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View Full Version : This offseason just isn't worth getting pissed over.


Jurr
12-21-2004, 09:20 PM
We won't have a paper champion going into the 2005 season. We won't even have a paper division champion, and that's pretty sad. However, that may be the BEST thing you could hope for with the Sox.

They seem to play well when the pressure's off. See 2000 or any of the August/September runs the Sox have put together. Maybe not having a solid lineup full of "nice, comfy names we know" will be the best thing that could happen.

We're not getting a Bartolo Colon (who was the "last piece to the puzzle") or a David Wells (ditto) or a Todd Ritchie (veteran presence) to rest our hopes on and subsequently be disappointed by. We may get the privilege of watching Jason Grilli or some other last minute pickup surprise us, like Esteban Loaiza or Cal Eldred. That's the joy of baseball. You don't know who's going to step up.

We've got a pretty decent bullpen, and that's something to build upon. We've got a good rotation, and our #3 and #4 guys match up pretty well with most teams. #5 may end up being a stable spot this year. Who knows.

I got REALLY tired of the Sox of the last few years on offense. I don't know how many of you felt the same way. They had a terrible core of leaders on offense, and it seemed like they did very little preparation for the games they thought they'd win easily. That's why we got blanked by the minor league callups and no-name pitchers on a regular basis. That's why the Tigers owned us in a series right after we'd wallop some team like the Red Sox and Yankees. This team never focused on offense like they needed to, and then one day a player would say, "Let's study up today and take this game" and they'd put up 17 runs. Ridiculous.

Now, we've got some players with a little more heart. During Podsednik's conference call, I heard a guy that sounds like he really cares what's going on, and a guy that's going to give us hustle. Carl Everett's another guy with that kind of spirit. Paul Konerko and Mark Buehrle give you much of the same.
Chemistry is huge in baseball, and it seemed like some of our big guns (Maggs, Carlos) turned it on and off when they felt like it. Get a character guy like Jermaine Dye in there and we'll see what happens. Minnesota beat us year in and year out because they had chemistry and would step up for each other when they needed to. The Sox needed an enema, and damn it , they got one.

Good chemistry makes players step up and produce. It makes guys like Herbert Perry and Jose Valentin, guys that nobody previously thought were worth a damn, deliver in the clutch. It makes guys like James Baldwin, Cal Eldred, and others pitch like Cy Young candidates. They wanted to step up for some guys they really respected and liked. The Sox haven't been that way in a LONG time, and it's about time we saw that.

It would be a joy to me to see a team that didn't look good on paper come out and win big for the Sox. KW talked about beating the Twins at their own game. Maybe that's what he was talking about.

If you think that just because a player didn't produce in year A, he won't produce in year B, you're just being blind. I'm not going to waste my time getting pissed off about this team and the "lack of upgrades" made during the offseason. Yeah, they're not going to be the best team on paper regardless of what changes are made. They may not even look decent on paper. That and a seventy five cents will buy you a raincoat in the convenience store bathroom. Let's see what this bunch of "paper losers" is capable of. They might actually (don't say it) be GOOD.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 09:30 PM
I agree with the "nice, comfy names we know" comment. Dye and Podsednik aren't HUGE names like Beltran or Drew but they are definately upper-level talent.

OG4LIFE
12-21-2004, 09:34 PM
nice post. honestly it made me feel a little better about the team and season. after hearing about some of the extensions (basically giving away the money saved from the lee trade), and getting pissed off, i thought about totally boycotting the season. thanks for putting it in perspective.


:gulp:

Jurr
12-21-2004, 09:35 PM
Yeah....it would be nice to see the team step up and play some good ball.

By the way, sorry I am so verbose. Lots to read. I should've been some sort of sports writer. Word to the wise: don't listen to mom when she tells you to be a doctor.

MRKARNO
12-21-2004, 09:39 PM
We won't have a paper champion going into the 2005 season. We won't even have a paper division champion, and that's pretty sad. However, that may be the BEST thing you could hope for with the Sox.

They seem to play well when the pressure's off. See 2000 or any of the August/September runs the Sox have put together. Maybe not having a solid lineup full of "nice, comfy names we know" will be the best thing that could happen.

