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eastchicagosoxfan
12-19-2004, 08:32 PM
Joe Crede's name has been tossed around as trade bait. There'a plenty of dissatisfaction with his performance, but what would be acceptable? Last year he hit .239, with 67 runs, 69 rbi's, .299 obp, .418 slugging, and a .965 fielding avg. If he put up these numbers, would he be playing at an acceptable level? 80 on the runs and rbi's? .260 avg? .975 fielding? 25 dingers, 4 more than his 21 in 2004? I don't think these numbers are a reach. What are some opinions?

OzzieBall2004
12-19-2004, 08:36 PM
See my "Aubrey Huff" thread.

I dont think its a stretch, and I think those numbers are reachable and satisfactory, but with the drafting of Fields and his promising start in the minors, I think its pretty damn clear that it's now or never for Crede to solidify himself as a member of the White Sox.

SoxFan76
12-19-2004, 08:39 PM
Most people here think every position has to be an All-Star, and that every other team doesn't have nearly as many holes as us. Crede will be fine. His numbers weren't great, but the White Sox still had one of the top offenses in the league. (Even though they decided to bust out the bats when it didn't matter)

Crede will get better and better. I personally believe this "fixed swing problem" theory that the White Sox are throwing at us. It worked for Rowand, why can't it work for Crede? When you posted those numbers, I didn't even realize he did that "good". According to all the people here, he's the worst 3B in the league.

Crede had only 3 less HRs than Rowand, 10 less Ks, and 4 more walks. He is young, and can only improve on that low average. I'm not too worried about Crede. I'm more worried about when Frank will come back, and if Dye and Everett can have productive seasons again.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-19-2004, 08:44 PM
The Huff thread was the inspiration for the Crede thread. Crede will improve, and I agree with Sox76, An All-star isn't needed at all positions. Crede's numbers weren't great, and this year is it for him, but I think he can make those numbers. Is the difference between Huff and Crede all that significant?

SoxFan76
12-19-2004, 08:45 PM
This thread has influenced me to make a sig, something I rarely do. :D:

LASOXFAN
12-19-2004, 08:51 PM
This thread has influenced me to make a sig, something I rarely do. :D:
I was high on him through AAA and then when he came up, but last year was the year he needed to step up and he didn't. As much as I criticize that dumbass swing of his, yes, I'd like to see him turn it around. But you're asking a lot.

MRKARNO
12-19-2004, 08:54 PM
I'm optimistic about Crede:

.285 Avg .325 OBP 28 Homers

He'll either do that or be a failure and I just happen to think he wont be a failure.

HomeFish
12-19-2004, 09:06 PM
I'd love for the Sox to dump Crede, but his trade value right now is zilch.

If he has a good spring, trade him as soon as the Sox fall out of contention, assuming he hasn't come down to Earth by then.

MisterB
12-19-2004, 09:17 PM
The Huff thread was the inspiration for the Crede thread. Crede will improve, and I agree with Sox76, An All-star isn't needed at all positions. Crede's numbers weren't great, and this year is it for him, but I think he can make those numbers. Is the difference between Huff and Crede all that significant? 60 more points of batting average, 20 more walks, 35 more RBIs, more homers, less strikeouts. The difference between Huff and Crede IS significant.

Sox 3B (85% of which was Crede) were:

12th in the AL in RBI
11th in total bases
11th in OPS
13th in Runs Created

And this is with half the games played in a park that boosted power numbers last year. I'm not asking for an All-Star performance, just being average would be a step up for Crede.

mcfish
12-20-2004, 01:08 PM
I'd love for the Sox to dump Crede, but his trade value right now is zilch.

If he has a good spring, trade him as soon as the Sox fall out of contention, assuming he hasn't come down to Earth by then."Fall out of contention?" We didn't fall out of contention until well after the trading deadline last year, and whether we win the division or not, we won't fall out of contention before July 31 this year either. This team compared to last year's team is missing Lee and improved pitching (Garcia, Contreras, Vazquez, Hermanson, -Mike Jackson, -Koch). It's not like Minnesota has been improving their team in every area this offseason. Besides, in my opinion, if the Sox fall out of contention, one of the reasons will be a lack of production from Crede, so his stock won't be high then either.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-20-2004, 01:29 PM
I think Joe Crede should be allowed to play third base until he collects social security.

It's just a shame not all the #9 hitters in the Sox line up can actually bat #9 next year. It's just not fair...
:cool:

kittle42
12-20-2004, 01:32 PM
Joe Crede's name has been tossed around as trade bait.
Yes - by people here who also think Joe Borchard has trade value. :smile:

mcfish
12-20-2004, 01:33 PM
I think Joe Crede should be allowed to play third base until he collects social security.

It's just a shame not all the #9 hitters in the Sox line up can actually bat #9 next year. It's just not fair...
:cool:Sorry, I don't want to be taken as a Crede supporter. I think he is the biggest hole in the current lineup and I think that if there is another offensive upgrade this year, it should be at 3B. I was only trying to respond to the part of HomeFish's post where he said that we should trade Crede when we "fall out of contention" by saying that we won't fall out of contention before the trading deadline.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-20-2004, 01:36 PM
...I was only trying to respond to the part of HomeFish's post where he said that we should trade Crede when we "fall out of contention" by saying that we won't fall out of contention before the trading deadline.
I agree, it's nearly impossible for the Sox to fall out of contention in the A.L. Norris Division before the trade deadline. We're contenders! Not that we aren't capable of doing something stupid anyway...
:wink:

:reinsy
"You Sox fans are C-R-A-Z-Y!"

