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bigredrudy
12-21-2004, 09:02 AM
It's beginning to appear to me that the White Sox have no intention of spending the extra money they gained from the Lee trade. They are probably using the money to pay for the Uribe extension and the Rowand extension which will be forthcoming. Read the article on the White Sox website regarding Schoeneweiss's non tender. According to the article Cooper told Schoneweiss he would be the 5th starter if he signed the contract that the Sox were offering. All this stuff about a fifth starter and the Sox were going to make Schoeneweiss the 5th starter. And then they quibbled with Scott about a small amount of money-less than one million. The White Sox and JR have tried to sell the fans on a bunch of bs. If you can't afford Schoenewess as a 5th starter-who can you afford? I am sick of all this-aren't you? The White Sox are not going to sign any decent free agent pitcher-the whole thing is a hoax. Oh the White Sox might sign Alex Cora-big deal. All the investors care about is that they don't spend more money than they take in.

Troupis
12-21-2004, 09:12 AM
I agree that the JR is very concerned about making money, but he's a business man first and a baseball fan third.

Does anyone remember The Cell last summer when we were in contention - PACKED! I mean I was at a Thursday Angels game that had 27,845 (according to my scorecard) at full price tickets. Lots of money!

Does anyone remember The Cell after the Twins came in here and knocked us out - literally. The Cell was sad on regular price days (and sadly fan days too).

So as far as I'm concerned, from a business standpoint fielding a real competitive team with a real 5th starter and some big name players makes the most sense.

I'm equally as frustrated as you man.

fquaye149
12-21-2004, 09:15 AM
do we have a picture of someone beating something into the ground

or maybe a dead horse being hit with something?

kittle42
12-21-2004, 09:15 AM
Shhh! They haven't played a game yet! And it's not even January! You don't know what KW and JR will do!

mweflen
12-21-2004, 09:26 AM
fascinating stuff for all those people who keep saying "Kenny's got something else planned."

DaveIsHere
12-21-2004, 09:28 AM
:whiner: BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!! GET OVER IT ALREADY!!!!!!

oh yeah cry us all a river, there isnt anything you can do

Daver
12-21-2004, 09:37 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 09:46 AM
Maybe we should just give some of these overused threads numbers and save everyone a lot of time. Then instead of posting a long diatribe that everyone's seen a hundred times, you can just post the number. Feel free to add to the list.

JR is making tons of money and is too cheap to spend it: 14
The sky is falling: 17
All Sox players suck and should be replaced immediately: 21
JR really doesn't care about winning: 27
Kenny is a moron and any move he makes is bound to be bad: 31
Trading is stupid because you just create another hole: 37

Mickster
12-21-2004, 09:48 AM
Maybe we should just give some of these overused threads numbers and save everyone a lot of time. Then instead of posting a long diatribe that everyone's seen a hundred times, you can just post the number. Feel free to add to the list.

JR is making tons of money and is too cheap to spend it: 14
The sky is falling: 17
All Sox players suck and should be replaced immediately: 21
JR really doesn't care about winning: 27
Kenny is a moron and any move he makes is bound to be bad: 31
Trading is stupid because you just create another hole: 37
OK. 14, 17, 21, 27, 31, 37!!! :D:

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 10:17 AM
[QUOTE=bigredrudy]It's beginning to appear to me that the White Sox have no intention of spending the extra money they gained from the Lee trade. They are probably using the money to pay for the Uribe extension and the Rowand extension which will be forthcoming. Read the article on the White Sox website regarding Schoeneweiss's non tender. [QUOTE]

Welcome Aboard Rudy, dont mind some of the people here, they continue
to think Uncle Jerry is Santa Claus and hes going to Spend the Money and
get us to the World Series.

The Schoenweiss non-tender coming right now tells me something Fishy
was going on ...... they would know one way or the other if they were gonna
sign the guy. They are Definitely not spending the extra money.
Theyve been doing this for ....... ten years or so I would fathom.
Oh well. Lets not complain, at least we finished in 2nd place right?:cool:

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 10:19 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gifMWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Jurr
12-21-2004, 10:33 AM
OK. 14, 17, 21, 27, 31, 37!!! :D:Yes...that's a bingo! Excellent. Tell him what he's won!!!!!!!!

Jurr
12-21-2004, 10:34 AM
We may not see the Sox actually spend that money on a free agent, but trading still seems very possible. Just sit tight and stay tuned.............

mdep524
12-21-2004, 10:35 AM
I agree that the JR is very concerned about making money, but he's a business man first and a baseball fan third.

Does anyone remember The Cell last summer when we were in contention - PACKED! I mean I was at a Thursday Angels game that had 27,845 (according to my scorecard) at full price tickets. Lots of money!

Does anyone remember The Cell after the Twins came in here and knocked us out - literally. The Cell was sad on regular price days (and sadly fan days too).

So as far as I'm concerned, from a business standpoint fielding a real competitive team with a real 5th starter and some big name players makes the most sense.