We're not getting a Bartolo Colon (who was the "last piece to the puzzle") or a David Wells (ditto) or a Todd Ritchie (veteran presence) to rest our hopes on and subsequently be disappointed by. We may get the privilege of watching Jason Grilli or some other last minute pickup surprise us, like Esteban Loaiza or Cal Eldred. That's the joy of baseball. You don't know who's going to step up.

We've got a pretty decent bullpen, and that's something to build upon. We've got a good rotation, and our #3 and #4 guys match up pretty well with most teams. #5 may end up being a stable spot this year. Who knows.

I got REALLY tired of the Sox of the last few years on offense. I don't know how many of you felt the same way. They had a terrible core of leaders on offense, and it seemed like they did very little preparation for the games they thought they'd win easily. That's why we got blanked by the minor league callups and no-name pitchers on a regular basis. That's why the Tigers owned us in a series right after we'd wallop some team like the Red Sox and Yankees. This team never focused on offense like they needed to, and then one day a player would say, "Let's study up today and take this game" and they'd put up 17 runs. Ridiculous.

Now, we've got some players with a little more heart. During Podsednik's conference call, I heard a guy that sounds like he really cares what's going on, and a guy that's going to give us hustle. Carl Everett's another guy with that kind of spirit. Paul Konerko and Mark Buehrle give you much of the same.
Chemistry is huge in baseball, and it seemed like some of our big guns (Maggs, Carlos) turned it on and off when they felt like it. Get a character guy like Jermaine Dye in there and we'll see what happens. Minnesota beat us year in and year out because they had chemistry and would step up for each other when they needed to. The Sox needed an enema, and damn it , they got one.

Good chemistry makes players step up and produce. It makes guys like Herbert Perry and Jose Valentin, guys that nobody previously thought were worth a damn, deliver in the clutch. It makes guys like James Baldwin, Cal Eldred, and others pitch like Cy Young candidates. They wanted to step up for some guys they really respected and liked. The Sox haven't been that way in a LONG time, and it's about time we saw that.

It would be a joy to me to see a team that didn't look good on paper come out and win big for the Sox. KW talked about beating the Twins at their own game. Maybe that's what he was talking about.

If you think that just because a player didn't produce in year A, he won't produce in year B, you're just being blind. I'm not going to waste my time getting pissed off about this team and the "lack of upgrades" made during the offseason. Yeah, they're not going to be the best team on paper regardless of what changes are made. They may not even look decent on paper. That and a seventy five cents will buy you a raincoat in the convenience store bathroom. Let's see what this bunch of "paper losers" is capable of. They might actually (don't say it) be GOOD.
I dont even think they're a bad team on paper. People just have their concept of what the White Sox offense should be set at a very high level after seeing us score so many the past few years. I still think we have a better offense than the 2003 team, who had only 3 hitters with an OBP above the .330 range. Our pitching staff will be on par with the 2003 team assuming we dont get a 5th starter and will be on par with 1993 if we do. Our bullpen is also better than the 2003 team as it stands now, maybe even on a 2000 level. Plus I think Diaz and Munoz are going to be pretty good options if we actually decide to go with them. A bullpen of Takatsu, Marte, Hermanson, Politte, Munoz and Diaz will be really good (Vizcaino is a bust in the making as he gives up too many HRs to be effective).

This team IS good on paper, but people are just pissed because they are. We didnt really put it all together in 2003 as we still had Billy Koch and the 5th starter issue, not to mention a worse 2B situation (Harris is an improvement over Duh'angelo/Robbie), an utter disaster from Konerko, no Aaron Rowand in center (though we had Everett the 2nd half). This team if it's healthy is probably an 88-90 win team as it stands now even with the 5th starter issue, though no one wants to admit it because we've seen this team have so many problems the past 4 years. I'll lay out the case latter in the offseason, when it appears all the moves are done (I did predict 91 wins and with Frank and Maggs they probably would have won that many), but this isnt a bad team and I would predict them to be very close to Minnesota or a little better.

DVsoxfan
12-21-2004, 09:41 PM
I agree 100%. Whatever this team has or does not have, why not look at it with a positive light? Thats what I try to do. If we don't get another starter, then maybe a guy like Brandon McCarthy will get a chance to step up and play well. He certainly seems like he has the right attitude for it. It will definately be fun to watch this year, and I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for the positive outlook.

