants are crazy.

Jjav829
12-30-2004, 09:42 PM
I know one positive about adding A.J. Przynski. He'll help us replace Jose Valentine!

DVsoxfan
12-30-2004, 09:42 PM
Great Points, I agree 100%. The good outweighs any bad that could come from this situation. Nice post, I especially like the makin fun of Toriiiiii for his hat wearing

doublem23
12-30-2004, 09:42 PM
If the Sox don't know the Twins tendencies yet, they can sign their entire roster and it won't do them any good. They've played each other what? 95 times in the last 5 years?

MisterB
12-30-2004, 09:43 PM
I like many sox fans am skeptical about signing A.J. I heard on the radio on the way home the sox have made an offer and I was thinking that he might be a very big help in dethroaning that Minnesota Twins. As the catcher he knows alot about the hitters on that team and their tendencies. He knows how they play and when they might bunt or steal and will help deflate the Twins small ball against us. He played for Ron Gardenheimer and knows his style and could be an assest in giving insight to Ozzie about how his former manager manages the game. He could also help our hitters by giving tips on how Radke and Santanna work hitters.
Jeff The beef the Giants pitchers had with him was that he wouldn't go over the opposing hitters with them before games. It doesn't sound like he'd be much help in that department...

doublem23
12-30-2004, 10:00 PM
from the MLB.com newswire. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041230&content_id=926404&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp)

Also, a snippet from USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/columnist/hunt/2004-12-29-fantasy_x.htm), The Giants found out what the Minnesota Twins already knew — that A.J. Pierzynski isn't the best handler of pitchers

Nard
12-30-2004, 10:03 PM
Another upside to adding AJ is that he's a grade-A ******* and reportedly frustrates the hell out of opposing batters by talking to them and whatnot while they're up there.

I don't see why you wouldn't like to have the guy. One of the best offensive catchers in the league, has a bitter connection with our division rivals, grade-A ******* that everyone else in the majors hates with a passion. Awesome.

zach074
12-30-2004, 10:16 PM
I know he was hated by all of us a few years ago, but if this team gets better by adding him then im all for it.

NonetheLoaiza
12-30-2004, 10:24 PM
I don't think that Kenny would be offering him a contract if he thought that AJ was going to be a cancer, especially after sitting down and interviewing him. It does seem kind of flakey that he said he wouldn't fit the Sox mold, but then he changed his mind. I'm going to have to trust KW on this one. What's the worst that could happen? Unload him at the deadline to some team wanting a catcher? At first, I didn't want AJ, but if thats what KW thinks he should do to improve the team, then I'll bite.

Rocklive99
12-30-2004, 10:24 PM
I haven't even opened the other thread, but I am sure this plenty of opinions that I'm about to say, but oh well. I was disappointed when I heard we made an offer. First off, the attitude/clubhouse cancer (Isn't this one of the speculated, I know the key word is speculated reasons we traded away CLee?), especially with a direct hatred/fued with many of the players and most importantly, pitchers! Also, everyone would run all day on us, he can't throw anybody out. Trading in all that for an average batting average? Eh

MeanFish
12-30-2004, 10:32 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that Ozzie made the call on this one. It seems like overwhelmingly, his biggest issue with players is their perceived lack of intensity, indifference towards victory, etc. Maybe he feels that bringing someone like AJ will rattle things up a little bit, hence the bizarre change of heart by KW.

NowBatting19
12-30-2004, 10:39 PM
Well, you all have made good points, and while I trying my hardest to hate this guy, it's not so easy with all things considered. If the Sox players with some beef work out their differences with AJ, at least enough to compete together, then I too am all for a fresh start. Use the punk to our advantage. But, if it happens, is Burke sent down or kept as a third option? As far as heart and hitting, I like Burke, although there were a few times he couldn't hold on to the ball with a play at the plate. I blame Hunter for that one :angry: .

OzzieBall2004
12-30-2004, 10:41 PM
I don't think that Kenny would be offering him a contract if he thought that AJ was going to be a cancer, especially after sitting down and interviewing him. It does seem kind of flakey that he said he wouldn't fit the Sox mold, but then he changed his mind. I'm going to have to trust KW on this one. What's the worst that could happen? Unload him at the deadline to some team wanting a catcher? At first, I didn't want AJ, but if thats what KW thinks he should do to improve the team, then I'll bite.

Lest we forget it is a business, and if KW would have came right out and said I want this guy, then AJ's agent would have held the bargaining chip. By laying low, gauging interest from other clubs, and then making an offer he played the situation right, AND HE FLEW UNDER THE RADAR.

Granted, AJs radar didnt seem to be picking up too much...I think I read 5 or so other clubs.

Anybody who thinks this is a bad move is crazy. His numbers dont lie, and Davis can catch Freddy (cause he knows him) and Jose (cause he can handle him and speaks spanish fluently). I say bravo if it goes down.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-30-2004, 11:20 PM
Can someone please clue me in? Why am I the only one who thinks Burke can be our starting catcher next season? He was good at the dish and didn't our pitchers have the best overall ERA when he was catching? He can't be worse at calling a game than Olivo was. What's wrong with the dude?

FightingBillini
12-31-2004, 12:38 AM
I know one positive about adding A.J. Przynski. He'll help us replace Jose Valentine!
Everyone, please. His name is a difficult one to spell. Just do as I, and call him Queerzinski. Everyone will know who you are talking about, and your spelling wont be corrected.

MeanFish
12-31-2004, 12:44 AM
Just think, if we pick up Pierzynski and he bats ninth, then our 9 and 1 hitters could be Pea and Pod, then our number two hitter could be Pea Pod if Harris bats second.

dugwood31
12-31-2004, 12:47 AM
Coincidentally, I just got this email from a friend who's a big A's fan and lives in the Bay Area titled "don't sign AJ"

"The man is a cancer not just in the clubhouse. Useyour influence to stop them. Besides, Jermaine dyewill probably kill him."

MUsoxfan
12-31-2004, 01:31 AM
Coincidentally, I just got this email from a friend who's a big A's fan and lives in the Bay Area titled "don't sign AJ"

"The man is a cancer not just in the clubhouse. Useyour influence to stop them. Besides, Jermaine dyewill probably kill him."
Dye's probably not the only one. There has to be some bad blood from his days with the Twins on this team

doctor30th
12-31-2004, 02:05 AM
Dye's probably not the only one. There has to be some bad blood from his days with the Twins on this teamDye wouldn't kill anyone he's one of the most laid back players in the league. The bad blood with AJ and the Sox was him being really competitive, nothing wrong with a player wanting to be really competitive (aren't they supposed to be. He's an old school player that likes to make sure you know he's playing against you.

On top of it, from what I read, Dustin Mohr was standing up for AJ and he was on both teams with him. To me, The San Francisco Clubhouse as a whole was the Cancer, not AJ.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 02:56 AM
Some of you may already know this, some of you don't; I'm all for signing the guy. I think he can do more good than bad for the team. He'll start over Ben Davis and Jamie Burke will spend time going down to AAA and being our 3rd catcher from time to time.

