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View Full Version : El Duque to the Sox???? (hot speculation thread)


Viva Medias B's
12-21-2004, 11:18 PM
...the White Sox could sign Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez as early as tomorrow. Provided he passes a physicial, he could be signed to a two-year, incentive-laden contract for $8M to $12M.

CubKilla
12-21-2004, 11:20 PM
Wait'll another team adds a 3rd year and an extra million :rolleyes:

soltrain21
12-21-2004, 11:20 PM
Not a bad number 5.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:21 PM
El Duque at 2-years, $8 million... :supernana:

El Duque at 2-years, $12 million...

:chunks

zach074
12-21-2004, 11:22 PM
Hes better than grillie.:)

SomebodyToldMe
12-21-2004, 11:25 PM
If this happens and the Vazquez trade happens, our rotation looks like a bunch of Yankee rejects.

Not that I'm complaining though. I wouldn't mind either. It actually looks like a damn good rotation.

RKMeibalane
12-21-2004, 11:25 PM
Hes better than grillie.:)
I may be wrong on this, but that signature looks to be a few sizes too large.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:26 PM
It sounds like this is going to happen. I'm reading about it on both White Sox and Yankees message boards.

GOOD LORD, WE MAY HAVE A DECENT 5TH STARTER.

IT'S A FESTIVUS MIRACLE!!!
:) :supernana: :)

WSox8404
12-21-2004, 11:27 PM
El Duque at 2-years, $8 million... :supernana:

El Duque at 2-years, $12 million...

:chunks
Yep I agree. I would much rather have our revolving door keep on revolving. We would get much better production.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:28 PM
If this happens and the Vazquez trade happens, our rotation looks like a bunch of Yankee rejects.

Not that I'm complaining though. I wouldn't mind either. It actually looks like a damn good rotation.If we sign El Duque, I would think the Vazquez trade talks would be over but who knows?

To expand on Viva Medias B's original post, I'm hearing it's a 2-year, $8 million contract that can reach $12 million if El Duque earns all of the incentives. An incentive-laden contract -- I think JR just cracked a smile.

:reinsy
"Don't pitch too many innings El Duque. You don't want to get injured!"

Viva Medias B's
12-21-2004, 11:29 PM
If we sign El Duque, I would think the Vazquez trade talks would be over but who knows?
Would we really need Vaz if we sign El Duque?

MRKARNO
12-21-2004, 11:31 PM
I think we could have gotten him for cheaper (assuming his numbers are right), but this is absolutely the right move if they felt that Odalis was realistically out of their reach. 5 starters? WOOHOO!!!! I wouldnt be too upset about bringing El Duque back to the White Sox (granted the inital stay was a few minutes before Colon came to town)

OEO Magglio
12-21-2004, 11:33 PM
If El Duque is healthy he's a damn good pitcher. Of course it'll be interesting to see if he stays healthy. But we have 5 starters now, how about that. :smile: We should still have money to go fill other needs too, on this market a healthy el duque for 4 mill is an absolute steal.

Win1ForMe
12-21-2004, 11:35 PM
...the White Sox could sign Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez as early as tomorrow. Provided he passes a physicial, he could be signed to a two-year, incentive-laden contract for $8M to $12M.That's not a very good way to spend $8M. Hernandez was finished last year after 85 IP. He's a nice 5th starter, I guess, provided you don't have Garland at the #4. Otherwise, I'm not really a fan of this deal.

Schoenweiss would have been much better for his arbitration price.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:35 PM
Would we really need Vaz if we sign El Duque?Hey Viva Medias B's, can you change the title of this thread to read...

"Per Offman, El Duque close to signing with Sox"

That way people will see it. :wink:

Viva Medias B's
12-21-2004, 11:35 PM
El Duque's MLB.com profile (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=133340).

2004 - 8-2, 3.30
2003 - DNP
2002 - 8-5, 3.64
2001 - 4-7, 4.85

Career - 61-40, 3.96

Viva Medias B's
12-21-2004, 11:37 PM
Hey Viva Medias B's, can you change the title of this thread to read...

"Per Offman, El Duque close to signing with Sox"

That way people will see it. :wink:
"Per George Ofman..." has been a classic thread title that attacts users to the thread like fish to water.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:38 PM
That's not a very good way to spend $8M. Hernandez was finished last year after 85 IP. He's a nice 5th starter, I guess, provided you don't have Garland at the #4. Otherwise, I'm not really a fan of this deal.

Schoenweiss would have been much better for his arbitration price.Wasn't he the Yankees best starting pitcher for awhile last season? His numbers were pretty damn good...

Orlando Hernandez (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=133340)
84.2 IP
8 Wins
2 Losses
3.30 ERA
84 SO
36 BB
9 HR

Wow, only 9 home runs allowed in 84.2 innings pitched. I just hope El Duque is closer to 35 instead of 50 years old. :(: I guarantee that some of the incentives are based on how many innings he pitches in the next 2 years.

Kogs35
12-21-2004, 11:39 PM
i think he could do well here. remeber that the yanks pitching coach just ruins players and they end up getting traded and they are better off. i think its a good pickup if they do not over pay.

Troupis
12-21-2004, 11:40 PM
The guy has got great all-star stuff when he's on and a career ERA under 4.00. If JR is buying I'll drink it up.

BUT...

Only in 2 of his 6 seasons has he pitched a full year of games. The Yanks don't want him because of his health.

???
Did this rumor start before or after the Big Unit deal was called off?
???

Win1ForMe
12-21-2004, 11:41 PM
Wasn't he the Yankees best starting pitcher for awhile last season? His numbers were pretty damn good...

Orlando Hernandez (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=133340)
8 Wins
2 Losses
3.30 ERA
84 SO
36 BB
I think the key word there is "awhile" --- I'd much rather it be for the entire season. The guys like 50 years old, I'm not sure how he even passes a physical.

soltrain21
12-21-2004, 11:41 PM
???
Did this rumor start before or after the Big Unit deal was called off?
???

I don't think that really matters. The Yankees have like 8 starters right now.

jabrch
12-21-2004, 11:42 PM
El Duque at 2-years, $8 million... :supernana:

El Duque at 2-years, $12 million...

:chunks


The diff of 2mm per year of JRs money is that big to you? Anyone we sign as a legit starter will make me happy. :supernana:

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:43 PM
The guy has got great all-star stuff when he's on and a career ERA under 4.00. If JR is buying I'll drink it up.

BUT...

Only in 2 of his 6 seasons has he pitched a full year of games. The Yanks don't want him because of his health.

???
Did this rumor start before or after the Big Unit deal was called off?
???Nope, El Duque rejected the Yankees' arbitration offer...