I'm equally as frustrated as you man.
Yup. Great post Troupis. The most frustrating part of this ever-lasting situation is that it actually makes more business sense for JR to put more money in the team anyway! He'd make MORE money by selling out the stadium and going to the playoffs. It's win-win. <Sigh>

anewman35
12-21-2004, 10:35 AM
[QUOTE=bigredrudy]
The Schoenweiss non-tender coming right now tells me something Fishy
was going on ...... they would know one way or the other if they were gonna
sign the guy. They are Definitely not spending the extra money.
:cool:
Um, what? The Schoenweiss non-tender came right now because right now is the deadline. And why does non-tendering Schoenweiss have anything to do with signing another starter?

anewman35
12-21-2004, 10:36 AM
Yup. Great post Troupis. The most frustrating part of this ever-lasting situation is that it actually makes more business sense for JR to put more money in the team anyway! He'd make MORE money by selling out the stadium and going to the playoffs. It's win-win. <Sigh>
It's not win-win, though, really. What happens if he spends and spends and spends, and then the team sucks anyway? Fans won't come out, and he's losing tons of money.

mdep524
12-21-2004, 10:40 AM
We may not see the Sox actually spend that money on a free agent, but trading still seems very possible. Just sit tight and stay tuned.............
OK, also, here's a point no one has considered. If the Sox are uncertain whether they will be able to acquire a solid SP, why did they need to trade Lee in the first place? Couldn't they make a move for a pitcher FIRST, and THEN trade Lee to make room? That makes a lot more sense. Then, if the desired pitcher acquisition never comes to fruition, at least you still have Lee. Or even better, trade Lee, the Sox best bargaining chip, FOR the pitcher. (Mulder, Hudson, Vazquez, etc.).

The way KW and the Sox went about this was completely backwards.

bigredrudy
12-21-2004, 10:41 AM
This is not the same old thing. Cooper says that Schoneweiss would have been the 5th starter had he accepted the offer. This means tht the guy they had in mind was Schoeneweiss and they had no intention of pursuing other free agents.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 10:41 AM
OK, also, here's a point no one has considered. If the Sox are uncertain whether they will be able to acquire a solid SP, why did they need to trade Lee in the first place? Couldn't they make a move for a pitcher FIRST, and THEN trade Lee to make room? That makes a lot more sense. Then, if the desired pitcher acquisition never comes to fruition, at least you still have Lee. Or even better, trade Lee, the Sox best bargaining chip, FOR the pitcher. (Mulder, Hudson, Vazquez, etc.).

The way KW and the Sox went about this was completely backwards.You're assuming the Brewers would just sit around waiting?

anewman35
12-21-2004, 10:44 AM
OK, also, here's a point no one has considered. If the Sox are uncertain whether they will be able to acquire a solid SP, why did they need to trade Lee in the first place? Couldn't they make a move for a pitcher FIRST, and THEN trade Lee to make room? That makes a lot more sense. Then, if the desired pitcher acquisition never comes to fruition, at least you still have Lee.
As with most things JR does, he was just trying to play it safe. If you're on a budget, it's not a smart move to go way over the budget and hope you can go under it later. You don't have to start bashing JR over it, I think we all know what most people think of what he does. It's really easy for people here to spend money that isn't theirs.

anewman35
12-21-2004, 10:46 AM
This is not the same old thing. Cooper says that Schoneweiss would have been the 5th starter had he accepted the offer. This means tht the guy they had in mind was Schoeneweiss and they had no intention of pursuing other free agents.
Since when does Cooper make moves? I'd bet you anything that what Cooper actually meant was that, IF we went into the season with the same roster we have now, Schoenweiss would have been the 5th starter. I guarentee you Cooper is not in the loop on the day to day buisness of free agent signings and trades. They might ask him his opinion once in a while, but it's not like they send out a big list of all the players they plan to sign to all the coaches.

Lip Man 1
12-21-2004, 10:47 AM
Anewman says: "It's not win-win, though, really. What happens if he spends and spends and spends, and then the team sucks anyway? Fans won't come out, and he's losing tons of money."
Honestly I don't know exactly how to respond to this.

Heaven forbid that Uncle Jerry take ANY risk what - so - ever, even though the city and state GAVE him a new stadium!

Nine of the top ten spending teams in MLB last year had at least a winning record, I think the odds are good that even a dysfunctional organization like the White Sox couldn't screw that up if they spent enough. And me thinks the odds are very good that if they were to do something like this you'd have to beat the fans away with a stick.

Friends Of Uncle Jerry just don't 'get it,' do they?

Lip

DaveIsHere
12-21-2004, 10:47 AM
where is he...where is he??



