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View Full Version : Do the White Sox have the best pitching staff in the AL or MLB?


WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:38 PM
I think by far the best in the Central the Yakees have a good one with

Pavano
Musina
Vazquez
Brown
Wright

but then we have
Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Hernandez
Garland

I THINK WE HAVE A GREAT STAFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 04:40 PM
I think by far the best in the Central the Yakees have a good one with

Pavano
Musina
Vazquez
Brown
Wright

but then we have
Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Hernandez
Garland

I THINK WE HAVE A GREAT STAFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree. Potentially this Sox staff could be dominant if the Cubans come through.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:42 PM
ya i agree i think contreras has great potential and hernandez is a good pitcher.

DumpJerry
12-26-2004, 04:43 PM
To answer your question: no. Too many health questions. Based on past performances, we could claim the title, but they have to actually pitch. Keep in mind, Garcia was literally night and day between day games and night games. Garland has not yet established himself. Contreras did not exactly pitch with consistency with us last year. El Duque needs to show us he is recovered from his injuries and can put in a quality number of innings.

Buerhle should be an all-star, however.

If everyone plays to his potential, then your question might be answered yes.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:45 PM
To answer your question: no. Too many health questions. Based on past performances, we could claim the title, but they have to actually pitch. Keep in mind, Garcia was literally night and day between day games and night games. Garland has not yet established himself. Contreras did not exactly pitch with consistency with us last year. El Duque needs to show us he is recovered from his injuries and can put in a quality number of innings.

Buerhle should be an all-star, however.

If everyone plays to his potential, then your question might be answered yes.
ya but it think that we will have a great year 95 wins or so i think for the sox.

Foulke29
12-26-2004, 04:45 PM
There's no doubt that 1 through 5 that the Sox have the best - especially considering the age of 3 of the five starters. I'd say we're a closer away from having the best pitching staff in baseball - period.

That said, do we have the best 1-3 starters in the league - no.

Yanks have a better 1-3, St. Louis has a better 1-3 and Boston has a better 1-3.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:47 PM
There's no doubt that 1 through 5 that the Sox have the best - especially considering the age of 3 of the five starters. I'd say we're a closer away from having the best pitching staff in baseball - period.

That said, do we have the best 1-3 starters in the league - no.

Yanks have a better 1-3, St. Louis has a better 1-3 and Boston has a better 1-3.
boston no they got schilling yes miller no clement no wakefield no and who else?

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 04:47 PM
Best pitching staff in the A.L. Central? Yes.

Best pitching staff in the entire MLB. No.

HomeFish
12-26-2004, 04:50 PM
Anyone who thinks the White Sox have the best staff in even the AL, let alone all of MLB, is not in touch with reality. Its an embarassment to this website that somebody actually voted for the White Sox in this poll.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:50 PM
ok by the way david wells is old and fat so boson no and i think the sox have the best or tied for the best in the AL

Shingotime!!
12-26-2004, 04:51 PM
Best 1-3

Prior
Wood
Zambrano

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:52 PM
i think that fish is just in doubt when the sox go to the playoffs he will be sayin other wise

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 04:54 PM
Anyone who thinks the White Sox have the best staff in even the AL, let alone all of MLB, is not in touch with reality. Its an embarassment to this website that somebody actually voted for the White Sox in this poll.Do you agree with me though?
Best pitching staff in the A.L. Central? Yes.

Best pitching staff in the entire MLB. No.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-26-2004, 04:54 PM
Put up or shut up. The Sox pichers have been unable to do the first, so I'll do the second until proven wrong.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:55 PM
yes best 3 for cubs but not all around. i think it will be a battle of the pitchers and we have a closer in shingo if not him marte.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:56 PM
Do you agree with me though?
I do jabroni but al i think we are 2nd at least

HomeFish
12-26-2004, 04:56 PM
Do you agree with me though?

I think we have the best bottom of the rotation of anyone in the central, unless Cleveland signs Millwood, in which case they beat us in that.

