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eastchicagosoxfan
12-26-2004, 06:00 PM
I'm intrigued at the possibility of using El Duque as a closer. Obviously he has to want the role, but I still find it interesting, to say the least. Eck used a funky delivery, and great control to become the best in the business. Why not El Duque?

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 06:03 PM
No offense but I have to do it...

:threadsucks

Where have you been for the "dreaded 5th starter" of the past 4 seasons? :?:

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 06:04 PM
I'm intrigued at the possibility of using El Duque as a closer. Obviously he has to want the role, but I still find it interesting, to say the least. Eck used a funky delivery, and great control to become the best in the business. Why not El Duque?
Because Takatsu was at 95% last year?

Seriously, because for a pitcher with Duque's arm problems, the carefully managed workload and training program tied to starting will be more successful than relief work, which is, by nature, less predictable.

NSSoxFan2
12-26-2004, 06:07 PM
If I had to put money on any injured pitcher coming back to a team and being the best physical condition, I would have to say that team would be White Sox, with their great trainers.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-26-2004, 06:08 PM
No offense but I have to do it...

:threadsucks

Where have you been for the "dreaded 5th starter" of the past 4 seasons? :?:
A good closer makes your top four really good. You're not looking for number 5 to stop losing streaks, but rather continue winning streaks. We've been looking for number 5 since Jerry Koosman. Sold defense and a dependable pen will help more than number 5.

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 06:16 PM
A good closer makes your top four really good. You're not looking for number 5 to stop losing streaks, but rather continue winning streaks. We've been looking for number 5 since Jerry Koosman. Sold defense and a dependable pen will help more than number 5.
Where were you in the second half last year? Shingo was 19 for 20. The only victim was Garcia.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 06:20 PM
A good closer makes your top four really good. You're not looking for number 5 to stop losing streaks, but rather continue winning streaks. We've been looking for number 5 since Jerry Koosman. Sold defense and a dependable pen will help more than number 5.Is there something wrong with Shingo as our closer? :?:

Also, who would be our 5th starter if El Duque is the closer? Grilli, Diaz, or Munoz?

:chunks

eastchicagosoxfan
12-26-2004, 06:22 PM
Where were you in the second half last year? Shingo was 19 for 20. The only victim was Garcia.
I'm a pessimist. I think he was a one year gimmick. If he starts out strong, that's great. I'm just intrigued by the possibility of using El Duque as a closer. It's Shingo's job to lose.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 06:25 PM
I'm a pessimist. I think he was a one year gimmick. If he starts out strong, that's great. I'm just intrigued by the possibility of using El Duque as a closer. It's Shingo's job to lose.The fact is that...

El Duque as a starter > El Duque as a closer

At least for the White Sox, that is.

soltrain21
12-26-2004, 06:29 PM
Man..I love how people use the "this thread sucks" for someones opinion.


It would be a good idea if El Duque's health was a huge concern, but the Sox camp is making it sound like he is as healthy as he has been in a long time. I don't know how believable this is, but our training staff is excellent.


Truth be told, we really need El Duque as a starter. I don't care what starter number we use him as, because once the season is in full swing that really doesn't mean anything.

As long is ED is giving us 6 or so solid innings an outing then he is a great pickup.




If we are moving any starters to the closer role I would want it to be Jose...and that isn't saying much.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 06:32 PM
But "no" is such an obvious answer. Look what happened when we went to a 4-man rotation in the second half of last season. Everyone suffered. We need El Duque to start so we don't get a 5-15 record and an ERA of 15.00 out of the 5th starter spot with a combination of Grilli, Diaz, and Munoz...

:bundy

Brian26
12-26-2004, 06:36 PM
Is there something wrong with Shingo as our closer? :?:


Did you watch any games last year?

It was a major topic of conversation around baseball. As GOOD as Shingo looked for the first two months after he took over the closer's role with the scoreless innings streak and all the saves, he started to look very hittable down the stretch. All of a sudden, after one trip around the AL, guys were sitting and waiting for the mediocre fastball and laying off the frisbee. Guys were figuring him out. How many times did Shingo come in with 3 or 4 run leads and end up giving up some hits or runs and barely hang on for the save?