:threadsucks:
aaahhh there he is

mdep524
12-21-2004, 10:53 AM
As with most things JR does, he was just trying to play it safe. If you're on a budget, it's not a smart move to go way over the budget and hope you can go under it later. You don't have to start bashing JR over it, I think we all know what most people think of what he does. It's really easy for people here to spend money that isn't theirs.
anewman, as you know I am NOT a JR basher. In this case however, I think it could be very reasonably argued that Carlos Lee was pretty attractive to other teams, enough so that trading him after signing a Matt Clement would not be a worry. Especially considering the less-than-fair value package the Sox were willing to accept in return for Lee.

mdep524
12-21-2004, 10:55 AM
You're assuming the Brewers would just sit around waiting?
You mean we would have missed out on Scott Podsednik! :o:

Also, if you're the Brewers and you're clearly getting the better end of this deal, I think you'd be willing to wait a few weeks to get it done. There are many other places the Sox could have "dumped" Lee's salary in a less-than-fair-value anyway.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 10:58 AM
You mean we would have missed out on Scott Podsednik! :o:

Also, if you're the Brewers and you're clearly getting the better end of this deal, I think you'd be willing to wait a few weeks to get it done. There are many other places the Sox could have "dumped" Lee's salary in a less-than-fair-value anyway.First of all, it's more than Podsednik. Vizcaino is a pretty solid reliever. And how many other guys are available that can steal 70 bases? I doubt this trade would have been available if they waited. He who hesitates is lost.

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 11:01 AM
OK, also, here's a point no one has considered. If the Sox are uncertain whether they will be able to acquire a solid SP, why did they need to trade Lee in the first place? Couldn't they make a move for a pitcher FIRST, and THEN trade Lee to make room? That makes a lot more sense. Then, if the desired pitcher acquisition never comes to fruition, at least you still have Lee. Or even better, trade Lee, the Sox best bargaining chip, FOR the pitcher. (Mulder, Hudson, Vazquez, etc.).

The way KW and the Sox went about this was completely backwards.
EXCELLENT QUESTION. Imagine if your a Cop, and you were investigating
this. Its clear the SOX motive was to DUMP Salary, not make room
so they could "sign a pitcher". its all BullJunk.

Dadawg_77
12-21-2004, 11:05 AM
Since when does Cooper make moves? I'd bet you anything that what Cooper actually meant was that, IF we went into the season with the same roster we have now, Schoenweiss would have been the 5th starter. I guarentee you Cooper is not in the loop on the day to day buisness of free agent signings and trades. They might ask him his opinion once in a while, but it's not like they send out a big list of all the players they plan to sign to all the coaches.
Why was Cooper talking to Show? Was it at the request of Kenny or did Show call Cooper? If Kenny requested Cooper to give Show a call to ensure him of the Sox plans, then I would think Cooper would know the direction the Sox wanted to take. If Show called Cooper while I still think he would know the general idea of what direction the Sox wanted to take, he may know less of the specifics.

southsideirish71
12-21-2004, 11:05 AM
EXCELLENT QUESTION. Imagine if your a Cop, and you were investigating
this. Its clear the SOX motive was to DUMP Salary, not make room
so they could "sign a pitcher". its all BullJunk. But how can JR roll around naked in his money if you make him spend on on FA's. Come on now.

http://www.noglory.com/noglory/images/reinsdorf2.gif
http://www.noglory.com/noglory/images/reinsdorf5.gif

fquaye149
12-21-2004, 11:06 AM
EXCELLENT QUESTION. Imagine if your a Cop, and you were investigating
this. Its clear the SOX motive was to DUMP Salary, not make room
so they could "sign a pitcher". its all BullJunk.
umm....how about the fact that the A's were reportedly hotly after podsednik....you think he MIGHT have been trade bait for Mulder or Hudson possibly?

Say what you want about Podsednik/Vizcaino for Lee, but KW clearly wanted it done and he probably wouldn't have had a chance to do it if he sat on his hands till he signed a pitcher.

LVSoxFan
12-21-2004, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I'm not so sure I'm buying into the "Just wait and see" stuff about JR. It's been an awfully long wait. Seeing that we knew way back last year our biggest hole was at pitcher, the fact that we've left that to last during the off-season doesn't instill any kind of confidence in me.

I mean, JR does have a proven track record of never having the team get past the first round of the playoffs, if they even make it that far.

If we don't sign a quality 5th, I'm looking forward to the exciting battle with Cleveland for second place.
I do get a kick out of how people say "Well what if JR spends the dough and the guy doesn't live up to the hype?" LOL. Dem's the chances ya take, people...

Tragg
12-21-2004, 11:09 AM
First of all, it's more than Podsednik. Vizcaino is a pretty solid reliever. And how many other guys are available that can steal 70 bases? I doubt this trade would have been available if they waited. He who hesitates is lost.
If the Brewers motivation was to get rid of Podsednik, then it probably wouldn't have been available. If the motivation was to get a hitter like Lee, and give up little in return, then it would have been available.

