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View Full Version : Unbelievable. Seriously


michaelgarv
12-20-2004, 11:36 PM
I usualy just browse these forums but this offseason has been so unbelievable I just had to put the names down to see it for myself. I only say this because in my memory, I cannot recall the number of actual quality Starters that were either free agents or available via Trade.
Carl Pavano
J. Wright
Tim Hudson
Mark Mulder
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
J. Vasquez
Matt Clement
Burnett ( Rumored)
Odalis Perez
Kevin Millwood
It is just funny that our # 1 priority in the offseason was to get another Starter and we could not land any of these guys. Usually if This is your # 1 Priority in the off season, You hope that just a few of these names might be available. Seriously, Can anyone else recall when this many good pitchers were available in one off season?

stillz
12-20-2004, 11:45 PM
Still a glimmer of hope for Vasquez.. And I do think KW took an honest shot at Johnson and Wright and Clement. Your point is well taken though.. Why haven't they gotten a deal done with one of these excellent (if over-priced) hurlers? Ugh.

HomeFish
12-21-2004, 12:04 AM
We did get a .244 leadoff hitter, though.

serena
12-21-2004, 12:50 AM
It is remarkable, once you point it out!

The other big story, though, is how much pitching costs on the market now. Maybe Oakland would have held on to one of Hudson/Mulder if the going rate weren't so high.

And how many of those pitchers haven't or won't end up pitching for the Yankees/Red Sox? :angry: Out of the first 8 who have signed, been traded or are in the process of being traded, 6 went to (or in Vasquez's case, from) one of those teams. The Yankees payroll for pitching alone will be almost $100M; I haven't even tried to add up the Red Sox payroll.

OurBitchinMinny
12-21-2004, 01:20 AM
We did get a .244 leadoff hitter, though.
and it only cost a .300, 30, 100 guy! But we freed up all that money to....oh wait....put it back in JRs pocketbook. Make me eat my words KW

Baines2Raines
12-21-2004, 02:14 AM
I usualy just browse these forums but this offseason has been so unbelievable I just had to put the names down to see it for myself. I only say this because in my memory, I cannot recall the number of actual quality Starters that were either free agents or available via Trade.
Carl Pavano
J. Wright
Tim Hudson
Mark Mulder
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
J. Vasquez
Matt Clement
Burnett ( Rumored)
Odalis Perez
Kevin Millwood
It is just funny that our # 1 priority in the offseason was to get another Starter and we could not land any of these guys. Usually if This is your # 1 Priority in the off season, You hope that just a few of these names might be available. Seriously, Can anyone else recall when this many good pitchers were available in one off season?
Tell me how the White Sox can afford some of those players? $15 or so for Unit. In addition to the players it would cost to trade for him.

Pedro? Four year contract and with a bad shoulder. I can see the posts now.

Jarrett Wright finally had one good year. Is he worth that money? Plus will he be able to continue that success?

Clement and Pavano. Too costly Plus Pavano finally had a winning record in his contract year. Hmmm I'm guessing he'll have a 18-12 record with a 4 something ERA with the Yankees.

Mudler. Injuried. Didn't win his last seven starts last year with a 7 something ERA. Yeah let's trade for him.

Hudson. Clear, at least to most people, that Beane didn't want to trade him or Mulder to an AL team.

Vasquez. Do you really want him?

Millwood and O Perez are still out there.

Fredsox
12-21-2004, 05:22 AM
The point is excellent. We can't say there has not been the talent out there for us to acquire. We might not like the price, but the talent is available if we want to pay. When you own a major league team you need to jump in the pool and get wet. I don't think KW is gun-shy, I think he's willing to play, but clearly to this point he has not make the moves he's wanted to. Part of that is our inability to sell the Sox as a first-class team to play for. We need to do a better job of that.

SSN721
12-21-2004, 06:01 AM
I still think many of the pitchers on that list are vastly overrated after having the first good years in their career which, wow I cant beleive it, came on a contract year. What a shock. The market was very inflated and even with that I think KW has pretty much done as much as he could t land a few of them so far. For people who complain how stupid KW is for pissing away money needlessly they sure are taking him to task for not spending 9-10 mil a year on unproven starters with one good year. There are still a few out there. Millwood or Perez would be a nice Christmas present.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 09:10 AM
Tell me how the White Sox can afford some of those players? $15 or so for Unit. In addition to the players it would cost to trade for him.