Nick@Nite
12-21-2004, 09:46 PM
I got REALLY tired of the Sox of the last few years on offense. I don't know how many of you felt the same way. They had a terrible core of leaders on offense, and it seemed like they did very little preparation for the games they thought they'd win easily. That's why we got blanked by the minor league callups and no-name pitchers on a regular basis. I'm with you. Watching the Sox get blanked by minor league callups and no-name stiffs drove me :nuts: .

MRKARNO
12-21-2004, 10:03 PM
:threadrules:

DaveIsHere
12-21-2004, 10:07 PM
:threadrules:Damn you stole that from be, but I must say:threadrules:

batmanZoSo
12-21-2004, 10:55 PM
I dont even think they're a bad team on paper. People just have their concept of what the White Sox offense should be set at a very high level after seeing us score so many the past few years. I still think we have a better offense than the 2003 team, who had only 3 hitters with an OBP above the .330 range. Our pitching staff will be on par with the 2003 team assuming we dont get a 5th starter and will be on par with 1993 if we do. Our bullpen is also better than the 2003 team as it stands now, maybe even on a 2000 level. Plus I think Diaz and Munoz are going to be pretty good options if we actually decide to go with them. A bullpen of Takatsu, Marte, Hermanson, Politte, Munoz and Diaz will be really good (Vizcaino is a bust in the making as he gives up too many HRs to be effective).

This team IS good on paper, but people are just pissed because they are. We didnt really put it all together in 2003 as we still had Billy Koch and the 5th starter issue, not to mention a worse 2B situation (Harris is an improvement over Duh'angelo/Robbie), an utter disaster from Konerko, no Aaron Rowand in center (though we had Everett the 2nd half). This team if it's healthy is probably an 88-90 win team as it stands now even with the 5th starter issue, though no one wants to admit it because we've seen this team have so many problems the past 4 years. I'll lay out the case latter in the offseason, when it appears all the moves are done (I did predict 91 wins and with Frank and Maggs they probably would have won that many), but this isnt a bad team and I would predict them to be very close to Minnesota or a little better.
I don't see how this is an 88-90 win team. We didn't win that much last year, haven't since 2000 and since last year we've lost Ordonez and Lee while adding Podsednik and Dye and haven't improved the starting rotation. If we do not get another starter--and a good one--we WILL finish second again. Or maybe even third this time. But no more than our usual 83-87 wins. I guaran-f'in-tee it.

jordan23ventura
12-22-2004, 02:24 AM
I like the offseason activity this year because it seems to be all going in a logical direction towards - you're not going to believe this - winning with payroll restrictions.

KW went out and got a leadoff man with speed, added to the bullpen (I liked the Hermanson move because in the event of a doubleheader or something we are much better prepared), is trying to get a legitimate fifth starter and added Dye instead of assuming that Everett and Thomas would both be able to play.

Last offseason was a lot of stabs into the dark and a lot of small risks with the potential to be big payoffs. KW picked up Uribe and Shingo, tried Jackson, etc., but it all seemed hit or miss. No attempts at anyone proven. This year he picks up actual major leaguers to fill holes and isn't banking on one 'impact' player to solve several unrelated problems.

All in all, the team needed a major overhaul and it has gotten one. All we need now is Eckstein and a major league fifth starter.

jordan23ventura
12-22-2004, 02:36 AM
I don't see how this is an 88-90 win team. We didn't win that much last year, haven't since 2000 and since last year we've lost Ordonez and Lee while adding Podsednik and Dye and haven't improved the starting rotation. If we do not get another starter--and a good one--we WILL finish second again. Or maybe even third this time. But no more than our usual 83-87 wins. I guaran-f'in-tee it.
You also have to take in consideration that Loaiza went into the season as our No.1 or No.2 starter, an unproven Shoenweis was our fourth starter, no Contreras or Garcia until the second half of the season, and of course the injuries to Maggs, Thomas, and Everett. Also, our bullpen was made up of an unknown from Japan, Mike freakin' Jackson, Billy 'Let's Make This Interesting' Koch, and Cotts and Adkins had their first full year in a major league bullpen. Wunsch couldn't play, and there was never a fifth starter. Plus, it was Ozzie's first year managing.