"El Duque, Sierra reject arbitration"
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/nyy/news/nyy_news.jsp?ymd=20041220&content_id=924249&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp

The Yankees wanted to keep him which is definately a good sign. :thumbsup:

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:43 PM
The diff of 2mm per year of JRs money is that big to you? Anyone we sign as a legit starter will make me happy. :supernana:Good point. :thumbsup:

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:45 PM
I think the key word there is "awhile" --- I'd much rather it be for the entire season. The guys like 50 years old, I'm not sure how he even passes a physical.Let's just pray that he really is only 35 years old. :wink: :?:

MRKARNO
12-21-2004, 11:45 PM
If the incentives are all health based, it's not a good deal IMO, but if they are performance based partially it will be good. He is worth 4 mil, maybe 5, 6 is pushing it unless he performs very well. He's an extreme fly ball pitcher which will hurt his cause, but that doesnt mean he still can't post a 4.3-4.6 ERA, which would be a HUGE upgrade over Grilli/etc. It would sincerely be a 5 game upgrade at least.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:46 PM
Don't forget that this should leave us some money to make one last signing -- Eckstein or Cora. Hopefully, it's Eckstein.

El Duque is definately a high risk / high reward signing. If he stays healthy, he can put up #3 starting pitcher numbers. If he can't, well, you know the rest...

Rocklive99
12-21-2004, 11:47 PM
I have a bad memory, but I slightly remember him starting for the Yanks at midseason, having a stretch as one of the best SP in the league, then going through a dead arm period, and then I think getting out of it towards the end of the year. His 04 Salary was $500,000 :o: I think it was a minor league deal

Here is the 03 Scouting Report/04 Season Outlook from ESPN.com (year old)

2003 Season
The Expos acquired Orlando Hernandez from the Yankees as part of the Bartolo Colon deal last winter. However, a tear in both the muscle and the rotator cuff in Hernandez' pitching shoulder sidelined him early in the spring. He spent the first month and a half of 2003 trying to rehab back into playing shape, but he finally decided in May that surgery was the only option. He felt he could return in September, but doctors thought otherwise.

Pitching repertoire - fastball, curve, slider and change-doesn't feature any outstanding pitches, but he is able to throw them all for strikes with so many different arm angles that it looks like he has about 20 pitches from which to choose. He's an agile fielder, but because of his high leg kick, he struggles to slow the running game.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:49 PM
I have a bad memory, but I slightly remember him starting for the Yanks at midseason, having a stretch as one of the best SP in the league, then going through a dead arm period, and then I think getting out of it towards the end of the year. His 04 Salary was $500,000 :o: I think it was a minor league deal

Here is the 03 Scouting Report/04 Season Outlook from ESPN.com (year old)

You are correct. He was the Yankees best starting pitcher for a few stretches last season.

By the way, Ben Davis has his work cut out for him. Now we have three Spanish-speaking starting pitchers for him to practice his Spanish with. :tongue: Also, this gives Contreras a friend from his old team. Maybe that will help them both succeed next season.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 11:55 PM
I believe Orlando Hernandez is a "Type B" free agent. The Yankees offered him arbitration so I think they get our 2nd Round draft pick.

HomeFish
12-22-2004, 12:02 AM
I remember el Duque being my favorite pitcher back when I first started following baseball in the late 90's. Him coming to the White Sox would have high nostalgia value for me, even if he is way past his prime.

Whatever his faults, he's better than Grilli, and that's all that matters.

popilius
12-22-2004, 12:03 AM
Let's just pray that he really is only 35 years old. :wink: :?:
According to "baseball-reference.com," El Duque was 38 last year. He'll be a good addition to the staff- but durability is a key.

I might rather have the much younger Wade Miller, who incidentally is the #1 similar picther to El Duque. Scroll to the very bottom left-hand corner of the page, when you search for Orlando Hernandez at
www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com)

(Buerhle's on the list, too).



Wade Miller (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/millewa04.shtml) (980)
Roy Halladay (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hallaro01.shtml) (967)
Jim Weaver (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/weaveji01.shtml) (961)
C.C. Sabathia (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sabatc.01.shtml) (960)
Charlie Lea (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leach01.shtml) (952)
Brad Penny (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pennybr01.shtml) (951)
Jarrod Washburn (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/washbja01.shtml) (948)
Mark Buehrle (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buehrma01.shtml) (947)
Steve Sundra (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sundrst01.shtml) (947)
Eric King (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kinger01.shtml) (947)

A. Cavatica
12-22-2004, 12:10 AM
Would we really need Vaz if we sign El Duque?
I'd still take the chance to upgrade from Garland to Vazquez if I could (meaning if the Yanks would eat some of that contract and I didn't have to surrender too much additional talent). A rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Vazquez, Hernandez, and Contreras would be super.

Let's get rid of that Buehrle fella so Ozzie can field an all-Spanish-speaking rotation. Loaiza?

MRKARNO
12-22-2004, 12:10 AM
According to "baseball-reference.com," El Duque was 38 last year. He'll be a good addition to the staff- but durability is a key.

I might rather have the much younger Wade Miller, who incidentally is the #1 similar picther to El Duque. Scroll to the very bottom left-hand corner of the page, when you search for Orlando Hernandez at
www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com)

(Buerhle's on the list, too).




Wade Miller (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/millewa04.shtml) (980)
Roy Halladay (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hallaro01.shtml) (967)
Jim Weaver (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/weaveji01.shtml) (961)
C.C. Sabathia (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sabatc.01.shtml) (960)
Charlie Lea (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leach01.shtml) (952)
Brad Penny (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pennybr01.shtml) (951)
Jarrod Washburn (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/washbja01.shtml) (948)
Mark Buehrle (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buehrma01.shtml) (947)
Steve Sundra (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sundrst01.shtml) (947)
Eric King (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kinger01.shtml) (947)

I like a lot of the names on that list, but most of those guys are way younger than El Duque. The guys on list of players similar through age 38 isnt quite as promising (though I'm not sure that's how old he is)

MRKARNO
12-22-2004, 12:11 AM
I'd still take the chance to upgrade from Garland to Vazquez if I could (meaning if the Yanks would eat some of that contract and I didn't have to surrender too much additional talent). A rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Vazquez, Hernandez, and Contreras would be super.

Let's get rid of that Buehrle fella so Ozzie can field an all-Spanish-speaking rotation. Loaiza?
Then all we'd need is Brown and Mussina.....

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 12:11 AM
I'd still take the chance to upgrade from Garland to Vazquez if I could (meaning if the Yanks would eat some of that contract and I didn't have to surrender too much additional talent). A rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Vazquez, Hernandez, and Contreras would be super.

Let's get rid of that Buehrle fella so Ozzie can field an all-Spanish-speaking rotation. Loaiza?I would too. As long as it's only Garland + prospect(s) for Vazquez + cash to help them in a 3-way trade for Randy Johnson. This rotation is a wet dream...

Buehrle
Garcia
Vazquez
Contreras
El Duque

A. Cavatica
12-22-2004, 12:16 AM
Gotta disagree with you on whether Contreras would be the #4 in that rotation. He's not as good or as consistent as Hernandez, and if Contreras were the #5 then we could use him in relief when the #5 misses a turn.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 12:19 AM
Gotta disagree with you on whether Contreras would be the #4 in that rotation. He's not as good or as consistent as Hernandez, and if Contreras were the #5 then we could use him in relief when the #5 misses a turn.Agreed. If El Duque pitches the entire season, he would be the #4.