In terms of 1-2 starters, though, Cleveland is right up there with us and Minnesota is above us.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 04:58 PM
I think we have the best bottom of the rotation of anyone in the central, unless Cleveland signs Millwood, in which case they beat us in that.

In terms of 1-2 starters, though, Cleveland is right up there with us and Minnesota is above us.
i disagree i think we got a great staff al the way around.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 05:01 PM
I think we have the best bottom of the rotation of anyone in the central, unless Cleveland signs Millwood, in which case they beat us in that.

In terms of 1-2 starters, though, Cleveland is right up there with us and Minnesota is above us.How about complete pitching staff (starting pitchers and bullpen) in the A.L. Central? It has to be the Sox, right?

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 05:01 PM
yes

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 05:02 PM
Best pitching staff in the A.L. Central? Yes.

Best pitching staff in the entire MLB. No.
The Angels still look better than the White Sox. The Athletics have declined but they will still be good. The Red Sox are likely to be better than the White Sox, too.

The Twins were significantly better last year... but it remains to be seen if Santana and Silva can hold onto their huge jumps in productivity, Santana from excellent to (whoa!) and Silva from bullpen to rotation. Lohse is still the fourth starter, though, and is Mays healthy or are they trying the Mulholland thing again? Finally, between Radke and Santana and Hunter and Stewart and Jacque, they are spending money they don't have -- their owner is, I think, secretly Scrooge McDuck -- so you have to wonder if they may finally start to show fraying...

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 05:07 PM
i hope we get placido polonco or cora or zaun

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 05:08 PM
i hope we get placido polonco or cora or zaunPolanco. :thumbsup:
Cora :cool:
Zaun :cool:

If we don't for Polanco, Cora is better than nothing. I don't see us signing Zaun either. He is expected to re-sign with Toronto.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 05:10 PM
u think we will

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 05:13 PM
wat do u think the sox's record we be i think around 95 wins

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 05:14 PM
u think we willPolanco - Hopefully, but I doubt it.
Cora - Yes.
Zaun - No.

veeter
12-26-2004, 05:14 PM
Maybe I'm biased but what is with the unconditional love for the Cub's pitching staff. First they can't stay healthy, ever. (Injuries are part of the game). When Kerry Wood does pitch, he's terribly uneconomical with his pitches. He battles wildness and rarely goes deep into games. Wood also can blow BIG leads (remember the Sox comeback game)!! Prior is terrific but also gets hurt. In my opinion America is in love with "stuff". Stuff doesn't always translate into wins, hence: third place last year. The "wow" factor has taken over sports' spotlight. Dunks, long homeruns, strikeouts and touchdown celebrations are praised even if a win isn't the result. I hope the Sox give us 94 of the most boring victories ever.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-26-2004, 05:15 PM
cora is better than harris

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 05:16 PM
Maybe I'm biased but what is with the unconditional love for the Cub's pitching staff. First they can't stay healthy, ever. (Injuries are part of the game). When Kerry Wood does pitch, he's terribly uneconomical with his pitches. He battles wildness and rarely goes deep into games. Wood also can blow BIG leads (remember the Sox comeback game)!! Prior is terrific but also gets hurt. In my opinion America is in love with "stuff". Stuff doesn't always translate into wins, hence: third place last year. The "wow" factor has taken over sports' spotlight. Dunks, long homeruns, strikeouts and touchdown celebrations are praised even if a win isn't the result. I hope the Sox give us 94 of the most boring victories ever.Agreed. They are great on paper but since they can never stay healthy it doesn't mean much.

JoseCanseco6969
12-26-2004, 10:41 PM
Anyone who thinks the White Sox have the best staff in even the AL, let alone all of MLB, is not in touch with reality. Its an embarassment to this website that somebody actually voted for the White Sox in this poll. Homefish, you have impressed me again for a change...When i saw this poll, I thought what a joke it was to even include us in the poll. We have a solid staff, dont get me wrong...but not even close to the red sox:angry:, cubs:angry: and yankees:angry: (when all healthy). I feel bad saying it, but its true. This doesnt mean our staff doesnt have the potential, which they do, to be the best...but lets be real guys. We need Buehrle and Garcia to continue pitching like the allstars they are, El Duque to stay healthy, Contreras to learn how to locate that forkball and stay consistant, and Garland to get his head out of his ass and pitch like we all knew he could. If we do all those, yes we can come close to those stud rotations, but even then couldnt top them from 1-5.

zach074
12-26-2004, 11:35 PM
No one will know untill the season begins, what is on paper means nothing. For all we know the Devil Rays staff could step up in a big way and be the best.

