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soltrain21
11-29-2004, 02:43 PM
What are the odds Mcdowell makes it in on the first ballot? I am saying slim to none. I think he will eventually get in, however.


What are your thoughts on his first try into the Hall?

CubKilla
11-29-2004, 02:46 PM
None

Gammons Peter
11-29-2004, 02:46 PM
He'll Never get in, doesnt have the numbers

Tekijawa
11-29-2004, 02:56 PM
What are your thoughts on his first try into the Hall?
Baseball or Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

Baby Fisk
11-29-2004, 02:57 PM
Other than the hall in his own house, he won't be in any others.

Vestigio
11-29-2004, 02:58 PM
Not to hijack the topic or anything, but who are the eligible candidates for next seasons HoF?

SSN721
11-29-2004, 03:00 PM
I cant see McDowell getting into the hall of fame. Just doesnt have the numbers or overall career for someone who might not have the numbers to get in. I dont see it happening.

Dolanski
11-29-2004, 03:00 PM
Baseball or Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
HAHAHA. Neither, I like Black Jack, but Stickfigure sucks, and he had maybe three or four good years that I can recall. Of course, Black Jack is still one of the coolest nicknames...

jabrch
11-29-2004, 03:04 PM
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/candidate_info/candidate_info_2005.htm



McDowell? Might make the White Sox HOF some day if he is lucky.

soltrain21
11-29-2004, 03:06 PM
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/candidate_info/candidate_info_2005.htm



McDowell? Might make the White Sox HOF some day if he is lucky.




Yikes, Tony Phillips?!

jortafan
11-29-2004, 03:13 PM
I think the real question is whether McDowell gets so few votes (less than 5 percent of those who vote) that he drops off the ballot, meaning he'd have to wait another two decades or so before the veterans committee (or whatever is in place by then) can consider him.

NonetheLoaiza
11-29-2004, 03:15 PM
black jack had some good years, but if he makes it into the hall of fame ever, you have to let in blyleven, jack morris, etc. etc.

BainesHOF
11-29-2004, 03:16 PM
McDowell is one of my all-time favorites, but he has no chance to make the Hall.

Foulke You
11-29-2004, 03:19 PM
McDowell is one of my all-time favorites, but he has no chance to make the Hall.Basically, exactly what I was going to post. Black Jack was one of my favorites and great for the Sox in the early '90s but injuries set him back later on in his career. He is not hall of fame worthy.

Tekijawa
11-29-2004, 03:20 PM
I think the real question is whether McDowell gets so few votes (less than 5 percent of those who vote) that he drops off the ballot, meaning he'd have to wait another two decades or so before the veterans committee (or whatever is in place by then) can consider him.
Do you really think Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo would vote for him?

NonetheLoaiza
11-29-2004, 03:25 PM
Do you really think Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo would vote for him?
haha, nice one.

jabrch
11-29-2004, 03:34 PM
Do you really think Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo would vote for him?
*****...and Josh Fogg and Kip Wells and Frank Francisco...

soltrain21
11-29-2004, 03:39 PM
*****...and Josh Fogg and Kip Wells and Frank Francisco...



Francisco will probably throw the book at Mcdowell...or possibly a chair.

jshanahanjr
11-29-2004, 03:51 PM
I was thinking about Jack's career the other day and felt he would have 250+ career wins if he stayed healthy. Jack was a stud!

SouthSide_HitMen
11-29-2004, 04:02 PM
Not to hijack the topic or anything, but who are the eligible candidates for next seasons HoF?
I see Wade Boggs in and Sandberg possibly getting in on this ballot.

"ET" Willie McGee will get some consideration, should make next years ballot.

Chili Davis, Mark Langston, Jack McDowell, Jeff Montgomery were good players but not worthy of HOF consideration and really do not deserve a vote.

Jim Abbott, Tom Candiotti, Terry Steinbach, Tony Phillips and Otis Nixon are complete jokes to be on the ballot.

Baby Fisk
11-29-2004, 04:11 PM
It blows my mind that Tommy John (who pitched for the Sox from 1965-71) pitched all the way to 1989 (age 46). :o: That's 26 seasons in total, he gets a medical procedure named after him and still can't get into the HOF. Played for the Dodgers and Yankees in the late 70s/early 80s, but always for the team that lost in the post-season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he never won a WS.

