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Whitesox029
12-26-2004, 10:38 PM
I was just wondering about the pervading feeling here that Shingo is not going to cut it as a closer. Where are you getting this from? He had a great ERA and there was that no-baserunner streak that reached beyond 27 hitters (not much easier to do than a perfect game in my book). If I'm Ozzie Guillen, Shingo's got his name as carved in stone as my closer.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 10:47 PM
Who knows? :dunno: Shingo is the first good closer we've had since Foulke.

santo=dorf
12-26-2004, 10:49 PM
It's just another case of some paranoid Sox fans feeling that if a player is any good, it's impossible for him to be on the Sox. Remember, Buehrle isn't an ace. Rowand is terrible in the outfield, and it is impossible for Joe Crede to improve next year. Carlos Lee is horrible at the plate and terrible defensively, wait he got traded. Carlos Lee is the greatest LF in Sox history and we shouldn't have traded him. :rolleyes:

BRDSR
12-26-2004, 10:55 PM
I was just wondering about the pervading feeling here that Shingo is not going to cut it as a closer. Where are you getting this from? He had a great ERA and there was that no-baserunner streak that reached beyond 27 hitters (not much easier to do than a perfect game in my book). If I'm Ozzie Guillen, Shingo's got his name as carved in stone as my closer.
Despite the sarcasm you've already gotten to this post, I'll give you the real reason. The real reason is that Shingo has now been around the league one or two times. Teams have "the book" on him now. Whether that means anything is anybody's guess. However, Shingo is the type of pitcher that is very difficult to hit the first time you see him(he may have invented that sidearm frisbee pitch, I've never seen anything quite like it) but might be easier to hit after you've seen him a couple of times. Now, for some pitchers this isn't a factor. Randy Johnson has been pitching in the bigs for 15 years and nobody's caught on to his stuff yet. But the truth is that we don't know if this will be a factor or not, so some people choose to be pessimistic. I just choose to observe that it's a possibility that he won't be as dominating next season for the reasons mentioned above. Just have to wait and see.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 11:02 PM
It's just another case of some paranoid Sox fans feeling that if a player is any good, it's impossible for him to be on the Sox. Remember, Buehrle isn't an ace. Rowand is terrible in the outfield, and it is impossible for Joe Crede to improve next year. Carlos Lee is horrible at the plate and terrible defensively, wait he got traded. Carlos Lee is the greatest LF in Sox history and we shouldn't have traded him. :rolleyes:
I don't get the saracasm when it's a completely valid question that was brought up by people doing the White Sox broadcasts LONG before I ever said anything about it.

The fact is, Shingo's been through the AL twice now, and people have seen his stuff. When he started struggling in August, Rooney and Farmer (and even Wills on the post game show) pointed out quite candidly that the scouting reports were floating around now and they were personally watching hitters laying off the frisbee and waiting & sitting on the Shingo heater.

Whitesox029
12-26-2004, 11:03 PM
Despite the sarcasm you've already gotten to this post, I'll give you the real reason. The real reason is that Shingo has now been around the league one or two times. Teams have "the book" on him now. Whether that means anything is anybody's guess. However, Shingo is the type of pitcher that is very difficult to hit the first time you see him(he may have invented that sidearm frisbee pitch, I've never seen anything quite like it) but might be easier to hit after you've seen him a couple of times. Now, for some pitchers this isn't a factor. Randy Johnson has been pitching in the bigs for 15 years and nobody's caught on to his stuff yet. But the truth is that we don't know if this will be a factor or not, so some people choose to be pessimistic. I just choose to observe that it's a possibility that he won't be as dominating next season for the reasons mentioned above. Just have to wait and see. Well we've gotta give him the chance to prove himself don't we? Mariano Rivera has been around the league more than one or two times and no one quite seems to have "the book" on him yet (with the possible exception of Boston). Even so, we assumed Foulke's changeup was no good when he finished off 2002 badly didn't we? And then we traded him for a bum who shall remain nameless in this thread, and he went on to save many games in 2003 and 2004, getting a ring this year. I say stick with Shingo.