MeanFish
12-22-2004, 12:26 AM
Agreed. If El Duque pitches the entire season, he would be the #4.
Is that really a chance you want to take with a guy who may have durability issues? It seems to me that putting him in the 5-hole will give him a better chance of making it a whole season and avoiding dead-arm periods.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 12:27 AM
Is that really a chance you want to take with a guy who may have durability issues? It seems to me that putting him in the 5-hole will give him a better chance of making it a whole season and avoiding dead-arm periods.Good point. Contreras seems like he can handle a load of innings but he had better lower that ERA. :?:

oeo
12-22-2004, 01:00 AM
I would too. As long as it's only Garland + prospect(s) for Vazquez + cash to help them in a 3-way trade for Randy Johnson. This rotation is a wet dream...

Buehrle
Garcia
Vazquez
Contreras
El Duque
Just a question...but this is 3/5 of the Yankees staff last year that did not succeed, wouldn't you be just a wee-bit worried?

SomebodyToldMe
12-22-2004, 01:02 AM
Just a question...but this is 3/5 of the Yankees staff last year that did not succeed, wouldn't you be just a wee-bit worried?
Hence my "Yankee Rejects" post.

But I wouldn't mind Vazquez. And come on, those Yanks have EXTREMELY high standards for their players. They seem to get rid of someone for anything.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 01:02 AM
Just a question...but this is 3/5 of the Yankees staff last year that did not succeed, wouldn't you be just a wee-bit worried?Not really. I don't think that Mel Stottlemyre is a good pitching coach. And just for fun...

http://img149.exs.cx/img149/8297/elduque6cg.jpg

Gee, I hope I don't jinx it.

Tragg
12-22-2004, 01:04 AM
I would too. As long as it's only Garland + prospect(s) for Vazquez + cash to help them in a 3-way trade for Randy Johnson. This rotation is a wet dream...

Buehrle
Garcia
Vazquez
Contreras
El DuqueIsn't El Duque pretty much finished? Another on-the cheap move, except that he offers premium money to El D, but lowballs the quality player in Clement, in typical Kenny Williams fashion. Load the team up with every not too expensive mediocrity we can get

And in no way, shape or form should the Sox assist the Yankees in getting Randy Johnson.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 01:07 AM
Isn't El Duque pretty much finished? Another on-the cheap williams move

And in no way, shape or form should the Sox assist the Yankees in getting Randy Johnson.How is paying a 5th starter $8 million (possibly $12 million with incentives) for 2 years an on-the-cheap signing? Do you think most 5th starters make $4 - $6 million dollars? :?:

CWSGuy406
12-22-2004, 01:08 AM
Well, guys, for the first time in over three years, we have five -- yes, five, capable starting pitchers. With an improved bullpen, too. If we're getting El Duque for four million, with incentives (performance, I assume) -- that's a nice deal. We won't need El Duque to be an innings eater, we should get a lot of innings out of Garland, Buehrle, and Garcia -- and I assume that Contreras should pitch right around 180 innings as well.

Just gotta keep El Duque healthy, but I really like this pitching staff right now. Our bullpen will be pretty good next season (Adding Hermanson, who should be better as a reliever, as well as Vizcaino, makes our bullpen very good), and our pitching staff will be much better.

Let's just hope Cleveland is able to land Eric Milton, so when he comes to the Cell, we'll see lots and lots of fireworks. :smile:

No one has really improved this offseason, too, except for the Tigers.

Mercy -- I hope this is true.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 01:39 AM
Here's a scouting report on "El Duque" from the Yankees message board...

*Fastball at 91 mph.

*Curve at mutiple speeds between 60 - 80 mph.

*Changeup at 75 - 80 mph.

*Slider at 85 - 88 mph.

*Fastball sets up all other pitches. Without it he is in trouble.

*Best pitch is curveball.

*Challenges hitters.

*Loves "going up the ladder" with fastball on hitters.

*Excellent command of all his pitches and all speeds.

*Adept at spotting the fastball for first pitch strikes.

*After getting ahead, goes deep in the count (think Al Leiter) trying to get hitters to chase.

*Excellent with runners on base. Know how to pitch out of jams.

*Changes the look and arm angle to the batters with successive at bats. Has about 15 different arm angles.

*Chess player in a game where most hitters are using a checker board. Very smart.

*Not difficult to run on but despite high leg kick, he gets rid of the ball quickly.

*Able to survive later innings on guile.

popilius
12-22-2004, 01:43 AM
According to the last point on the list in Jabroni's last post, El Duque is "*Able to survive later innings on guile."

-That must be the part where he tears his arm up.

:gulp:

SomebodyToldMe
12-22-2004, 02:02 AM
According to the last point on the list in Jabroni's last post, El Duque is "*Able to survive later innings on guile."
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/deputy_of_reno/guile.jpg

Colonel Guile?

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:07 AM
Colonel Guile?Street Fighter 2 reference, lol. :tongue:

MeanFish
12-22-2004, 02:10 AM
Street Fighter 2 reference, lol. :tongue:
If El Duque pulls off a sonic boom with one of his pitches, I'll be more than satisfied. The two second delay while pressing back might not be good for holding runners, but I'm sure the end result will be worth it :cool:

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:13 AM
If El Duque pulls off a sonic boom with one of his pitches, I'll be more than satisfied. The two second delay while pressing back might not be good for holding runners, but I'm sure the end result will be worth it :cool:Charge moves made SFII horrible. They sucked. :cool:

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-22-2004, 02:20 AM
omg! i wake up to this! Great news! Having el duque on the pitching staff will make this white sox team one of the best in years since we'll finally have a complete staff!

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:30 AM
Looks like there was alot of interest in El Duque...

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&leaguenum=&id=6019
Latest News Dec. 16, 2004 - 4:11 am et

The Braves, Red Sox and Dodgers are showing interest in Orlando Hernandez, who is seeking a two-year deal.
El Duque wants to be assured of a rotation spot, and the Yankees don't seem willing to do that. He might end up getting a David Wells-type deal.

Source: New York Post (http://newyorkpost.com/sports/yankees/21419.htm)

popilius
12-22-2004, 02:32 AM
Looks like there was alot of interest in El Duque...

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&leaguenum=&id=6019

I would not be ONE BIT surprised if those teams sign him over the next few days. . .

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:36 AM
I would not be ONE BIT surprised if those teams sign him over the next few days. . .Maybe he wants to come to the White Sox so he can reunite with his buddy Contreras.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:38 AM
2-years, $8 million (up to $12 million with incentives) is a good deal for El Duque.

In comparison, Boston signed David Wells to a 2-year deal worth $8 million (up to $18 million with incentives).

OEO Magglio
12-22-2004, 02:49 AM
Looks like this thing might actually get done.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041221soxelduque,1,4448767.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:53 AM
Looks like this thing might actually get done.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041221soxelduque,1,4448767.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
Nice link! :bandance:

But check this out...
Sources said the Sox had offered a guaranteed two-year contract heavily laden with incentives, believed to be worth as much as $4 million, although the deal had not been finalized.Does he mean $4 million per year or $4 million total for the 2 years ($2 million per year)? :?:

This is interesting as well...
With the expected acquisition, the Sox apparently have filled their rotation for next season, though they still have money for a big-name pitcher if they so desire. Among those mentioned is another Yankee, Vazquez, who had been part of the three-team trade with Arizona and Los Angeles that fell through Tuesday night. Most likely, Hernandez will become the Sox's fifth starter behind Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, Contreras and Jon Garland.We will still have money to sign Eckstein or Cora (hopefully Eckstein, IMO).