I'll be his # 1 fan as soon as we sign him. He'll instantly be one of my top 5 favorite current players behind Konerko, Buehrle, Rowand, Thomas (in that order). Think of him as our Dennis Rodman. He's a dirty player with a bad rep that JR, KW, PK, Ozzie, and/or Buehrle will find a way to contain.

And whether anyone cares or not, supposedly the offer is a multi-year deal, either 2 or 3 years worth around $3 mill per. I think thats pretty cheap for a top 5 everyday catcher in the game (I-Rod, Posada, Vic Martinez, ??? who else).

Erik The Red
12-31-2004, 03:05 AM
Coincidentally, I just got this email from a friend who's a big A's fan and lives in the Bay Area titled "don't sign AJ"

"The man is a cancer not just in the clubhouse. Useyour influence to stop them. Besides, Jermaine dyewill probably kill him." I don't know about you, but I'm sure glad that we now have the opinion of someone who not only didn't play with him, but is also a fan of the Giants' cross-bay rivals. Can't get any less biased than that.

Chisox003
12-31-2004, 04:34 AM
On top of it, from what I read, Dustin Mohr was standing up for AJ and he was on both teams with him. To me, The San Francisco Clubhouse as a whole was the Cancer, not AJ.
Barry Bonds.......Not a good mix

I dont think hed cause any problems in the clubhouse because for the most part, this seems like a really laid back team....Ozzie and all these guys seem to just have fun, which is great off the field....But on the field, we need a guy like Pierzynski to add some additude and drive other teams crazy (like the twins have done to us for so long).....Go get em!

beck72
12-31-2004, 05:31 AM
AJ knowing the hitters in the league would help. He did well in the AL when he was with a team for a few yrs. Moving to a new team and league isn't always easy. FWIW, I'll take what his Minn. teammates say about him more than guys who were w/ him only 1 yr.

Anyway, I found the quote by Dustin Mohr more important and more telling about AJ. He said the problem wasn't that AJ didn't care, but that he "cares too much". The sox don't need a guy with problems. But they need guys who play the game with intensity and have a drive to win. I think AJ's positives outweigh the negatives.

For all we know, Bonds could have told mgmt get rid of this guy. SF just cares about winning in 2005 or 2006, with the Bonds "window" for a WS closing fast.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned was some personal issues AJ dealt w/ last yr. He reportedly said in an interview something to the effect that 'things have been just as bad off the field than on'. At 27, not everyone has all the answers, juggling one's professional life with one's personal life.

gosox41
12-31-2004, 06:24 AM
I don't think that Kenny would be offering him a contract if he thought that AJ was going to be a cancer, especially after sitting down and interviewing him. It does seem kind of flakey that he said he wouldn't fit the Sox mold, but then he changed his mind. I'm going to have to trust KW on this one. What's the worst that could happen? Unload him at the deadline to some team wanting a catcher? At first, I didn't want AJ, but if thats what KW thinks he should do to improve the team, then I'll bite.
People do change. Maybe this is a wake up call for AJ. Odds are if the giants offered him arbitration he'd be due for a nice raise. Instead he is being offered less then he made last season. Maybe his agent knocked some sense into him about the big money he'd be missing if he doesn't shape up.



Bob

Fredsox
12-31-2004, 06:53 AM
Anyway, I found the quote by Dustin Mohr more important and more telling about AJ. He said the problem wasn't that AJ didn't care, but that he "cares too much". The sox don't need a guy with problems. But they need guys who play the game with intensity and have a drive to win. I think AJ's positives outweigh the negatives.


I think another thing to keep in mind is that the White Sox are not wall-flowers on an individual basis. You have some pretty strong personalities that are not afraid to tell someone to straighten out when they get out of line. Specifically we can talk about Guillen, Konerko, Buehrle to start with. I would imagine that Rowand will also speak up. These guys are professionals and I would be very surprised is they let anybody be much of a problem. As an example, last year when Thomas was in one of his moods and Konerko spoke up. If PK isn't afraid to take on Thomas he sure won't be afraid to take on AJP.

CecilCooper
12-31-2004, 07:29 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041230sox,1,4247471.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

"Believed to be less than the $3.5 mil he made for the giants last year."

Also, "still in running for Iguchi, but may drop out soon."

I'm encouraged by KW's willingness to address holes in the lineup.

beck72
12-31-2004, 08:20 AM
I think another thing to keep in mind is that the White Sox are not wall-flowers on an individual basis. You have some pretty strong personalities that are not afraid to tell someone to straighten out when they get out of line. Specifically we can talk about Guillen, Konerko, Buehrle to start with. I would imagine that Rowand will also speak up. These guys are professionals and I would be very surprised is they let anybody be much of a problem. As an example, last year when Thomas was in one of his moods and Konerko spoke up. If PK isn't afraid to take on Thomas he sure won't be afraid to take on AJP.

I agree. the sox have enough veterans that they can handle AJ being a little obnoxious and annoying if that's the "baggage" he's coming with. Minn. had a lot more younger guys and he wasn't a problem w/ them. SF is the leader of MLB's geriatric ward, they probably had less tolerance than most teams for AJ's antics.

hellenicsoxfan
12-31-2004, 09:26 AM
I've gotten tired of seeing the Twinkies kicking the Sox butts the last few years and the Sox sitting back and taking it. If it takes a hard ass like Pierzynski to light a fire and add some passion, it may be a worthwhile signing.

Flight #24
12-31-2004, 10:19 AM
People do change. Maybe this is a wake up call for AJ. Odds are if the giants offered him arbitration he'd be due for a nice raise. Instead he is being offered less then he made last season. Maybe his agent knocked some sense into him about the big money he'd be missing if he doesn't shape up.



Bob
Exactly. The way I see it, he's probably got an offer around $3mil per with incentives. After his season last year, he was probably anticipating around $5mil+, instead he's taking a paycut because of attitude and supposed work ethic problems. He's therefore likely to be on a mission to prove himself. For $3mil, I think that's a great bet for the Sox. I know the OBP isn't great, but comparing to what we had otherwise, his average at the bottom of the lineup and his ability to play Ozzieball will come in handy. And if channelled properly, I think his attitude & energy can be a huge asset to what has been a bit of a limpwristed team.

As for his D, I'll defer to Daver & co who know better, but I don't remember it being cited as a negative during his time with the Twins. I just don't know that the offensive sinkhole that is catcher for us is currently offset by outstanding D as it is. So upgrading the O and possibly decreasing the D even more might be a net improvement.

Yes, there are more pressing needs, but absent any great options to fill them, upgrading C is better than doing nothing. And with a contract that's supposedly less than the $3.5 he made last year, I'd hope we'd at least be able to go get another ML option for 2B like Cairo/Cora.