Fact is- Shingo started to look vulnerable after one trip around the AL, and it's not a bad question to ask. I'm not 100% certain he can be a closer for the entire season.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 06:38 PM
Where were you in the second half last year? Shingo was 19 for 20. The only victim was Garcia.
Stats are sometimes misleading. Shingo looked very vulnerable and gave up a lot of runs, barely hanging on for the save in a few instances. I remember one game in particular where he came in and gave up a homer in the 9th and another run and still got the save after all that.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 06:39 PM
Did you watch any games last year?

It was a major topic of conversation around baseball. As GOOD as Shingo looked for the first two months after he took over the closer's role with the scoreless innings streak and all the saves, he started to look very hittable down the stretch. All of a sudden, after one trip around the AL, guys were sitting and waiting for the mediocre fastball and laying off the frisbee. Guys were figuring him out. How many times did Shingo come in with 3 or 4 run leads and end up giving up some hits or runs and barely hang on for the save?

Fact is- Shingo started to look vulnerable after one trip around the AL, and it's not a bad question to ask. I'm not 100% certain he can be a closer for the entire season."Did you watch any games last year?"

Did you notice how Shingo was vulnerable when Ozzie used him for 2 innings? Closers shouldn't be used for 2 innings because batters get to see his stuff in the 8th inning. They are ready for the closer's "stuff" in the 9th then if the order turns over. Plus, closers aren't used to going 2 innings anyways.

BRDSR
12-26-2004, 06:44 PM
A good closer makes your top four really good. You're not looking for number 5 to stop losing streaks, but rather continue winning streaks.

I don't care about streaks. If the 5th starter takes the mound 28 times in 2005, I want the Sox to be competitive in those 28 games. Every game is distinct from every other. If we win 2, lose 1 for the entire season it'll be the best season in White Sox history without ever putting together a win streak of 3. Shingo is a good enough closer for now especially if we have 5 competitive starters. Marte can step up if need-be.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 06:45 PM
Did you notice how Shingo was vulnerable when Ozzie used him for 2 innings? Closers shouldn't be used for 2 innings because batters get to see his stuff in the 8th inning. They are ready for the closer's "stuff" in the 9th then if the order turns over. Plus, closers aren't used to going 2 innings anyways.
Most closers become more vulnerable after pitching in the 8th and coming back in the 9th.

My point was that after a trip around the AL, batters easily figured out how to lay off the frisbee and sit back and wait for the mediocre fastball.

Shingo looked just as vulnerable in the 9th as he did in the 8th.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 06:46 PM
I don't care about streaks. If the 5th starter takes the mound 28 times in 2005, I want the Sox to be competitive in those 28 games. Every game is distinct from every other. If we win 2, lose 1 for the entire season it'll be the best season in White Sox history without ever putting together a win streak of 3. Shingo is a good enough closer for now especially if we have 5 competitive starters. Marte can step up if need-be.Agreed, and some people say that Vizcaino has the stuff to be a closer.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 06:52 PM
Just some stats to think about...

In August last year, Shingo had 12 appearance with 6 saves, and a record of 1 win and 1 loss. He pitched 11.0 innings and gave up 9 runs, for an ERA close to 8.00.

Did he have an off month, or was the league catching up with him? All of those runs in August were spread out too. It's not like he just had one terrible outing and the rest were awesome.

BRDSR
12-26-2004, 06:59 PM
Just some stats to think about...

In August last year, Shingo had 12 appearance with 6 saves, and a record of 1 win and 1 loss. He pitched 11.0 innings and gave up 9 runs, for an ERA close to 8.00.

