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thedudeabides
12-20-2004, 04:47 PM
ESPN 790 in South Florida said sources within A.J. Pierzynski's camp say that the recently released catcher is deciding between two teams with similar offers: the White Sox and the Rays.

I'm not sure I'm even happy to hear this.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2004, 04:49 PM
ESPN 790 in South Florida said sources within A.J. Pierzynski's camp say that the recently released catcher is deciding between two teams with similar offers: the White Sox and the Rays.

I'm not sure I'm even happy to hear this.Go Rays.

A.T. Money
12-20-2004, 04:51 PM
I'll take AJ. A good offensive catcher with some clutch hitting abilities.

And that stuff about him being bad with pitchers is total BS.

When he was with Minnesota, all he did was work the pitchers all over the place against us. He knew how to work the pitchers.

Also, I'm sure his loyalties to Minny has dwindled. Most of those guys he came up with are gone now, except for Hunter, Santana, and Rivas.

mcfish
12-20-2004, 04:54 PM
I'll take AJ. A good offensive catcher with some clutch hitting abilities.

And that stuff about him being bad with pitchers is total BS.

When he was with Minnesota, all he did was work the pitchers all over the place against us. He knew how to work the pitchers.

Also, I'm sure his loyalties to Minny has dwindled. Most of those guys he came up with are gone now, except for Hunter, Santana, and Rivas.If he's so valuable, why have two teams gotten rid of him in the last 2 years? Why did SF just cut him with no compensation whatsoever when they traded Joe Nathan for him last year?

Wealz
12-20-2004, 04:55 PM
I'm can't believe there's even debate over the merits of adding Pierzynski. Davis and Burke would be the worst catching combination in the league.

eshunn2001
12-20-2004, 04:56 PM
The next time I hear anything about him, I really hope it's him signing with Tampa Bay.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2004, 04:56 PM
I'm can't believe there's even debate over the merits of adding Pierzynski. Davis and Burke would be the worst catching combination in the league.Until you see Pierzinski and Burke. What's the point of signing a guy with lousy defensive skills at a defensive position?

Wealz
12-20-2004, 04:57 PM
If he's so valuable, why have two teams gotten rid of him in the last 2 years? Why did SF just cut him with no compensation whatsoever when they traded Joe Nathan for him last year?
Put it this way, do you think Davis or Burke could have been traded for Nathan?

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2004, 04:59 PM
Put it this way, do you think Davis or Burke could have been traded for Nathan?So the logic is, because SF made a bad trade, we should imitate them?

MRKARNO
12-20-2004, 05:01 PM
I really hope that offer is 1 year 2 million

Wealz
12-20-2004, 05:02 PM
Until you see Pierzinski and Burke. What's the point of signing a guy with lousy defensive skills at a defensive position?
Pierzynski is better defensively than Davis. He's an average receiver and an average thrower. Catcher was a defensive position. It isn't anymore especially in the A.L. and especially at the cell.

balboner
12-20-2004, 05:04 PM
The difference between A.J. Pierzynski to Ben Davis/Burke is similar to the difference among Jeff Kent and Willie Harris. A.J. is an above average MLB catcher, while Davis/Burke should never be starting for a MLB team. It's becoming obvious we won't sign a big name 5th starter, so we need to try and fill other glaring holes with competent players.

BTW, Hawk always said that A.J. was the best game calling catcher we faced.

Wealz
12-20-2004, 05:04 PM
So the logic is, because SF made a bad trade, we should imitate them?
If you think Davis and Burke are better options than Pierzynski .... I don't know what to say.

mcfish
12-20-2004, 05:06 PM
Put it this way, do you think Davis or Burke could have been traded for Nathan?Nope, but I don't think that A.J. for Nathan is a fair trade either. I would rather get a 3B and let Davis/Burke catch.

voodoochile
12-20-2004, 05:13 PM
Nope, but I don't think that A.J. for Nathan is a fair trade either. I would rather get a 3B and let Davis/Burke catch.
Now this I disagree with. There is way more upside to Crede than either Burke or Davis. I don't know that the kid will ever truly click, but he at least has that potential while neither of our current catchers do.

benjamin
12-20-2004, 05:15 PM
Pierzynski is better defensively than Davis. He's an average receiver and an average thrower. Catcher was a defensive position. It isn't anymore especially in the A.L. and especially at the cell.If catching was a defensive position, then why is Miguel Olivo not still with the Sox?

Offensive statistics may be the most visible, but they are not even the tip of the iceburg when it comes to catchers' worth.

There is a reason why Sandy started every time Buehrle pitched early in the season. Then Burke came up and provided another option. Catchers who are poor at calling games and otherwise make themselves undesirable battery mates to the pitching staff do far more harm than any upgrade they might provide offensively.

The difference offensively between A.J. and Davis/Burke is minimal when compared to their respective abilities on defense and in the clubhouse.

mcfish
12-20-2004, 05:15 PM
Now this I disagree with. There is way more upside to Crede than either Burke or Davis. I don't know that the kid will ever truly click, but he at least has that potential while neither of our current catchers do.Alright, but I still personally wouldn't want to see Pierzynski on the Sox at all. I can't see anything but problems coming from that.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2004, 05:21 PM
Pierzynski is better defensively than Davis. He's an average receiver and an average thrower. Catcher was a defensive position. It isn't anymore especially in the A.L. and especially at the cell.I don't believe he is. I see him as below average defensively, with a below average arm. And catcher is the most defensively critical position on the whole team. Sorry, catcher still is and always will be primarily a defensive position. That's not to say you can tolerate a .150 hitter catching, but I'd much rather have a solid defensive catcher hitting .220 than anything Pierzynski brings to the table.

voodoochile
12-20-2004, 05:21 PM
Alright, but I still personally wouldn't want to see Pierzynski on the Sox at all. I can't see anything but problems coming from that.
I hesitate to believe anything I read in the media regarding players. I've seen too many "horrible people" come in and do a great job (Dennis Rodman, Albert Belle). If we believe everything we read in the newspaper about players, then the Sox should have traded Frank years ago...