idseer
12-26-2004, 11:08 PM
The fact is, Shingo's been through the AL twice now, and people have seen his stuff. When he started struggling in August, Rooney and Farmer (and even Wills on the post game show) pointed out quite candidly that the scouting reports were floating around now and they were personally watching hitters laying off the frisbee and waiting & sitting on the Shingo heater.
just think how stupid all those japanese teams were that couldn't figure out to wait for his heater in what ... 13 years?
stupid japanese! :rolleyes:

Whitesox029
12-26-2004, 11:10 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15865&highlight=Keith+Foulke+Billy+Koch
Cite the first post in this thread from December 3, 2002, shortly after the Foulke trade. The poster says the same thing about Foulke that some of you guys are saying about Shingo.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 11:15 PM
just think how stupid all those japanese teams were that couldn't figure out to wait for his heater in what ... 13 years?
stupid japanese! :rolleyes:
Completely different style of game over there.

idseer
12-26-2004, 11:19 PM
Completely different style of game over there.
brian .... it's a pitcher vs a hitter the same as it is here.
see, the pitcher tries to throw the ball in such a way as to not be hit by the hitter, same as it is here.
the hitter tries to figure out pitchers so they can hit them better, same as it is here.
if shingo is as easy to figure out as you seem to suggest then i do believe japanese hitters would have hit the crap out of him a long time ago. wouldn't you agree with this?

Nick@Nite
12-26-2004, 11:20 PM
The fact is, Shingo's been through the AL twice now, and people have seen his stuff. When he started struggling in August, Rooney and Farmer (and even Wills on the post game show) pointed out quite candidly that the scouting reports were floating around now and they were personally watching hitters laying off the frisbee and waiting & sitting on the Shingo heater.Yup... Shingo was in control when he was able to get his not-so-fast fastball in for strike one early in the count. Before hitters knew it, they were down in the count, swatting at his big loopy curve balls.

Hitters made the adjustment of not working the count, jumping on the first ball fastball strike around August.

Now Shingo needs to adjust to what the hitters started adjusting to, though it's not as if he's lobbing meatballs. He did finish with a strong September.

Shingotime!!
12-26-2004, 11:24 PM
For sox fans who want to complain. I guess u can say Shingo is a year older :?:

Whitesox029
12-26-2004, 11:29 PM
For sox fans who want to complain. I guess u can say Shingo is a year older :?: I saw you browsing this thread and I figured you'd have something to say. I also knew you'd agree with me.
:cool:

Shingotime!!
12-26-2004, 11:32 PM
lol, i like Shingo, what can i say?

JackParkman
12-27-2004, 12:19 AM
Completely different style of game over there.
Yep, that's why Japanese stars like Ichiro and Matsui have found it so difficult to adjust to MLB. :rolleyes:

Seriously, while I have no idea how Shingo will fare in '05, I think many of the doubts stem from fans being brainwished to believe that successful closers must throw in at least the mid 90s, look mean and smell bad. Many Sox fans thought Foulke wouldn't be a great closer because he tops out at about 91 mph and his best pitch is a change-up.

Corlose 15
12-27-2004, 12:19 AM
Speaking of Shingo, did anyone else see the Sox commercial last year where it has Paulie K in the dugout talking to the camara about chemistry? He's in the dugout talking about how with good chemistry on the team you almost reach a level of ESP with your teamates. Then Shingo comes in and mutters something in Japanese and Paulie says "Its over there" and Shingo picks up his glove and runs off.


It was hilarious.:D:

Brian26
12-27-2004, 12:39 AM
Yep, that's why Japanese stars like Ichiro and Matsui have found it so difficult to adjust to MLB. :rolleyes:
And does that explain why bums like Tuffy Rhodes, Shane Mack and Warren Crommartie go over to Japan and own their world?

It should be noted that very often mediocre American players go over there and succeed, while it takes the very best players from Japan to come over here and do well. Matsui and Ichiro were like Bonds and Pujols in Japan.