Brian26
11-29-2004, 04:19 PM
What are the odds Mcdowell makes it in on the first ballot? I am saying slim to none. I think he will eventually get in, however.


What are your thoughts on his first try into the Hall?

What kind of medication are you taking this week?

Brian26
11-29-2004, 04:19 PM
Not to hijack the topic or anything, but who are the eligible candidates for next seasons HoF?

Boggs and Strawberry.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2004, 04:20 PM
It blows my mind that Tommy John (who pitched for the Sox from 1965-71) pitched all the way to 1989 (age 46). :o: That's 26 seasons in total, he gets a medical procedure named after him and still can't get into the HOF. Played for the Dodgers and Yankees in the late 70s/early 80s, but always for the team that lost in the post-season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he never won a WS.I'm surprised that the Goose hasn't made it. He's one of the guys who practically defined the closer role.

Brian26
11-29-2004, 04:22 PM
I'm surprised that the Goose hasn't made it. He's one of the guys who practically defined the closer role.

Besides Rollie Fingers, Sparky Lyle, Bruce Sutter, Kent Tekulve, Dan Quisenberry, and Tug McGraw :D:

Baby Fisk
11-29-2004, 04:34 PM
I'm surprised that the Goose hasn't made it. He's one of the guys who practically defined the closer role.Hmmm... Goose Gossage, Tommy John, Dick Allen, Bill Melton, Wilbur Wood... could there be a curse of the baby blue Sox uniforms?

soltrain21
11-29-2004, 05:12 PM
What kind of medication are you taking this week?



Sorry, I guess my opinion of Black Jack is skewed because he was my favorite growing up

TDog
11-29-2004, 07:09 PM
What are the odds Mcdowell makes it in on the first ballot? I am saying slim to none. I think he will eventually get in, however.


What are your thoughts on his first try into the Hall?
Jack McDowell will never be elected into the Baseball Hall of Fame. I can't think of any hall of fame that enshrine Jack McDowell.

Ol Aches & Pains
11-29-2004, 07:52 PM
What are the odds Mcdowell makes it in on the first ballot? I am saying slim to none. I think he will eventually get in, however.


What are your thoughts on his first try into the Hall?
Billy Pierce has been waiting for 40 years, and McDowell was no Billy Pierce. The only way he gets in is with a paid admission.

Lip Man 1
11-29-2004, 08:34 PM
Black Jack was an outstanding pitcher but he's not a Hall Of Famer. From 1990 - 1994 he won more games then anybody in MLB.

As far as who is on the ballot? This is on the Tribune web site:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-041129baseballhallballots,1,256778.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

DumpJerry
11-29-2004, 11:22 PM
As much as many of us would like to see it happen, it won't. Jack does not have year after year after year of dominance, just a handful of years. How many fans outside the White Sox orbit can remember the guy? That is a test.

Parrothead
11-29-2004, 11:29 PM
No chance he gets in.

SOXSINCE'70
11-30-2004, 08:15 AM
White Sox HOF-yes.:D: :D:


Baseball HOF-no.Not enough stats to back it up.:(:

Procol Harum
11-30-2004, 10:26 AM
White Sox HOF-yes.:D: :D:


Baseball HOF-no.Not enough stats to back it up.:(:
True 'dat--if he would have performed at his 90-94 level maybe another 5-6 years he might have been a candidate for Cooperstown.

Brian26
11-30-2004, 12:02 PM
Sorry, I guess my opinion of Black Jack is skewed because he was my favorite growing up

I used to like Chet Lemon, but that doesn't make him HOF material :D:

daveeym
11-30-2004, 01:04 PM
Wow didn't realize donny baseball was having that much trouble getting in. Kinda suprising. Willie McGee, brings back good memories. Old enough to really enjoy baseball, ozzie smith, willie mcgee, vince coleman, tommy herr, pedro guerrero, those were some fun teams the cardinals had back then.