mcfish
12-20-2004, 05:25 PM
I hesitate to believe anything I read in the media regarding players. I've seen too many "horrible people" come in and do a great job (Dennis Rodman, Albert Belle). If we believe everything we read in the newspaper about players, then the Sox should have traded Frank years ago...I don't know, there never seemed to be any misinformation about Dennis Rodman. The Bulls knew exactly what they were getting and he met or exceeded expectations both on and off the court.

nodiggity59
12-20-2004, 05:27 PM
Before one more person says Pierz is a bad catcher, I want to actually see a scouting report. I have come to expect that from this board and the amount of claims about the guy's defense without any kind of stat or link is holding this conversation back.

nodiggity59
12-20-2004, 05:31 PM
For example, I read this about him on ESPN (perhaps not the most credible source, but still a SOURCE):

"The veteran catcher also has made significant strides defensively, to the point where he's one of the league's best behind the plate. He's exceptionally good at blocking low pitches, has a better-than-average arm and calls a solid game."

Hard to believe he's really that bad with this kind of a report :?:

HomeFish
12-20-2004, 05:34 PM
Its too good to be true if the Sox have in fact made him an offer he is considering. Still, I think that, given recent patterns, Tampa Bay will outbid us.

Yeah, TAMPA BAY. :angry:

Chisox003
12-20-2004, 05:37 PM
I can't see how this could be a bad deal..Hes a .300 hitter with some pop, a good defensive catcher and adds a little additude to a rather dull team..Davis proved a few times last year that he cant catch Contreras forkball, and plus hes a lifetime .200 hitter...Burke spent his entire career in the minors, but he is a decent backup...Pierzynski is a great signing

voodoochile
12-20-2004, 05:39 PM
I don't know, there never seemed to be any misinformation about Dennis Rodman. The Bulls knew exactly what they were getting and he met or exceeded expectations both on and off the court.
That's my point. If the guy can perform on the field, who cares what they do away from the team.

SoxxoS
12-20-2004, 05:41 PM
I don't believe he is. I see him as below average defensively, with a below average arm. And catcher is the most defensively critical position on the whole team. Sorry, catcher still is and always will be primarily a defensive position. That's not to say you can tolerate a .150 hitter catching, but I'd much rather have a solid defensive catcher hitting .220 than anything Pierzynski brings to the table.
In a good offensive lineup, I would agree. Last year, any production from Olivo/Davis/Alomar/Burke/Grandma was bonus. Unfortunately, this year we are average at best until proven otherwise. Looking at the lineup as a pessimist- I see a Rowand, who could of had a career last year, Crede, a guy that has had about 2 good months in his career, with no signs of consistancy...Podsednik, yee of the under .320 OBP, Frank Thomas, who has an ankle problem that might not be 100%, Uribe, who is maddingly inconsistant...Harris, who's best attribute is somthing we have "heard" all about (speed), and Burke/Davis who might hit .240 if we are lucky.

That lineup screams we need some offense from somewhere, including the catcher position.

A.T. Money
12-20-2004, 05:41 PM
If he's so valuable, why have two teams gotten rid of him in the last 2 years? Why did SF just cut him with no compensation whatsoever when they traded Joe Nathan for him last year?
Minny traded him because they had Mauer coming. They weren't going to be able to afford them both.

And I don't know what the SF deal was, but you shouldn't believe everything you read. They have Matheny, and I guess they feel he's an upgrade.

Wealz
12-20-2004, 05:43 PM
I don't believe he is. I see him as below average defensively, with a below average arm. And catcher is the most defensively critical position on the whole team. Sorry, catcher still is and always will be primarily a defensive position. That's not to say you can tolerate a .150 hitter catching, but I'd much rather have a solid defensive catcher hitting .220 than anything Pierzynski brings to the table.
Why is catcher primarily a defensive position? The stolen base has been out of favor for years now with the smaller parks and hulkish monsters hitting the ball. Besides, I refuse to believe his any worse defensively than what we have.

SOXit2EM
12-20-2004, 05:47 PM
I really don't see a problem with signing AJ, as long as we still find another good starter. The guy isn't as bad as the media makes him out to be. :smile:

munchman33
12-20-2004, 05:50 PM
BTW, Hawk always said that A.J. was the best game calling catcher we faced.
I forgot about that.

voodoochile
12-20-2004, 05:54 PM
Why is catcher primarily a defensive position? The stolen base has been out of favor for years now with the smaller parks and hulkish monsters hitting the ball. Besides, I refuse to believe his any worse defensively than what we have.
Well, they do handle the ball more than any other person on the field save the pitcher. They also are responsible for calling pitches, setting the defense and protecting the most important base on the field.

It isn't just throwing guys out at second.

BRDSR
12-20-2004, 05:58 PM
I'm of the camp that says that signing AJ would be a significant upgrade to our catching corps and that I'd be willing to give him a chance in a White Sox uniform even though he's been a jerk in the past. I'm assuming he will get a 1 year contract in the 1.5-2.5 million dollar range. This still leaves at least 3.5 million left from the Lee trade, and i don't know about anyone else but if every single dollar of that 6 million is not in the payroll by April 4th, I will be livid.:angry: Signing AJ would probably put us out of the running to sign/trade for a high priced starter, but this doesn't mean we can't sign a free agent starter for considerably less. Some possibilities would be:

Omar Daal
Jose Lima
Esteban Loaiza
Derek Lowe
Aaron Sele
Ismael Valdez
Jamey Wright

None of these guys are on the same level as Clement or Perez, but IMO they would all complete a rotation that would still look pretty good and maybe leave room left over to sign a 2B/Util man. If the Sox took care of catcher and 2B and signed a pitcher that you could count on having an ERA from 4.5-5 while keeping the solid bullpen intact, I'd still be real happy with this offseason

Jurr
12-20-2004, 05:59 PM
Nope, but I don't think that A.J. for Nathan is a fair trade either. I would rather get a 3B and let Davis/Burke catch.But, alas, the thing I continuously say around here is that you can't see that kind of stuff ahead of time. Nobody knew Joe Nathan was going to come over from the NL to the AL and be a dominant closer? Pierzynski was a PROVEN talent (the word that tons of people love to use), and it seemed reasonable.