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 03:15 AM
The New York Post is reporting 'El Duque' to the White Sox as well...

http://newyorkpost.com/sports/yankees/36991.htm
Orlando Hernandez, who declined arbitration from the Yankees, isn't a strong option since he is close to signing a two-year deal with the White Sox.

OEO Magglio
12-22-2004, 03:27 AM
Nice link! :bandance:

But check this out...
Does he mean $4 million per year or $4 million total for the 2 years ($2 million per year)? :?:

This is interesting as well...
We will still have money to sign Eckstein or Cora (hopefully Eckstein, IMO).
I'd love to have either Cora or Eck but I'm pretty sure it's going to be Alex.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 03:32 AM
I'd love to have either Cora or Eck but I'm pretty sure it's going to be Alex.Agreed, unfortunately. :(: I think the Cardinals will be jumping to overpay Eckstein. They need a SS badly after losing out on Renteria, Polanco, and Cabrera. The only SS currently on their roster is Hector Luna. :?:

delben91
12-22-2004, 05:33 AM
Story (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041221soxelduque,1,4448767.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)

Fredsox
12-22-2004, 05:46 AM
Nice link! :bandance:

But check this out...
Does he mean $4 million per year or $4 million total for the 2 years ($2 million per year)? :?:

This is interesting as well...
We will still have money to sign Eckstein or Cora (hopefully Eckstein, IMO).
I read that as a total contract value of $4 million for 2 years. That sounds like a typical White Sox gamble on a cast-off. A lot of times it works for them (Kirk McKaskill, Cal Eldred) but some times is doesn't. I rate this move as very high-risk based on the guy's physical condition and age, but the risk is reduced as he'd be placed in the 5-hole.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-22-2004, 05:48 AM
I haven't read the article, but I just wonder if he's a fourth starter or a candidate to compete agsinst Shigo for closer?

munchman33
12-22-2004, 06:12 AM
Starter.

Well, this guy has been plagued by injuries the last few years. But when he was healthy, we was dominant. He saved the Yankees season last year.

At 2 years, $4 million, this guy could end up being the free agent bargain of the season. And he makes Garland expendable in case there's a chance for Vazquez. I like it.

beck72
12-22-2004, 06:26 AM
Starter.

Well, this guy has been plagued by injuries the last few years. But when he was healthy, we was dominant. He saved the Yankees season last year.

At 2 years, $4 million, this guy could end up being the free agent bargain of the season. And he makes Garland expendable in case there's a chance for Vazquez. I like it.
I agree that it could make Garland expendable. The price tag on Vazquez will likely go down further. Esp. as LA is trying to make Vazquez the fall guy for why the RJ deal didn't happen. LA was getting screwed, everyone knew it, so they put the blame on Vaz. The LA papers are pushing it that way. The Yanks will probably deal only w/ AZ for RJ, and then the Sox would have to deal w/ AZ if the price was right for Vaz.

Banix12
12-22-2004, 06:35 AM
He showed last year he still has something to offer. 2 year 4 mil is pretty reasonable. As a fifth you can rest him from time to time by skipping his rotation turn or once and awhile give a spot start to a guy like hermanson to keep him fresh and healthy. I like it, It's a gamble but it could work out very well.

Mohoney
12-22-2004, 07:40 AM
This guy is 9-3 with a 2.56 ERA in his postseason career.

I like this move a lot.

DaveIsHere
12-22-2004, 07:46 AM
It was also confirmed on AM1000 and 670 this morning, he is suppose come into town to take a physical today. I think it is an awesome signing, when he is on, he is Lights out.

duke of dorwood
12-22-2004, 07:47 AM
This guy is 9-3 with a 2.56 ERA in his postseason career.

I like this move a lot.
Post season? What's that?

Jjav829
12-22-2004, 07:47 AM
Ummm, excuse me for not jumping with joy. This is a nice move if it clears the way for Garland to be traded in a trade for Vazquez. Otherwise, we're still missing a #3 starter. But hey, at least we have two #5 starters. :rolleyes:

Troupis
12-22-2004, 07:51 AM
Agreed, unfortunately. :(: I think the Cardinals will be jumping to overpay Eckstein. They need a SS badly after losing out on Renteria, Polanco, and Cabrera. The only SS currently on their roster is Hector Luna. :?:
If anybody is going to get Eckstein other than the Sox I'm glad it's the Cardinals. Mulder and him would be nice Cub bashing equipment.

dickallen15
12-22-2004, 08:24 AM
I agree that it could make Garland expendable. The price tag on Vazquez will likely go down further. Esp. as LA is trying to make Vazquez the fall guy for why the RJ deal didn't happen. LA was getting screwed, everyone knew it, so they put the blame on Vaz. The LA papers are pushing it that way. The Yanks will probably deal only w/ AZ for RJ, and then the Sox would have to deal w/ AZ if the price was right for Vaz.
Could you imagine the scrutiny Vazquez would be under if he were to remain in NY, and was considered the reason Johnson wasn't there? I still think Johnson will wind up with the Yankees, and Vazquez will be going somewhere else.

rwcescato
12-22-2004, 08:55 AM
If we sign El Duque, I would think the Vazquez trade talks would be over but who knows?

To expand on Viva Medias B's original post, I'm hearing it's a 2-year, $8 million contract that can reach $12 million if El Duque earns all of the incentives. An incentive-laden contract -- I think JR just cracked a smile.

:reinsy
"Don't pitch too many innings El Duque. You don't want to get injured!"
This would be a qualityn 5th starter. According to the trib we would also have money left to spend. Maybe a 2nd baseman or ss is also in our future. I would like to see Eckstein.
Rich:supernana:

Mickster
12-22-2004, 08:59 AM
The Yanks will probably deal only w/ AZ for RJ, and then the Sox would have to deal w/ AZ if the price was right for Vaz.
The Yanks don't have enough to get a deal done for RJ alone and that is why a third team is always involved. If NY and AZ could have gotten a deal done alone, it would have been done a month ago.

Mickster
12-22-2004, 09:00 AM
Ummm, excuse me for not jumping with joy. This is a nice move if it clears the way for Garland to be traded in a trade for Vazquez. Otherwise, we're still missing a #3 starter. But hey, at least we have two #5 starters. :rolleyes:
2 #5's is still better than 1 with hole in the bottom of the rotation.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-22-2004, 09:10 AM
2 #5's is still better than 1 with hole in the bottom of the rotation. You can never have enough pitching. The "extra" #5 goes into the bullpen as long reliever and spot starter. When somebody gets hurt or underperforms (a 100% certainty these days), the "extra" #5 serves as a nice insurance policy.

Who else remembers Kirk McCaskill from the early-90's? He was acquired as a starter from California, but he wasn't very good as a starter. He proved himself most valuable coming out of the bullpen. IIRC, we won a couple a division titles with his help too...
:cool:

Iwritecode
12-22-2004, 09:14 AM
2 #5's is still better than 1 with hole in the bottom of the rotation.

That's how I look at it...