Happy New Year to all, here's to a better Sox season in 2005 and better 05's than '04s for everyone in WSI Nation!

johnny_mostil
12-31-2004, 10:21 AM
Can someone please clue me in? Why am I the only one who thinks Burke can be our starting catcher next season? He was good at the dish and didn't our pitchers have the best overall ERA when he was catching? He can't be worse at calling a game than Olivo was. What's wrong with the dude?Because Jamie Burke is 33 years old and spent most of six seasons in AAA ball before he was called up for the first time and he has 133 total at bats in the major leagues. I know he's a .331 hitter in those at bats.

While he was in AAA, the Angels let Matt Walbeck, Chad Kreuter, a 38-year-old Charlie O'Brien, Jorge Fabregas, Shawn Wooten, and Todd Greene catch -- this was before the Molinas showed up. There is a reason he didn't get a call up, year after year, season after season, while the Angels tried all sorts of washed up, half-talented losers as backup catchers. The reason? They were still clearly enough better than Burke was that he wasn't worth even a cup of coffee. So after a minor league career hitting a weak .280 in the hitter-friendly PCL, Burke, in 133 at bats in the majors, suddenly hits .331.

Perhaps the White Sox are just afraid the adrenaline is going to wear off?

It's a nice story, but that's all it is. Burke, sooner or later, will start hitting .240 again with no power, no walks, and after that, no paycheck. Unless the Arizona Diamondbacks get to him with a multi-year contract, that is.

As to the second point, was't Burke Mark Buehrle's personal catcher? CERA would almost certainly be affected by that. Catcher ERA usually doesn't correlate from season to season once you control for who is acually pitching. It's an entertainment statistic but it's not usually meaningful. And finally, he's caught 320 innings in the majors, which is not really enough to draw any conclusions anyway.

johnny_mostil
12-31-2004, 10:29 AM
As for his D, I'll defer to Daver & co who know better, but I don't remember it being cited as a negative during his time with the Twins.
It wasn't. He was called one of the best defenders in the league. The Twins started trashing him only after they traded him, perhaps to justify their handing the job to Mauer. (Aside: Other organizations routinely lie to their fans, too, and treat their players like excrement, but for some reason, other team's fans don't punish the teams for a decade for doing it and other town's newspapers don't publish columns pretending that their team is uniquely devious and evil.)

I don't know how people who "know better" judge defense in catchers when professional scouts admit they don't really know how to do it, either, and no remotely reliable numerical methods have been found. Carlton Fisk comes to mind. His defensive rating was all the way from god-awful to brilliant, depending on who you asked. Blocking pitches sounds great but a few bases here and there don't really add up to a lot of runs. Evaluations by former catchers, professional and amateur, might be useful, or they might be the baseball equivalent of figure skating judging. Elegance and effectiveness often go together, but not always.

chisox77
12-31-2004, 10:39 AM
Adding A.J. would be a plus. He is a very good hitter and an adequate receiver. He is a veteran and has played for very good teams.

I would feel much better about our White Sox if he signs. This thing about his attitude may be played up too much, but if he helps the Sox contend, it would be worth it.

It would be a solid addition to a revamped team. It would also make the White Sox an interesting bunch to follow, with some of that brashness added to the mix.

Knucksie
12-31-2004, 10:39 AM
I've always thought AJ was a very unlikeable guy. These rumors of him being a "cancer" have been around since his Twins days and continue to follow him.

Here are some questions I have to ask. Why would the Twinkies give up on an All Star catcher for a young, unproven (although talented) rookie and Henry Blanco? I know they are a small market team, but... That scenario troubles me.

Is AJ talented? Of course. Is his ability on the field an upgrade to what we have on the field? No doubt. Have we had enough of these guys for the past several years? Belle, Cordero, Flubber Wells, Garland, etc.

Since this appears to still be Frank's team, can we afford to have another cancer? Another intangible is the media. You know they will be all over this guy from day one (aren't they already?). Can he handle the lingering rumors and pressure? Can he handle the North's, Borass', Smart ass Bernstein's, etc with fans calling in ragging him?

I like the idea of him in our lineup but the potential for disaster scares me.

On the other hand, it's not a huge investment and appears to be a well calculated risk by KW. Besides, what other options do we have?

mdep524
12-31-2004, 10:57 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041230sox,1,4247471.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

"Believed to be less than the $3.5 mil he made for the giants last year."

Also, "still in running for Iguchi, but may drop out soon."

I'm encouraged by KW's willingness to address holes in the lineup.
I'll say this again- if the Sox come away with both Pierzynski and Iguchi next week, I would be very happy with the offseason, and very excited about '05.

chisox77
12-31-2004, 10:59 AM
Good points, Knucksie, but it's hard not to conclude that the Sox need an upgrade at catcher.

The chances to get Vizquel and Eckstein are gone. May as well snag the last significant chance to land a free agent in this offseason. With the addition of Pierzynski, the lineup looks pretty decent.

ja1022
12-31-2004, 11:02 AM
I've always thought AJ was a very unlikeable guy. These rumors of him being a "cancer" have been around since his Twins days and continue to follow him.

Here are some questions I have to ask. Why would the Twinkies give up on an All Star catcher for a young, unproven (although talented) rookie and Henry Blanco? I know they are a small market team, but... That scenario troubles me.

Is AJ talented? Of course. Is his ability on the field an upgrade to what we have on the field? No doubt. Have we had enough of these guys for the past several years? Belle, Cordero, Flubber Wells, Garland, etc.

Since this appears to still be Frank's team, can we afford to have another cancer? Another intangible is the media. You know they will be all over this guy from day one (aren't they already?). Can he handle the lingering rumors and pressure? Can he handle the North's, Borass', Smart ass Bernstein's, etc with fans calling in ragging him?

I like the idea of him in our lineup but the potential for disaster scares me.

On the other hand, it's not a huge investment and appears to be a well calculated risk by KW. Besides, what other options do we have?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pierza.01.shtml

I haven't sifted through all the posts here, but I tend to agree. As we've seen, chemistry is a real delicate balance of personalities. You look at Przzzrszinznznersski's stats and you know there's an underlying reason nobody wants him. Remember the stories out of San Francisco last year about what a turd he was, and how the team in general, and pitchers in particular couldn't stand him? Now he's without a team again. Also, last year the guy was a major rally killer (more GDPs than Paulie). I like his stats, but I don't like his intangibles.

mdep524
12-31-2004, 11:04 AM
Here are some questions I have to ask. Why would the Twinkies give up on an All Star catcher for a young, unproven (although talented) rookie and Henry Blanco? I know they are a small market team, but... That scenario troubles me. Two reasons: one, the Twins are cheap. Very cheap. They didn't want to pay too many high salaryies, so they let some players leave- AJ, LaTroy, Guardado, etc. Secondly, and probably more importantly, they had phenom Joe "The Franchise" Mauer waiting in the wings to take over at catcher, so it was inevitable that AJ had to be moved.