All considering, to finish in second place in front of Cleveland was just about as good as things could have went. In 2005 we may finally have a full rotation, a strong bullpen with a closer the team can put confidence in, some more speed and defense, a more balanced starting line up, and at least one full year of experience for Willie, Rowand, Gload, Cotts, Adkins, Ozzie, etc.

There is no reason why the 2005 Sox would be unable to win 90 games if things go well. But, as we all know, things could fall apart at any time.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:40 AM
All in all, the team needed a major overhaul and it has gotten one. All we need now is Eckstein and a major league fifth starter.Possibly one down...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43195

Dan H
12-22-2004, 10:30 AM
As far as I am concerned, this team still has too many question marks, and if it gets El Duque, they will have one more. I will save my optimism after I see the club play about 30 games. Otherwise, I am not going to cheer payroll cutting just for the sake of payroll cutting. I am not concerned about Jerry Reinsdorf's bottom line. I want my money's worth when I walk in and sit a new green seat.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2004, 11:31 AM
I like this thread. It seems that the pessimists fall into two categories: the "video gamers" who think the only way to win is with the long ball and think the sky is falling because the Sox will no longer have slugging sluggards throughout the lineup; and the veteran Sox fans who decry Uncle Jerry's unwillingness to spend to get top talent. While I ignore the first group, I respect the second group.

I'm not old enough to remember the 70s and I wasn't alive in the 60s, but I've seen my share of pleasant surprises and crushing disappointments since 1983. I don't think the 2005 team will be much like the 2000 team, because that starting rotation was cobbled together on a wing and a prayer and won on the strength of its bats and bullpen.

I think a more interesting parallel could be 1990. Many predicted them to finish last. But they won 94 games with speed, defense and situational hitting. The 2005 Sox have a comparable, if not better, rotation and won't have to face a 100-pound gorilla division rival like the defending champion '90 Oakland Athletics. Compare the '90 starting rotation (1990 Stats (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/schedule.php?y=1990&t=CHA)) W/L records with the projected 2005 rotation W/L records in 2004 (full season stats for Garcia and Contreras):

Buehrle (16-10, 3.89) = McDowell (14-9, 3.82)
Garcia (13-11, 3.81) = Fernandez (5-5, 3.80)
Garland (12-11, 4.89) = Melido Perez (13-14, 4.61)

Now, although Eric King (12-4, 3.78) and Greg Hibbard (14-9, 3.16) were very good in 1990, would you rather have King and Hibbard or Jose Contreras and Orlando Hernandez filling out the rotation? And remember, Old Comiskey was a pitcher's park. Buehrle's 3.89 would be in the low 3's (or high 2's) if he pitched in Old Comiskey, whereas King and Hibbard likely would throw in the mid-4's in the Cell.

In summary, I think Ozzie intends to play a 1990 Sox-style game now that he has more players who fit his style of play.

LVSoxFan
12-22-2004, 11:42 AM
That post rules, Jurr!

Can't argue with what you said; when all is said and done, it's time to sit back, stop speculating and just watch them play ball. I agree with you about the psychotic frustration of watching 'em take 2 out of three from the Red Sox, then get smoked in Detroit. ***? Or even worse, watching them wallop the Yanks and then get shiv'd in... Toronto?

I'll repeat what I said long ago: my theory is that we had too many Big Players mixed with the more ordinary Team Players, and a handful of scrubs.

IMO, you can win with lots of Big Players (Yanks, BoSox) or you can win with lots of Team Players (Twins) but when you have sort of a mix n' match like we did, you end up like we did. The mixture never gels.

Now we've got lots of recognizable players, but since Lee and Mags are gone (and who knows about Thomas), we've got more of a "team" makeup--which sort of makes Konerko our Big Name, which is fine by me.

So we'll see. All of this, of course, is contingent on plugging that fifth pitching hole...

Jurr
12-22-2004, 12:04 PM
That post rules, Jurr!

Can't argue with what you said; when all is said and done, it's time to sit back, stop speculating and just watch them play ball. I agree with you about the psychotic frustration of watching 'em take 2 out of three from the Red Sox, then get smoked in Detroit. ***? Or even worse, watching them wallop the Yanks and then get shiv'd in... Toronto?

I'll repeat what I said long ago: my theory is that we had too many Big Players mixed with the more ordinary Team Players, and a handful of scrubs.