Did he have an off month, or was the league catching up with him? All of those runs in August were spread out too. It's not like he just had one terrible outing and the rest were awesome.
Brian, I think you're on to something. I think there is a distinct possibility that Shingo is not cut out to be a major league closer. His type of delivery is really difficult the first time you see it, but the more you see it the easier it gets. I think that the job is Shingo's to lose though, and if he does lose it, the job should go to someone already in the bullpen. Marte and Hermanson have experience closing games and Vizcaino might be able to as well. I just don't think that breaking up a solid starting rotation is a good idea. You have to get to the 9th inning with a lead before you can even begin to worry about a closer.

idseer
12-26-2004, 07:00 PM
Fact is- Shingo started to look vulnerable after one trip around the AL, and it's not a bad question to ask. I'm not 100% certain he can be a closer for the entire season.
fact is that's not true. he did have a poor august with 1 win and 6 saves in 7 save opportunities which is good but his era was 7.36 in 11 innings he had 4 poor games giving up 9 runs in 11 innings.

but after that he went 5 for 5 in saves with about a 1.75 era again.

so all year he had one off month but still racked up 6 out of 7 saves and now we should string him up?

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 07:06 PM
I think Shingo can dominate righties because of his delivery but he will always have alot of trouble with lefties because of his delivery as well. Here's a scary stat...

Shingo versus Right-handed batter - 0.53 ERA
Shingo versus Left-handed batter - 4.45 ERA

fquaye149
12-26-2004, 07:06 PM
I don't care if it's their opinion. IT STILL SUCKS.

We have 4 starters, we get El Duque. Someone says use him as the closer?!?!? WHO WILL START. Maybe if we had six starters. We don't. Ergo, this thread sucks.

I mean, what if my opinion were: Let's bench Frank and Paulie, play Timo at first and DH Uribe with Gload at SS. Would a thread I started with that idea not suck because it's my "opinion"?

jabrch
12-26-2004, 07:13 PM
If we had 5 other good starters, and we had no closer, this idea might be worth looking at. Since we don't have 5 other good starters, and we do have a good closer, I don't see why we'd consider this.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 07:14 PM
I don't care if it's their opinion. IT STILL SUCKS.

We have 4 starters, we get El Duque. Someone says use him as the closer?!?!? WHO WILL START. Maybe if we had six starters. We don't. Ergo, this thread sucks.

I mean, what if my opinion were: Let's bench Frank and Paulie, play Timo at first and DH Uribe with Gload at SS. Would a thread I started with that idea not suck because it's my "opinion"?If we had 5 other good starters, and we had no closer, this idea might be worth looking at. Since we don't have 5 other good starters, and we do have a good closer, I don't see why we'd consider this.Agreed. It's a stupid idea given our situation.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 07:36 PM
If we had 5 other good starters, and we had no closer, this idea might be worth looking at. Since we don't have 5 other good starters, and we do have a good closer, I don't see why we'd consider this.
Just to clarify, I'm not proposing we move el Duque to the closer's role. I think I may have hijacked this thread by pointing out some doubts about Shingo over the long haul.

A rumor I've heard several times, however, is that Contreras, down the line, may be converted to the closer. That's a lot of money right now for a closer when we weren't willing to try to sign Foulke, but that's neither here nor there.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 07:39 PM
A rumor I've heard several times, however, is that Contreras, down the line, may be converted to the closer. That's a lot of money right now for a closer when we weren't willing to try to sign Foulke, but that's neither here nor there.Ouch. Converting a starting pitcher who often can't find the plate to a closer? :o: That's an even worse idea. :tongue:

soltrain21
12-26-2004, 07:41 PM
Ouch. Converting a starting pitcher who often can't find the plate to a closer? :o: That's an even worse idea. :tongue:

Because we all know how terrible Gagne is as a closer.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 07:48 PM
Because we all know how terrible Gagne is as a closer. If Contreras has 8 strikeouts, more than likely he has walked 6 guys as well. He would need a bit more control to be a closer.

Kuzman
12-26-2004, 07:51 PM
Where were you in the second half last year? Shingo was 19 for 20. The only victim was Garcia.
i take the blame for that game... my gf broke up with me and my family took me out to a sox game to get my mind off of it.. so i blame the bad day on the blown save...

i wanted to cry when i saw that ball go over the wall

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 08:01 PM
Did you watch any games last year?