Is AJ talented? Of course. Is his ability on the field an upgrade to what we have on the field? No doubt. Have we had enough of these guys for the past several years? Belle, Cordero, Flubber Wells, Garland, etc.

Since this appears to still be Frank's team, can we afford to have another cancer? Another intangible is the media. You know they will be all over this guy from day one (aren't they already?). Can he handle the lingering rumors and pressure? Can he handle the North's, Borass', Smart ass Bernstein's, etc with fans calling in ragging him? First, I don't think this is "Frank's team." I love Frank, but the past years have shown he cannot be depended on to carry/lead a team. I don't think this is anybody's team right now- the closest would be Konerko's or Ozzie's.

Second, AJ has never had a problem handling the media, so I don't think Bernsey and North will be a negative factor.

I like the idea of him in our lineup but the potential for disaster scares me.

On the other hand, it's not a huge investment and appears to be a well calculated risk by KW. Besides, what other options do we have?It is a risk, but I agree with you: it's a good one.

DickAllen72
12-31-2004, 11:07 AM
I'll say this again- if the Sox come away with both Pierzynski and Iguchi next week, I would be very happy with the offseason, and very excited about '05.

You and me both, bro!
:bandance:

tsamdog
12-31-2004, 11:13 AM
Once again, KW is involved in a risk/reward scenario. I think for the money offered, the AJ risk is a good one. That being said, there is no guarantee that AJ will agree to come to the Sox. First, if there is 'bad blood', then it probably flows both ways. Second, KW publicly stated less than two weeks ago that AJ was not a good fit for the club. Finally, if the price has dropped under the 3M number, one would have to think that others would make an offer.

johnny_mostil
12-31-2004, 11:16 AM
Two reasons: one, the Twins are cheap. Very cheap. They didn't want to pay too many high salaryies, so they let some players leave- AJ, LaTroy, Guardado, etc. Secondly, and probably more importantly, they had phenom Joe "The Franchise" Mauer waiting in the wings to take over at catcher, so it was inevitable that AJ had to be moved.
That bears repeating. Mauer was "The Best Prospect in Baseball" and AJ was blocking him. The Twins went with Blanco after Mauer got hurt, LeCroy was the other catcher (and he got hurt, too). Mauer had to play because he was supposed to be brilliant, and AJ at $3.5M to be a backup catcher was too much.

Further, the got Joe Nathan for him, a closer. It's not like they dumped him. The Giants are now probably trashing him for PR reasons, to justify their bizarre decision to give a ridiculously bad hitter a multiyear contract on a team that is hobbled by not having anyone remotely scary enough to bat behind Bonds to keep teams from walking him 230 times a season. This is because the Giants are liars, like most of major league baseball.

johnny_mostil
12-31-2004, 11:18 AM
Finally, if the price has dropped under the 3M number, one would have to think that others would make an offer.
Yeah, but where else would he think he had a good chance of beating out the incumbent catcher in spring training? The Rangers, maybe? He's too young to go the automatic-backup route.

johnny_mostil
12-31-2004, 11:27 AM
Also, last year the guy was a major rally killer (more GDPs than Paulie). I like his stats, but I don't like his intangibles.
OK, ja1022, you win the Bad Conclusion of the Week award.

AJ's GiDPs doubled last year. Despite virtually no strikeouts, he usually GiDPs about 12 times a year, but last year, 27. Think there might be a reason?

AJ batted 6th most of the time last year, more than 240 times. Who batted fourth for the Giants, and what was his OBP? Bonds. .609. More than half of AJ's at bats were with runners on. Think that might have led to a few more GiDPs? Hmm??

fquaye149
12-31-2004, 11:29 AM
is anyone reminded of when adam banks went from the hawks to the ducks?

"dont' forget what team you're on..."

tsamdog
12-31-2004, 11:30 AM
Yeah, but where else would he think he had a good chance of beating out the incumbent catcher in spring training? The Rangers, maybe? He's too young to go the automatic-backup route.
You're right JM, he's only 28, I think. One would think that he would be entering his prime about now. If his mindset is to compete for a starting job, then that's the attitude we need.

Knucksie
12-31-2004, 12:06 PM
First, I don't think this is "Frank's team." I love Frank, but the past years have shown he cannot be depended on to carry/lead a team. I don't think this is anybody's team right now- the closest would be Konerko's or Ozzie's.
IMHO, as long as Frank is with the SOX, he will be the central figure on the team because of the Chicago media's love to discredit him whether their criticism is valid or not. I think the media will continue to make this "Frank's team."

I hate the media.

JackParkman
12-31-2004, 12:40 PM
is anyone reminded of when adam banks went from the hawks to the ducks?

"dont' forget what team you're on..."Ah yes, the great team borders controversy. They really stuck it to Coach Reilly. Who could forget it?
Not to get off on a tangent, but Jawbreaker rules.

MeanFish
12-31-2004, 12:52 PM
It's a funny thing about AJ Pierzynski. Everyone in the media considers him to be a cancer, and he had a bad run of it in San Francisco (where everyone in the clubhouse is a class act). The one quote that really sticks out at me is the one where Dustan Mohr explains that if AJ has done anything wrong, it's that he cares too much.

I think that a couple weeks ago, KW did conclude that AJ wasn't a fit for the White Sox. Then I think he had a sit-down with Ozzie, who came to his own conclusion that we needed someone to light a fire under the team's collective rear. I remember his comments after the Twins celebrated their division win on our field last year, and I think that he wants to get a guy who can hit and who wants to win as much as he and KW do. AJ, quirks and all, just might be that guy. Will there be friction? Of course. The question is whether it is a positive or a negative, and that remains to be seen.

Flight #24
12-31-2004, 02:00 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pierza.01.shtml

I haven't sifted through all the posts here, but I tend to agree. As we've seen, chemistry is a real delicate balance of personalities. You look at Przzzrszinznznersski's stats and you know there's an underlying reason nobody wants him. Remember the stories out of San Francisco last year about what a turd he was, and how the team in general, and pitchers in particular couldn't stand him? Now he's without a team again. Also, last year the guy was a major rally killer (more GDPs than Paulie). I like his stats, but I don't like his intangibles.
It's fairly simple. Twins let him go because the needed a closer (with Guardado & Hawkins gone), they had Mauer ready to play, and AJ was going to make $3.5mil. SF let him go at least partially because he was set to make about $5mil in arbitration or more. It's not like either team was trying to dump him because he was an overall negative to their franchises.

At under $3mil, and with a chip on his shoulder to show he's a hard worker and not a bad guy, he's got the talent, ozzieball skills, and hustle/fire to make this a good risk, IMO. There are areas I'd rather upgrade, but I'll trust KW that he can either also get those done, or that at least this signing won't be what prevents that from happening.