Brian26
12-27-2004, 12:41 AM
brian .... it's a pitcher vs a hitter the same as it is here.
see, the pitcher tries to throw the ball in such a way as to not be hit by the hitter, same as it is here.
the hitter tries to figure out pitchers so they can hit them better, same as it is here.
if shingo is as easy to figure out as you seem to suggest then i do believe japanese hitters would have hit the crap out of him a long time ago. wouldn't you agree with this?
The fundamental approach to hitting in Japan is quite different than American baseball. The approach in regards to taking pitches and making contact is completely different. Yes, it is the same game, but it is played quite differently.

jabrch
12-27-2004, 12:44 AM
For sox fans who want to complain. I guess u can say Shingo is a year older :?:

And he is aging rapidly.

StockdaleForVeep
12-27-2004, 01:03 AM
Kaz sasaki played multiple seasons and was a terrific closer for seattle and his best season was TWO YEARS after his debut, and he had a unique delivery as well...his worst season was his last when he had a bunch of injuries

Nomo has the most unorthodox style and has been in baseball how long? He is still a great pitcher.

I think the only japanese pitcher who had an extended stay and sucked beyond belief was Steinbrenners fave barrel ass Hideki Irabu.....i seriously believe he makes garland look good.

HomeFish
12-27-2004, 02:00 AM
Kaz sasaki played multiple seasons and was a terrific closer for seattle and his best season was TWO YEARS after his debut, and he had a unique delivery as well...his worst season was his last when he had a bunch of injuries

Nomo has the most unorthodox style and has been in baseball how long? He is still a great pitcher.


If I'm not mistaken, both Nomo and Sasaki have high speed on their pitches, whereas Shingo throws exclusively junk.

Jabroni
12-27-2004, 02:04 AM
If I'm not mistaken, both Nomo and Sasaki have high speed on their pitches, whereas Shingo throws exclusively junk.I thought Shingo's fastball can get up to 91. :?: That's not that bad. Especially when he follows it up with a 65 MPH changeup.

MisterB
12-27-2004, 03:37 AM
If I'm not mistaken, both Nomo and Sasaki have high speed on their pitches, whereas Shingo throws exclusively junk. According to ESPN.com, Sasaki's fastball is low 90's, and Nomo's tops out around 90.

A lot of people are just convinced that you cannot be an effective closer unless you throw 95+.

:keith
"They've been waiting for batters to 'figure out' my changeup for 7 years."

StockdaleForVeep
12-27-2004, 04:07 AM
If I'm not mistaken, both Nomo and Sasaki have high speed on their pitches, whereas Shingo throws exclusively junk.
Whats the difference other than mph from throwin a80mph fast ball and a 50 mph changeup when you have guys like billy wagner who can go to 100 and drop to 80, its the same speed diferential. Its not like video game where u can see what speed its comin in and go "oh its 52 mph now, i can clock that"

OEO Magglio
12-27-2004, 04:17 AM
Shingo is going to be absolutely fine. Like I posted in another thread he's never thrown as many innings as he did last year and thus his control started to go. Shingo knows how to pitch, he's great at changing speeds, as long as he gets his control back(which he will) shingo's going to be absolutely fine.

michned
12-27-2004, 08:17 AM
Shingo is going to be absolutely fine. Like I posted in another thread he's never thrown as many innings as he did last year and thus his control started to go. Shingo knows how to pitch, he's great at changing speeds, as long as he gets his control back(which he will) shingo's going to be absolutely fine.
Totally agree. This guy is a veteran. He knows how to pitch. A hitter may adjust to him but he's smart enough to come back with a fresh approach to that hitter. He is a winner. I would take 25 guys like him on my team any day.

Ed

johnny_mostil
12-27-2004, 11:20 AM
The fact is, Shingo's been through the AL twice now, and people have seen his stuff. When he started struggling in August, Rooney and Farmer (and even Wills on the post game show) pointed out quite candidly that the scouting reports were floating around now and they were personally watching hitters laying off the frisbee and waiting & sitting on the Shingo heater.Objection, your Honors, counsel is assuming facts not in evidence.