Pedro? Four year contract and with a bad shoulder. I can see the posts now.

Jarrett Wright finally had one good year. Is he worth that money? Plus will he be able to continue that success?

Clement and Pavano. Too costly Plus Pavano finally had a winning record in his contract year. Hmmm I'm guessing he'll have a 18-12 record with a 4 something ERA with the Yankees.

Mudler. Injuried. Didn't win his last seven starts last year with a 7 something ERA. Yeah let's trade for him.

Hudson. Clear, at least to most people, that Beane didn't want to trade him or Mulder to an AL team.

Vasquez. Do you really want him?

Millwood and O Perez are still out there.I agree. My first reaction was that it was a bumper crop of FA pitchers, but when you start looking closer, every one of these guys has a wart or two. This time last year everybody was screaming that the Sox should have signed Sidney Ponson.

fquaye149
12-21-2004, 09:12 AM
I agree. My first reaction was that it was a bumper crop of FA pitchers, but when you start looking closer, every one of these guys has a wart or two. This time last year everybody was screaming that the Sox should have signed Sidney Ponson.
you don't belong in this thread if you aren't going to wail about how cheap and stupid the sox management is

voodoochile
12-21-2004, 09:12 AM
I agree. My first reaction was that it was a bumper crop of FA pitchers, but when you start looking closer, every one of these guys has a wart or two. This time last year everybody was screaming that the Sox should have signed Sidney Ponson.
How many pitchers in the league DON'T have a wart of two? 10? 15? Is there enough for one per team even?

Aside from the few true aces in this league, every pitcher has problems that will lead to them getting shelled occasionally. You take the good with the ad and build the best staff you can.

Mickster
12-21-2004, 09:14 AM
I agree. My first reaction was that it was a bumper crop of FA pitchers, but when you start looking closer, every one of these guys has a wart or two. This time last year everybody was screaming that the Sox should have signed Sidney Ponson.
While I agree that everyone on that list has "..a wart or two", the main problem is that our forth and fifth starters the past few years have been covered in warts. Any upgrade, even slight ones, help us close the gap that has essentially cost us the division the past couple of years...

infohawk
12-21-2004, 09:23 AM
I usualy just browse these forums but this offseason has been so unbelievable I just had to put the names down to see it for myself. I only say this because in my memory, I cannot recall the number of actual quality Starters that were either free agents or available via Trade.
Carl Pavano
J. Wright
Tim Hudson
Mark Mulder
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
J. Vasquez
Matt Clement
Burnett ( Rumored)
Odalis Perez
Kevin Millwood
It is just funny that our # 1 priority in the offseason was to get another Starter and we could not land any of these guys. Usually if This is your # 1 Priority in the off season, You hope that just a few of these names might be available. Seriously, Can anyone else recall when this many good pitchers were available in one off season?That is a pretty serious list. I would remove several names, however. I would remove Mulder only because the Sox didn't have the major-league ready pitching talent required by Oakland. Pedro wanted way, way too much money from the beginning. Randy Johnson was possible, but a long-shot. The jury is still out on Perez, Millwood, Vazquez and Burnett. We may end up with one of the first three.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 09:27 AM
How many pitchers in the league DON'T have a wart of two? 10? 15? Is there enough for one per team even?

Aside from the few true aces in this league, every pitcher has problems that will lead to them getting shelled occasionally. You take the good with the ad and build the best staff you can.There are big warts and there are small warts. Just to take Pavano as one example. Everyone seems to be drooling over him like he's Cy Young reincarnated. He had a career year in 2004 and a pretty good one in 2000. Beyond that he's alternated between mediocre and terrible. And this is the class of the FA market?

mweflen
12-21-2004, 09:30 AM
"I'm disappointed (Schoeneweis) and his agent did not accept the offer," Cooper said of the left-hander, who is represented by Scott Boras. "I wanted another crack at trying to see what we could do with him as a starter. "If he signs the deal, he's our fifth guy. I just hope now he can get the same opportunity somewhere else as a starter. He might be able to get more than was offered, but he might have to go to the bullpen.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041220&content_id=924524&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Looks like there will be plenty of warts at the fifth spot this season.

Iguana775
12-21-2004, 09:34 AM
Tell me how the White Sox can afford some of those players? $15 or so for Unit. In addition to the players it would cost to trade for him.