Dolanski
11-30-2004, 03:15 PM
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1021

ESPN has a poll to vote for people who belong in the Hall that are on the ballot. At the time I post this, 3.9% (around 600 votes) voted for Black Jack...lol

Baby Fisk
11-30-2004, 03:29 PM
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1021

ESPN has a poll to vote for people who belong in the Hall that are on the ballot. At the time I post this, 3.9% (around 600 votes) voted for Black Jack...lolSome more votes have vaulted Black Jack to the 4% mark. He's on his way! And he is seriously kicking Mark Langston's ass! :cool:

quade36
11-30-2004, 03:33 PM
common people, though he was a good pitcher for 4 or 5 years, he definitely doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. Maybe one day he'll be in the music hall of fame :D: :dtroll:

Dolanski
11-30-2004, 04:22 PM
Some more votes have vaulted Black Jack to the 4% mark. He's on his way! And he is seriously kicking Mark Langston's ass! :cool:

Hmm, you are giving me ideas. Perhaps we should put this out to the board as another thread and see if we can get him ridiculously high in their poll... childish and stupid, but funny

Baby Fisk
11-30-2004, 04:33 PM
Hmm, you are giving me ideas. Perhaps we should put this out to the board as another thread and see if we can get him ridiculously high in their poll... childish and stupid, but funnyGo for it! I created a thread to encourage people to vote for Frank Thomas as a HOFer on an ESPN poll in the spring. :cool:

Vote to put Frank Thomas in the HOF (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34038&highlight=frank+thomas+poll)

doublem23
11-30-2004, 05:02 PM
McDowell? Might make the White Sox HOF some day if he is lucky.
:reinsy
Not as long as I'm running the ship!

SouthSide_HitMen
11-30-2004, 09:53 PM
BP Prospectus take on the two former White Sox on the ballot for the first time in 2005:

Jack McDowell (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mcdowja01.shtml): One of the better starting pitchers in the American League from 1991 to 1993. He even got a Cy Young Award out of the deal, although Kevin Appier (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/appieke01.shtml) was a stronger candidate that year ('93). He's not a Hall of Famer.
Tony Phillips (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/phillto02.shtml): I've never smoked crack, but something tells me it's got to be pretty hard to play at the major league level after having done so. If there were a Hall of Fame for players who performed well in spite of self-inflicted handicaps, Phillips would be in it. If there were a Hall of Fame for guys who excelled while playing a lot of different positions in the course of the same seasons, he'd be in that one, too. He'd definitely also make the bizarre-career-layout Hall of Fame. Consider that this is a 2,000-hit, 18-season career in which he was not really given a set position until he was 37 years old (left field, by the White Sox), and that only lasted one year.

kittle42
12-02-2004, 04:18 PM
I think he will eventually get in, however.
:?: :?: :?:

Whitesox029
12-28-2004, 06:47 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041228&content_id=926245&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
Opinions?

kittle42
12-28-2004, 06:51 PM
If I wasn't so lazy, I'd go dig up the thread where this was discussed to death about a month ago and link to it.

Whitesox029
12-28-2004, 06:55 PM
If I wasn't so lazy, I'd go dig up the thread where this was discussed to death about a month ago and link to it. Hey I can't help it if I don't hang around here all the time.

ja1022
12-28-2004, 06:58 PM
If I wasn't so lazy, I'd go dig up the thread where this was discussed to death about a month ago and link to it.
What he said....and he and Robin Ventura still aren't remotely worthy of the Hall of Fame.

Johnny Mostil
12-28-2004, 07:11 PM
Even McDowell has said this is "not at all realistic." See http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jm-steroids1203&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Erik The Red
12-28-2004, 07:16 PM
If it weren't for the injuries, he could have eventually been HOF material. His stuff was nasty. It killed me to see him leave.

ja1022
12-28-2004, 07:22 PM
If it weren't for the injuries, he could have eventually been HOF material. His stuff was nasty. It killed me to see him leave.
See Burns, Britt (1978-1985)

ewokpelts
12-29-2004, 12:54 AM
What are the odds Mcdowell makes it in on the first ballot? I am saying slim to none. I think he will eventually get in, however.


