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Brian26
12-24-2004, 06:00 PM
Are we absolutely done with moves?

Starting Rotation:
1- Buehrle
2- Garcia
3- Hernandez
4- Contreras
5- Garland

Bullpen
6- Closer- Shingo
7- Lefty Setup- Marte
8- Righty Setup- Hermanson
9- Lefty Middle- Cotts
10- Righty Middle- Politte
11- Righty Long- Adkins
12- Vizcaino

That filled up quickly, and there's no room for Grilli, Diaz or Munoz.

MUsoxfan
12-24-2004, 06:01 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Cotts in and out of AAA this year. He really needs to improve. Grilli may have himself a bullpen spot

johnny_mostil
12-24-2004, 07:23 PM
That filled up quickly, and there's no room for Grilli, Diaz or Munoz.
Good. You can add Kevin Walker and Bajenaru to that insurance-only list.

With five real starters there probably is no need for a ludicrous Tony LaRussa 7-man pen (there won't be enough work for all those guys with starters going 7 every game, he says wishfully), so Adkins is probably on the cusp of Minor Leagueness too.

JoseCanseco6969
12-24-2004, 07:29 PM
so Adkins is probably on the cusp of Minor Leagueness too. does he have an minor league option left?

S.S. Lumber Yard
12-24-2004, 07:45 PM
Daaaamn! Looks real nice to me. :cool:

OurBitchinMinny
12-24-2004, 07:45 PM
Garcia should get the ball opening day and be the #1. Also they better have a backup plan at closer. I know both these things will get me ripped, but its just my opinion. Maybe give buerhle the ball since he has been here longer, but garcia is the better pitcher

Brian26
12-24-2004, 07:51 PM
Garcia should get the ball opening day and be the #1. Also they better have a backup plan at closer. I know both these things will get me ripped, but its just my opinion.
I agree with you regarding the closer situation. Lots of people were catching on to Shingo towards the end of the year, and I have my doubts if the frisbee will continue to fool AL pitching through an entire year.

Rumor is the closer in waiting is Contreras. Which means someone else steps up to start.

I'm not 100% against seeing Loaiza invited to Spring Training.

johnny_mostil
12-24-2004, 07:54 PM
does he have an minor league option left?
Sure. He wasn't added to the 40 man roster until December of 2002, and he was optioned in 2003, but never in 2004, so I believe the White Sox still have two options left. They also have two for Neil Cotts.

Brian26
12-24-2004, 07:55 PM
Sure. He wasn't added to the 40 man roster until December of 2002, and he was optioned in 2003, but never in 2004, so I believe the White Sox still have two options left. They also have two for Neil Cotts.
Joe Borchard on the otherhand....

:D:

johnny_mostil
12-24-2004, 07:57 PM
Joe Borchard on the otherhand....

:D:
Has one, I think. His contract was purchased in September, 2002, so he's been optioned in 2 years so far.

MHOUSE
12-24-2004, 10:40 PM
I think Mark should get the ball opening day. He's been our ace pitcher the last few seasons despite everything that has changed on the staff around him. He's been the truly consistent mainstay in the rotation.

Bullpen:
Closer - Shingo
Lefty set-up - Marte
Righty set-up - Hermanson, Politte, Vizcaino
Righty middle - Adkins, Grilli?
Lefty middle - Cotts?

Emergency: Walker, Bajenaru
Starting at AAA: Diaz, Munoz

I think any of the set-up guys could theoretically close out games if Shingo fails. It might come down to Cotts and Grilli for the last bullpen spot. Can we send Grilli down without risking him on waivers? I'd rather have Cotts learn how to become a starter anyways. I think Diaz could be a starter someday too.

WhiteSoxAaron
12-24-2004, 11:09 PM
ya i think a healthy kelly wunsch will make the team over cotts

BRDSR
12-24-2004, 11:25 PM
ya i think a healthy kelly wunsch will make the team over cotts
Kelly Wunsch is no longer in the organization to my chagrin. I believe he's already been snatched up by a team(I feel like he went west, but I can't remember to whom). In any case, he will not be making the team over anyone.

Brian26
12-24-2004, 11:35 PM
Kelly Wunsch is no longer in the organization to my chagrin. I believe he's already been snatched up by a team(I feel like he went west, but I can't remember to whom).
Dodgers.