Shingo cumulative ERA in the first three games in which he faced an opposing team: 2.00
Shingo ERA in games 4-6 against an opposing team: 2.03
Shingo ERA in games 7+ against an opposing team: 4.50... BUT all of those runs scored on a single Cleveland home run.
Let's look at every time Shingo either allowed a run or allowed more than two baserunners last season:


April 9 vs NYY (2 runs). Bubba Crosby took him deep.
April 20 vs NYY (1 run). No more apperances.
May 14 vs Min (0 runs, but 3 runners in 1 2/3 IP)
Jun 30 vs Min (1 run mopping up)
Jul 4 vs Cubs (1 run, loss). No more appearances.
Jul 28 vs Min (3 runners, unearned run in 2 innings). The next time he faced the Twins he shut them down.
Aug 7 vs Cle (3 runs, loss, blown save). The next three times he faced the Indians he shut them down.
Aug 13 vs Bos (2 runs, save)
Aug 15 vs Bos (2 runs, save). The next time he faced the Red Sox he shut them down.
Aug 30 vs Phi (2 runs, save)
Sep 17 vs Det (1 run, loss). The next time he faced the Tigers he shut them down.
SO... except for one three-run homer to Cleveland, there is no evidence that continued exposure to Shingo makes him more vulnerable. Teams that "solve" him do not continue to "solve" him. The Yankees, Boston, and Philadelphia hit him. The Twins manage to get some baserunners... but don't score very often.

There is no evidence that anybody really figured him out from multiple exposures.

And don't compare him to Mariano Rivera. Rivera's save total is padded by cheap 2-out third strike calls on pitches way out of the zone on a regular basis.

ode to veeck
12-27-2004, 11:27 AM
Speaking of Shingo, did anyone else see the Sox commercial last year where it has Paulie K in the dugout ...My personal favorite Sox commercial of the last several years

Nick@Nite
12-27-2004, 01:08 PM
I have to laugh. Baseball is a game of adjustments. Pitchers having success doesn't mean hitters will not adjust (and vice versa). Baseball has a grapevine just like any other occupation. Generally, hitters facing a pitcher for the first time will want to see as much of his repertoire during their AB as possible, and that's when Shingo was having success. Hitters started figuring him out last August... instead of immediately being down 0-1 or having a 1-1 count, they started jumping on the 88mph-fastball for strike one, knowing that was their best pitch to hit.

Shingo adjusted, and had a pretty good September. Because of that, I expect him to have another good run in 2005.

Whitesox029
12-27-2004, 01:09 PM
Speaking of Shingo, did anyone else see the Sox commercial last year where it has Paulie K in the dugout talking to the camara about chemistry? He's in the dugout talking about how with good chemistry on the team you almost reach a level of ESP with your teamates. Then Shingo comes in and mutters something in Japanese and Paulie says "Its over there" and Shingo picks up his glove and runs off.


It was hilarious.:D: BEST. COMMERCIAL. EVER.

maurice
12-27-2004, 02:25 PM
I hope Takatsu keeps it up, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned.

In support of the "league might catch up to him" theory, his Japanese league stats declined significantly before he left to play for the Sox. Hopefully, the same thing won't happen here, but it's not like he's got a 500+ inning track record in MLB. We'll see.

MeanFish
12-27-2004, 02:33 PM
All I'm going to say is that we shouldn't give the Keith Foulke treatment to a guy who has proven to be a great clubhouse asset. We need to realize that there are only about a handful of true shut-down closers in this game, and that our guy is very likely going to give up runs every now and then. I don't understand, because he wasn't completely unhittable down the stretch he's not good enough? It's not as if he's Billy Koch, the straight-as-an-arrow fastball artist who couldn't locate a breaking ball to save his life. Shingo's a pitcher. He has good location when he's right and some very good movement on his pitches. Sort of like an ultra-tricky Greg Maddux, but designated to the ninth inning.

We can't expect him to carry a sub-1.00 era forever. It's far more likely that he'll revert to about a 3.00 ERA like the one he had in Japan. He isn't bad just because he plays for us. He's no Mariano Rivera, but does he really have to be?

Whitesox029
12-27-2004, 02:38 PM
All I'm going to say is that we shouldn't give the Keith Foulke treatment to a guy who has proven to be a great clubhouse asset. We need to realize that there are only about a handful of true shut-down closers in this game, and that our guy is very likely going to give up runs every now and then. I don't understand, because he wasn't completely unhittable down the stretch he's not good enough? It's not as if he's Billy Koch, the straight-as-an-arrow fastball artist who couldn't locate a breaking ball to save his life. Shingo's a pitcher. He has good location when he's right and some very good movement on his pitches. Sort of like an ultra-tricky Greg Maddux, but designated to the ninth inning.