What are your thoughts on his first try into the Hall?jack himself doubts his entry...
Gene

owensmouth
12-29-2004, 01:05 AM
Besides Rollie Fingers, Sparky Lyle, Bruce Sutter, Kent Tekulve, Dan Quisenberry, and Tug McGraw :D:
And a guy named Wilhelm

petekat
12-30-2004, 01:10 PM
Oddly, the WHite Sox have had a run of fortune, dumping pitchers during their prime, and not getting saddled with multi year contracts on the back end of careers: Black Jack, Alex, Wilson, Burns, Dotson (Boy did Tampa Bay get burned on Alvarez, $26 million for 2 wins!!!!) Maddening to think that the ownership's instincts to be cheap has paid off- theory some of us have tossed around is that Jerry must have access to a time machine



See Burns, Britt (1978-1985)

Baby Fisk
12-30-2004, 01:16 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041228&content_id=926245&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
Opinions?I suspect that in this period of slow baseball news, every other team with a former player on the ballot has a similar story on their website.

Like this one. (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041223&content_id=925535&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp)

IronFisk
12-30-2004, 01:18 PM
This has to be one of the most ridiculous topics I've ever heard of. Sure, he had a few good years, but even considering him HOF material....NIEN!!!

I lost total respect for the clod after his train wreck performances in the 93 ALCS. That alone should even eliminate him from White Sox HOF consideration.

Knucksie
12-30-2004, 03:32 PM
IF WE could elect a SOX pitcher to the HOF, I would submit Wilbur Wood for consideration before McDowell (not to mention other possibilities). It would be hard to argue of any SOX pitcher having a better five year run than Wilbur (at least since WWII). Consider the mileage they got out of him. He was the pitching staff. He also had many more Shutouts than McDowell and it is amazing to me that he didn't walk more batters or give up more home runs. Too bad Wilbur took that liner off the shin. :(:

Black Jack's five year run from 90-94:

1990 14-9, 3.82 ERA, 33 starts, 205 IP, 4 CG
1991 17-10, 3.41 ERA, 35 starts, 253 IP, 15 CG
1992 20-10, 3.18 ERA, 34 starts, 260 IP, 13 CG
1993 22-10, 3.37 ERA, 34 starts, 256 IP, 10 CG
1994 10-9, 3.73 ERA, 25 starts, 181 IP, 6 CG

Wibur Wood's five year run from 1971-1975:

1971 22-13, 1.91 ERA, 42 starts, 334 IP, 22 CG
1972 24-17, 2.51 ERA, 49 starts, 376 IP, 20 CG
1973 24-20, 3.46 ERA, 48 starts, 359 IP, 21 CG
1974 20-19, 3.60 ERA, 42 starts, 320 IP, 22 CG
1975 16-20, 4.11 ERA, 43 starts, 291 IP, 14 CG
In the fun to imagine category, what if the current SOX had Wilbur Wood on the staff?

Baby Fisk
12-30-2004, 03:39 PM
In the fun to imagine category, what if the current SOX had Wilbur Wood on the staff?If that were the case, we wouldn't even need a 5th starter. Heck, even a 4th might be borderline. Just trot out ol' Wilbur every other start.

BTW, welcome aboard! :welcome:

Knucksie
12-30-2004, 04:38 PM
Thanks for the welcome, Baby Fisk.


If we had a Wilbur Wood on today's staff, we could dump the 5th starter (move Garland or Contreras to the pen) and go with a 10 man staff instead of KW's "1 through 11 or 12" and that would free up roster spot for some bench players.

Thing that worries me most about '05 team isn't the infield with Harris, Uribe and Crede with Valdez on the bench, but an infield w/o Crede. As bad as Crede's bat has been, I shutter to think of the line up without him. Not so sure I can see Valdez or Harris playing every day. Heck, I'm not so sure I'm comfortable with Uribe playing every day. I see no help down on the farm that is ready to play. Even a short stint that would just require Crede to be on the 15 day DL would be bad.