Mohoney
12-31-2004, 02:20 PM
So is Paul K, and the only pitcher that fields the position well is Garland.
I always thought Buehrle looked good defensively, but you're right that Garland is, by far, the best defensive pitcher on the staff.

voodoochile
12-31-2004, 02:22 PM
I always thought Buehrle looked good defensively, but you're right that Garland is, by far, the best defensive pitcher on the staff.
Yes, I don't understand why Buehrle wouldn't get a mention. He always seems to be right there defensively.

Mohoney
12-31-2004, 02:50 PM
If we signed A.J. and Alex Cora, and kept Burke as a 25th man, could he possibly play some 3B in addition to catching until Frank gets back?

Let's say A.J. catches approximately 100 games and Davis catches approximately 40 games. If Burke catches the rest of the games and plays some 3B, I think he's more worthy of a roster spot than a guy like Adkins or Grilli as a 12th pitcher.

Right now, our only contingency plan in the event of Crede posting another horrible season is to play Uribe at 3B. If we added A.J. and Alex Cora, and kept Burke, we would have enough flexibility to pinch-hit for Crede late in games or sit him altogether in some other games.

A 25 man roster that looks like this would provide some good depth/flexibility/insurance:

Starting Pitchers:
Buehrle, Garcia, El Duque, Contreras, Garland

Relief Pitchers:
Cotts, Politte, Vizcaino, Hermanson, Marte, Shingo

Catchers:
Davis, A.J.

Infielders:
Konerko, Gload, Harris, Cora, Crede, Uribe

Outfielders:
Podsednik, Rowand, Dye, Everett, Timo

Utility:
Burke

This can tide us over until Frank gets back.

WhiteSoxNation
12-31-2004, 02:55 PM
Personally i wanna see Cred start on the bench...If the signies come through this would be nice.

1. Pods 'CF
2. Rowand LF'
3. Thomas DH'
4. Konerko 1B'
5. Dye RF'
6. Uribe 3B'
7. Pierzynski C'
8. Cora SS'
9. Harris 2b'

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 03:02 PM
I think that a couple weeks ago, KW did conclude that AJ wasn't a fit for the White Sox. Then I think he had a sit-down with Ozzie, who came to his own conclusion that we needed someone to light a fire under the team's collective rear. I remember his comments after the Twins celebrated their division win on our field last year, and I think that he wants to get a guy who can hit and who wants to win as much as he and KW do. AJ, quirks and all, just might be that guy. Will there be friction? Of course. The question is whether it is a positive or a negative, and that remains to be seen.

You're so right. When's the last time you saw or heard a White Sox player complaining about the teams commitment to winning and how bad they want it? If I was on that team, I'd chew Joe Crede out after every at-bat in which he strikes out, immediately looks at the ground, and walks back like he's a little kid in little league. I'd tell Willie Harris that he needs to learn how to make contact in clutch situations. I'd get on Jon Garland and let that surfer punk know that he hasn't proven anything and until he does he better kiss ass to even keep his spot in the rotation and not point fingers or talk smack to the media.

Now that I think about it, this team is spoiled (manager wise, it seemed like Manuel let these guys get away with murder) and needs a kick in the ass. If AJ can provide a portion of that, bring him in. Hell, if he comes here and is a dick like everyone says he is (75% of those morons don't know squat and it's just word of mouth), than hopefully the rest of the team will come together and dislike him, and even that way he'll be the reason the team came together.

fquaye149
12-31-2004, 03:07 PM
i dont' know whose 2005 predictions are more outrageous - whitesoxfan84 or whitesoxnation

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 03:10 PM
Holy Crap! I doubt anyone has made mention of this because everyone is worried about his bad rep, but check this stat out...

2004: 471 AB, 27 SO
Career: 1899 AB, 220 SO

His OBP is low but this guy is an AMAZING contact guy. A .294 career average for a catcher? Oh my God, SIGN THIS GUY!!!

SomebodyToldMe
12-31-2004, 03:13 PM
A.J.'s one of those guys for me that if the Sox sign him, fine.
If not, fine.

That's how I feel.

voodoochile
12-31-2004, 03:26 PM
A.J.'s one of those guys for me that if the Sox sign him, fine.
If not, fine.

That's how I feel.
Well, don't go out on a limb or anything...:?:

MeanFish
12-31-2004, 03:30 PM
Well, don't go out on a limb or anything...:?:
He could work for ESPN!

CWSGuy406
12-31-2004, 04:05 PM
Coincidentally, I just got this email from a friend who's a big A's fan and lives in the Bay Area titled "don't sign AJ"

"The man is a cancer not just in the clubhouse. Useyour influence to stop them. Besides, Jermaine dyewill probably kill him."
Was your friend inside the Minny clubhouse from '01-'03? Or, was he inside the San Fran clubhouse last season?

Brian26
12-31-2004, 04:28 PM
Holy Crap! I doubt anyone has made mention of this because everyone is worried about his bad rep, but check this stat out...

2004: 471 AB, 27 SO
Career: 1899 AB, 220 SO
Wow. I think Jose had 220 K's in the month of July alone last year.

SomebodyToldMe
12-31-2004, 04:58 PM
He could work for ESPN!
ha

Seriously. I don't care either way about him. Whatever.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 05:19 PM
Just look at my sig and try to make me believe he doesn't fit in. SIGN HIM KW!!!!

Foulke You
12-31-2004, 05:25 PM
no details on years or amount of money but AJ's agent confirms the Sox have made an offer. Link to the article here:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041230&content_id=926404&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

SOXintheBURGH
12-31-2004, 05:28 PM
Sigh...


This offseason seems a lot longer than usual for some reason.

Brian26
12-31-2004, 05:54 PM
Just look at my sig and try to make me believe he doesn't fit in. SIGN HIM KW!!!!
Ugh. I hate photoshop.

BigHurt359300
12-31-2004, 06:02 PM
I dont think AJs bat is enough to make him a "likeable" or even tolerable player on this team, besides he doesnt care about the pitchers, he goes and plays cards during pregame, Kenny did offer him less than the 3.5 mil he made last year, put that money towards Iguchi, or Cora, not, som a****** who doesnt care!

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2004, 06:27 PM
I dont think AJs bat is enough to make him a "likeable" or even tolerable player on this team, besides he doesnt care about the pitchers, he goes and plays cards during pregame, Kenny did offer him less than the 3.5 mil he made last year, put that money towards Iguchi, or Cora, not, som a****** who doesnt care!
..... the only reason I'll take it easy on you is because of your name. I'm a big Big Hurt fan. But what you just said, remember that when we win the division and A.J. is having a career year for the pale hose.

His contract won't exceed $3 mill per, 3 years, $9 mill looks good enough to get him. I hope it's announced next week.

BigHurt359300
12-31-2004, 06:50 PM
..... the only reason I'll take it easy on you is because of your name. I'm a big Big Hurt fan. But what you just said, remember that when we win the division and A.J. is having a career year for the pale hose.