Ozzballfest
12-25-2004, 02:33 AM
I certainly hope nothing is set with the pitching staff. If one or more of the projected starters gets rocked in spring, he better not be in the rotation. That may mean Dustin, starts. Same with the pen. If somebody struggles in spring he better not be on the roster or in a certain role.

Dibbs
12-25-2004, 09:59 AM
Mark will definately get the ball on opening day. Especially with it being at home for the first time in 14 years or so...

johnny_mostil
12-25-2004, 10:46 AM
Kelly Wunsch is no longer in the organization to my chagrin. I believe he's already been snatched up by a team(I feel like he went west, but I can't remember to whom). In any case, he will not be making the team over anyone.
Kelly is what is sometimes called a LOOGy, a Lefty One Out guy. Ozzie, to his credit, doesn't much believe in LOOGys, and because he doesn't go get his starter in the fifth inning, he doesn't need them so much.

I don't like them, myself, because I hate the constant mid-inning pitching changes in modern baseball.

Brian26
12-25-2004, 10:50 AM
Kelly is what is sometimes called a LOOGy, a Lefty One Out guy. Ozzie, to his credit, doesn't much believe in LOOGys, and because he doesn't go get his starter in the fifth inning, he doesn't need them so much.

I don't like them, myself, because I hate the constant mid-inning pitching changes in modern baseball.
It's really crazy to justify carrying a guy on a 25-man roster just to play that role. Although you can get away with it somewhat in the AL. In the NL, it's hard to justify carrying 12 pitchers when it's so much better to have that extra guy on the bench for pinch hitting and double switches.

johnny_mostil
12-25-2004, 01:56 PM
It's really crazy to justify carrying a guy on a 25-man roster just to play that role. Although you can get away with it somewhat in the AL. In the NL, it's hard to justify carrying 12 pitchers when it's so much better to have that extra guy on the bench for pinch hitting and double switches.Except that you need more pitchers because you have to pinch hit for them... catch 22. I think it's tough to justify carrying any pitcher for less than 50 innings a season.

DaleJRFan
12-25-2004, 08:54 PM
Dodgers.
smart move for LA considering that he struck out Barry "roidhead" Bonds in SP a few years back on 3 pitches (as I recall). Best of luck to the beloved Kelly W.

batmanZoSo
12-25-2004, 09:59 PM
Are we absolutely done with moves?

Starting Rotation:
1- Buehrle
2- Garcia
3- Hernandez
4- Contreras
5- Garland

Bullpen
6- Closer- Shingo
7- Lefty Setup- Marte
8- Righty Setup- Hermanson
9- Lefty Middle- Cotts
10- Righty Middle- Politte
11- Righty Long- Adkins
12- Vizcaino

That filled up quickly, and there's no room for Grilli, Diaz or Munoz.
I'd put Vizcaino a little higher. Definitely above Cotts, Politte and Adkins. He's at least a bona fide big leaguer who can get people out consistently. Most cub fans I know who've seen Vizcaino pitch a lot because of Brewer/cub games say we got a pretty good setup man type in him. For whatever that's worth. Just looking at his stats one can reasonably assume he's better than a lot of the rookie garbage throwers we put out there last year.

guillen4life13
12-25-2004, 11:50 PM
^^remember the AL addition to that ERA. It means something.

Jjav829
12-26-2004, 12:03 AM
^^remember the AL addition to that ERA. It means something.It's probably not as drastic a difference for relievers. Most late inning relievers, such as Vizcaino, will be coming in the game for big situations. That means that they'll be facing pinch-hitters rather than the pitcher.

I'd say there's a strong case that Vizcaino should be the main right-handed setup man. It's just nice to have options. Ozzie can play the hot hand (or arm, really). If Hermanson has been pitching well of late, he can pitch the later innings. Likewise for Vizcaino or Politte. And if we do run into a few games where Hermanson pitches an inning or more, Vizcaino is a fine backup option. Depth is nice. :cool:

mdep524
12-26-2004, 10:48 AM
Are we absolutely done with moves?

Starting Rotation:
1- Buehrle
2- Garcia
3- Hernandez
4- Contreras
5- Garland

Bullpen
6- Closer- Shingo
7- Lefty Setup- Marte
8- Righty Setup- Hermanson
9- Lefty Middle- Cotts
10- Righty Middle- Politte
11- Righty Long- Adkins
12- Vizcaino

That filled up quickly, and there's no room for Grilli, Diaz or Munoz.Are we done with the pitching staff? I hope not! The bullpen has some impressive depth, but the starting rotation has a huge black hole where the number 3 pitcher should be. Hernandez is good, but unlikely to log many innings or work injury-free for the whole year, so we can expect him to miss some time. Garland is OK, but inconsistent and apathetic-looking at times. Contreras is an absolute waste of $6 million- he's the real hole on this staff.