Pedro? Four year contract and with a bad shoulder. I can see the posts now.

Jarrett Wright finally had one good year. Is he worth that money? Plus will he be able to continue that success?

Clement and Pavano. Too costly Plus Pavano finally had a winning record in his contract year. Hmmm I'm guessing he'll have a 18-12 record with a 4 something ERA with the Yankees.

Mudler. Injuried. Didn't win his last seven starts last year with a 7 something ERA. Yeah let's trade for him.

Hudson. Clear, at least to most people, that Beane didn't want to trade him or Mulder to an AL team.

Vasquez. Do you really want him?

Millwood and O Perez are still out there.
hey, logical reasoning will not be tollerated!! lol

Hangar18
12-21-2004, 09:40 AM
We did get a .244 leadoff hitter, though.
All for the Cost of a .300 hitter, with a ton of Rbi's too!

DaveIsHere
12-21-2004, 09:41 AM
All for the Cost of a .300 hitter, with a ton of Rbi's too!

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: move on, nothing to see here excpet some whining

Mickster
12-21-2004, 09:45 AM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: move on, nothing to see here excpet some whiningI don't think so. The purpose of the trade was to free up salary for an upgraded SP. When Cooper stated that had Schoe accepted the Sox offer, he would have been the 5th starter, leads me to believe that KW is on Plan Z and running out of options quickly. Until the money saved by the deal is spent on a quality SP, the trade will, in my eyes, be considered a fleecing by MIL.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 09:54 AM
I don't think so. The purpose of the trade was to free up salary for an upgraded SP. When Cooper stated that had Schoe accepted the Sox offer, he would have been the 5th starter, leads me to believe that KW is on Plan Z and running out of options quickly. Until the money saved by the deal is spent on a quality SP, the trade will, in my eyes, be considered a fleecing by MIL.Not necessarily. It could be that Cooper was just working off of the rotation he had and his comments are taken out of context. Or it could be that they were anticipating trading Garland for (insert favorite name here) and planned to use SS to fill the #5 hole. I realize that analyzing the bejeebers out of every stray comment is what we do here, but let's not get TOO carried away.

Mickster
12-21-2004, 09:57 AM
Not necessarily. It could be that Cooper was just working off of the rotation he had and his comments are taken out of context. Or it could be that they were anticipating trading Garland for (insert favorite name here) and planned to use SS to fill the #5 hole. I realize that analyzing the bejeebers out of every stray comment is what we do here, but let's not get TOO carried away.
I certanily hope that I am wrong. If I'm not......

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 10:00 AM
I certanily hope that I am wrong. If I'm not......An awful lot of the deals that have been floated around involve trading Garland for somebody. IMO, the one remaining that's most likely is Garland to LA for Vazquez. That leaves a hole in the #5 spot. I think there are better options, but I could live with SS in the #5 spot.

Mickster
12-21-2004, 10:06 AM
An awful lot of the deals that have been floated around involve trading Garland for somebody. IMO, the one remaining that's most likely is Garland to LA for Vazquez. That leaves a hole in the #5 spot. I think there are better options, but I could live with SS in the #5 spot.If LA does send Vazquez to the Sox, I doubt the deal will contain any $$. The story HERE (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=531&e=1&u=/ap/20041221/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_johnson_megadeal) makes no mention of NYY sending any $$ to LA. In fact, it clearly mentions that LA will send over $$ to cover part of Kazuhisa Ishii's salary. I doubt LA will send $$ to NYY and also send $$ to the Sox in a possible Vazquez deal. Vazquez at $34 over 3 years is a no-no, in my opinion.

Am I reading something wrong????

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 10:24 AM
If LA does send Vazquez to the Sox, I doubt the deal will contain any $$. The story HERE (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=531&e=1&u=/ap/20041221/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_johnson_megadeal) makes no mention of NYY sending any $$ to LA. In fact, it clearly mentions that LA will send over $$ to cover part of Kazuhisa Ishii's salary. I doubt LA will send $$ to NYY and also send $$ to the Sox in a possible Vazquez deal. Vazquez at $34 over 3 years is a no-no, in my opinion.