His contract won't exceed $3 mill per, 3 years, $9 mill looks good enough to get him. I hope it's announced next week.
I'd take it, I still wouldnt like him, but if he has a great year for us, IF he signs hear, it will be great, but i just dont think he has the right attitude for this team, maybe ozzie can set him straight!!!

Personally, Im still waiting for Carlos Beltran out there in Center!!!!!!! lol :redneck

hempsox
12-31-2004, 08:38 PM
No A.J. for me thanks. I already had one dilemma with Joey Belle a few seasons back where it was impossible to root for the player due to the fact that I hated him while on other teams.

A cancer is still a cancer no matter how small.

BigHurt359300
12-31-2004, 10:07 PM
No A.J. for me thanks. I already had one dilemma with Joey Belle a few seasons back where it was impossible to root for the player due to the fact that I hated him while on other teams.

A cancer is still a cancer no matter how small.
Thank You!!!!

I agree with u especially the last part, I raely dislike AJ, 97% attitude 3% Sox Killing

When Ben Davis played every day he actually did suprisingly well, when they took him out and use Burke every once in awhile Davis was worse, I still would rather have Iguchi or Cora

.......still waiting for Carlos Beltran :redneck

BRDSR
12-31-2004, 11:01 PM
Thank You!!!!

I agree with u especially the last part, I raely dislike AJ, 97% attitude 3% Sox Killing



While only 3% of your dislike is attributed to AJs sox killing, I have to say that thats a terrible reason not to want a player on the White Sox. If he's on the White Sox he won't kill the Sox at all, and will in fact help. If he signs with the DRays he can help kill the Sox 9 times per season. I agree with you that I don't particularly like his attitude, but thats not enough of a reason not to sign him if he's an otherwise good fit. Especially because there isn't much else to spend the money on. We could spend it on Cora or Iguchi but...I don't really want Cora, he seems too much like Willie. I would like to have Iguchi, and if it comes down to one or the other I'd take Iguchi, but I think we might have enough to sign both and if so I'd love to see AJ on the Sox starting 60-80% of our games.

BigHurt359300
12-31-2004, 11:35 PM
While only 3% of your dislike is attributed to AJs sox killing, I have to say that thats a terrible reason not to want a player on the White Sox. If he's on the White Sox he won't kill the Sox at all, and will in fact help. If he signs with the DRays he can help kill the Sox 9 times per season. I agree with you that I don't particularly like his attitude, but thats not enough of a reason not to sign him if he's an otherwise good fit. Especially because there isn't much else to spend the money on. We could spend it on Cora or Iguchi but...I don't really want Cora, he seems too much like Willie. I would like to have Iguchi, and if it comes down to one or the other I'd take Iguchi, but I think we might have enough to sign both and if so I'd love to see AJ on the Sox starting 60-80% of our games.

Granted he might be a good fit, and he is a good player, but so was Albert Belle, but i hated him, Id rather have Iguchi than AJ but thats me, and Cora is amazing defenively, but if hes on the DRays he will be the only one killing us, cuz u know, they arnet that great, even though we lost to them last year, i didnt say AJ was a bad player, i just hate is attitude, and i think it is enough to not sign him!

JKryl
12-31-2004, 11:46 PM
Granted he might be a good fit, and he is a good player, but so was Albert Belle, but i hated him, Id rather have Iguchi than AJ but thats me, and Cora is amazing defenively, but if hes on the DRays he will be the only one killing us, cuz u know, they arnet that great, even though we lost to them last year, i didnt say AJ was a bad player, i just hate is attitude, and i think it is enough to not sign him!
Wait a minute. Albert Belle was a good fit?? Where?? Not on the Sox. All he did is sulk and agitate. He was a Big Hurt on steroids, so to speak.

chisox77
12-31-2004, 11:56 PM
If it makes the Sox better, then A. J. should be signed.

The possible lineup for 2005 looks pretty decent, and personally, I don't think the Sox will be hurting for much power. They still have some pretty good, productive hitters on the club. KW kept the core (Lee, Magglio, Valentin, etc.)together for four years, tried to build around it, and the Sox averaged about 84 wins a year. Something else had to be attemtped. The result is a better pitching staff and a slightly better defensive team with more speed. This could produce 88-93 wins.

BigHurt359300
01-01-2005, 01:10 AM
Wait a minute. Albert Belle was a good fit?? Where?? Not on the Sox. All he did is sulk and agitate. He was a Big Hurt on steroids, so to speak.
I meant that ALbert Belle wasnt a good fit, sorry for the mixup!

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 02:52 AM
well does this mean we are not gunna get igichu

mdep524
01-01-2005, 11:28 AM
I would like to have Iguchi, and if it comes down to one or the other I'd take Iguchi, but I think we might have enough to sign both.
I think we do have enough... Iguchi and AJ makes the offseason an A.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 12:13 PM
I think we do have enough... Iguchi and AJ makes the offseason an A.Given they wanted Clement and got El Duque, and the difference is about 4.5 million bucks, one can assume they have enough to sign AJ and a middle infielder.

You have to wonder if As The Cubbies Turn up on Addison has the Sox ownership smelling just a little blood in the baseball-market water? Consider that the offseason has been an endless "Dis-sammy-lation" festival. Couple that with dismissing and driving off the public face of the company in the broadcast booth. The Cubs are behaving in a way that belies their fuzzy, cuddly image and shows the darkest Macchiavellian side of the corporate America they inhabit. If the White Sox treated people like that this offseason they'd be treated like the Capone Mob in the newspapers. They get a free ticket, but there is a breaking point, at least outside the Tribune newsroom...

mdep524
01-01-2005, 12:44 PM
Given they wanted Clement and got El Duque, and the difference is about 4.5 million bucks, one can assume they have enough to sign AJ and a middle infielder.
Plus, IIRC there was $2 million extra on top of the Matt Clement money that would have been earmarked for a middle infielder/cheap addition. So that's 4.5 + 2 = $6.5 million to spend, definitely enough for both AJ and Iguchi.

You have to wonder if As The Cubbies Turn up on Addison has the Sox ownership smelling just a little blood in the baseball-market water? Consider that the offseason has been an endless "Dis-sammy-lation" festival. Couple that with dismissing and driving off the public face of the company in the broadcast booth. The Cubs are behaving in a way that belies their fuzzy, cuddly image and shows the darkest Macchiavellian side of the corporate America they inhabit. If the White Sox treated people like that this offseason they'd be treated like the Capone Mob in the newspapers. They get a free ticket, but there is a breaking point, at least outside the Tribune newsroom...
Wow, well put johnny. :smile:

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 01:30 PM
but we dont have much more to spend and we offered pierzynski around a 3 year 9 million dollar deal and iguchi was offered a 2 year 4 million dollar contract

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 01:34 PM
Plus, IIRC there was $2 million extra on top of the Matt Clement money that would have been earmarked for a middle infielder/cheap addition. So that's 4.5 + 2 = $6.5 million to spend, definitely enough for both AJ and Iguchi.
Plus, we're assuming that the budget is inflexible. The real cold hearted Lionel Barrymore character in the AL Central with the glinting budget cudgel is the Twinkie owner, not Reinsdorf. There's no way that the Twin GM will be allowed to go thirty-eight cents over budget. Will KW get an extra million if he can justify it? Probably. Like I said, there may be blood in the Chicago River water.