We can't expect him to carry a sub-1.00 era forever. It's far more likely that he'll revert to about a 3.00 ERA like the one he had in Japan. He isn't bad just because he plays for us. He's no Mariano Rivera, but does he really have to be? Well said.

Mohoney
12-27-2004, 05:34 PM
and it is impossible for Joe Crede to improve next year.
Actually, I'm starting to feel this shouldn't be in teal. We have NO contingency plan in place if this guy goes out there and continues to suck.

We definitely need either a guy that can play both 2B and SS, or failing that, a backup 3B.

If Crede sucks in Spring Training, we seriously need to just cut our losses, officially label him a bust, and go with a stopgap while we wait for Fields. We WILL NOT WIN our division if Crede puts up another OBP under .300 at 3B every day, defense or no defense.

StockdaleForVeep
12-27-2004, 09:07 PM
Actually, I'm starting to feel this shouldn't be in teal. We have NO contingency plan in place if this guy goes out there and continues to suck.

We definitely need either a guy that can play both 2B and SS, or failing that, a backup 3B.

If Crede sucks in Spring Training, we seriously need to just cut our losses, officially label him a bust, and go with a stopgap while we wait for Fields. We WILL NOT WIN our division if Crede puts up another OBP under .300 at 3B every day, defense or no defense.Herbert Perry or Gary Gaetti retired yet?

johnny_mostil
12-27-2004, 10:17 PM
Herbert Perry or Gary Gaetti retired yet?
I love the spring training thing. Folks, spring training performances don't predict anything. :angry: We won't know if Crede is going to snap out of it until May at least. I get so tired of this "sky is falling" attitude. The sky is falling when I tell you it is.

StockdaleForVeep
12-27-2004, 10:30 PM
I love the spring training thing. Folks, spring training performances don't predict anything. :angry: We won't know if Crede is going to snap out of it until May at least. I get so tired of this "sky is falling" attitude. The sky is falling when I tell you it is.agreed hence why my post was in teal

I mean baltimore is always kickin arse in pre season and where has it gotten them?

batmanZoSo
12-27-2004, 10:38 PM
Despite the sarcasm you've already gotten to this post, I'll give you the real reason. The real reason is that Shingo has now been around the league one or two times. Teams have "the book" on him now. Whether that means anything is anybody's guess. However, Shingo is the type of pitcher that is very difficult to hit the first time you see him(he may have invented that sidearm frisbee pitch, I've never seen anything quite like it) but might be easier to hit after you've seen him a couple of times. Now, for some pitchers this isn't a factor. Randy Johnson has been pitching in the bigs for 15 years and nobody's caught on to his stuff yet. But the truth is that we don't know if this will be a factor or not, so some people choose to be pessimistic. I just choose to observe that it's a possibility that he won't be as dominating next season for the reasons mentioned above. Just have to wait and see.
Nobody's gonna catch on to a 93 mph slider from a 6'10" lefty. But with Shingo, there are still some hitters and maybe even a team or two he hasn't faced yet. And I think he has legit stuff. His fastball is 87 then he goes down to 50 with that junk pitch and he's got control. Seeing him pitch in person really solidified my stance on him.

StockdaleForVeep
12-28-2004, 02:32 AM
Nobody's gonna catch on to a 93 mph slider from a 6'10" lefty. But with Shingo, there are still some hitters and maybe even a team or two he hasn't faced yet. And I think he has legit stuff. His fastball is 87 then he goes down to 50 with that junk pitch and he's got control. Seeing him pitch in person really solidified my stance on him.

and ofcorpse every game i went to last season i didnt see shingo pitch once.....and when he coulda came in, hitless wonders of valentin and borch would just HAVE to get a hit\rbi

beck72
12-28-2004, 06:03 AM
Shingo will be fine, esp. with the improved set up men around him. He was lights out when he only had to work 1 inning. When Shingo threw more pitches, his control faded. Then hitters were able to jump on his FB when they were ahead in the count.

If the 'pen can hand Shingo a lead in the 9th inning, he'll have one of the best save percentages in the league.