It was a major topic of conversation around baseball. As GOOD as Shingo looked for the first two months after he took over the closer's role with the scoreless innings streak and all the saves, he started to look very hittable down the stretch. All of a sudden, after one trip around the AL, guys were sitting and waiting for the mediocre fastball and laying off the frisbee. Guys were figuring him out. How many times did Shingo come in with 3 or 4 run leads and end up giving up some hits or runs and barely hang on for the save?

Fact is- Shingo started to look vulnerable after one trip around the AL, and it's not a bad question to ask. I'm not 100% certain he can be a closer for the entire season.Three times, twice to the Red Sox and once to the Phillies, both teams that can flat out hit.

The great thing about the Internet is you can check this stuff out. The game logs don't lie.

You are remembering August.

Shingo's ERA in September was 1.54. In 10 one inning or less appearances in September he allowed two baserunners only 3 times and a run only once. He allowed one run on 3 baserunners in a two inning stint. 9 H, 4 W, 2 runs in 11 2/3 innings. This is not a marginal performance.

In August, the Indians pounded him (a three run shot) in one game. The Red Sox clobbered him for two runs on back to back nights in games he still saved. He gave up two runs to the Phillies in a game he saved. All of his other appearances were scoreless. He still allowed two or more baserunners in less than half his appearances.

He was not teetering on the precipice. The Red Sox figured him out; then again, they were the best team in baseball and also figured out Mariano Rivera. The Indians solved him once in seven games.

Geez, stop looking for the catastrophe. That's how the Sox ended up trading Foulke for an awful pitcher, by projecting three May appearances into an idiotic personnel decision.

SoxFan76
12-26-2004, 08:29 PM
As long as they mix it up, I think Shingo will be fine. Keep him to 1 inning of work, and pitch Vizcaino/Marte/Pollite before him. Those 3 throw mid-high 90s, Shingo throws the speed of my sister. (If I had one)

That drastic change in velocity has to be hard to adjust to, no matter how good a hitter you are. I think (as it has been said already) Shingo really struggled when he had to go 2 innings to cover for Marte who had an off-year.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 08:36 PM
As long as they mix it up, I think Shingo will be fine. Keep him to 1 inning of work, and pitch Vizcaino/Marte/Pollite before him. Those 3 throw mid-high 90s, Shingo throws the speed of my sister. (If I had one)

That drastic change in velocity has to be hard to adjust to, no matter how good a hitter you are. I think (as it has been said already) Shingo really struggled when he had to go 2 innings to cover for Marte who had an off-year.Agreed. Heat for 2 innings and then junk in the 9th will really mess up opposing batters. Damn, our pitching staff looks good. :bandance:

OurBitchinMinny
12-26-2004, 09:19 PM
shingo was not as good in the second half. As the league sees him more and more he will get hit harder and harder (nomo). I dont think el duque is the answer. But even if shingo is perfect this year they do need to start grooming a closer because shingo is old. I doubt he will be as effective as last year

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 09:40 PM
shingo was not as good in the second half. As the league sees him more and more he will get hit harder and harder (nomo). I dont think el duque is the answer. But even if shingo is perfect this year they do need to start grooming a closer because shingo is old. I doubt he will be as effective as last year
One more time, check the game logs again. He was not as good in August, against the Red Sox twice, the Phillies, and the Indians one time. He was back to normal in September again, which blows the theory that he was fading. The teams that actually hit him didn't see him very much, they hit everybody.

The White Sox have four closers in waiting in Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino, and Hermanson. All of their key relief pitchers are capable of closing, which is a nice situation to have.

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 09:43 PM
i take the blame for that game... my gf broke up with me and my family took me out to a sox game to get my mind off of it.. so i blame the bad day on the blown save...

i wanted to cry when i saw that ball go over the wall
Did you realize you were seeing a once-in-a-season event? That's what it was.

I love Sox fans. They remember Shingo giving up a couple of runs twice to the Red Sox in shaky saves and then forget that he pitched an entire month after that without getting remotely threatened. It's the same disease that leads us to complain about Frank Thomas' speed, and, I suppose, the fact that our pitchers can't hit when they need to. Always looking at the dark side of everything, focusing on what players can't do, and assuming the worst.