But there would have been other trade opportunities by which we could have dealt Lee and gotten 60% of his value in return. After all, we got a player with inferior offensive stats across the board, except for steals. And a middle reliever

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 11:11 AM
First of all.......... Vizcaino is a pretty solid reliever.
And why were the SOX trying to shore up their bullpen?
Oh, because we wanted to save some $$$$$$$ getting rid of Foulke for Koch.
Oh, and because we wanted to save some $$$$ getting rid of Sullivan and Gordon. Filling Holes Created by us doesnt win you divisions .......

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 11:16 AM
If the Brewers motivation was to get rid of Podsednik, then it probably wouldn't have been available. If the motivation was to get a hitter like Lee, and give up little in return, then it would have been available.

But there would have been other trade opportunities by which we could have dealt Lee and gotten 60% of his value in return. After all, we got a player with inferior offensive stats across the board, except for steals. And a middle reliever60%? I can say it's 120%. It's just an opinion festooned with a number to give it the appearance of objectivity. Let's get realistic. Carlos Lee isn't the only RH hitting OF in baseball. The chances are pretty good that if the Sox had waited, Melvin would have filled that need elsewhere. What the Sox needed was a leadoff hitter AND bullpen help. (Why does everyone just ignore Vizcaino?). If they had waited, it's unlikely they could have gotten both in return.

First people complained when the lineup wasn't set 2 days before the FA deadline. Now they think he should have waited. Somehow I'm getting the impression that some people will complain no matter what they do.

Tragg
12-21-2004, 11:30 AM
60%? I can say it's 120%. It's just an opinion festooned with a number to give it the appearance of objectivity. Let's get realistic. Carlos Lee isn't the only RH hitting OF in baseball. The chances are pretty good that if the Sox had waited, Melvin would have filled that need elsewhere. What the Sox needed was a leadoff hitter AND bullpen help. (Why does everyone just ignore Vizcaino?). If they had waited, it's unlikely they could have gotten both in return.

First people complained when the lineup wasn't set 2 days before the FA deadline. Now they think he should have waited. Somehow I'm getting the impression that some people will complain no matter what they do.While I will agree that my 60% is an "opinion fastooned to a number" under no OBJECTIVE analysis can anyone suggest that we got anything close to equal return talent wise. Lee is the superior player in all categories but 1;

Vasquez is a middle reliever and middle releivers are middle relievers for a reason (and they are paid like middle relievers for a reason).

Power hitting outfielders are so common that JD Drew will sign for $10 million; the best we could come up with to replace maggs was Dye. I don't buy it.

Here's something we could have done - jumped into the VAsquez deal using Lee to the Dodgers; Lee and marte to the Dodgers for Vasquez; sign Cora and move Willie to the outfield or find one of these expendable outfielders on the non-tendered list with some speed if we think that's critical.
Or done Konerko to the dodgers instead

There were many alternatives to handling this; to me, the evidence suggests that we didn't want to do anything until we knew we had banked salary. And that's okay IF we use that bank wisely to improve the team. Because indeed, considering what we got AND $6 million saved, it was a good deal; but I don't care about the $6 million, unless it's invested back into the team BEFORE the season.

(note the contrast to Depodesta - he isn't confirming his salary dump in the RJ trade UNTIL he has his spinoff deal worked out)

PaulDrake
12-21-2004, 11:35 AM
where is he...where is he??



:threadsucks:
aaahhh there he is This thread doesn't suck but this tag sure as hell does.

mdep524
12-21-2004, 11:40 AM
Anewman says: "It's not win-win, though, really. What happens if he spends and spends and spends, and then the team sucks anyway? Fans won't come out, and he's losing tons of money."
Honestly I don't know exactly how to respond to this.

Heaven forbid that Uncle Jerry take ANY risk what - so - ever, even though the city and state GAVE him a new stadium!

Nine of the top ten spending teams in MLB last year had at least a winning record, I think the odds are good that even a dysfunctional organization like the White Sox couldn't screw that up if they spent enough. And me thinks the odds are very good that if they were to do something like this you'd have to beat the fans away with a stick.
I have to agree with Lip on this one. Again, I am not a JR basher, but are we supposed to accept that the guy will never take even the smallest of risks? In this thread I am not even arguing for JR to raise payroll, I was merely saying he should acquire a big name pitcher BEFORE he dumps Carlos Lee. That barely qualifies as a risk at all.

DaveIsHere
12-21-2004, 11:41 AM
This thread doesn't suck but this tag sure as hell does.

okok then,

:chunks:

I feel better

mdep524
12-21-2004, 11:46 AM
umm....how about the fact that the A's were reportedly hotly after podsednik....you think he MIGHT have been trade bait for Mulder or Hudson possibly?

Say what you want about Podsednik/Vizcaino for Lee, but KW clearly wanted it done and he probably wouldn't have had a chance to do it if he sat on his hands till he signed a pitcher.
I have to disagree here. First, I doubt the Brewers would have been interested in Hudson or Mulder. Second, Billy Beane is known to value OBP and dismiss SBs, so I question the "hotness" of his pursuit of Podsednik.