Willie Harris may one day become an absolute stud, and I hope it's with us. Same for Cotts, Adkins, Diaz, Podsednik, and all of those guys. Guys don't become PROVEN until they get a couple good years to develop at the big league level. Only superstar players come right out of the minors and start killing the ball or pitching lights out.

Jurr
12-20-2004, 06:02 PM
I just saw Derek Lowe's name in that list of pitchers a few posts back. Lowe's looking for 48 mil over 4 years. Guess who his agent is. I'd love Lowe 300 million times more than Matt Clement (who's going to be a disappointment this year, by the way), but there's no way we could get him. I can't believe he's asking for so much cashola.


I'm so glad we didn't get Clement. He's going to fold like a tent under the pressure of being Boston's #2 guy. He couldn't handle being the Cubs' #4 guy.

johnny_mostil
12-20-2004, 06:04 PM
I'm can't believe there's even debate over the merits of adding Pierzynski. Davis and Burke would be the worst catching combination in the league.
There isn't a debate over merit. White Sox fans just hate A. J. Pierzynski. It would be like asking Bears fans about signing some Packer wideout.

1917
12-20-2004, 06:05 PM
Let me ask you this...if AJ wasn't such a jerkoff, would you want him based on his ablities? I think I would....we can get a number 5 established pitcher cheap

dcb33
12-20-2004, 06:06 PM
There isn't a debate over merit. White Sox fans just hate A. J. Pierzynski. It would be like asking Bears fans about signing some Packer wideout.Are you kidding me? I love the Bears and would take Donald Driver or Javon Walker in a heartbeat over what we have now...

I'd also take Pierzynski. Why not? He would make the bottom third of our lineup a little less brutal. I also doubt Davis and Burke could put up acceptable numbers over an entire season...

johnny_mostil
12-20-2004, 06:07 PM
Are you kidding me? I love the Bears and would take Donald Driver or Javon Walker in a heartbeat over what we have now...
I meant mouthy Packer wideout.

OEO Magglio
12-20-2004, 06:10 PM
Kenny said he was going to meet personally with A.J. before deciding anything with him. If that meeting went well and kenny talked to some of his players and they were all for it, then I'd love to have Aj. He's a prick there is no doubt about that, however he might be one of those guys you love on your team and hate him when you face him. There is no doubting he's a huge upgrade over what we have and he's one of the better catchers in the league, Aj would be a great addition it it doesn't stir up the clubhouse.

A.T. Money
12-20-2004, 06:20 PM
I hope he does piss people off.

The White Sox need some fire. This is exactly what Guillen brings to the table, and I think AJ will reinforce that.

We need to have chips on our shoulders.

Chisox003
12-20-2004, 06:24 PM
I hope he does piss people off.

The White Sox need some fire. This is exactly what Guillen brings to the table, and I think AJ will reinforce that.

We need to have chips on our shoulders.
Exactly...The more I think about it the better it sounds..This would be a GREAT signing!

MRKARNO
12-20-2004, 06:29 PM
I hope he does piss people off.

The White Sox need some fire. This is exactly what Guillen brings to the table, and I think AJ will reinforce that.

We need to have chips on our shoulders. If I thought he could consistantly post offensive seasons like his 2003, I'd be with you, but I just dont have a lot of confidence in his ability to be a very productive hitter. I could live with his subpar defense and his attitude if he did.

ma-gaga
12-20-2004, 06:30 PM
gawd. If he signs with the W.Sox, I'll renounce my Baseball-Reference sponsership. Or at least give credit to doublem23, or point it towards Wealz's blog or something...

He'd be an offensive upgrade for 20 teams. He gets under peoples' skin. The Twins made a lucky steal/trade of Nathan + prospects for AJ. There's NO WAY they knew that Nathan could do what he did. Maybe in their wildest dreams, but I'd be shocked that they could possibly project that type of success.

I guess it depends on the price. For $4MM AJ is a good catcher. The Giants would have had to pay more than that thru arbitration. As a non-tendered FA he'll probably get a little less, so he should be a steal for whomever picks him up.

Love him if he's on your team, hate him if you have to play against him.

:gulp:

mdep524
12-20-2004, 06:45 PM
I hope he does piss people off.

The White Sox need some fire. This is exactly what Guillen brings to the table, and I think AJ will reinforce that.

We need to have chips on our shoulders.
I was initially completely against a Pierzynski signing... but I could see an upside. It's a risk, no doubt. But nothing with Davis/Burke is even close to a sure bet anyway.

My one question is this: Would Mark Buehrle be able to comfortably pitch to AJ? MB's relationship with his catcher is very important to him. If he can't work well with AJ, then the Sox shouldn't sign him.

batmanZoSo
12-20-2004, 06:59 PM
ESPN 790 in South Florida said sources within A.J. Pierzynski's camp say that the recently released catcher is deciding between two teams with similar offers: the White Sox and the Rays.

I'm not sure I'm even happy to hear this.
Now if he chooses Tampa, it's safe to saw we have problems. He drove in 88 runs last year, didn't he? Hey, if we lose Maggs and Lee, we can replace that with a more balanced attack that isn't just heavy in the middle. A good hitting catcher is the perfect way to achieve that. If Crede picks it up a little bit as well (at least .265 with 25+ homers, which isn't asking a lot), we'll be in good shape. But I really don't want to go into the year with Crede a big question mark AND nothing going for us at catcher.

Shingotime!!
12-20-2004, 07:20 PM
I was initially completely against a Pierzynski signing... but I could see an upside. It's a risk, no doubt. But nothing with Davis/Burke is even close to a sure bet anyway.

My one question is this: Would Mark Buehrle be able to comfortably pitch to AJ? MB's relationship with his catcher is very important to him. If he can't work well with AJ, then the Sox shouldn't sign him.
Dont some teams like to keep three catchers? Burke can catch Buehrle. Davis can catch Contrearas. And Pierzynski can handle the rest.

soxwon
12-20-2004, 07:34 PM
ESPN 790 in South Florida said sources within A.J. Pierzynski's camp say that the recently released catcher is deciding between two teams with similar offers: the White Sox and the Rays.