Oh, yeah, wait a minute, the worst always somehow happens, doesn't it? ...

wdelaney72
12-26-2004, 10:35 PM
It's Singo's job to lose. Period. Opinion or not...

:threadblows:

Brian26
12-26-2004, 11:05 PM
One more time, check the game logs again. He was not as good in August, against the Red Sox twice, the Phillies, and the Indians one time. He was back to normal in September again, which blows the theory that he was fading.
There's also another old baseball axiom that says you should throw out any and all stats from September because they are meaningless with the expanded rosters and teams just playing out the schedule.

StockdaleForVeep
12-27-2004, 01:16 AM
Just some stats to think about...

In August last year, Shingo had 12 appearance with 6 saves, and a record of 1 win and 1 loss. He pitched 11.0 innings and gave up 9 runs, for an ERA close to 8.00.

Did he have an off month, or was the league catching up with him? All of those runs in August were spread out too. It's not like he just had one terrible outing and the rest were awesome.
I thought our entire team had the month of august off? Same goes for July.

A pitcher is gonna be lights on lights off any time. Should the dodgers cast off gagne because he wasnt perfect last season and blew a few games?

I remember everyone crappin on shingo in his ONE apperance when the yankees lit him up beginning of the season, then after he went hot everyone praised him. Leave the bandwagon in the barn people.

StockdaleForVeep
12-27-2004, 01:19 AM
Brian, I think you're on to something. I think there is a distinct possibility that Shingo is not cut out to be a major league closer. His type of delivery is really difficult the first time you see it, but the more you see it the easier it gets. I think that the job is Shingo's to lose though, and if he does lose it, the job should go to someone already in the bullpen. Marte and Hermanson have experience closing games and Vizcaino might be able to as well. I just don't think that breaking up a solid starting rotation is a good idea. You have to get to the 9th inning with a lead before you can even begin to worry about a closer.Yeah cuz hideo nomo's unusual pitching style is really getting him hammered in the 10 years he has played.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-27-2004, 01:35 AM
Can we put a LOCK on this thread? The thought just gives me a headache. WHYYY?????

OEO Magglio
12-27-2004, 01:46 AM
Worst. Idea. Ever. First off he fills the void in our rotation that has been there for a while now, secondly shingo is going to be absolutely fine. I think shingo got worn out at the end of last year because he's never pitched that many innings. Shingo was getting in trouble because he wasn't getting ahead of the hitters and all the sudden was walking more guys then he was earlier and usually when you're tired the first thing to go is your control. Shingo will be absolutely fine, he's not a one year wonder, the guy changes speeds to well as long as he's throwing strikes he's going to be fine.

chaz171
12-28-2004, 05:45 PM
:threadsucksGee, what do you think we traded carlos lee for?

StockdaleForVeep
12-28-2004, 05:51 PM
Just a curious thought, do any of the average sox fans on this board even know "el duque's" real name? All i see is his nickname all over

I dont see anyone commenting on shingo as only Mr. Zero

Just an observation

jabrch
12-28-2004, 05:52 PM
The White Sox have four closers in waiting in Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino, and Hermanson. All of their key relief pitchers are capable of closing, which is a nice situation to have.

Hermanson is so good, he is in waiting TWICE? :D:

fquaye149
12-28-2004, 06:02 PM
Just a curious thought, do any of the average sox fans on this board even know "el duque's" real name? All i see is his nickname all over

I dont see anyone commenting on shingo as only Mr. Zero

Just an observation
orlando hernandez is such a bland and character-heavy name. plus how often do you get to use the "Q" key in the middle of a word?

Mohoney
12-28-2004, 08:03 PM
Look what happened when we went to a 4-man rotation in the second half of last season.
Good point. When the name "Jon Garland" is penciled into a 4 man rotation, it puts an unfair burden on the other 3 guys, unless they're Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Lefty Grove.

johnny_mostil
12-28-2004, 08:29 PM
Good point. When the name "Jon Garland" is penciled into a 4 man rotation, it puts an unfair burden on the other 3 guys, unless they're Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Lefty Grove.
That should have been in teal.