That, however, doesn't mean the White Sox should just spend it unless it makes sense. The bidding for Clement, Milton, Wright, etc., was just nuts. They could have had Clement for another couple million, but why pay Matt Clement significantly more than Buehrle and Garcia?

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 01:35 PM
but we dont have much more to spend and we offered pierzynski around a 3 year 9 million dollar deal and iguchi was offered a 2 year 4 million dollar contract
You know baseball deals are back-loaded, right? The Sox have more money coming free in 2006 and 2007.

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 01:38 PM
ya true i think we will get pierzynski not sure about ichugi

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 01:40 PM
any news on wheather he will sign or wat?

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 01:50 PM
cmon people please post stuff.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 01:50 PM
any news on wheather he will sign or wat?
The White Sox are "flying under the radar" and, unlike the Yankees, do not issue hour-by-hour off-the-record updates to the media on contract negotiations, which players under contract to other teams they'd like to have (but would never, ever, remotely tamper with!), phony stories about Jason Giambi's steroid-induced illnesses, or how unfair it is for God's Chosen Ballclub to go four whole long terrible years without a World Series title.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 01:52 PM
cmon people please post stuff.
Most of the White Sox Nation are sleeping off their hangovers. Too much Boone's Farm does that to people.

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 01:53 PM
ya but for tyhe people who are on post

do u think we will sign him and iguchi

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 01:59 PM
johnny u think we will sign peirzynski and iguchi

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 02:04 PM
ya but for tyhe people who are on post

do u think we will sign him and iguchi
If I had to bet $2 each...

Yes, I think the White Sox will sign Pierzynski. Where else can he go and probably start? As need goes, the White Sox fit him better than almost anybody in that (1) they don't have a legit #1 catcher and (2) their best (only?) catching prospect is 19 and in A ball. You can't go through a season with two major league catchers in your organization, sooner or later you need a third. If the Sox don't sign AJ, they'll be looking at a Pat Borders type by June.

No, I don't think they'll sign Iguchi. He tested the MLB waters before without moving and he can get more than the Sox will or should pay by staying in Japan. I think it's a negotiating ploy more than a serious interest in MLB.

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 02:08 PM
u think we will get cora then?

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 02:29 PM
u think we will get cora then?
Again, if I had to bet $2, that's who I'd be betting on. Alex Cora can play short as well as second, he's got a family connection to the White Sox, he is capable of putting up Luis Castillo type numbers. If he doesn't beat Willie out, he's a more than capable utility infielder.

BigHurt359300
01-01-2005, 02:30 PM
ya but for tyhe people who are on post

do u think we will sign him and iguchi
I hate to say it, but I think the White Sox will sign AJ. Even though i really dont like him, is bat might help, but his attitude doesnt, I reallly hope we do sign Iguchi!! Maybe it will be wwasier for him to adjust with Shingo there to help him adjust!!!!!

Still waiting for Beltran................:redneck

Man Soo Lee
01-01-2005, 03:09 PM
You know baseball deals are back-loaded, right? The Sox have more money coming free in 2006 and 2007. There isn't much money coming free in 2006, at least not without opening significant holes.

Guaranteed raises to Buehrle (2M), Garcia (1M), Marte (1M), Dye (1M), Hermanson (1M), Uribe (1M), El Duque (1M), and Podsednik (1.35M) will add about $9.35 million to the 2006 payroll. Garland, Rowand, and Crede will be arbitration eligible again, so that would be another $2+ million.

Konerko (8.75M) and Shingo (2.5M) are free agents. Timo (1M) should be non-tendered. Buying out Everett's option year saves $3.5M. Buying out Politte would save .8M or picking up his option would be a .3M increase. That's an estimated $16.55 million in departing salary.

The net result is about $5 Million in free money (based on current payroll) and a team without Konerko or Shingo.

Also, Frank will likely exercise his player option for $10M in 2006, which would be a $2M increase. The Sox can buy him out for $3.5M, saving $4.5M from the 2005 payroll. That gives you ~$10M to play with, but no Konerko, Frank, or Shingo. If Frank is healthy this year, they may try to extend his contract at less than the $10M option, but he won't come cheap since he can pocket a $3.5M buyout and shop for a new contract.

SoxFanTillDeath
01-01-2005, 03:12 PM
If I had to bet $2 each...

Yes, I think the White Sox will sign Pierzynski. Where else can he go and probably start? As need goes, the White Sox fit him better than almost anybody in that (1) they don't have a legit #1 catcher and (2) their best (only?) catching prospect is 19 and in A ball. You can't go through a season with two major league catchers in your organization, sooner or later you need a third. If the Sox don't sign AJ, they'll be looking at a Pat Borders type by June.

No, I don't think they'll sign Iguchi. He tested the MLB waters before without moving and he can get more than the Sox will or should pay by staying in Japan. I think it's a negotiating ploy more than a serious interest in MLB.
I agree with you on both counts. The Sox will get AJ, whether us fans like it or not. That means another minor league trip for Jamie Burke, who I kinda feel bad for, but you can't let personal feelings get in the way of improving your team.

I also believe the Sox are flying under the radar for Alex Cora. Who knows if we will get him, but I do think that KW is efforting that as we speak. Only time will tell...

SoxFanTillDeath
01-01-2005, 03:14 PM
There isn't much money coming free in 2006, at least not without opening significant holes.

Guaranteed raises to Buehrle (2M), Garcia (1M), Marte (1M), Dye (1M), Hermanson (1M), Uribe (1M), El Duque (1M), and Podsednik (1.35M) will add about $9.35 million to the 2006 payroll. Garland, Rowand, and Crede will be arbitration eligible again, so that would be another $2+ million.

Konerko (8.75M) and Shingo (2.5M) are free agents. Timo (1M) should be non-tendered. Buying out Everett's option year saves $3.5M. Buying out Politte would save .8M or picking up his option would be a .3M increase. That's an estimated $16.55 million in departing salary.

The net result is about $5 Million in free money (based on current payroll) and a team without Konerko or Shingo.

Also, Frank will likely exercise his player option for $10M in 2006, which would be a $2M increase. The Sox can buy him out for $3.5M, saving $4.5M from the 2005 payroll. That gives you ~$10M to play with, but no Konerko, Frank, or Shingo. If Frank is healthy this year, they may try to extend his contract at less than the $10M option, but he won't come cheap since he can pocket a $3.5M buyout and shop for a new contract.
Next year's offseason does not look pretty at all. I don't even want to think about it. Let's worry about this season first.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 03:20 PM
There isn't much money coming free in 2006, at least not without opening significant holes.