Chrisaway
12-27-2004, 12:21 AM
Ehhh the best staff in baseball is the Cubs but i couldnt bring myself to vote for them so I picked the Sox.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-27-2004, 12:32 AM
Best 1-3

Prior
Wood
Zambrano
Please give me career high in wins for all 3 and best Cy Young finish, if any, by all 3. If it wasn't for Prior's 18 wins and 3rd or 4th place finish, I doubt those numbers would even be above average. They maybe good on certain months separately, but as a unite, they haven't been amazing, nowhere near best staff in baseball. 2005 will be the 3rd full season of these 3 together, and nothing amazing has happened yet. And if you want to bring up the 2003 playoffs to prove me wrong, who lost games 6 and 7 of the NLCS?

Best 1-3 will be Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano (version 2004), and Mike Mussina.
Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, and El Duque, if healthy and if on top of their game, are right behind the potential Yankee rotation when it comes to best 1-3's in the game. But that's 2 too many if's.

Jabroni
12-27-2004, 12:36 AM
Please give me career high in wins for all 3 and best Cy Young finish, if any, by all 3. If it wasn't for Prior's 18 wins and 3rd or 4th place finish, I doubt those numbers would even be above average. They maybe good on certain months separately, but as a unite, they haven't been amazing, nowhere near best staff in baseball. 2005 will be the 3rd full season of these 3 together, and nothing amazing has happened yet. And if you want to bring up the 2003 playoffs to prove me wrong, who lost games 6 and 7 of the NLCS?

Best 1-3 will be Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano (version 2004), and Mike Mussina.
Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, and El Duque, if healthy and if on top of their game, are right behind the potential Yankee rotation when it comes to best 1-3's in the game. But that's 2 too many if's.Wins are an overrated pitching statistic but in this case it does have some bearing. It shows that neither Wood nor Prior can stay healthy. Still, career ERA is a better statistic to judge pitchers by.

OEO Magglio
12-27-2004, 12:42 AM
Ehhh the best staff in baseball is the Cubs but i couldnt bring myself to vote for them so I picked the Sox.
There is no way the cubs have the best staff in baseball, arguably the best rotation but no where near the best staff because their bullpen is awful. If I'm choosing between the sox staff and cubs staff I'm taking the sox. Now I think right now I give Boston the nod for best overall pitching staff in baseball with the White Sox 2nd. Until the yanks land unit I think overall the white sox have a better staff, jmo.

Jabroni
12-27-2004, 12:45 AM
There is no way the cubs have the best staff in baseball, arguably the best rotation but no where near the best staff because their bullpen is awful. If I'm choosing between the sox staff and cubs staff I'm taking the sox. Now I think right now I give Boston the nod for best overall pitching staff in baseball with the White Sox 2nd. Until the yanks land unit I think overall the white sox have a better staff, jmo.Agreed. The Cubs could have the best 1 - 4 (Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Maddux) but there's no way they have the best pitching staff in baseball. They currently don't even have a closer and Farnsworth is a head-case. They lost Mercker to free agency (Reds) and who knows what Borowski will be like coming back from his injury. If Ryan Dempster is their projected closer, they could be in for some more LaTroy Hawkins-type explosions. :tongue:

PicktoCLick72
12-27-2004, 02:02 AM
With the addition of Jose Lima I think we have to include the Royals in this discussion.

champagne030
12-27-2004, 10:12 AM
Anyone who thinks the White Sox have the best staff in even the AL, let alone all of MLB, is not in touch with reality. Its an embarassment to this website that somebody actually voted for the White Sox in this poll.you are correct! we could have the best 3-5 (AL) IF some trends change dramatically.....one cuban actually pitching more than 100 innings and the other not being a mental midget like judy. speaking of judy, a perfect 5 and a so-so 4.