To me, Crede is the key to this team being successful. He D is fine and if he can just hit consistently in the .260 range, cut down on the strike outs and hit his 20+ HR, I think they will be fine. If he can pull together a year that is more like we've been told he is capable of (I guess we've seen some flashes) where he hits .285 - .290 with closer to 30 HR, the SOX will have a big year.

ja1022
12-30-2004, 04:42 PM
IF WE could elect a SOX pitcher to the HOF, I would submit Wilbur Wood for consideration before McDowell (not to mention other possibilities). It would be hard to argue of any SOX pitcher having a better five year run than Wilbur (at least since WWII). Consider the mileage they got out of him. He was the pitching staff. He also had many more Shutouts than McDowell and it is amazing to me that he didn't walk more batters or give up more home runs. Too bad Wilbur took that liner off the shin. :(:

Black Jack's five year run from 90-94:

1990 14-9, 3.82 ERA, 33 starts, 205 IP, 4 CG
1991 17-10, 3.41 ERA, 35 starts, 253 IP, 15 CG
1992 20-10, 3.18 ERA, 34 starts, 260 IP, 13 CG
1993 22-10, 3.37 ERA, 34 starts, 256 IP, 10 CG
1994 10-9, 3.73 ERA, 25 starts, 181 IP, 6 CG

Wibur Wood's five year run from 1971-1975:

1971 22-13, 1.91 ERA, 42 starts, 334 IP, 22 CG
1972 24-17, 2.51 ERA, 49 starts, 376 IP, 20 CG
1973 24-20, 3.46 ERA, 48 starts, 359 IP, 21 CG
1974 20-19, 3.60 ERA, 42 starts, 320 IP, 22 CG
1975 16-20, 4.11 ERA, 43 starts, 291 IP, 14 CG
In the fun to imagine category, what if the current SOX had Wilbur Wood on the staff?
In this era, that's a damn good three year run there by BlackJack. I loved the attitude he took to the mound with him.

I remember being at Comiskey when Wilbur started both ends of a doubleheader. The thing about Wilbur was he had that "normal guy" look to him. He and Ed Herrmann looked like they could put away a few beers between them and Herrmann used that huge mitt when he caught Wood.

doublem23
12-30-2004, 05:40 PM
IF WE could elect a SOX pitcher to the HOF, I would submit Wilbur Wood for consideration before McDowell (not to mention other possibilities). It would be hard to argue of any SOX pitcher having a better five year run than Wilbur (at least since WWII). Consider the mileage they got out of him. He was the pitching staff. He also had many more Shutouts than McDowell and it is amazing to me that he didn't walk more batters or give up more home runs. Too bad Wilbur took that liner off the shin. :(:

Black Jack's five year run from 90-94:

1990 14-9, 3.82 ERA, 33 starts, 205 IP, 4 CG
1991 17-10, 3.41 ERA, 35 starts, 253 IP, 15 CG
1992 20-10, 3.18 ERA, 34 starts, 260 IP, 13 CG
1993 22-10, 3.37 ERA, 34 starts, 256 IP, 10 CG
1994 10-9, 3.73 ERA, 25 starts, 181 IP, 6 CG

Wibur Wood's five year run from 1971-1975:

1971 22-13, 1.91 ERA, 42 starts, 334 IP, 22 CG
1972 24-17, 2.51 ERA, 49 starts, 376 IP, 20 CG
1973 24-20, 3.46 ERA, 48 starts, 359 IP, 21 CG
1974 20-19, 3.60 ERA, 42 starts, 320 IP, 22 CG
1975 16-20, 4.11 ERA, 43 starts, 291 IP, 14 CG
In the fun to imagine category, what if the current SOX had Wilbur Wood on the staff?
This is an unfair comparison. The eras in which McDowell and Wood pitched were very different.

Knucksie
12-30-2004, 08:11 PM
This is an unfair comparison. The eras in which McDowell and Wood pitched were very different.
I agree to a degree. It is comparing apples to oranges. I loved Black Jack in a SOX uniform. However, my point is that his run as a SOX was very short lived and the thing that stands out about Wilbur are his outstanding ERA and his innings pitched. Over 1,300 innings in five years. Five quality years. Are you kidding me? I realize WIlbur was a knuckleballer and because of that, he had less wear and tear on his arm. But, his win total, era, complete games even his shutouts were much better than McDowell's. Even in Wood's ERA, those stats are staggering to me.

On a side note about McDowell, has there ever been a pitcher in a SOX uniform that was better at holding/picking off runners? Had to love Black Jack picking off runners from 3rd base with the fake move to first. He was ferocious on the mound. Certainly night and day different from Wilbur.