Also, if by some chance KW missed the boat on the Pod + Vizcaino trade, there would be many many comparable trades he could have made with other teams. The Dodgers, The Orioles. The Blue Jays. Many teams would have given the Sox value at least worth Podsednik and Vizcaino, which itself is not worth CLee.

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 11:58 AM
Yeah, I'm not so sure I'm buying into the "Just wait and see" stuff about JR. It's been an awfully long wait. Seeing that we knew way back last year our biggest hole was at pitcher, the fact that we've left that to last during the off-season doesn't instill any kind of confidence in me.

I do get a kick out of how people say "Well what if JR spends the dough and the guy doesn't live up to the hype?" LOL. Dem's the chances ya take, people...
The "Just-Wait-and-see-whos-available-in-July" marketing plan replaces last
years "Were-broke-but-still-competitive-support-us".
Obviously, the SOX couldnt come
right out and say WERE CUTTING PAYROLL (again), This new plan is genius,
because It Gives them a 7 Month Window to stall, and because the team
is Significantly hampered and weakened and has less a chance of being in contention come July.................they'll THEN say "If anyone thinks this team can catch (insert team here), your crazy", lets cut more payroll.
Genius.
"well were out of it, so lets get rid of more players"

anewman35
12-21-2004, 12:02 PM
Anewman says: "It's not win-win, though, really. What happens if he spends and spends and spends, and then the team sucks anyway? Fans won't come out, and he's losing tons of money."
Honestly I don't know exactly how to respond to this.

Heaven forbid that Uncle Jerry take ANY risk what - so - ever, even though the city and state GAVE him a new stadium!

Nine of the top ten spending teams in MLB last year had at least a winning record, I think the odds are good that even a dysfunctional organization like the White Sox couldn't screw that up if they spent enough. And me thinks the odds are very good that if they were to do something like this you'd have to beat the fans away with a stick.

Friends Of Uncle Jerry just don't 'get it,' do they?
No, Lip, you just don't get it. Once again, I'm not saying that I don't wish JR would take risk and spend more, but I'm saying that if I was in his shoes, I certianly wouldn't. Look from his standpoint: If he spends a ton of money, there's a quite real chance that the team would suck anyway, and he'd get blamed for it AND lose a lot of money. I know you don't care about his money, and neither do I, but he does, as is his right.

Oh, and Lip? Since when do you consider "having a winning record" to be important? I thought all that mattered was winning World Championships? Do I need to point out that the horrible horrible cheap and stupid White Sox had a winning record last year?

Mohoney
12-21-2004, 12:04 PM
Only the Mariners at $17 million had a higher NET PROFIT than our $12.8 million.

That profit has yet to be reinvested in this team. In fact, the ONLY thing we have done is SHED payroll.

I guess we can forget that $75 million payroll.

anewman35
12-21-2004, 12:05 PM
WERE CUTTING PAYROLL (again),
Once again, Hanger, failure to raise payroll as much as you like is NOT the same as cutting payroll.

anewman35
12-21-2004, 12:05 PM
I guess we can forget that $75 million payroll.
Why? Did they change the schedule so the season starts tomorrow?

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 12:21 PM
Once again, Hanger, failure to raise payroll as much as you like is NOT the same as cutting payroll.
Isnt it all just the same ?? The SOX are just being alot more CREATIVE
in the way theyre telling YOU how theyre NOT Going to Spend Money.
Difference is most SOX fans arent Fooled by this Con-Shell game.

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 12:31 PM
Look from his standpoint: If he spends a ton of money, there's a quite real chance that the team would suck anyway, and he'd get blamed for it AND lose a lot of money.

I think Lip gets it. Jerry HASNT spent the money and its Gotten him NOWHERE (2000) Why not try something DIFFERENT like SPENDING MONEY? I guarantee you, Not a single SOX fan is going to start a Thread saying "Jerry spends too much money, he needs to be cheaper".

Mohoney
12-21-2004, 12:35 PM
Why? Did they change the schedule so the season starts tomorrow?
No, but we're running out of FAs.

Pavano? Signed.
Ortiz? Signed.
Clement? Signed.
Lieber? Signed.
Jaret Wright? Signed.
Insert worthwhile FA Starter here? Signed.

The pattern is becoming repetitive.

anewman35
12-21-2004, 12:49 PM
I think Lip gets it. Jerry HASNT spent the money and its Gotten him NOWHERE (2000) Why not try something DIFFERENT like SPENDING MONEY? I guarantee you, Not a single SOX fan is going to start a Thread saying "Jerry spends too much money, he needs to be cheaper".
Yes, it would make the fans happy. And I'm a fan, and I would be happy. But from his standpoint, he's putting himself at a lot of personal risk to make OTHER people happy. All I know is, if I'm him, I wouldn't care about the fans either, especially seeing as most of them despise him.