CecilCooper
12-27-2004, 10:16 AM
I don't think even the wildest fantasist could claim we are approaching any where near the "best staff in MLB." Contreras is a headcase who doesn't use all his pitches, Hernandez is a huge injury risk, and Garland is mediocre.That said, it's the best staff we've had in a while, at least in terms of potential.

In speaking to some Milwaukee fans over the holiday, they inform me that Vizcaino's ERA is deceptive - he has a tendency to give up the big knock. Marte is similar - effective except in the clutch. Hermanson is another injury risk, Politte still hasn't gotten it together, Cotts/Adkins are unproven, Takatsu is encouraging, but a question mark with the whole "been around the league" question.

But again, that said, it's the best pen we've had in a while. Oh, sure, I'll miss Mike Jackson - it's always nice to see a first pitch grand slam now and again...

ma-gaga
12-27-2004, 10:31 AM
What are you crazy? Zito, Harden, Blanton, Haren and Meyer is clearly the best staff in baseball.

Clearly.

:)

FarWestChicago
12-27-2004, 10:34 AM
Its an embarassment to this website that somebody actually voted for the White Sox in this poll.Actually, almost any post you make is a much bigger embarrassment to this site. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Giallo
12-27-2004, 11:59 AM
The Cubs' starting pitching is top 5 in baseball. Even last year with all the injuries, they had the second best starters ERA in the NL. I would put the Cubs staff a notch or two above the Sox. I would take Prior and Zambrano over Buehrle and Garcia. I would take Wood over Hernandez. I would take Maddux over Contreras. I would take Rusch over Garland. That's not to say the Sox pitchers are bad, but if I were comparing slots, the Cubs beat them. At the bottom of the rotation, the Sox have potential, but until I seem some consistant production, I have little confidence in Contreras or Garland. The bullpen is another story. I'm not convinced that either team has a real closer, but the Sox have some proven set-up men.

All that said, the Yankees have the best starting staff in baseball.

SoxFan76
12-27-2004, 12:01 PM
Prior is potentially the best pitcher in Chicago, although he has to stay healthy to get that honor.

I'd take Buerhle, Garcia, and maybe even Contreras over Wood.

Zambrano is probably the best pitcher on their staff, but he's still very immature.

Maddux is solid, definitely not the same Maddux though.

Who is their 5th starter? Rusch? I'd take any of the Sox starters over Rusch.

Moral of the story, I truly believe the Sox have a better staff overall.

fquaye149
12-27-2004, 12:28 PM
Anyone who thinks the White Sox have the best staff in even the AL, let alone all of MLB, is not in touch with reality. Its an embarassment to this website that somebody actually voted for the White Sox in this poll.
I think you're being a little over pessimistic. I wouldn't necessarily say we're the best in the MLB or even the AL. However, while there are probably 5 teams in the AL who have as good or better 1-3 than us, I can't see any team with as good a front 5, assuming health is not a problem (but even so, that doesn't make people who think we have the best rotation out of touch with reality.)

In my opinion (and I think reality will back me up) the three most solid rotations in the AL (and therefore the best) are

White Sox, Yankees...and frankly I'm stumped.

You want to talk about question marks... Every team in the AL has suspect pitching up and down their rotation. Can Kyle Lohse and Terry Mulholland pitch reasonably? I doubt it. Can the A's rely on Redman, Harden and Blanton...and who is their 5th starter? And will Zito imitate the beginning or end of last season?

And the Indians? Are you kidding? Westbrook and Sabathia are solid, even very good pitchers. However, Cliff Lee is a bigger headcase than Garland and his 5.43 ERA proves it. Even with the acquisition of Millwood (who has blown the past two years - in the NL) their back end is not all that strong. You could make a case their 1-2 is better than ours, and you could make a case that it's not....but you'd have to be a spin master to try to assert their 3-4-5 is anywhere near ours.