I'm not sure I'm even happy to hear this.

its not as if we havent ever had any BADBOYS on this team.
albert belle, david wells etc

Tragg
12-20-2004, 07:41 PM
There isn't a debate over merit..
True - we should all be able to agree that .330 OBP with no power is mediocre (at best) offensive production.

mdep524
12-20-2004, 07:50 PM
True - we should all be able to agree that .330 OBP with no power is mediocre (at best) offensive production.:weewillie
Hey, are you raggin' on me, Tragg? Because I have other skills you know, like dancing for the general manager.

nodiggity59
12-20-2004, 07:51 PM
True - we should all be able to agree that .330 OBP with no power is mediocre (at best) offensive production.
How would you characterize Davis' production? Or Burke's, considering his limited playing time last year, low RBI #s, and dismal AAA performance?

soltrain21
12-20-2004, 08:01 PM
My one question is this: Would Mark Buehrle be able to comfortably pitch to AJ? MB's relationship with his catcher is very important to him. If he can't work well with AJ, then the Sox shouldn't sign him.

Cut Davis loose and let Burke handle Mark. Or keep Burke and Davis and let Burke catch Mark and play a little third too.


I don't like the idea of carrying 3 catchers again, but Burke can kind of play a super role.

Tragg
12-20-2004, 08:02 PM
How would you characterize Davis' production? Or Burke's, considering his limited playing time last year, low RBI #s, and dismal AAA performance?Not very good; but I cannot jump on a bandwagon to spend SCARCE Sox resources on more mediocrity, because that won't help us win either.

What will help us win is to harness those resources and invest in a REAL baseball player, like a starting pitcher of quality.


OR we could have given PITT a little bit better bag of balls than Oak gave them and invested in Kendall a catcher who really can hit.


And FWIW, given the choice I WOULD prefer DAvis to AJ because AJ's defense is deplorable and you need defense from the catcher

In most cases, I think teams are better off with a Mark Johnson for the minimum than spending on catchers because the offensive production from a "good hitting catcher" isn't worth their high price; so just take defense, which is more important from a catcher than any other position, and which is inexpensive for some reason

MHOUSE
12-20-2004, 08:23 PM
I was pretty content going into the season with Davis and Burke as our catchers. Davis had a hot streak last year where he tore it up and proved to be pretty clutch. Burke hit .333 catching about 1/3 of the game last year. They had almost zero power production (6 HR 31 RBI between them), but I don't recall either being really awful defensively.

Pierzinski would be an offensive upgrade and (in our lineup?) a lefty bat. Why not give him a chance? Minnesota had Mauer coming and San Fran had lost Santiago. That trade made sense and nobody knew Nathan would immediately become a lights-out closer. The only thing I question is why San Fran was so quick to release him without signing Matheny yet and why we're duking it out with TAMPA BAY to sign him. Something fishy there......

hose
12-20-2004, 08:31 PM
If the Sox were dealing from a position of strength with their catching situation I would take a pass on AJ.

The fact is the Sox probably have the worse catching in MLB and at the very least AJ's bat is pretty solid .

His numbers will rebound against AL Central pitching , plus I think he is going to try and clear up his tarnished reputation.

He may be a jerk, but I think he has enough pride to prove his critics wrong, look for a huge rebound season wherever he ends up at.

Daver
12-20-2004, 08:37 PM
If the Sox were dealing from a position of strength with their catching situation I would take a pass on AJ.

The fact is the Sox probably have the worse catching in MLB and at the very least AJ's bat is pretty solid .

His numbers will rebound against AL Central pitching , plus I think he is going to try and clear up his tarnished reputation.

He may be a jerk, but I think he has enough pride to prove his critics wrong, look for a huge rebound season wherever he ends up at.
If your team is relying on it's catcher for his bat in the AL it has huge problems elsewhere.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-20-2004, 08:43 PM
I hear nothing but bad things about him. I realize the Twins moved him because they had Mauer ( sic ) coming up, but what about San Fran? He's got a bad rap. Keep away from him.

OurBitchinMinny
12-20-2004, 08:49 PM
His personality rubs teammates the wrong way. Is he an uprgrade over the current situation? Yes and having a decent lefty bat in the lineup is never a bad thing. But he was not well liked by many sox players when he was on the twins. Many twins didnt like him either. He might screw up the clubhouse. But on the plus side, he can hit. He will have a chip on his shoulder against the twins and probably pissed because he got released. If the price is right do it, but not at the expense of solidifying the rotation

SoxxoS
12-20-2004, 08:50 PM
If your team is relying on it's catcher for his bat in the AL it has huge problems elsewhere.
We do.

hose
12-20-2004, 08:55 PM
If your team is relying on it's catcher for his bat in the AL it has huge problems elsewhere.Yes the Sox do have huge problems elsewhere as you well know.

Harris, Crede, and Davis together could very easily all go hitless for 5 or 6 straight games.
The only upside is Jose isn't added to the mix anymore. The Sox need some type of offensive production from the catcher to make up for these other holes.

It's 15 minutes before closing time and even AJ is starting to look good. It's a sad state, but our catching situation is what it is....pathetic.

Mike Mattheny was available , so was Henry Blanco. I would love to have either one of those guys behind the plate.

c4birdiemaker
12-20-2004, 09:12 PM
i think ur right. a little fire is in order. reggie and munson hated each other and they won 3 ws in a row. paulie will not allow anyone on this team to operate like an idiot.I hope he does piss people off.

The White Sox need some fire. This is exactly what Guillen brings to the table, and I think AJ will reinforce that.

We need to have chips on our shoulders.

c4birdiemaker
12-20-2004, 09:29 PM
Yes the Sox do have huge problems elsewhere as you well know.

Harris, Crede, and Davis together could very easily all go hitless for 5 or 6 straight games.
The only upside is Jose isn't added to the mix anymore. The Sox need some type of offensive production from the catcher to make up for these other holes.