SOXSINCE'70
12-21-2004, 12:53 PM
OK. 14, 17, 21, 27, 31, 37!!! :D:
Hike!!Hike!!:D: :D: :D:

BRDSR
12-21-2004, 01:31 PM
Only the Mariners at $17 million had a higher NET PROFIT than our $12.8 million.

That profit has yet to be reinvested in this team. In fact, the ONLY thing we have done is SHED payroll.

I guess we can forget that $75 million payroll.
Is no one else the least bit proud that we support the second most fiscally successful franchise in Major League Baseball. I sure as heck am!

Really though...it seems like we should be able to expect a payroll increase to go along with the financial success of last season and the ticket price increases for the upcoming season. Of course it's JRs money, and in most cases I coculdn't care less about what a stranger does with his money. But in this case I care a lot. But right now I don't think is the time to get upset. I'll give the White Sox brass until pitchers and catchers report to make something positive happen, and then I'll get upset.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 01:35 PM
Only the Mariners at $17 million had a higher NET PROFIT than our $12.8 million.

That profit has yet to be reinvested in this team. In fact, the ONLY thing we have done is SHED payroll.

I guess we can forget that $75 million payroll.OK, I'll do it...
You have a source for that?

Paulwny
12-21-2004, 02:45 PM
Yes, it would make the fans happy. And I'm a fan, and I would be happy. But from his standpoint, he's putting himself at a lot of personal risk to make OTHER people happy. All I know is, if I'm him, I wouldn't care about the fans either, especially seeing as most of them despise him.
The reason the fans despise him is his failure to take on any risk. If an owner spends money and the team sucks the fans will blame the players, see the Orioles, not the owner. JR has created this bad blood with the fans with his constant bottom line attitude and failure to even slightly over spend until the break when he looks at the standings and attendance.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 02:52 PM
The reason the fans despise him is his failure to take on any risk. If an owner spends money and the team sucks the fans will blame the players, see the Orioles, not the owner. JR has created this bad blood with the fans with his constant bottom line attitude and failure to even slightly over spend until the break when he looks at the standings and attendance.Actually, they did just that in 2001. Coming off a division title they increased payroll in an effort to try to get to the WS. They wound up losing money and finished in 3rd place. That worked so well I wonder why they haven't continued?

Paulwny
12-21-2004, 03:00 PM
Actually, they did just that in 2001. Coming off a division title they increased payroll in an effort to try to get to the WS. They wound up losing money and finished in 3rd place. That worked so well I wonder why they haven't continued?
That's what I'm saying, very few of us on this board blamed JR that year, we blamed the injuries. Now he's reverting back to his no risks philosphy. You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 03:03 PM
That's what I'm saying, very few of us on this board blamed JR that year, we blamed the injuries. Now he's reverting back to his no risks philosphy. You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.I wasn't here then, but I'll bet the same people who are ragging on JR now were ragging on him then. Just a hunch.

anewman35
12-21-2004, 03:04 PM
That's what I'm saying, very few of us on this board blamed JR that year, we blamed the injuries. Now he's reverting back to his no risks philosphy. You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.
You've got to be kidding, people here blame JR for everything. If your theory is true, how come JR gets blame for last season? It was injuries that sunk that team, not lack of talent.

Paulwny
12-21-2004, 03:11 PM
You've got to be kidding, people here blame JR for everything. If your theory is true, how come JR gets blame for last season? It was injuries that sunk that team, not lack of talent.
There were holes and question marks that were never addressed when the 2004 season started, #5 starter, 2nd base, cf, catcher, JR is to blame for this.

anewman35
12-21-2004, 03:14 PM
There were holes and question marks that were never addressed when the 2004 season started, #5 starter, 2nd base, cf, catcher, JR is to blame for this.
Did the 2001 team have no holes or question marks?

Mohoney
12-21-2004, 03:16 PM
OK, I'll do it...
You have a source for that?http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html

The last column in the chart represents operating income. Only Seattle at $17 million was more profitable last year.

Daver
12-21-2004, 03:18 PM
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html

The last column in the chart represents net profit. Only Seattle at $17 million was more profitable last year.
Forbes numbers are based on pure speculation.

Paulwny
12-21-2004, 03:20 PM
Did the 2001 team have no holes or question marks?
The only one that comes to mind was Alomar JR., at the start of the season. The fluke year of 2000 became apparent in 2001. This team was not as good as it looked on paper.

soxfan43
12-21-2004, 03:20 PM
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html

The last column in the chart represents operating income. Only Seattle at $17 million was more profitable last year.
that chart just proves that reinsdorf has money to spend. look at how many teams lost money but at least spent some money on players. JR could easily afford a solid starter and still make a decent profit for his stingy ass

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 03:21 PM
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html

The last column in the chart represents operating income. Only Seattle at $17 million was more profitable last year.Hmm...interesting. So all but one of the playoff teams LOST money in 2004. There's a recommendation for you.