Of course, none of this matters - they don't give out any awards for having the "Best" rotation going into a season - they don't even give out any awards for having the best rotation at the end of a season...you still have to win.

Jabroni
12-27-2004, 12:43 PM
I'd rank the top 5 rotations (on paper) in the A.L. like this...

1.) New York Yankees (Mussina, Brown, Vazquez, Pavano, Wright)
2.) Boston Red Sox (Schilling, Clement, Wells, Arroyo, Wakefield/Miller)
3.) Chicago White Sox (Buehrle, Garcia, El Duque, Contreras, Garland)
4.) Anaheim Angels (Bartolo Colon, Jarrod Washburn, Escobar, Lackey, Byrd)
5.) Minnesota Twins (Santana, Radke, Silva, Lohse, Mays/Mullholand)

WhiteSoxFan84
12-27-2004, 02:04 PM
Prior is potentially the best pitcher in Chicago, although he has to stay healthy to get that honor.

I'd take Buerhle, Garcia, and maybe even Contreras over Wood.

Zambrano is probably the best pitcher on their staff, but he's still very immature.

Maddux is solid, definitely not the same Maddux though.

Who is their 5th starter? Rusch? I'd take any of the Sox starters over Rusch.

Moral of the story, I truly believe the Sox have a better staff overall.
Alright there buddy, did your roomate who's a Cub fan get on your computer and try to make sense?

Until Zambrano, who was a complete bust in the 2003 playoffs, and/or Prior prove to be the amazing performers (rotation wise) they are said to be, and do it constantly including in the playoffs, I truly believe that Mark Buehrle, when ontop of his game, is the best pitcher in Chicago. He also has been, God Bless, pretty durable thoroughout his career.

JRIG
12-27-2004, 02:26 PM
Alright there buddy, did your roomate who's a Cub fan get on your computer and try to make sense?

Until Zambrano, who was a complete bust in the 2003 playoffs, and/or Prior prove to be the amazing performers (rotation wise) they are said to be, and do it constantly including in the playoffs, I truly believe that Mark Buehrle, when ontop of his game, is the best pitcher in Chicago. He also has been, God Bless, pretty durable thoroughout his career.Can't believe I'm defending the Cubs, but when has Mark Buehrle ever been consistantly good in the playoffs?

If I had to bet on one Chicago pitcher to have the best season, it's Prior, then Zambrano, then Buehrle.

OEO Magglio
12-27-2004, 02:28 PM
Can't believe I'm defending the Cubs, but when has Mark Buehrle ever been consistantly good in the playoffs?

If I had to bet on one Chicago pitcher to have the best season, it's Prior, then Zambrano, then Buehrle.
I know what you're saying but I think when Buehrle gets his chance he'll be very good, because he seems to pitch great when you need him to. Prior has to prove something again to me, I know he was injury plagued last year but even while pitching he wasn't very good. Zambrano is one heck of a pitcher but I don't think he'll ever be a big game pitcher, he's to emotional and always seems to overthrow in big games.

Jabroni
12-27-2004, 02:29 PM
Can't believe I'm defending the Cubs, but when has Mark Buehrle ever been consistantly good in the playoffs?

If I had to bet on one Chicago pitcher to have the best season, it's Prior, then Zambrano, then Buehrle.Ouch man, ouch...

SoxFan76
12-27-2004, 02:34 PM
Alright there buddy, did your roomate who's a Cub fan get on your computer and try to make sense?

Until Zambrano, who was a complete bust in the 2003 playoffs, and/or Prior prove to be the amazing performers (rotation wise) they are said to be, and do it constantly including in the playoffs, I truly believe that Mark Buehrle, when ontop of his game, is the best pitcher in Chicago. He also has been, God Bless, pretty durable thoroughout his career.Alright there buddy, relax. I hate the Cubs as much as the next Sox fan, but you have to think rationally here. Zambrano has the best stuff out of all the Chicago pitchers, and Prior has the ability to become the best pitcher in Chicago. Is Prior the best pitcher in Chicago? No, Buerhle is. Zambrano may have the best stuff, but Garcia has shown he can effectively use his pitches. Zambrano has not. Therefore, as I said in my first post:
Moral of the story, I truly believe the Sox have a better staff overall