It's 15 minutes before closing time and even AJ is starting to look good. It's a sad state, but our catching situation is what it is....pathetic.

Mike Mattheny was available , so was Henry Blanco. I would love to have either one of those guys behind the plate.what about posada? we could get him cheap i believe and everyone here on east coast seems to think that the jankees are gonna steal v-tek anyway. boras is gonna use ny to drive up varitek and if yanks can trade posada, they could force boston to either to sign v-tek for 5yrs 55mil plus no trade or risk losing him. the yankees have slowly gone away from their teams of the late 90's just like everyone else, but it looks like there is some low hanging fruit in ny. if it comes down to overpaying a #3 starter or gettin a great catcher for 5 yrs...i'll take jorge

OurBitchinMinny
12-20-2004, 09:32 PM
what about posada? we could get him cheap i believe and everyone here on east coast seems to think that the jankees are gonna steal v-tek anyway. boras is gonna use ny to drive up varitek and if yanks can trade posada, they could force boston to either to sign v-tek for 5yrs 55mil plus no trade or risk losing him. the yankees have slowly gone away from their teams of the late 90's just like everyone else, but it looks like there is some low hanging fruit in ny. if it comes down to overpaying a #3 starter or gettin a great catcher for 5 yrs...i'll take jorge
you really think this team would pony up to pay for posada. The yanks would have to take most of his salary which means we would have to give up a lot in a trade. Hell id love to have posada, but thats just not realistic IMO

c4birdiemaker
12-20-2004, 09:46 PM
we paid 14 mil for maggs. is lee's 8 mil already spent? i just get the feeling over here that varitek is gettin sick and tired of being so far apart in negotiations for so long. if he gets a no trade that means manny's no trade kicks in and the red sox won't relinquish that flexability. also the sox aren't meeting boras's financial demands either. they are 2 mil per year apart. the sox and yanks do this behind the scenes gamesmanship all the time. i also thought we could take advantage of our past dealings with cashman. just dreaming here. jorge's a real pro l8r.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2004, 10:05 PM
In a good offensive lineup, I would agree. Last year, any production from Olivo/Davis/Alomar/Burke/Grandma was bonus. Unfortunately, this year we are average at best until proven otherwise. Looking at the lineup as a pessimist- I see a Rowand, who could of had a career last year, Crede, a guy that has had about 2 good months in his career, with no signs of consistancy...Podsednik, yee of the under .320 OBP, Frank Thomas, who has an ankle problem that might not be 100%, Uribe, who is maddingly inconsistant...Harris, who's best attribute is somthing we have "heard" all about (speed), and Burke/Davis who might hit .240 if we are lucky.

That lineup screams we need some offense from somewhere, including the catcher position.If you look at it that pessimistically, the team is so bad that the best you can hope for from AJ is to move the team from 5th to 4th. Why bother?

HomeFish
12-20-2004, 10:19 PM
If you look at it that pessimistically, the team is so bad that the best you can hope for from AJ is to move the team from 5th to 4th. Why bother?

Bragging rights over KC. Have we forgotten how annoying Royals fans get?

wdelaney72
12-20-2004, 10:25 PM
Bringing in AJis like our extensions with Uribe and Timo Perez. It means ZERO unless we upgrade our starting pitching. That keeps looking more and more unikely, so I could care less if Kenny signs AJ.

c4birdiemaker
12-20-2004, 10:33 PM
Bringing in AJis like our extensions with Uribe and Timo Perez. It means ZERO unless we upgrade our starting pitching. That keeps looking more and more unikely, so I could care less if Kenny signs AJ.wade miller just became available

SoxxoS
12-20-2004, 10:43 PM
If you look at it that pessimistically, the team is so bad that the best you can hope for from AJ is to move the team from 5th to 4th. Why bother?
Now that is just being rediculous.:o: :smile: I am not a pessimist, I am saying looking at that lineup from that perspective (although not all players will be bad) we need some offensive help from any position, and catcher would be great.

soxfan43
12-20-2004, 10:43 PM
he wouldn't be a bad option, as long as the docs do their homework on him. he was at least a #3 before he had the injury problems. But they could sign aj and miller most likely.

RDubbs1906
12-20-2004, 10:47 PM
I am ashamed of the sox fans that want anything to do with AJ Pierzynski! He is an A$$! I am proud of being a sox fan, and if that means starting a guy with heart like Ben Davis who enjoys being in Chicago that so be it. Aj was talking **** about the sox last year when he was in San Fran. I got too much pride in my team for a jerk like that. I remember listening to him bash the sox on The Rome show on ESPN 1000. I know he would be an upgrade but so would Barry Bonds and at this point SCammy Sosa, and I hope most of you would agree that neither of them are welcome on the Southside.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2004, 10:50 PM
Now that is just being rediculous.:o: :smile: I am not a pessimist, I am saying looking at that lineup from that perspective (although not all players will be bad) we need some offensive help from any position, and catcher would be great.Maybe that should have been in teal. The point was, you can't just assume everyone else will suck so we need Pierzynski if we're going to have any offense at all. The only thing he brings to the table is a LH bat with a decent average. Not that that's not valuable, but when that's offset by sub-par defense at a defensive postion and no real power, my desire to chance the attitude problems vaporizes.

DaleJRFan
12-20-2004, 11:16 PM
Go Rays.
Maybe this will jinx it....

http://www.lucidnoir.com/pictures/aj.jpg

I hear Brook Fordyce is a free agent...

stillz
12-20-2004, 11:36 PM
I remember listening to him bash the sox on The Rome show on ESPN 1000.