Mohoney
12-28-2004, 08:40 PM
That should have been in teal.
Why, exactly, should this have been in teal? It's not sarcasm, it's the truth.

johnny_mostil
12-28-2004, 08:48 PM
Why, exactly, should this have been in teal? It's not sarcasm, it's the truth.Garland's record over the last 3 years is 36 wins and 36 losses, .500, for a team that plays .500 ball. His ERA is league average for the park for three years. This preposterous attitude that he somehow "sucks" is getting old. Just because he never lived up to some idiot writer's inflated expectation of superstardom when he was 18 years old doesn't make him some kind of hole. If he's the fifth starter, he's better than the fifth starter for at least 20-25 other teams. And, I might add, he's actually pitching successfully in the majors when most of his high school draftee peers have long since left baseball with career-terminating injuries.

What he hasn't done is put together a Carl Pavano/Todd Ritchie Fluke Season (TM) yet.

Be careful who you swap him for. 12-12 pitchers with 4.93 ERAs in USCF are not just falling out of trees in Bridgeport.

johnny_mostil
12-28-2004, 08:54 PM
Hermanson is so good, he is in waiting TWICE? :D:

I guess I was too polite to type Politte...

Mohoney
12-28-2004, 08:57 PM
Garland's record over the last 3 years is 36 wins and 36 losses, .500, for a team that plays .500 ball. His ERA is league average for the park for three years.
I was promised better from this guy. I want better from this guy.

Mediocre doesn't impress me at all.

36-36 with an ERA above 4.50 just SCREAMS mediocrity. Let's see what somebody else can do.

By the way, we're OVER .500 in this 3 year span, so I think that if we had a BETTER PITCHER THAN JON GARLAND, we could have made some serious noise one of these years.

The last time we made the playoffs, Jon Garland wasn't in our rotation.

johnny_mostil
12-28-2004, 08:57 PM
I dont see anyone commenting on shingo as only Mr. Zero

Ah, Zero-san, he teaches the mystery of frisbi besoboru...

johnny_mostil
12-28-2004, 09:03 PM
36-36 with an ERA above 4.50 just SCREAMS mediocrity. Let's see what somebody else can do.

By the way, we're OVER .500 in this 3 year span, so I think that if we had a BETTER PITCHER THAN JON GARLAND, we could have made some serious noise one of these years.

The last time we made the playoffs, Jon Garland wasn't in our rotation.
Last time the Sox made the playoffs, Jon Garland couldn't :gulp: legally.

And USCF adds a ton of runs to any pitcher's record. An ERA of 4.50 is good in that park. Santana can't do it. Mussina hasn't done it. Hudson hasn't done it. Buehrle can, because he's actually brilliant but we can't see it because we are so wedded to impressions built in a different ballpark in a game played with half the home runs, where a "good" ERA was 3.25, not 4.50. The game has changed, average teams score 800+ runs where they used to score 600, and the Sox play in a park that adds another 10% to that!

We have tried to see what others could do. Most of them were disasters. David Wells couldn't pitch in USCF. Ritchie blew up. Colon's ERA went up a run. The park eats pitchers by turning doubles and flies into dingers. Take all these guys people want and add a half run to their career ERAs for AL pitchers and a full run for NL pitchers -- which is what they'll do with those 40% extra homers at home they'll allow -- and you start deciding maybe old JG isn't so bad after all.

As for being promised "more", by whom? By the same writers who made Ruffcorn and Bolton and Wells and who knows else into aces-in-waiting?

Mohoney
12-28-2004, 09:14 PM
As for being promised "more", by whom? By the same writers who made Ruffcorn and Bolton and Wells and who knows else into aces-in-waiting?
Come on, this ORGANIZATION made them aces-in-waiting. I gave them the benefit of the doubt to provide me with said "ace in waiting", and it hasn't happened yet. That's why I'm waiting for McCarthy to hopefully buck the trend.

Garland is what he is until he PROVES otherwise. And what he is now is a 12 game winner AT MOST and a double digit loser AT LEAST.