Is it just me or is this the only message board where you can see:

fans: KW get us another starter! Anybody would be better than Grilli!

media: El Duque is reported to be coming to the sox

fans: NO! he's too old and costs too much!

:?:

Mickster
12-22-2004, 09:16 AM
You can never have enough pitching. The "extra" #5 goes into the bullpen as long reliever and spot starter. When somebody gets hurt or underperforms (a 100% certainty these days), the "extra" #5 serves as a nice insurance policy.

Who else remembers Kirk McCaskill from the early-90's? He was acquired as a starter from California, but he wasn't very good as a starter. He proved himself most valuable coming out of the bullpen. IIRC, we won a couple a division titles with his help to...
:cool:
Couldn't agree more. I would even love another high-risk high-reward incentive-laden signing as insurance. As PHG correctly points out, the 5 SP on the roster will not be the only ones to start. Injuries, double-headers, etc.. will force spot starts from your pen.

wdelaney72
12-22-2004, 09:22 AM
I like this move. He's old and may have health problems, but he still has the ability to win 10+ games. When healthy, he's a better pitcher than Millwood and O. Perez, and at he's cheaper, which may allow us to pick up that other 2B we need.

At first I had thought of putting him at #3, but after reading some of the posts, he should be in the #5 hole. This will give him some periodic rest at times, which he'll probably need.

Plus, this guy is a proven playoff pitcher... I hope this goes through so I can be excited about the '05 season again.

Baby Fisk
12-22-2004, 09:38 AM
Who else remembers Kirk McCaskill from the early-90's? He was acquired as a starter from California, but he wasn't very good as a starter. He proved himself most valuable coming out of the bullpen. IIRC, we won a couple a division titles with his help to...
:cool:Kirk McCaskill = A Great Canadian contribution to the Sox! (b. 1961 in northern Ontario) :cool:

1917
12-22-2004, 09:42 AM
How can't you like this as a #5...what I'm waiting for is the contract...is it 2 years 4 million (2 mil a peice)? I hear it will be full of incentives, which I never care about because if they reach them, they were a success.

mdep524
12-22-2004, 09:44 AM
Ummm, excuse me for not jumping with joy. This is a nice move if it clears the way for Garland to be traded in a trade for Vazquez. Otherwise, we're still missing a #3 starter. But hey, at least we have two #5 starters. :rolleyes:
Gotta agree with Jjav here. Counting Garland and Contreras, the Sox would have three number 5 starters if they sign El Duque. While that is good depth, its a thin rotation at the top, which worries me. We need quality, not just quantity!

Unless this move is followed up by trading for Vazquez (or RJ) or signing Odalis Perez or Wade Miller, this 35-yr-old, oft-injured 5th starter isn't the best move for the Sox right now.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-22-2004, 09:51 AM
Why are people calling Orlando Hernandez a #5 starter? He has a career era below 4 and had a pretty good season last year once the Yankees called him up. I'm sure most major league teams wish they had a SP with an era under 4 as their 5th starter...

tstrike2000
12-22-2004, 09:55 AM
Why are people calling Orlando Hernandez a #5 starter? He has a career era below 4 and had a pretty good season last year once the Yankees called him up. I'm sure most major league teams wish they had a SP with an era under 4 as their 5th starter...
I agree with you completely. The only reason he wouldn't be considered more than a #5 starter is stamina concerns. He may not be able to log a lot of innings.

SoxxoS
12-22-2004, 10:03 AM
Don't mind this move at all, but KW better make sure his shoulder is sound with 4 million equaling 6% of the payroll. If Grilli starts more than 2 games this year we aren't winning the division.

SoxxoS
12-22-2004, 10:04 AM
Gotta agree with Jjav here. Counting Garland and Contreras, the Sox would have three number 5 starters if they sign El Duque. While that is good depth, its a thin rotation at the top, which worries me. We need quality, not just quantity!

Unless this move is followed up by trading for Vazquez (or RJ) or signing Odalis Perez or Wade Miller, this 35-yr-old, oft-injured 5th starter isn't the best move for the Sox right now.
According to the relative numbers, Garland is more like a #4 pitcher.

Dolanski
12-22-2004, 10:04 AM
Gotta agree with Jjav here. Counting Garland and Contreras, the Sox would have three number 5 starters if they sign El Duque. While that is good depth, its a thin rotation at the top, which worries me. We need quality, not just quantity!

Unless this move is followed up by trading for Vazquez (or RJ) or signing Odalis Perez or Wade Miller, this 35-yr-old, oft-injured 5th starter isn't the best move for the Sox right now.
Get real. This is it people. I must say, KW could have done worse. Also, he has wanted El Duque for some time, another guy he has "had his eye on." Any trade for Vazquez is going to cost a hell of a lot more than Garland and some prospects. The Yankees are going to want their pound of flesh and its going to be PK or Buerhle (or both) plus Garland and prospects. He ain't worth that much and KW isn't stoopid enough to make that deal. At least, I don't think he is...

Look, all we need is someone to win 10 to 12 games to go with our staff. Think about it. If we had 10 to 12 wins from the 5th starter last year and we are in the playoffs. El Duque isn't the biggest and best FA out there, but he isn't exactly chop liver either. Also, he is a proven playoff pitcher, not something to discount either. Thumbs up on the move.

zach074
12-22-2004, 10:07 AM
I don't see why anyone would consider Contreras a 5th starter? That guy was lights out on numerous occasions.:tongue:

But 05 may be better.

DaveIsHere
12-22-2004, 10:08 AM
Man you people complain about everything, he fills the 5-spot and now you all claim that we have 3 c#5's. Hernadez could be a 3 but is better as a 5 for arm reasons. Garland is a solid 4 and if Contreras pitches like he can he could be a #1......sheesh, if you could do better buy the team and have at it

SoxxoS
12-22-2004, 10:09 AM
I don't see why anyone would consider Contreras a 5th starter? That guy was lights out on numerous occasions.:tongue:

But 05 may be better.
When one day you look like a #1 starter...and other times like a #10 starter that equals a #5:bandance:

Johnny Mostil
12-22-2004, 10:11 AM
Looks like this thing might actually get done.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041221soxelduque,1,4448767.story?coll=cs-home-headlinesSlightly OT, but did anybody notice this passage in that article:


But of the four catchers the Sox used last season--Davis, Burke, Sandy Alomar Jr. and Miguel Olivo--the staff ERA was highest with Davis behind the plate.

Davis caught a team-high 397 innings, and the Sox had a staff ERA of 5.15.

The catcher with the best ERA was Olivo, who was sent to Seattle in that trade amid rumblings that he didn't call a good game. The Sox's ERA was 4.69 in 366 innings with Olivo catching.

Burke had the second-best ERA among Sox catchers at 4.78 in 292 innings.
I hadn't been aware of this (or even that ERA by catcher was readily available), though that just may be because I don't follow these things as I once did.

zach074
12-22-2004, 10:14 AM
When one day you look like a #1 starter...and other times like a #10 starter that equals a #5:bandance:
hmm... math ahhh im on winter break cant i just ignore math?