If that's the case, then I suppose he's better off in tampa. But the thought of him helping our pitchers find some weaknesses in Gardenhire, Hunter, and the rest of the twinkies is tempting. Especially if he can be had for around 2.5 mill.

southsideirish71
12-20-2004, 11:38 PM
I am ashamed of the sox fans that want anything to do with AJ Pierzynski! He is an A$$! I am proud of being a sox fan, and if that means starting a guy with heart like Ben Davis who enjoys being in Chicago that so be it. Aj was talking **** about the sox last year when he was in San Fran. I got too much pride in my team for a jerk like that. I remember listening to him bash the sox on The Rome show on ESPN 1000. I know he would be an upgrade but so would Barry Bonds and at this point SCammy Sosa, and I hope most of you would agree that neither of them are welcome on the Southside.
Well based on that opionion we should of never signed Dennis Rodman because he was a piston and hated the bulls. Well we signed him and he did OK. AJ bled his team, but he is a professional. If we pay him he will play for us the same way with the same passion. Remember they got rid of him, so as much as he has buddies over there, I am sure he would love to prove that getting rid of him was a mistake. He also wants to prove that last year was an abberation. Just a thought.

:supernana:

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 12:22 AM
KW must be seriously thinking about signing Pierzynski as our starting catcher instead of just bringing back Ben Davis...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041220&content_id=924524&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
Although it had not been officially announced, the White Sox reportedly offered arbitration to outfielder Aaron Rowand. The decision on Ben Davis was still up in the air, while right-hander Jon Garland, shortstop Juan Uribe and outfielder Timo Perez all agreed to new deals before Monday night.

hosieryofthegods
12-21-2004, 12:36 AM
A.J. is an upgrade. Plain and simple. Anything to make this team better should be done. With the payroll restrictions, this guy could be a bargain. A LEFTY who can get on base. You want balance? Well, a lefty would help that. No pop in the bat. That's fine. Station to Station no more! I'd rather have a guy who can actually make contact. No more of this trying to kill the ball, resulting in constant infield popups with 1 out. :angry:


I could care less if he pissed somebody here off. Good, these guys need somebody that can piss off opposing hitters. The guys is not that much of a defensive liability. At worst he's no worse than Fisk was behind the plate. Their fielding % is the same w/ an edge to A.J.. A.J. gets less passed balls and less errors. A.J.'s arm may not be as good as Fisk's was, but I'm just looking at averages here.

A.J.'s OBP is just a bit lower career wise. A.J.'s batting average is at least 25 points higher. Now understand that I'm not saying A.J. is anything compared to the lengthy career of Fisk, but their fielding % and glove are around the same. Granted Pierzynski has done it on a much smaller sample. A.J.'s OPS career wise is .030 less than Fisk. Again a smaller sample size, but to compare Burke and Davis to this guy is insane. Burke doesn't have the sample size, not to mention he's 5 years older, and Davis has never even done anything to suggest he could be anywhere near Pierzynski's level.

So give the Burke/Davis argument a rest please:rolleyes: .

popilius
12-21-2004, 12:45 AM
AJ is definitely an upgrade. Although I have all the Sox pride in the world and I respect Davis and Burke because of their determination, AJ's skill would certainly help this team win.

As for AJ being a jerk, if he helps the White Sox WIN baseball games, it doesn't matter to me. I would sign a roster of evil villains if I thought we could win the pennant!

:gulp:

BRDSR
12-21-2004, 12:58 AM
Bragging rights over KC. Have we forgotten how annoying Royals fans get?
I actually forgot the Royals were in our division. Vague memories of 2003 are coming to me, but other than that...1985? Was that their year? I dunno, the Royals have bored me since they lost George Brett. Man, he was a stud though.

hosieryofthegods
12-21-2004, 12:59 AM
As for AJ being a jerk, if he helps the White Sox WIN baseball games, it doesn't matter to me. I would sign a roster of evil villains if I thought we could win the pennant!

:gulp:
I'll second that. My vote goes for Doc Oc at Catcher. He's not very mobile back there, but nothing gets by him.:redneck

duke of dorwood
12-21-2004, 07:47 AM
Why should it matter? Who does this team have that's likeable? Closest to that would be Konerko. Then, Aaron Rowand. Maggs was likeable-gone. Carlos-gone. Valentin-gone.

alohafri
12-21-2004, 09:02 AM
Davis has been non-tendered. I say, let's go for Pierzynski. I don't want Jamie Burke to be the guy crouching behind the plate for 120+ games, especially if he is afraid to take a hit.

alohafri
12-21-2004, 09:04 AM
Maybe this will jinx it....

http://www.lucidnoir.com/pictures/aj.jpg

I hear Brook Fordyce is a free agent...
"How many dyce?"

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 09:21 AM
At worst he's no worse than Fisk was behind the plate.That sound you hear is any credibility going down the toilet. Fisk was one of the best game-callers around.

fledgedrallycap
12-21-2004, 09:37 AM
Speaking of Fisk, he wasn't exactly the "nicest" guy in the clubhouse, yet everyone on this board loves and respects what he did as a member of the White Sox. I say give the guy a chance, sometimes it's worth giving a shot to a man with something to prove.

Mickster
12-21-2004, 09:39 AM
Speaking of Fisk, he wasn't exactly the "nicest" guy in the clubhouse.....
Certainly contradicts what I have heard.

mweflen
12-21-2004, 09:45 AM
Since we have non-tendered Davis, i don't see what other option we have behind the dish which would allow us to have any fantasy or pretension of being a serious contender. The guy is a near career-.300 hitter who almost never strikes out and would probably knock in 75 for us. After so many years of SQUAT from the catcher's spot, I don't care what kind of attitude he may have had in the past. He was a big part of a winning team in the Twins, and we're desperately in need of a boost for our currently anemic offense, especially since another starter is looking like a pipe dream.

1917
12-21-2004, 09:46 AM
If we didn't lock up Davis I think it is a safe bet that AJ is coming.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 09:48 AM
Certainly contradicts what I have heard.I don't care all that much about how he gets along with the other players. What I care about is how he gets along with the pitchers. And from everything I've heard, AJ does not have good relationships with the pitchers.

Over By There
12-21-2004, 10:04 AM
And from everything I've heard, AJ does not have good relationships with the pitchers.
I also seem to remember hearing that some umpires don't like him, that he argues balls and strikes too much? As a result, pitchers felt they weren't getting calls?