The park isn't THAT much of a factor. The other guy that gets the win has to pitch there, too. Every game he loses there means that the other pitcher outperformed him in that park on that day.

By the way, his road ERA was 4.61. Are they ALL hitters' parks, or is the guy just undeniably mediocre?

Hangar18
12-29-2004, 08:42 AM
"Did you watch any games last year?"

Did you notice how Shingo was vulnerable when Ozzie used him for 2 innings? Closers shouldn't be used for 2 innings because batters get to see his stuff in the 8th inning. They are ready for the closer's "stuff" in the 9th then if the order turns over. Plus, closers aren't used to going 2 innings anyways.
*DING DING* post of the day. I noted how Ozzie "Jerry Manuel" Guillen
would use Shingo for more than an inning and he would be TERRIBLE.
Shingo is a one inning guy, and a pretty good one. Its when he brings him
in in the 7th expecting him to close out the game from there that we get
into trouble. All the games he got hit around, were when he came in in the 7th and 8th innings and more than an inning of work .........

Hangar18
12-29-2004, 08:47 AM
Be careful who you swap him for. 12-12 pitchers with 4.93 ERAs in USCF are not just falling out of trees in Bridgeport.
Ive always felt Jon Garland was a Good 5th Starter. Thats why I laughed
when the SOX anointed him as the 3rd Starter ........Before the guy proved ANYTHING. No wonder this organization HASNT won a pennant since 1959.
A team like the Yankees realize that and will make him the 5th starter ....
a team like the White Sox will "give up" on him and "trade" him for some baseballs

johnny_mostil
12-29-2004, 06:42 PM
By the way, his road ERA was 4.61. Are they ALL hitters' parks, or is the guy just undeniably mediocre?
Mediocre is not bad. You make it sound like he's an instant loss.

johnny_mostil
12-29-2004, 06:52 PM
*DING DING* post of the day. I noted how Ozzie "Jerry Manuel" Guillen
would use Shingo for more than an inning and he would be TERRIBLE.
Shingo is a one inning guy, and a pretty good one. Its when he brings him
in in the 7th expecting him to close out the game from there that we get
into trouble. All the games he got hit around, were when he came in in the 7th and 8th innings and more than an inning of work .........
Funny, I didn't notice that, and it doesn't check out.

Appearances of more than 1 inning by Shingo in 2004:
Scoreless: 4/16, 4/24, 4/28, 5/14, 5/21, 6/22, 6/26, 9/8
Allowed one unearned run: 7/28
Allowed one earned run: 7/4, 9/17
Allowed two runs: 8/13, 8/15 (both against Boston)

ERA in games where he pitched more than 1 inning: 2.86.

SuperSteve
12-30-2004, 04:34 AM
I'm intrigued at the possibility of using El Duque as a closer. Obviously he has to want the role, but I still find it interesting, to say the least. Eck used a funky delivery, and great control to become the best in the business. Why not El Duque? No way, that would be scary. I remember the talk last season about Contreras as a possible closer. Why would we move a starter to an already crowded bullpen. We have several options to close if Takatsu is not successful. Hernandez was brought in here to start, and JG should start as our fifth starter IMHO.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-30-2004, 07:17 AM
Garland isn't bad as a fourth or a fifth guy. He'll benefit from a much deeper bullpen, and a tighter defense. I really believe Sox fans are over-rating the role of the fifth starter, and significantly undervaluing the top three starters. Some info from 1993.
Pitcher Starts Wins Loses
McDowell 34 22 10
Fernandez 34 18 9
Alverez 31 15 8
---------------------------------------
99 55 27
-------------------------------------
McKaskill 14 4 8
Bere 24 12 5
Bolton 8 2 6
Belcher 11 3 8
Ruffcorn 2 0 2
Stieb 4 1 3
----------------------------------
63 20 32

Hernandez had 38 saves
Radinsky went 8 and 2.

I didn't look at innings pitched, or quality starts, just the stats listed. It leads me to believe that your number 4 is important, number 5 is just someone to keep the other guys rested. What do you gleen from the stats?