IMO, you can win with lots of Big Players (Yanks, BoSox) or you can win with lots of Team Players (Twins) but when you have sort of a mix n' match like we did, you end up like we did. The mixture never gels.

Now we've got lots of recognizable players, but since Lee and Mags are gone (and who knows about Thomas), we've got more of a "team" makeup--which sort of makes Konerko our Big Name, which is fine by me.

So we'll see. All of this, of course, is contingent on plugging that fifth pitching hole...
Well, we've got a fifth pitcher in Hernandez, or so it seems. He may be a good pickup. He may suck, also, and that would give someone like Jason Grilli (or someone else) a chance to come in and dazzle us. That's just the great part about baseball. We don't know who's going to step up big.

Jurr
12-22-2004, 12:08 PM
As far as I am concerned, this team still has too many question marks, and if it gets El Duque, they will have one more. I will save my optimism after I see the club play about 30 games. Otherwise, I am not going to cheer payroll cutting just for the sake of payroll cutting. I am not concerned about Jerry Reinsdorf's bottom line. I want my money's worth when I walk in and sit a new green seat.And, that is totally alright, if that's how you want to look at it. It's better on your blood pressure to have an EXCITED outlook going into the season (not + or -). Plus, if we get El Duque and an infielder like Eckstein or Cora, then we got 4 quality guys for one player (who was questionable in all intangible categories). That will be one helluva deal.

Lip Man 1
12-22-2004, 12:39 PM
Dan:

Very well said.

Lip

Jurr
12-22-2004, 01:29 PM
I am glad to see, by the way, that there is a number of Sox fans that are doing the right thing and getting excited about the season, as opposed to writing off the Sox before the pitchers and catchers report. Like I've said before, you guys are the best.

Rocky Soprano
12-22-2004, 01:37 PM
Jurr,


AWESOME post, probably the best post I have ever read. I agree with every word you said. I truly believe that this team, with no pressure on them, will just come out and possibly dominate.

I for one am very excited and caint wait to hear: "Play Ball"

Let's Go Sox!
Let's Go Sox!
Let's Go Sox!

Wealz
12-22-2004, 01:57 PM
I agree with the "nice, comfy names we know" comment. Dye and Podsednik aren't HUGE names like Beltran or Drew but they are definately upper-level talent.
Dye and Podsednik, upper-level talent? No they aren't.

Jabroni
12-22-2004, 02:03 PM
Dye and Podsednik, upper-level talent? No they aren't.They are definately better than mid-level talent but not top talent like Carlos Beltran, J.D. Drew, etc.

Chisox003
12-22-2004, 02:06 PM
This team "on paper" has a chance to be outstanding...Adding Eckstein at the top of this lineup along with Podsednik gives the Sox a lethal 1 2 punch at the top, with 2 guys who can get on and run..something the Sox never do...2 tablesetters for Konerko Dye Thomas and Rowand, and finally a full 5 man rotation.....

Remember last year, Garcia and Contreras werent added until mid season, so the Sox went through the 1st half of the season without even 4 solid starters...now we got 5 with the addition of El Duque, and IF eckstein is added...look out

Jurr
12-22-2004, 02:08 PM
They are definately better than mid-level talent but not top talent like Carlos Beltran, J.D. Drew, etc.Hell, I'd take a guy like Dye, who's sticking by his word to play with a team (disregarding more money) than a guy like Beltran, who's ego is getting blown out of the water because of the attention he's getting. Beltran, Beltre, and all of these guys end up believing their own hype, they get these big contracts, and then never live up to them. They become a problem payroll wise and in the clubhouse. Name me one guy in the last 4 years that has signed a huge contract and has ended up being a total perfect signing for his team. Vlad Guerrero would be the one I could think of. Besides that, I'm at a loss.

I'd like big character guys that can play baseball than some guy that gets paid 150 million dollars because he can hit 40 bombs. All of these huge Giambi and A-Rod-caliber signings have really helped teams win the world series, haven't they? Hell, getting rid of A-Rod was the best thing that happened to Texas.

Wealz
12-22-2004, 02:08 PM
They are definately better than mid-level talent but not top talent like Carlos Beltran, J.D. Drew, etc.
Dye is probably average. Podsednik, if he's somewhere between '03 and '04, will be below-average.