WhiteSoxFan84
12-27-2004, 03:11 PM
Alright there buddy, relax. I hate the Cubs as much as the next Sox fan, but you have to think rationally here. Zambrano has the best stuff out of all the Chicago pitchers, and Prior has the ability to become the best pitcher in Chicago. Is Prior the best pitcher in Chicago? No, Buerhle is. Zambrano may have the best stuff, but Garcia has shown he can effectively use his pitches. Zambrano has not. Therefore, as I said in my first post: I completely understand what you're saying. But I still will disagree with you. Mark Buehrle has CONSTANTLY been the best pitcher in Chicago. Prior had an amazing 2003 and falls apart (injury wise, performance was well) in 2004. But let's face it, if he's already facing serious injuries in only his 3rd season, will he ever be able to pitch 245 innings like Buehrle? Only time will tell, but my money is on NO.

Garcia's postseason stats are amazing compared to Zambrano's and more efficient compared to Prior's.

Speaking of which, the Braves in the 2003 playoffs really pissed me off. They were swinging at EVERYTHING! I can't get the image of Javy Lopez swinging at a pitch that didn't even make it over the plate out of my head. That Cubs postseason can be described with one word; Fluke.

Chrisaway
12-27-2004, 03:51 PM
There is no way the cubs have the best staff in baseball, arguably the best rotation but no where near the best staff because their bullpen is awful. If I'm choosing between the sox staff and cubs staff I'm taking the sox. Now I think right now I give Boston the nod for best overall pitching staff in baseball with the White Sox 2nd. Until the yanks land unit I think overall the white sox have a better staff, jmo.
Thats what I meant was they have the best rotation. I didnt even take the bullpen into account. In which case I'd have to say the Yankees have the best overall staff. But the White Sox are right up there finally:D: .

TheBull19
12-29-2004, 12:57 PM
I'd rank the top 5 rotations (on paper) in the A.L. like this...

1.) New York Yankees (Mussina, Brown, Vazquez, Pavano, Wright)
2.) Boston Red Sox (Schilling, Clement, Wells, Arroyo, Wakefield/Miller)
3.) Chicago White Sox (Buehrle, Garcia, El Duque, Contreras, Garland)
4.) Anaheim Angels (Bartolo Colon, Jarrod Washburn, Escobar, Lackey, Byrd)
5.) Minnesota Twins (Santana, Radke, Silva, Lohse, Mays/Mullholand)There's no way of knowing. I definitely wouldn't say the Yankees, at this point, clearly have the best rotation in the AL, for example. Pavano and Wright could likely be the next Loaiza's - there numbers were pretty bad before last year. And of course, Brown always has about a 80% chance of being nearlyworthless. I would rate Mussina a notch lower than Buehrle at this point. Sure, they COULD end up being the best in the AL, but I could just as likely see them being average to even a bit below average by the end of the season.

Schilling and Santana clearly stand out above the other starters in the AL, but those rotations could go either way as well behind them.

The sox have as good a chance as any of them to have the best rotation in the AL, I'd rate NY,BOS,MN and the sox as about equal at this point, and I don't think that could have been said about them going into a season for the last ten years.

The yankees do have a pretty clear cut advantage in the bullpen department, though, in my opinion. Man - Rivera, Gordon, Rodriguez, Stanton, Quantrill, Karsay, that just ain't fair.

Hangar18
12-29-2004, 01:06 PM
Anyone who thinks the White Sox have the best staff in even the AL, let alone all of MLB, is not in touch with reality. Its an embarassment to this website that somebody actually voted for the White Sox in this poll.
The SOX went from a Mediocre pitching staff with great power hitters (needing some speed and table-setters at top/bottom of lineup) to having an OK staff.
And I mean that, this is an OK staff, one that can help win a division, but NOT one to win in October. Oh, and in "building" this staff, we traded away the one thing we could beat others with ...... our Power.
One Step Forward, Three Steps Back. If we had this staff in 2000, or in 2001. or in 2002. Or even in 2003 (the best chance out of all the years).
Or even last year ...... couldve been special.

doublem23
12-29-2004, 01:08 PM
Alright there buddy, did your roomate who's a Cub fan get on your computer and try to make sense?