His reputation scares me a little bit, but if he kept his nose clean, he could win me over. Having a good polish last name in Chicago won't hurt his popularity! :cool:

wdelaney72
12-21-2004, 10:07 AM
Certainly contradicts what I have heard.
Steff,

Care to put this one to rest??


As far as AJ and his Sox bashing. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall his statements being 100% on the money. PAINFULL, but accurate. He ripped the Sox for not playing like a team and not doing the little things it took to win. We all know we haven't seen this for years.

The sad thing was after he insulted the Sox, the players continued to suck and play Corpseball just like he described.

Mickster
12-21-2004, 10:08 AM
Steff,

Care to put this one to rest??


As far as AJ and his Sox bashing. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall his statements being 100% on the money. PAINFULL, but accurate. He ripped the Sox for not playing like a team and not doing the little things it took to win. We all know we haven't seen this for years.

The sad thing was after he insulted the Sox, the players continued to suck and play Corpseball just like he described.
My comment referred to Fisk, not AJ.

mjharrison72
12-21-2004, 10:15 AM
If we didn't lock up Davis I think it is a safe bet that AJ is coming.What about Jason Varitek?

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 10:20 AM
If we didn't lock up Davis I think it is a safe bet that AJ is coming.Agreed. No way we are starting the season with Jamie Burke as our starting catcher.

mweflen
12-21-2004, 10:31 AM
Agreed. No way we are starting the season with Jamie Burke as our starting catcher.
You know, just last season, I was saying to myself, "No way we start the season with Willie Harris as our starting 2b..."

Never underestimate the dark side of Uncle Jerry.

wdelaney72
12-21-2004, 10:43 AM
I'll take Burke starting at Catcher over Willie starting at 2B ANY DAY.

That being said, I agree AJ is coming.

bobj4400
12-21-2004, 10:48 AM
What about Jason Varitek?
This is the White Sox...KW is flying under the radar going for the B level free agents. Varitek doesnt fit that description. He is too good.

wdelaney72
12-21-2004, 10:56 AM
This is the White Sox...KW is flying under the radar going for the B level free agents. Varitek doesnt fit that description. He is too good.
Hence the deep pink font.

Do we have a "deep Pink" police photo?

hosieryofthegods
12-21-2004, 12:27 PM
That sound you hear is any credibility going down the toilet. Fisk was one of the best game-callers around.
Notice I didn't say anything about that. I never said he was HOF material, I simply said defensively and offensively he was comparable.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 12:30 PM
Notice I didn't say anything about that. I never said he was HOF material, I simply said defensively and offensively he was comparable.Sorry. Pierzynski is not comparable to Fisk either offensively or defensively. Not even close.

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2004, 12:34 PM
:tomatoaward

hosieryofthegods
12-21-2004, 12:37 PM
Look at the #'s. I did. Read my first post. It's a much smaller sample size, but the #'s are comparable. Fisk was better. Period, I'm not arguing this. I'm sorry if you have a prejudice against Pierzynski.

mjharrison72
12-21-2004, 12:38 PM
This is the White Sox...KW is flying under the radar going for the B level free agents. Varitek doesnt fit that description. He is too good.Listen, you live in your world, I'll live in mine. In my world, Varitek hits fifth for the White Sox. I'm not all that sold on Pierzynski... what I like most about Varitek is he takes his defensive responsibilities as a catcher so seriously. Obviously Pierzynski wasn't much of a loss for the Twinkies from the game-calling standpoint. I like the idea of trying to improve at catcher, but I just don't know if Pierzynski's the guy. Burke will be OK for a while and as a backup, but I hope they try for Varitek. As much of a pipe dream as it is, it would make my offseason, even if it means Grilli is our fifth starter.

hosieryofthegods
12-21-2004, 12:40 PM
Listen, you live in your world, I'll live in mine. In my world, Varitek hits fifth for the White Sox. I'm not all that sold on Pierzynski... what I like most about Varitek is he takes his defensive responsibilities as a catcher so seriously. Obviously Pierzynski wasn't much of a loss for the Twinkies from the game-calling standpoint. I like the idea of trying to improve at catcher, but I just don't know if Pierzynski's the guy. Burke will be OK for a while and as a backup, but I hope they try for Varitek. As much of a pipe dream as it is, it would make my offseason, even if it means Grilli is our fifth starter.
I wish I could live in that world. Would be nice to steal the Sawks stud catcher twice.:rolleyes:

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 12:41 PM
Obviously Pierzynski wasn't much of a loss for the Twinkies from the game-calling standpoint.True, but they do have a young stud catcher in Joe Mauer if he can ever grow back some cartilage in his knees. :tongue:

mjharrison72
12-21-2004, 12:43 PM
And before people bust too hard on Jamie Burke, I want to note he hit .333 in 57 games last year, with a .386 OBP... no power, but struck out only 13 times in 120 ABs. I'm not saying he should be our starting catcher, but those aren't the worst 8 or 9 hitter numbers I've seen.

mjharrison72
12-21-2004, 12:44 PM
I wish I could live in that world. Would be nice to steal the Sawks stud catcher twice.:rolleyes:That comparison wasn't lost on me, either... #72 will always be my favorite!

mjharrison72
12-21-2004, 12:45 PM
True, but they do have a young stud catcher in Joe Mauer if he can ever grow back some cartilage in his knees. :tongue:Yeah... too bad we traded our young stud catcher to Seattle.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 12:48 PM
Yeah... too bad we traded our young stud catcher to Seattle.I'm pretty sure if you contacted Seattle and offered to reverse the trade they would agree.

mjharrison72
12-21-2004, 12:56 PM
Hey, now... nobody said anything about that. I would, however, turn back time to give them Borchard instead of Olivo.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 12:56 PM
Yeah... too bad we traded our young stud catcher to Seattle.Miguel Olivo (http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=400018)
.233 AVG
.286 OBP
13 HR
40 RBI

Some stud. :rolleyes: I bet Ben Davis could do that in a full season.
I'm pretty sure if you contacted Seattle and offered to reverse the trade they would agree.Agreed, especially since they just signed Sexson and Beltre. They now have a good lineup but no starting pitching.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 12:56 PM
Hey, now... nobody said anything about that. I would, however, turn back time to give them Borchard instead of Olivo.That's very generous of you.