Just so everyone knows El Duque= The Duke
:)

SoxxoS
12-22-2004, 10:15 AM
That statistic most likely can be dismissed. When certain catchers catch certain pitchers, they just might be catching the better pitchers. It's most likely not because they are a better game caller. If Ben Davis was relegated to 5th starter duty last year...you can see where I am going with this.

mdep524
12-22-2004, 10:18 AM
That statistic most likely can be dismissed. When certain catchers catch certain pitchers, they just might be catching the better pitchers. It's most likely not because they are a better game caller. If Ben Davis was relegated to 5th starter duty last year...you can see where I am going with this.
Yeah, plus Davis had the unlucky duty of catching most of Contreras's games, which during that one stretch in September was basically just batting practice, while Burke caught most of Buehrle's gems.

ND_Sox_Fan
12-22-2004, 10:18 AM
I hadn't been aware of this (or even that ERA by catcher was readily available), though that just may be because I don't follow these things as I once did.The starting pitching was better towards the first half of the year, I don't think this had much to do with the catching either. Furthermore, I thought that Burke called some great games towards the end of the year - I am surprised he didn't have the best ERA.

Second, I think this move would be a great one. Someone said he only threw 85 innings, but look at how many he threw in the minors before he got up to the bigs. I couldn't find his stats with the Clippers last year, but I know he was down there in June and July.

mdep524
12-22-2004, 10:19 AM
Get real. This is it people. I must say, KW could have done worse. Also, he has wanted El Duque for some time, another guy he has "had his eye on." Any trade for Vazquez is going to cost a hell of a lot more than Garland and some prospects. The Yankees are going to want their pound of flesh and its going to be PK or Buerhle (or both) plus Garland and prospects. He ain't worth that much and KW isn't stoopid enough to make that deal. At least, I don't think he is...

Look, all we need is someone to win 10 to 12 games to go with our staff. Think about it. If we had 10 to 12 wins from the 5th starter last year and we are in the playoffs. El Duque isn't the biggest and best FA out there, but he isn't exactly chop liver either. Also, he is a proven playoff pitcher, not something to discount either. Thumbs up on the move.
So who is going to be this team's number 3 starter next year?

Jurr
12-22-2004, 10:21 AM
1.Garcia 2. Buehrle 3. Contreras 4. Garland 5. Hernandez

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2004, 10:21 AM
:tomatoaward

mdep524
12-22-2004, 10:22 AM
1.Garcia 2. Buehrle 3. Contreras 4. Garland 5. Hernandez
Wow. Are you content with Jose Contreras as your number 3? Am I the only guy who doesn't trust Contreras at all?

ND_Sox_Fan
12-22-2004, 10:25 AM
Wow. Are you content with Jose Contreras as your number 3? Am I the only guy who doesn't trust Contreras at all?
I think Garland and Jose will battle it out in ST. I know people hate JG, but he definitely has the potential to be a great #3. In fact, both of these guys do, so let's hope one steps up.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2004, 10:25 AM
Hernandez would be a good addition to this staff. Remember that Garland spent much of last season as the #3 with Schoe and the #5 carousel behind him. With Hernandez, the rotation will be much more secure from top to bottom. It would be even better if they had enough money left over to sign Wade Miller. Then, if Hernandez breaks down at mid-season, Miller likely would be ready to step in.

Mickster
12-22-2004, 10:25 AM
Wow. Are you content with Jose Contreras as your number 3? Am I the only guy who doesn't trust Contreras at all?
I would love Buehrle to be our number 3. Given the current ownership and the fact that we have 5 viable starters, Contreras will do.

ND_Sox_Fan
12-22-2004, 10:28 AM
I would love Buehrle to be our number 3. Given the current ownership and the fact that we have 5 viable starters, Contreras will do.
That would require either RJ or Mulder.

Mickster
12-22-2004, 10:34 AM
That would require either RJ or Mulder.
Precisely why I say that Contreras will do.

ND_Sox_Fan
12-22-2004, 10:35 AM
Precisely why I say that Contreras will do.
Yeah - I like the rotation - a far cry from opening day last year.

zach074
12-22-2004, 10:36 AM
Wow. Are you content with Jose Contreras as your number 3? Am I the only guy who doesn't trust Contreras at all?

I trust him a little, the roatation is better than what we had last year though.
Does no one remember having Garland as our 3rd starter. Or Danny Write as our 5th! :o: That still scares me just to hear about that.

mdep524
12-22-2004, 10:52 AM
I would love Buehrle to be our number 3. Given the current ownership and the fact that we have 5 viable starters, Contreras will do.
I'm OK with Buehrle and Garcia as 1 and 2, seeing as RJ ain't coming here. It's the number 3 spot that is going to be crucial. The Sox needed to get a stud to go next to MB and FG. Clement, Perez, et. al. Hernandez is a damn good 5th starter, but he's just that: a 5th starter.

If the face off in a three-game series vs. the Twins to decide the Central, who would you have starting that 3rd game? And if the Sox make the playoffs, same question- who starts Game 3?

Mickster
12-22-2004, 10:54 AM
I'm OK with Buehrle and Garcia as 1 and 2, seeing as RJ ain't coming here. It's the number 3 spot that is going to be crucial. The Sox needed to get a stud to go next to MB and FG. Clement, Perez, et. al. Hernandez is a damn good 5th starter, but he's just that: a 5th starter.

If the face off in a three-game series vs. the Twins to decide the Central, who would you have starting that 3rd game? And if the Sox make the playoffs, same question- who starts Game 3?Honestly? In a 3 game series with the Twins or in the playoffs if it were right now? El-Duque would probably get my vote.

The only reason that I claim he's a #5 is due to his durability. He's definately a big-game pitcher, though.

Jerome
12-22-2004, 10:57 AM
So this is what the Carlos Lee money is going to?

Don't get me wrong, it's a good move that makes our rotation a lot better. Now we can use Diaz, Grilli, Cotts, etc. in the bullpen. I'm worried about his age (35? C'mon. He's cuban - you can add at least 3-5 years to that.)

But this makes the Carlos Lee trade even worse. We were told that the money would be spent on a quality starter. Nothing against El Duque, but he is not who I had in mind while trying to justify the trade.

CLee for Podsednik & (Clement, Perez) = better trade

CLee for Podsednik & Orlando Hernandez = bad trade

Mickster
12-22-2004, 11:03 AM
So this is what the Carlos Lee money is going to?

Don't get me wrong, it's a good move that makes our rotation a lot better. Now we can use Diaz, Grilli, Cotts, etc. in the bullpen. I'm worried about his age (35? C'mon. He's cuban - you can add at least 3-5 years to that.)

But this makes the Carlos Lee trade even worse. We were told that the money would be spent on a quality starter. Nothing against El Duque, but he is not who I had in mind while trying to justify the trade.

CLee for Podsednik & (Clement, Perez) = better trade

CLee for Podsednik & Orlando Hernandez = bad trade
How about CLee for:

1. Podsednik
2. Vizciano
3. El Duque
4. Eckstein
5. ............

I was against the CLee trade if it was used for a salary dump and the money would not be spent immediately to fill holes. It appears that they might be doing that. We were at about $73M before the CLee trade with about $2M to play with (assuming you believe in the $75M payroll figures that have been floated around here). Now it appears that we might be using part of the $7M savings from the Lee deal to add multiple players. If the above happens, it's looking more and more like a good trade....