Am I reading something wrong????This trade has undergone so many mutations, it's hard to know what's going on. One story even quoted someone from the Dodgers as saying the players mentioned in other stories were wrong.:?: I guess we'll have to wait and see. Vazquez is due $10.5M in 2005. Subtracting Garland's $3.4M leaves "only" $8.1M, which might be tolerable. I believe it goes up about $1M each year, which might also be tolerable. Remember, Konerko's money comes off the books after 2005, and he's said he would be willing to structure his contract to be affordable. (Imagine that!) Kenny really wants Vazquez and he's got something like $6M left over from trading Lee. That means he only has to get approval for another $2M from Uncle Jerry. It certainly would be out of character, but I wouldn't rule it out. Who would have believed he would give Garcia a 3-yr, $27M deal?

bobj4400
12-21-2004, 10:27 AM
Clement and Pavano. Too costly Plus Pavano finally had a winning record in his contract year. Hmmm I'm guessing he'll have a 18-12 record with a 4 something ERA with the Yankees.

Is this a bad thing? 18-12 with a 4 something on our staff in Coors Lite would be #1 or #2 material.

Palehose13
12-21-2004, 10:47 AM
The off season isn't over yet and there are still guys out there to be signed or traded. Stay off the ledge...

Regarding Podsednik, he is gonna be a great pick up for the Sox. He is just what this team needs.

Is it just me or was everyone screaming to trade Carlos before last season?

DaveIsHere
12-21-2004, 10:49 AM
Is it just me or was everyone screaming to trade Carlos before last season?Are you suggesting that some people are like:

:windsock:


That cant be, no one here makes hypocritical statements every day

fquaye149
12-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Is this a bad thing? 18-12 with a 4 something on our staff in Coors Lite would be #1 or #2 material.
18-12 on the yankees equals 5-21 on most every other team.

Lip Man 1
12-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Baines2Raines says: "Tell me how the White Sox can afford some of those players?"
Simple....open checkbook, fill in a number...sign.

See wasn't that easy? 'It's time,' for Uncle Jerry to stop bitching about fan support and take some risks like all other business owners have to do every so often.

Lip

LVSoxFan
12-21-2004, 11:00 AM
Let's not lose sight of the real issue here: the hole in the Sox lineup since the beginning of the 2004 season was the fifth starter. Experiment after experiment failed (Arnie Munoz? Ouch!) and that guaranteed loss every five games definitely put us in a hole we'd never climb out of. Even moving to a four-man rotation didn't last long.

Remember that we've got two A-list starters: Buehrle and Garcia. Contreras is feast-or-famine and Garland is a head case who can't seem to pitch a game without giving up the Big Inning.

Even with a fifth starter we're loaded with potential, but not a lot of sure-thing. Now Schonie's outta here and everybody on the FA market has made their move, unless we manage to land Perez. They way this is going, I'm not sensing that urgency, and I'm prepping myself for another year of experimenting in the fifth starter position (starting with Jason Grilli), with the out clause that oh, well, KW can always make a midseason trade to fill that hole if The Experiment doesn't work out.

Too late! This season's gonna be determined for the Sox before spring training begins, not at the freakin' All Star Break! We tried that last year, remember?

Palehose13
12-21-2004, 11:43 AM
Too late! This season's gonna be determined for the Sox before spring training begins, not at the freakin' All Star Break! We tried that last year, remember?Really? All the other FA's and non-tendered have signed with teams already? There is absolutely no one out there to get?

SOXSINCE'70
12-21-2004, 12:57 PM
and it only cost a .300, 30, 100 guy! But we freed up all that money to....oh wait....put it back in JRs pocketbook. Make me eat my words KW
I'm hoping things change,but right now,the arrow for the Twinks,Tigers and Tribe is pointing decidedly upwards.The arrow for the Sox is sinking quickly.

The summer of 2005 may be a looooonnnnngggg "Cruel Summer"
(Bananrama,1984,yet another "Cruel Summer" for Sox fans).

OEO Magglio
12-21-2004, 01:00 PM
I'm hoping things change,but right now,the arrow for the Twinks,Tigers and Tribe is pointing decidedly upwards.The arrow for the Sox is sinking quickly.

The summer of 2005 may be a looooonnnnngggg "Cruel Summer"
(Bananrama,1984,yet another "Cruel Summer" for Sox fans).
I still want to know what either the Tigers or Indians have done to surpass the sox??

fquaye149
12-21-2004, 02:46 PM
what they did is be rival teams in the same division of a team whose fans call unabashed extreme pessimism being "superiorly knowledgable" fans