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 12:58 PM
Hey, now... nobody said anything about that. I would, however, turn back time to give them Borchard instead of Olivo.Guess what? They didn't want Borchard and can you blame them?
That's very generous of you.:)

hosieryofthegods
12-21-2004, 01:01 PM
I can only guess he meant Borchard instead of Reed? Problem: Nobody wants that bum.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 01:42 PM
My memory is getting fuzzy. Was it Pierzynski or Mentk*#&$@*** who made the famous comment about MLB taking the All-Star game from Chicago after the Gamboa incident? I still recall Kenny's reply as an All-Star retort.

"He won't have to worry about it. He won't be there."

Mickster
12-21-2004, 01:44 PM
My memory is getting fuzzy. Was it Pierzynski or Mentk*#&$@*** who made the famous comment about MLB taking the All-Star game from Chicago after the Gamboa incident? I still recall Kenny's reply as an All-Star retort.

"He won't have to worry about it. He won't be there."
Mankevfdhuiohgfurlich said it. KW's response was priceless! :smile:

Jabroni
12-21-2004, 01:44 PM
My memory is getting fuzzy. Was it Pierzynski or Mentk*#&$@*** who made the famous comment about MLB taking the All-Star game from Chicago after the Gamboa incident? I still recall Kenny's reply as an All-Star retort.

"He won't have to worry about it. He won't be there."Doug Mientkiewicz...

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/6336601
"I think they should take the All-Star game away from them, honestly," Mientkiewicz said last week after a fan ran onto U.S. Cellular Field last and tried to tackle an umpire, just seven months after a father and son attacked Kansas City coach Tom Gamboa.
"You can't be having first base coaches and umpires getting attacked. That's ridiculous," Mientkiewicz said.

Williams responded the next day by saying: "Doug Who? He doesn't have to worry about making the All-Star game, anyway.":)

hosieryofthegods
12-21-2004, 01:45 PM
I remember the retort, but alas I don't remember who made the comment.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-21-2004, 01:46 PM
That was a great response by KW. I think it went along the lines of, "Doug who? He won't be at the ASG anyways."

MisterB
12-21-2004, 01:53 PM
My memory is getting fuzzy. Was it Pierzynski or Mentk*#&$@*** who made the famous comment about MLB taking the All-Star game from Chicago after the Gamboa incident? I still recall Kenny's reply as an All-Star retort.

"He won't have to worry about it. He won't be there."
Frankly Mientkiewicz, Pierzynski and Hunter are guys I'd find practically impossible to root for if they somehow were on the Sox. Their trash talk not only about the Sox team, but Sox fans (like Douggie's above comment) still bug the hell out of me. :angry:

santo=dorf
12-21-2004, 02:01 PM
I know Manuel loved the idea, but is Ozzie a big fan of carrying 3 catchers?:?:

Over By There
12-21-2004, 02:02 PM
Frankly Mientkiewicz, Pierzynski and Hunter are guys I'd find practically impossible to root for if they somehow were on the Sox. Their trash talk not only about the Sox team, but Sox fans (like Douggie's above comment) still bug the hell out of me. :angry:
Mientkiewicz: no way because of the ASG comment. I took that personally.

Hunter: probably could never root for him because of the Burke incident, on top of a general dislike that has grown over the past few years.

Pierzynski: I am willing to keep an open mind. I don't recall him making any comments about Sox fans like DM did. As someone else pointed out, criticism from the Twins regarding how the Sox have played over the past few years is mostly warranted. As I think about it more and more, why not bring in someone with that kind of perspective to help shake things up?

Mickster
12-21-2004, 02:03 PM
I know Manuel loved the idea, but is Ozzie a big fan of carrying 3 catchers?:?:
When Maggs went down, they called up Burke, meaning 2 catchers on the bench. Many were clearly looking for Reed.

jordan23ventura
12-21-2004, 02:32 PM
When Maggs went down, they called up Burke, meaning 2 catchers on the bench. Many were clearly looking for Reed.
Burke can catch.
Burke can DH.
Burke can, and this is very important, also play third base.
Crede can struggle.
Burke can give him his seat on the bench.
People can clap.

tstrike2000
12-21-2004, 02:32 PM
A.J.'s not bad enough defensively to be a bigger liability than Davis and Burke. That, plus he lead the league for rbi's by a catcher last year which could turn into some huge insurance/winning runs for us.

EMel9281
12-21-2004, 02:34 PM
Burke can catch.
Burke can DH.
Burke can, and this is very important, also play third base.
Crede can struggle.
Burke can give him his seat on the bench.
People can clap.
Bam! There you go! Burke can be used for utility purposes.

Burke should become the second-coming of Tony Graffanino, with the exception that he doesn't play SS or CF. He's played LF before, and if you can play LF, then you can play RF. He has been at 1B before, too. And, he can be an emergency catcher if one of them is pinch hit for late in the game...

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 02:41 PM
Bam! There you go! Burke can be used for utility purposes.

Burke should become the second-coming of Tony Graffanino, with the exception that he doesn't play SS or CF. He's played LF before, and if you can play LF, then you can play RF. He has been at 1B before, too. And, he can be an emergency catcher if one of them is pinch hit for late in the game...Maybe he can close if Shingo struggles. And sell hot dogs on days when he's not playing.

EMel9281
12-21-2004, 02:42 PM
Maybe he can close if Shingo struggles. And sell hot dogs on days when he's not playing.
I rest my case...

jordan23ventura
12-21-2004, 03:23 PM
Maybe he can close if Shingo struggles. And sell hot dogs on days when he's not playing.
And maybe when he's not busy he can give his opinion on the state of the team here at WSI, and use lots of teal and sarcasm!

Seriously, I don't know what there is about the guy that isn't likeable. He can have Borchard's spot any day. Our bench would be Gload (1B, OF), Timo (OF), Valdez (SS, 2B), Everett (DH, OF), Burke (C, 3B), and Davis (C). That looks alright to me.