A Javier Vazquez would look pretty nice in there, really solidifying the staff as a whole. Unfortunately, besides Vazquez and Odalis Perez (whom KW seems to be ignoring for some reason) the Sox missed the boat on any other available starters good enough to be counted on at the top of the rotation.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 10:54 AM
smart move for LA considering that he struck out Barry "roidhead" Bonds in SP a few years back on 3 pitches (as I recall). Best of luck to the beloved Kelly W.Yeah, I can see how Wunsch could just destroy a lefty like Bonds.

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 11:14 AM
Are we done with the pitching staff? I hope not! The bullpen has some impressive depth, but the starting rotation has a huge black hole where the number 3 pitcher should be. Hernandez is good, but unlikely to log many innings or work injury-free for the whole year, so we can expect him to miss some time. Garland is OK, but inconsistent and apathetic-looking at times. Contreras is an absolute waste of $6 million- he's the real hole on this staff.

A Javier Vazquez would look pretty nice in there, really solidifying the staff as a whole. Unfortunately, besides Vazquez and Odalis Perez (whom KW seems to be ignoring for some reason) the Sox missed the boat on any other available starters good enough to be counted on at the top of the rotation.
I'm going out on a limb and saying you'll be eating your words. Pitching is brutally inconsistent for all but a few rare, expensive pitchers. I usually hate KW's moves, but the pitching staff he's assembled has a very high ceiling. Also:

Forget a pitcher's injury history elsewhere, Schneider is a magician. It's not like the Sox didn't check El Duque out before signing him. Besides, even if he gives us 15 starts, that's still 15 games not started by Jason Grilli.
Look at Contreras' game log for last year. He took a couple for the team where he should have been pulled earlier but the bullpen was worn out from the fourth and fifth starters getting pounded during Garcia's short minor injury. You can't just sigh and look at his ERA. That, and when he's healthy, he's not adequate, he's dominant.
Contreras is the guy most likely to walk people, and he's still got nearly a 2-1 K/W ratio. The other four have low walk rates. Don't underestimate that.
None of the other pitchers on the market are really locks. Martinez is in decline but got a massive contract. Pavano's record over the last three years is less impressive that Jon Garland's. Don't get me started on Jaret Wright. KW has assembled five legitimate starters, the only real question mark is a man who won 80% of his starts last season and would have even without significant run support because his ERA through 12 starts was in the low 2's.

Look at what they can do -- strike people out, and win games. Don't worry about the three-times-a-year implosions so much, all they do is warp statistics.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 11:42 AM
Hernandez is good, but unlikely to log many innings or work injury-free for the whole year, so we can expect him to miss some time. Garland is OK, but inconsistent and apathetic-looking at times. Contreras is an absolute waste of $6 million- he's the real hole on this staff.
El Duque and Contreras are almost from the same mold.

mdep524
12-26-2004, 02:07 PM
I'm going out on a limb and saying you'll be eating your words. Pitching is brutally inconsistent for all but a few rare, expensive pitchers. I usually hate KW's moves, but the pitching staff he's assembled has a very high ceiling. Also:

Forget a pitcher's injury history elsewhere, Schneider is a magician. It's not like the Sox didn't check El Duque out before signing him. Besides, even if he gives us 15 starts, that's still 15 games not started by Jason Grilli.
Look at Contreras' game log for last year. He took a couple for the team where he should have been pulled earlier but the bullpen was worn out from the fourth and fifth starters getting pounded during Garcia's short minor injury. You can't just sigh and look at his ERA. That, and when he's healthy, he's not adequate, he's dominant.
Contreras is the guy most likely to walk people, and he's still got nearly a 2-1 K/W ratio. The other four have low walk rates. Don't underestimate that.
None of the other pitchers on the market are really locks. Martinez is in decline but got a massive contract. Pavano's record over the last three years is less impressive that Jon Garland's. Don't get me started on Jaret Wright. KW has assembled five legitimate starters, the only real question mark is a man who won 80% of his starts last season and would have even without significant run support because his ERA through 12 starts was in the low 2's.