Guaranteed raises to Buehrle (2M), Garcia (1M), Marte (1M), Dye (1M), Hermanson (1M), Uribe (1M), El Duque (1M), and Podsednik (1.35M) will add about $9.35 million to the 2006 payroll. Garland, Rowand, and Crede will be arbitration eligible again, so that would be another $2+ million.

Konerko (8.75M) and Shingo (2.5M) are free agents. Timo (1M) should be non-tendered. Buying out Everett's option year saves $3.5M. Buying out Politte would save .8M or picking up his option would be a .3M increase. That's an estimated $16.55 million in departing salary.

The net result is about $5 Million in free money (based on current payroll) and a team without Konerko or Shingo.

Also, Frank will likely exercise his player option for $10M in 2006, which would be a $2M increase. The Sox can buy him out for $3.5M, saving $4.5M from the 2005 payroll. That gives you ~$10M to play with, but no Konerko, Frank, or Shingo. If Frank is healthy this year, they may try to extend his contract at less than the $10M option, but he won't come cheap since he can pocket a $3.5M buyout and shop for a new contract.
Suppose for a minute budget for the 2006 team could be higher because revenue is on the rise. If the team wins the division -- which isn't out of the question -- and the attendance picks up, there will be a lot more money.

Consider some cause/effect issues here. What are the major things that could keep the team down? Failure by Garland and Crede? They'll get non-tendered and replaced by entry-level guys. Success by them will help the win column and, consequently, the payroll.

The White Sox payroll is where it is because attendance is lousy. Attendance is lousy because the team doesn't win consistently. If the team continues to fail to win the players will be turned over.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 03:22 PM
I also believe the Sox are flying under the radar for Alex Cora. Who knows if we will get him, but I do think that KW is efforting that as we speak. Only time will tell...
Is 'efforting' really a word? :?:

OEO Magglio
01-01-2005, 03:24 PM
I agree with you on both counts. The Sox will get AJ, whether us fans like it or not. That means another minor league trip for Jamie Burke, who I kinda feel bad for, but you can't let personal feelings get in the way of improving your team.

I also believe the Sox are flying under the radar for Alex Cora. Who knows if we will get him, but I do think that KW is efforting that as we speak. Only time will tell...
Doubt it on Jamie. Even if the sox sign A.J., I'm pretty sure Burke remains on the roster.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 03:27 PM
That means another minor league trip for Jamie Burke, who I kinda feel bad for, but you can't let personal feelings get in the way of improving your team.

He'll get his chances. How often does the starting catcher get hurt in baseball? I haven't actually looked, but I'd bet the average starting catcher suffers a disabled-list-level injury every other year or so. It's like playing offensive line in football. He'll hang around at least part time until he's 40 or he gets seriously hurt.

Brian26
01-01-2005, 03:28 PM
Doubt it on Jamie. Even if the sox sign A.J., I'm pretty sure Burke remains on the roster.
I don't know how you get rid of Ben Davis over Jamie Burke. The one advantage for Burke is that he can, in a pinch, play a little 3rd base. I like Burke, but I'd have to keep Davis on the roster over him.

OEO Magglio
01-01-2005, 03:36 PM
I don't know how you get rid of Ben Davis over Jamie Burke. The one advantage for Burke is that he can, in a pinch, play a little 3rd base. I like Burke, but I'd have to keep Davis on the roster over him.
Brian, I think if A.J. is signed that both Ben and Jamie remain on the roster.

BigHurt359300
01-01-2005, 03:39 PM
How could is BUrke at 3rd, is he serviceable, or is he a Konerko 3rd basemen, and cant do anything at the hot corner

I can feel it, Beltran is close to signing with us!!

voodoochile
01-01-2005, 03:40 PM
Don't they still have options on Burke left?

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 03:53 PM
well i think we will drop put of the racin for ichugi

Brian26
01-01-2005, 03:53 PM
Brian, I think if A.J. is signed that both Ben and Jamie remain on the roster.
Man, I hate it when we carry 3 catchers.

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 03:59 PM
wats the deal w/ the vazquez paul konerko trade that would be stupid why trade ur best hitter for another pitcher we already have a good startin staff and kinda lackin hitting

OEO Magglio
01-01-2005, 03:59 PM
Man, I hate it when we carry 3 catchers.
Well ozzie loves it and Burke can play multiple positions, so I think he'd keep all 3 if the sox can get Pierzynski.

OEO Magglio
01-01-2005, 03:59 PM
wats the deal w/ the vazquez paul konerko trade that would be stupid why trade ur best hitter for another pitcher we already have a good startin staff and kinda lackin hitting
It's just a B.S. rumor. Kenny isn't going to trade Pauly.

WhiteSoxAaron
01-01-2005, 04:02 PM
its all over the place those rumors are scary talk about dumb we have a good team with the addition of AJ and cora or ichugi we great but the trade would be an over load.

Mohoney
01-01-2005, 04:03 PM
Man, I hate it when we carry 3 catchers.
Normally, I do too. But Burke's ability to play 3B in a pinch might really come in handy if Crede sucks again. With Uribe and Burke both able to play 3B, we have no excuse not to pinch-hit for Crede late in games.

Plus, our 12th pitcher candidates are not what I would call encouraging. I would rather have Burke than Adkins or Grilli.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 04:04 PM
It's just a B.S. rumor. Kenny isn't going to trade Pauly.
That's right. Konerko's going to play all year, then go to the Yankers for $80M in the offseason.

johnny_mostil
01-01-2005, 04:08 PM
Plus, our 12th pitcher candidates are not what I would call encouraging. I would rather have Burke than Adkins or Grilli.
Uh, nobody's 12th pitcher candidates are encouraging, that's why there are 11 guys ahead of them!:wink: If last year is any guide, Ozzie will flip back and forth between an 11/14 split and a 12/13 split depending on circumstances. He isn't TLR, he doesn't need a bunch of one-batter pitchers.

Brian26
01-01-2005, 04:12 PM
With Uribe and Burke both able to play 3B, we have no excuse not to pinch-hit for Crede late in games.
Hopefully Crede matures enough this season to start fulfilling his potential and doesn't need to be pinch hit for in late innings.

EMel9281
01-01-2005, 04:17 PM
Normally, I do too. But Burke's ability to play 3B in a pinch might really come in handy if Crede sucks again.
I think Burke should be converted into an ultra-utility guy like Graffanino. I have always been a fan of a guy that can come in and play virtually every position. Burke is very close to being there already. He has played the OF, 1B, and 3B before. Let him try 2B as insurance, but I would be wary of SS.

But, I think Willie should learn that position as well, especially if he is not the Opening Day 2B. It would be to his benefit because he can be used at another position.