ChicagoHoosier
12-22-2004, 11:10 AM
That's not a very good way to spend $8M. Hernandez was finished last year after 85 IP. He's a nice 5th starter, I guess, provided you don't have Garland at the #4. Otherwise, I'm not really a fan of this deal.

Schoenweiss would have been much better for his arbitration price.I thought we all wanted a top 3 starter to push Contreras and Garland to our 4 and 5 spots. To me, this is slightly more solid than before, but still isn't a major upgrade considering the money we saved by traded C Lee. I hope there is still more in the works for a more reliable starting pitcher.

zigzag
12-22-2004, 11:24 AM
The potential acquisition of Orlando Hernandez, which could be announced as early as today, would be a smart, practical solution to the team's persistent woes at the back of their rotation. I will be sorely disappointed, however, if this is the last acquisition of the season, as the Sox will still be roughly 5 million under their 70 million dollar salary threshold and will have failed to address serious concerns at catcher and second base. While O. Hernandez is still dazzling on occasion, his inability to pitch strong innings over the course of an entire season is a known fact. This would not be the splashy signing that KW promised, and the trade of Lee for Posednik only becomes justified if the Sox make an upgrade in addition to signing El Duque. The team should look long and hard at Pierzynski because despite his bad attitude he is a .300 hitting catcher who knows the division well. Otherwise, it never hurts to continue investing in pitching. This is good, but not nearly enough.

anewman35
12-22-2004, 11:31 AM
This would not be the splashy signing that KW promised, and the trade of Lee for Posednik only becomes justified if the Sox make an upgrade in addition to signing El Duque.
I'm not criticizing any particular person here, but I hate when people pretend KW said things he didn't, then get upset when it doesn't come true. I highly doubt KW ever "promised" a splashy signing. He might have said he wanted one, or was trying for one, but that's very different than promising one.

MRKARNO
12-22-2004, 11:32 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041222&content_id=925074&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp

Just a reiteration of what's been known already, but it's worth noting that it's on the White Sox webpage

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 11:40 AM
Not enthused with this potential signing. Hernandez has only pitched 347 innings over the last three years and more troubling he's a flyball pitcher with a career .79 GB:FB ratio.Not surprising. You bash any move KW makes. How can anyone bash KW for signing a 5th starter. We haven't had one for 4 damn years!

surfdudes
12-22-2004, 11:40 AM
El Duque and...........Cora?
El Duque and ...........Perzinski?
El Duque and ........... "X"stein?
El Duque and ........... Cost increase on Churros dough, we cant spend the money, so don't even think we will fill holes....

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 11:41 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041222&content_id=925074&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp

Just a reiteration of what's been known already, but it's worth noting that it's on the White Sox webpageIn that same article, check this out...
The team will continue to attempt an upgrade in the middle infield, with non-tendered free agents David Eckstein and Alex Cora on the radar.

Eckstein was a favorite of manager Ozzie Guillen's last season because of his grittiness and the manner in which he set up the offense at the top of the order. The diminutive shortstop made just six errors in the field during the 2004 season.I hope it's Eckstein! :bandance:

ND_Sox_Fan
12-22-2004, 11:43 AM
In that same article, check this out...
I hope it's Eckstein! :bandance:That same section talks about Ozzie's love of Eckstein - I like it!!

And he only made 6 errors last year!! How's his range??

petekat
12-22-2004, 11:44 AM
EL Duque- I like I like. :bandance:

If they pick up Vazquez (assuming they don't lose Garland) who moves into the pen. Contreras? Garland?




In that same article, check this out...
I hope it's Eckstein! :bandance:

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 11:45 AM
EL Duque- I like I like. :bandance:

If they pick up Vazquez (assuming they don't lose Garland) who moves into the pen. Contreras? Garland?I don't see any way that happens. If we do trade for Vazquez, Garland would surely be in the deal.

Randar68
12-22-2004, 11:53 AM
I don't see any way that happens. If we do trade for Vazquez, Garland would surely be in the deal.
Yep. Vazquez is a much better pitcher than Garland, IMO. His career outside of Yankee Stadium has been impressive. Garland? He's still such an unknown, although he makes a lot less than Javier...

c4birdiemaker
12-22-2004, 11:55 AM
Not surprising. You bash any move KW makes. How can anyone bash KW for signing a 5th starter. We haven't had one for 4 damn years!except for the fact that this fifth starter that the sox are reportedly going to sign can't hit 85 on the radar gun. This is a nice waste of 8 million bucks. I have seen el duque pitch in the stadium many times and it got to the point where he wasn't fooling anybody.everyone knew in ny that he was all done. It worries me to think that the jankees don't want his services anymore for a reason. Considering all of his postseason success i'm concerned that the janks wouldn't even sign him to an incentive laden contract and invited him to camp.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 11:56 AM
except for the fact that this fifth starter that the sox are reportedly going to sign can't hit 85 on the radar gun. This is a nice waste of 8 million bucks. I have seen el duque pitch in the stadium many times and it got to the point where he wasn't fooling anybody.everyone knew in ny that he was all done. It worries me to think that the jankees don't want his services anymore for a reason. Considering all of his postseason success i'm concerned that the janks wouldn't even sign him to an incentive laden contract and invited him to camp.You do know he had "dead arm" at the end of last season, right? He was hitting 90 earlier in the season.

And maybe you should read the news a bit more. The Yankees DID want to keep El Duque...

"El Duque, Sierra reject arbitration"
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/nyy/news/nyy_news.jsp?ymd=20041220&content_id=924249&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp

Foulke You
12-22-2004, 12:03 PM
except for the fact that this fifth starter that the sox are reportedly going to sign can't hit 85 on the radar gun. This is a nice waste of 8 million bucks. I have seen el duque pitch in the stadium many times and it got to the point where he wasn't fooling anybody.everyone knew in ny that he was all done. It worries me to think that the jankees don't want his services anymore for a reason. Considering all of his postseason success i'm concerned that the janks wouldn't even sign him to an incentive laden contract and invited him to camp.
The Yanks are on a different planet than the Sox. Why sign Orlando Hernandez when you can replace him with Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, and possibly Randy Johnson? Those are options not available to the Sox. Also, I don't know what you're talking about as far as El Duque not fooling anyone. He was arguably the Yankees best pitcher in the 2nd half of the season. How is an E.R.A. around 3 "not fooling anyone"?:?:

Mickster
12-22-2004, 12:05 PM
What makes you categorize Hernandez as a 5th starter? He's pitched 347 innings over the last three years. Guaranteeing him $8M over 2 years wouldn't be very smart.The deal is incentive based.

Sources said the Sox had offered a guaranteed two-year contract heavily laden with incentives, believed to be worth as much as $4 million, although the deal had not been finalized.According to this LINK (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041221soxelduque,1,4448767.story?coll=cs-home-headlines).