Mohoney
12-21-2004, 03:21 PM
Forbes numbers are based on pure speculation.
This problem could easily be solved by MLB franchises by just opening up their books.

Until they do this, we have no choice but to go with a chart like this.

I trust Forbes magazine more than I trust MLB owners.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 03:26 PM
Forbes numbers are based on pure speculation."Pure speculation" might be overstating things a bit, but Daver is right in that these numbers come from estimates without the benefit of any actual knowledge of the true finances. That said, however, the Forbes people are pretty smart guys. The can make pretty good estimates of what things cost and the payroll numbers are published. I'd bet their total revenue and costs numbers are good to within 10% or so. Trouble is, that $12M is just about 10% of the total revenue stream. They certainly made money, but just how much is pretty uncertain.

Paulwny
12-21-2004, 03:30 PM
I wasn't here then, but I'll bet the same people who are ragging on JR now were ragging on him then. Just a hunch.Of course JR took some shots. The Clayton debates were an every day happening. Every week the following were berated, Wells, Singleton, Howry, Embree, Wright and "Fire Hydrant Durham and some I've forgotten.

Daver
12-21-2004, 03:32 PM
"Pure speculation" might be overstating things a bit, but Daver is right in that these numbers come from estimates without the benefit of any actual knowledge of the true finances. That said, however, the Forbes people are pretty smart guys. The can make pretty good estimates of what things cost and the payroll numbers are published. I'd bet their total revenue and costs numbers are good to within 10% or so. Trouble is, that $12M is just about 10% of the total revenue stream. They certainly made money, but just how much is pretty uncertain.
They also have no way of knowing what is being paid out in shared revenue from MLB, because those numbers are not made public, nor do they have an actual number for local media revenue. They are speculative numbers based on known quantities, that ignore the unknown quantities.

Mohoney
12-21-2004, 03:35 PM
Hmm...interesting. So all but one of the playoff teams LOST money in 2004.
Except for the team that won the World Series.

I'm not asking for an $85-100 million payroll. I know that it's not feasible. I'm just asking for an increase to about $75 million to bring Javier Vazquez, Odalis Perez, and David Eckstein here.

I have heard Reinsdorf say on several interviews that, as long as he breaks even, he would do anything possible to win. This team, according to a magazine that I feel is credible, made almost $13 million dollars last year.

Anybody that debates the conclusions made by Forbes Magazine is well within their rights to do so and pay no creedence to what I have to say. I don't hold anything against anybody that disagrees with me.

I just think that, if this team did indeed make this much money, some of it should be invested in talent when there is talent to be had.

I like the Dye signing, I like the Hermanson signing. I just want to see the shedded payroll from the Lee trade put to the best use possible, and not just "go into the coffers for July". If we don't make any more moves, there won't BE a July.

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 03:42 PM
They also have no way of knowing what is being paid out in shared revenue from MLB, because those numbers are not made public, nor do they have an actual number for local media revenue. They are speculative numbers based on known quantities, that ignore the unknown quantities.
Is there a chance that by the time the next Collective Bargaining Agreement/Strike/Lockout comes up, is there a chance all this will
be changed? or was this because of the monopoly baseball is allowed to have?

Daver
12-21-2004, 03:48 PM
Is there a chance that by the time the next Collective Bargaining Agreement/Strike/Lockout comes up, is there a chance all this will
be changed? or was this because of the monopoly baseball is allowed to have?
This has nothing to do with the anti trust exemption, MLB has no responsibility to anyone to reveal their revenue.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 03:52 PM
Except for the team that won the World Series.

I'm not asking for an $85-100 million payroll. I know that it's not feasible. I'm just asking for an increase to about $75 million to bring Javier Vazquez, Odalis Perez, and David Eckstein here.

I have heard Reinsdorf say on several interviews that, as long as he breaks even, he would do anything possible to win. This team, according to a magazine that I feel is credible, made almost $13 million dollars last year.

Anybody that debates the conclusions made by Forbes Magazine is well within their rights to do so and pay no creedence to what I have to say. I don't hold anything against anybody that disagrees with me.

I just think that, if this team did indeed make this much money, some of it should be invested in talent when there is talent to be had.

I like the Dye signing, I like the Hermanson signing. I just want to see the shedded payroll from the Lee trade put to the best use possible, and not just "go into the coffers for July". If we don't make any more moves, there won't BE a July.And just by coincidence, they've said they would be willing to go up to $75M. But to spend it just to spend it is crazy. You still have to spend it wisely. Rather than spend it on Jose Lima or someone like that, I'd rather they just sat on the money until mid-season. Every team has holes develop during the season that weren't forseeable at the start of the season. Without even checking, I'd bet that all the playoff teams made mid-season moves last year.