Until Zambrano, who was a complete bust in the 2003 playoffs, and/or Prior prove to be the amazing performers (rotation wise) they are said to be, and do it constantly including in the playoffs, I truly believe that Mark Buehrle, when ontop of his game, is the best pitcher in Chicago. He also has been, God Bless, pretty durable thoroughout his career.I'd rank the city's pitchers as so:

Mark Prior... If he is healthy there's no comparison between him and Buehrle.
Mark Buehrle
Freddy Garcia/Kerry Wood
Freddy Garcia/Kerry Wood... I like Wood's heat and slider, but I think when it is all said and done, Freddy is a much better thinker on the hill, which I why I give him the nod over #5...
Carlos Zambrano
Greg Maddux
Orlando Hernandez... Probably as good as Maddux, but not as healthy for being roughly the same age
Jose Contreras
Glendon Rusch/Jon Garland
Glendon Rusch/Jon Garland... If Jon ever puts it to-****ing-gether, he probably could leap all the way to #6, but as is, Rockhead (great nickname) probably wouldn't crack the Cubs' rotation.
Also, there is no comparison; the Cubs' rotation is definitely better than ours.

doublem23
12-29-2004, 01:09 PM
The SOX went from a Mediocre pitching staff with great power hitters (needing some speed and table-setters at top/bottom of lineup) to having an OK staff.
And I mean that, this is an OK staff, one that can help win a division, but NOT one to win in October. Oh, and in "building" this staff, we traded away the one thing we could beat others with ...... our Power.
One Step Forward, Three Steps Back. If we had this staff in 2000, or in 2001. or in 2002. Or even in 2003 (the best chance out of all the years).
Or even last year ...... couldve been special.
I don't understand how gaining pitching is a step forward, but then trading away some power (for speed that you claim we need) basically means we've taken only a step forward and then 3 backwards.

MRKARNO
12-29-2004, 01:15 PM
Really good pitching staffs up for debate:

White Sox
Twins
Dodgers
Yankees
Red Sox
Braves
Cardinals
Cubs
Marlins
Angels

These are probably the Ten best. Let's examine each in inverse order of mention:

Angels: Colon and Escobar are a decent top two, especially Escobar who might be the single most underrated pitcher in baseball. Their 3-5 sucks however. They're only on this list because of their bullpen and now it lacks Percival, so I dont know how good they really are anymore (though Percival was definitely overrated, he was a solid reliever). K-Rod is amazing and Donnely is good too, but I just dont see this being an excellent staff because of their weak rotation.

Marlins-Their rotation is potentially a very good one (Beckett, Burnett, Leiter, WIllis, ? (Kensing?)) but they have a question in the five hole. I love their 1-3 if healthy. They have Mota in the pen as well as Alfonseca, but not much else of significance. Theirs is a very good one, but I dont think I can say a tops in the majors staff.

Cubs: I dont think you can say with a straight face that there is a better 1-3 in the majors than Prior Wood and Zambrano. There are many questions after that however. Maddux is aging and gave up a crapload of homers last year. Is Glendon Rusch really a viable 5th starter? His previous NL Stats dont indicate it. They dont have a closer and except for Hawkins in any inning but the 9th, they dont really have many other very good relievers. I think they will be annointed by many as the best as some will be blinded by that amazing front three, but they arent really a complete staff.

Cardinals: This is an excellent candidate for the top spot in the majors. A rotation of Mulder, Morris, Carpenter, Marquis and SUppan could be an amazing one next year if last years' performances and the track records of these pitchers dictate. They still have a solid bullpen after losing pretty much only some spare parts and Steve Kline. They didnt lose Ray King and they still have Izzy. The majors' best pitching staff last year might be the best next year as well.