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 12:05 PM
The Yanks are on a different planet than the Sox. Why sign Orlando Hernandez when you can replace him with Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, and possibly Randy Johnson? Those are options not available to the Sox. Also, I don't know what you're talking about as far as El Duque not fooling anyone. He was arguably the Yankees best pitcher in the 2nd half of the season. How is an E.R.A. around 3 "not fooling anyone"?:?:I read that the Yankees wanted El Duque as a 6th starter incase of injury or spot starts. El Duque wanted more than a 1-year deal and a guaranteed spot in a rotation.

John Barrett
12-22-2004, 12:05 PM
Is that all everybody does on this site is complain complain complain? when we were in talks w/ Clement people complained about his arm motion/bad last half of season etc... now you would think he was the second coming... I joined this site to talk sox baseball not whine or read the whining of people who will never be satisfied. i certainly hope that you are not like this in your personal life as i am sure you are a joy to be around... that being said i am sure i will take it on the chin... but go bitch away... just do it far away.. the team has been upgraded be happy :angry:

Mickster
12-22-2004, 12:06 PM
It worries me to think that the jankees don't want his services anymore for a reason. Considering all of his postseason success i'm concerned that the janks wouldn't even sign him to an incentive laden contract and invited him to camp.
They offered him arbitration. He turned it down.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-22-2004, 12:10 PM
Is that all everybody does on this site is complain complain complain? when we were in talks w/ Clement people complained about his arm motion/bad last half of season etc... now you would think he was the second coming... I joined this site to talk sox baseball not whine or read the whining of people who will never be satisfied. i certainly hope that you are not like this in your personal life as i am sure you are a joy to be around... that being said i am sure i will take it on the chin... but go bitch away... just do it far away.. the team has been upgraded be happy :angry: Time for another Mydol, John. The only person making an ass of himself with the gloom and doom negativity on this matter is Wealz. Instead you tar the whole lot of us, including people like myself who support the acquisition.

Grow up. You don't like what someone wrote? Quote them and back up why you think they're wrong. You're heading for the Roadhouse if you can't do any better than what you wrote here.
:cool:

Randar68
12-22-2004, 12:19 PM
The only person making an ass of himself with the gloom and doom negativity on this matter is Wealz.
And each of his posts is just a cut-and-paste of all his previous ones, so you really only need to reply once and you'll pretty much cover all he ever talks about....

Randar68
12-22-2004, 12:20 PM
I'm not surprised you support the signing of Hernandez.
Yes, Grili is a MUCH better option.

You bitch when he does nothing, you bitch when he does something...

The article in the Trib suggests 2 years for 4 million(TOTAL!) plus incentives. How can you complain about that? That's less than Hermanson makes, or Uribe, or any of the other pitchers, and it gives you a veteran starter at the back of the rotation....

A.T. Money
12-22-2004, 12:21 PM
El Duque signs!

It's official per Ofman on the Score.

Rocklive99
12-22-2004, 12:22 PM
:cheers: :gulp:

Mickster
12-22-2004, 12:22 PM
I'm not surprised you support the signing of Hernandez.
Nor am I for you distaste to any move involving KW.

Sox: Trade for RJ
Wealz: RJ is washed up, old and has bad knees

Sox: Trade for Mulder
Wealz: You mean we gave up Garland in the deal?? KW sucks!

Sox: Sign O. Perez
Wealz: He will get killed pitching in the Cell........

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 12:23 PM
Yes, Grili is a MUCH better option.

You bitch when he does nothing, you bitch when he does something...

The article in the Trib suggests 2 years for 4 million(TOTAL!) plus incentives. How can you complain about that? That's less than Hermanson makes, or Uribe, or any of the other pitchers, and it gives you a veteran starter at the back of the rotation....Well, I think the Tribune is wrong. All the other reports I'm reading say it's a 2-year, $8 million deal with incentives up to $12 million...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041222&content_id=925074&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
According to published reports Wednesday morning, Hernandez might be staying with the White Sox a little bit longer. The Miami Herald reported that,pending a physical, Hernandez has agreed to a two-year, $8 million deal to join the South Siders, a deal that could be announced later today. The report went on to state that according to Hernandez's agent, he could make as much as $12 million over the two years with incentives.Still a good signing though.

SaltyPretzel
12-22-2004, 12:24 PM
It worries me to think that the jankees don't want his services anymore for a reason.
For what reason did they trade for Esteban last year?

Mickster
12-22-2004, 12:24 PM
Well, I think the Tribune is wrong. All the other reports I'm reading say it's a 2-year, $8 million deal with incentives up to $12 million...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041222&content_id=925074&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
Still a good signing though.
Miami Herald??

Chisox003
12-22-2004, 02:07 PM
You should add AJ to your wishlist since he hasn't been signed yet. But then beware the wrath of the folks who think you may jinx the Sox chances at picking them up. :cool:
I had him on there but then KW said they just did a "background check" on him and he didnt fit what the Sox were looking for...:(:

soxfan26
12-22-2004, 02:08 PM
For Crying out loud ........ Can a Mod Change the name of this thread??
I started a "SOX SIGN EL DUQUE" thread, but it was deleted, and
everyone has no idea hes signed (per am1000, am670 and whitesox.com)
Your thread was merged, I'd say they are awaiting confirmation from a trusted source.

soxfan26
12-22-2004, 02:09 PM
I had him on there but then KW said they just did a "background check" on him and he didnt fit what the Sox were looking for...:(:
You have him in the 2005 lineup in your sig...

surfdudes
12-22-2004, 02:09 PM
I like this, I like it alot.......

soltrain21
12-22-2004, 02:53 PM
Why woryr about who is what numberin the rotation?


It gets screweed up throughotu the year.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:55 PM
Why woryr about who is what numberin the rotation?


It gets screweed up throughotu the year.Well, El Duque has the potential to be a #3 starter but he will probably be best used as our #5 starter so his arm doesn't wear out like it did with the Yankees last season.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-22-2004, 02:59 PM
Well, El Duque has the potential to be a #3 starter but he will probably be best used as our #5 starter so his arm doesn't wear out like it did with the Yankees last season. After the first week of the season this will be a complete non-issue. Ozzie is smart enough to use his pitchers according to who is rested and who is performing well.

In other words, Jon Garland is #5 until somebody breaks down or he otherwise PROVES he is capable of performing well enough not to get skipped in the rotation.

Wake up call for that rockhead!
:cool:

Rockhead ----------> :jon

zigzag
12-23-2004, 11:33 AM
I'm not criticizing any particular person here, but I hate when people pretend KW said things he didn't, then get upset when it doesn't come true. I highly doubt KW ever "promised" a splashy signing. He might have said he wanted one, or was trying for one, but that's very different than promising one.


While KW did not outright 'promise' a big signing, he has been alluding to one the entire offseason, as he has done each and every winter since became general manager. why certain people wish to engage in semantic criticisms about word choice is beyond me. the bottom line is that KW made it sound like he really wanted a front-tier pitcher but in all likelihood he lowballed them all because ownership is unwilling to commit to high salary pitchers. therefore, the signing of hernandez represents an expectation that was not met, though it was a good move.

BridgePortNative
12-23-2004, 01:27 PM
I know this has nothing to do with this conversation, but, ain't it something that nobody wants Ordonez the same reason we didn't want him -
That is because all the medical reports wouldn't be issued and Scott Boras won't let team doctors look at him.
I guess we made a good move not signing him, nobody else will...............