I'm pretty sure Kenny is working on another move, although it's always possible that it won't come off. IMO, the Vazquez deal seems most likely. That will bring payroll to over $70M. He's still going to need a 5th starter or a LH reliever to replace Garland or Marte, which would leave them near $75M.

jabrch
12-21-2004, 03:55 PM
Just don't bother playing the games. The results are predetermined - and it seems almost nobody has fun watching Sox baseball regardless of the results. So...I say we take our 90 losses and just cancel the season right now.

Mohoney
12-21-2004, 04:03 PM
And just by coincidence, they've said they would be willing to go up to $75M. But to spend it just to spend it is crazy. You still have to spend it wisely. Rather than spend it on Jose Lima or someone like that, I'd rather they just sat on the money until mid-season. Every team has holes develop during the season that weren't forseeable at the start of the season. Without even checking, I'd bet that all the playoff teams made mid-season moves last year.

I'm pretty sure Kenny is working on another move, although it's always possible that it won't come off. IMO, the Vazquez deal seems most likely. That will bring payroll to over $70M. He's still going to need a 5th starter or a LH reliever to replace Garland or Marte, which would leave them near $75M.
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't want to spend on a Jose Lima or an AJ Pierzynski, either. Of course every team is going to have holes.

But I would try anything possible to make sure that the holes are on the position player side as opposed to the pitching side.

Filling position player holes at the July deadline usually costs less in terms of minor league talent than filling holes on the pitching staff, and that is my real concern here.

To go into this season with a pitching staff as close to complete as possible seems like the best course of action.

Then again, I consider Jon Garland to be a hole. Many people here don't.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-21-2004, 04:05 PM
Just don't bother playing the games. The results are predetermined - and it seems almost nobody has fun watching Sox baseball regardless of the results. So...I say we take our 90 losses and just cancel the season right now.
Yes, but how do we know it wouldn't be 92 losses, or even 94?
:wink:

Now about the shape and color of those new seats... my colon was simply aghast at what the Sox are planning to do about fixing the sea of empty blue seats at U.S. Cellular Field...
:)

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 04:10 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't want to spend on a Jose Lima or an AJ Pierzynski, either. Of course every team is going to have holes.

But I would try anything possible to make sure that the holes are on the position player side as opposed to the pitching side.

Filling position player holes at the July deadline usually costs less in terms of minor league talent than filling holes on the pitching staff, and that is my real concern here.

To go into this season with a pitching staff as close to complete as possible seems like the best course of action.

Then again, I consider Jon Garland to be a hole. Many people here don't.I don't consider Garland a hole if he's the 5th starter. If you look at his stats, he's no worse that about 27th and as good as 17th in the AL in just about every pitching category you can think of. How many teams have a 5th starter with those numbers? For that matter, how many have a 4th starter with those numbers? If he's your THIRD starter, on the other hand...

LVSoxFan
12-21-2004, 04:24 PM
I don't consider Garland a hole if he's the 5th starter. If you look at his stats, he's no worse that about 27th and as good as 17th in the AL in just about every pitching category you can think of. How many teams have a 5th starter with those numbers? For that matter, how many have a 4th starter with those numbers? If he's your THIRD starter, on the other hand...
Totally agreed. If Garland's the fifth, we'll be okay IMO for th reasons you cite.

Tragg
12-21-2004, 04:30 PM
This has nothing to do with the anti trust exemption, MLB has no responsibility to anyone to reveal their revenue.
Private companies don't have to reveal just like we don't have to publically reveal our incomes

However, do the Packers, a public company, reveal? Do you now?
We're having issues down here with the Saints and them playing poor man.

Tragg
12-21-2004, 04:32 PM
I don't consider Garland a hole if he's the 5th starter. If you look at his stats, he's no worse that about 27th and as good as 17th in the AL in just about every pitching category you can think of. How many teams have a 5th starter with those numbers? For that matter, how many have a 4th starter with those numbers? If he's your THIRD starter, on the other hand... I think he's a big positive as a 5th starter, okay as a 4th starter, as long as our 5th starter is passable, which it hasn't been

Daver
12-21-2004, 04:34 PM
Private companies don't have to reveal just like we don't have to publically reveal our incomes

However, do the Packers, a public company, reveal? Do you now?
We're having issues down here with the Saints and them playing poor man.
The Packers are required to reveal to shareholders, not to the general public.

I don't know what to tell you about the Ain'ts, a good start might be getting rid of the peanut headed Jim Haslet, but that holds no guarantees.

:)

Tragg
12-21-2004, 04:38 PM
The Packers are required to reveal to shareholders, not to the general public.

I don't know what to tell you about the Ain'ts, a good start might be getting rid of the peanut headed Jim Haslet, but that holds no guarantees.

:)
They must be a closely held corporation, exempt from SEC rigors then.

Thanks for your insight, Daver
The playoff-bound Saints have a medicore coach, but a far worse front office; the issues here are financing the Saints, the multi-millions the taxpayers already give them, and the new stadium that we can't afford, but which we can't afford not to afford as the league would prefer them in Los Angeles