Braves: Another good candidate. Hudson, Smotlz, Hampton, Thomson and Ramirez is another very good rotation, especially if Smoltz turns out to be a solid starter once again. They now have Kolb to close out their games as well. Their pen did get weaker with the losses of Cruz and Alfonseca, but they always find a way to have a good bullpen. the 7th and 8th innings might turn out to be problems for them however. I would rate the Cardinals pen above theirs at this stage.

Red Sox: This is also a decent candidate. Schilling, Clement, Wells, Arroyo and Wakefield form a solid rotation (Wade Miller's in there somewhere I know), but I think they have a lot more questions that many people think. Schilling wont be ready at the start, but he'll be fine when he is. How will Clement fare in his NL to AL switch? Will Wells stay healthy and if he does, will his style still be well suited for big success in the AL? Is Arroyo ready to continue what he did last year or even build on it? Is Wakefield going to repeat his bad performance of last year? Where will Wade Miller fit in this equation and will he be as good as he was before his problems? I think this staff has the potential to be very problematic. Their bullpen also has questions, though not with Foulke. WIll Mantei bounce back? Is Timlin on his decline? Lots and lots of questions for this pitching staff IMO which has the potential to be the best or not so impressive.

Paulwny
12-29-2004, 01:17 PM
No pitching staff can be rated #1 when it has 3 question marks,
El Duque-- health
Contreras-- head case
Garland -- head case

Hangar18
12-29-2004, 01:21 PM
I don't understand how gaining pitching is a step forward, but then trading away some power (for speed that you claim we need) basically means we've taken only a step forward and then 3 backwards.
All we needed was some Decent TableSetters in the lineup to COMPLIMENT
all the power. Weve needed a 5th starter since 2001, and we finally fill the hole at the expense of our hitting.

Weakening one area to Strengthen another is Not The Way Championships are Won.

doublem23
12-29-2004, 01:28 PM
Weakening one area to Strengthen another is Not The Way Championships are Won.
But it's arguable that too much of a strength is a bad thing as well. Look at the Red Sox, the World Champions. Outside of Manny and Ortiz, what big bats did they have? In fact, I'd say weakening areas of strength is exactly how championships are won; if you're team is unbalanced (as the Sox were last year), you have to take away some of that and then balance out the other areas. The Sox featured a better power core in 2004 than the '04 Red Sox, '03 Marlins, '02 Angels, '01 Diamondbacks and those great Yankee teams of the mid-90s but there was so little balance with the '04 Sox it ultimately did not bloom to anything.

Elementary economics in general states that one cannot have it all, and I do applaud Kenny Williams for his efforts this off-season to start to make over this team. I would have preferred to see him lose Konerko and not Lee, but I think that the Sox are in better shape than they were at this point 366 days ago.

TheBull19
12-29-2004, 01:48 PM
But it's arguable that too much of a strength is a bad thing as well. Look at the Red Sox, the World Champions. Outside of Manny and Ortiz, what big bats did they have?

The Sox featured a better power core in 2004 than the '04 Red Sox, I'd have to disagree with you there, Ramirez and Ortiz by themselves constituted a better power core than the sox . Their team outslugged the sox .472 to .457. They led the league in doubles and batting average and 4th in homers. I'd call that pretty good sluggin'.

fquaye149
12-29-2004, 02:37 PM
I'd have to disagree with you there, Ramirez and Ortiz by themselves constituted a better power core than the sox . Their team outslugged the sox .472 to .457. They led the league in doubles and batting average and 4th in homers. I'd call that pretty good sluggin'.
so the marlins last year or the angels 2 years ago?

I'm not saying that you need to be speedy or that the Marlins or Angels didn't have sluggers (because they certainly did) but I think with Frank and Paulie and Dye we match up favorably against most lineups (red sox and cardinals and yankees excepted, but I think our pitching is better than theirs)

MRKARNO
12-29-2004, 03:39 PM
Just continuing on my last post (I had the full continuation typed out before a flaw on my comp made the browser go back and my edits unrecoverable. Is there a way to fix this mods?) I would say that the Sox definitely have the potential to be up there if a few things fall our way, but there is no clear cut best pitching staff in the AL or MLB.