Look at what they can do -- strike people out, and win games. Don't worry about the three-times-a-year implosions so much, all they do is warp statistics.
I agree with you on a lot of this- our rotation is not a weakness, El Duque will be solid when he pitches, the available FAs were risky and overpriced. I guess I'm still bitter Hudson and Mulder were given away for peanuts and the Sox weren't involved. (It's even more frustrating to hear Billy Beane refused to deal with AL teams).

About Contreras- I hope I'm wrong. I'll gladly eat my words if he performs well. But I see a guy with no MLB track record (unlike El Duque), an expensive contract and no intelligence or confidence, and even the pitching-starved Yankees gave up on. Those aren't good signs.

In general I'd rather have a guy like Jamie Moyer, who's savvy, intelligent and confident with less "pure talent" than a guy like Contreras, who has no intangibles going for him but has loads of talent.

mdep524
12-26-2004, 02:08 PM
El Duque and Contreras are almost from the same mold.
El Duque has a proven MLB track record, a knack for picking up his game in big situations, and the toughness and confidence to pitch in New York. Contreras has none of those things, so I wouldn't say they're from the same mold at all.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 02:13 PM
I would like El Duque as our #3 pitcher and Contreras as our #4 or #5 but I know that Contreras has more durablilty than El Duque.

veeter
12-26-2004, 03:47 PM
Garcia should get the ball opening day and be the #1. Also they better have a backup plan at closer. I know both these things will get me ripped, but its just my opinion. Maybe give buerhle the ball since he has been here longer, but garcia is the better pitcher
I don't want to rip any fellow Sox fan but Garcia, in my opinion, is not the better pitcher. Their winning percentages are about equal. Buerhle slightly better in era. Freddy has better stuff but as far as "pitching" Buerhle may be in the top 8- 10 in baseball based on how he succeeds without the overpowering stuff. But hey I love both of them. As far as Shingo what it the reluctance for him to convince people he's for real. He allowed less hits plus walks than innings pitched. He seemed cool under pressure. I know the extreme heat is in vogue but I look at results. He's also experienced, albeit in Japan but he's a vet.

Jabroni
12-26-2004, 03:57 PM
I don't want to rip any fellow Sox fan but Garcia, in my opinion, is not the better pitcher. Their winning percentages are about equal. Buerhle slightly better in era. Freddy has better stuff but as far as "pitching" Buerhle may be in the top 8- 10 in baseball based on how he succeeds without the overpowering stuff. But hey I love both of them. As far as Shingo what it the reluctance for him to convince people he's for real. He allowed less hits plus walks than innings pitched. He seemed cool under pressure. I know the extreme heat is in vogue but I look at results. He's also experienced, albeit in Japan but he's a vet.Agreed. Here's another reason Buehrle is the man...

Phil Rogers just had a column in the Sunday Cubune that said that Buehrle pitched the most innings in baseball last year. He also has pitched the most innings over the past 4 years of any pitcher in the MLB. He doesn't get any credit because he's not a flamethrower like Kerry Wood. I'd rather have Buehrle than a guy like Wood who's injured every damn year. :rolleyes: One could even argue that Buehrle's career numbers are more impressive than Wood's.

Brian26
12-26-2004, 04:14 PM
so I wouldn't say they're from the same mold at all.
In that context, they are not of the same mold. In other contexts, they are definitely of the same mold. I should have clarified.

In terms of former right-handed Yankee pitchers who are refugees from the Carribean with uncertain ages and huge upside potential with possibly questionable arms, they are somewhat similar.

johnny_mostil
12-26-2004, 04:44 PM
In terms of former right-handed Yankee pitchers who are refugees from the Carribean with uncertain ages and huge upside potential with possibly questionable arms, they are somewhat similar.There are no questions about Contreras' arm. He's healthy as a horse, and he has excellent stuff. The question about Contreras is his brain.

There are no questions about El Duque's brain, he's one of the smartest pitchers in history. The question about Hernandez is his arm.

If El Duque could transfer one-fifth of his wiliness to Contreras he'd be Marichal.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-26-2004, 04:47 PM
I really would be interested to learn if the Sox have any thoughts about using El Duque as a closer. earlier someone in this thread mentioned Contreras, but I'm intrigued with the possibility of using El Duque. It extended Smoltz's career. I realize it opens up the dreaded five spot again, but Hermanson can start, and it allows a Diaz or Cotts an opportunity to get some innings. I don't think Shingo's schickt plays for another year.