BainesHOF
12-21-2004, 04:10 AM
The thing about Crede is he has shown no ability or, worse, desire to adjust his swing when it was clear he was not swinging well. This went on all year. He's either stupid or stubborn or both. In any case, it doesn't bode well for his development. In my opinion, he acts like a loser. If Crede played for an organization with higher expectations, he would have been long gone.

Fredsox
12-21-2004, 05:04 AM
The thing about Crede is he has shown no ability or, worse, desire to adjust his swing when it was clear he was not swinging well. This went on all year. He's either stupid or stubborn or both. In any case, it doesn't bode well for his development. In my opinion, he acts like a loser. If Crede played for an organization with higher expectations, he would have been long gone.
I think this assessment is a bit extreme. If we put the team's needs in context, really 3rd base is not at the top of the list. Crede was certainly a disappointment last year offensively but he was more than adequate defensively. He can play 3rd base for me any day. Yes, he needs to get more consistent at the plate, but I think he's shown serious potential.

Given that we have other more important priorities (starting pitching, catching) I'm confortable with starting the season with him at 3rd and letting Greg Walker work with him. If he's not contributing effectively (.265+, 10-12HR) by June we can look for a replacement. If he's the only thing that needs replacing by the All Star break we're probably in first place.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 09:07 AM
The thing about Crede is he has shown no ability or, worse, desire to adjust his swing when it was clear he was not swinging well. This went on all year. He's either stupid or stubborn or both. In any case, it doesn't bode well for his development. In my opinion, he acts like a loser. If Crede played for an organization with higher expectations, he would have been long gone.I think you're grossly underestimating how difficult it is to change overnight something you've been doing for years. I asked Greg Walker about this last year at Soxfest and he indicated that it's probably the most difficult adjustment a hitter has to make. Remember that his swing was very successful for years. Then he gets to the major leagues and it suddenly doesn't work anymore. Most players have never really analyzed their swing - they just find what works and keep doing it. When it doesn't work anymore, they have no real way of finding out what's wrong. Even if the coach can pinpoint the problem, it's not so easy to undo years of muscle memory and start doing something different. Adrian Beltre put up very Crede-like numbers until last year and broke out big time. He's still a young player. Let's see what he does this year. But I'd agree this is probably a make-or-break year for him.

SoxxoS
12-21-2004, 10:02 AM
I think you're grossly underestimating how difficult it is to change overnight something you've been doing for years. I asked Greg Walker about this last year at Soxfest and he indicated that it's probably the most difficult adjustment a hitter has to make. Remember that his swing was very successful for years. Then he gets to the major leagues and it suddenly doesn't work anymore. Most players have never really analyzed their swing - they just find what works and keep doing it. When it doesn't work anymore, they have no real way of finding out what's wrong. Even if the coach can pinpoint the problem, it's not so easy to undo years of muscle memory and start doing something different. Adrian Beltre put up very Crede-like numbers until last year and broke out big time. He's still a young player. Let's see what he does this year. But I'd agree this is probably a make-or-break year for him.
Isn't it the Sox coaches job to realize that swing is too slow for the major leagues, and correct it early?

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 10:13 AM
Isn't it the Sox coaches job to realize that swing is too slow for the major leagues, and correct it early?In a perfect world, yes. But he hit pretty well in the minors. People are generally not too anxious to fix what doesn't appear to be broken. I think lots of players have long swings in the minors. You can get away with that there. When they get to the bigs they adapt. But according to Walker, Crede's problem is more than just a long swing. He's got some funky knee action in his back leg that's causing the long swing. Maybe the minor league coaches just weren't able to pick up on that.

Walker claims he's got Joe straightened out. Given what he was able to do with Konerko, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he can do the same with Crede, his status will be elevated to Miracle Worker.

Daver
12-21-2004, 10:15 AM
Isn't it the Sox coaches job to realize that swing is too slow for the major leagues, and correct it early?
I have little faith in Greg Walker being able to help anyone with their swing.

SoxxoS
12-21-2004, 10:25 AM
In the spirit of one of the great comedies of all time (Meet the Parents)

"We'll be looking forward to that, Greg."

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 10:25 AM
I have little faith in Greg Walker being able to help anyone with their swing.Right. He did such a poor job with Konerko.

daveeym
12-21-2004, 10:35 AM
I think you're grossly underestimating how difficult it is to change overnight something you've been doing for years. I asked Greg Walker about this last year at Soxfest and he indicated that it's probably the most difficult adjustment a hitter has to make. Remember that his swing was very successful for years. Then he gets to the major leagues and it suddenly doesn't work anymore. Most players have never really analyzed their swing - they just find what works and keep doing it. When it doesn't work anymore, they have no real way of finding out what's wrong. Even if the coach can pinpoint the problem, it's not so easy to undo years of muscle memory and start doing something different. Adrian Beltre put up very Crede-like numbers until last year and broke out big time. He's still a young player. Let's see what he does this year. But I'd agree this is probably a make-or-break year for him.

I agree, it's almost impossible for most to make a swing change or any major skill change in midseason. The skill is a habit for these guys they've been doing it for so long. They can practice a new swing or skill everyday but when it comes to game time 99% of them are going to revert back to their regular swing. Improvement comes in the off season where after every old swing they get stopped by the coach and put back to the new swing. Often some time away also helps because you'll come back and all of a sudden that new swing just feels natural to you. Part of crede's problem could be that he has been listening to the coach and is thinking, "Ok Elbows in, quick hands, don't do that knee thing, **** gotta swing" on most of his at bats. Thinking is not good for hitting. Only the great ones are good enough to think about where a pitch may be and what he's gonna do with it and they're NOT thinking about their swing - THAT'S AUTOMATIC.

gosox41
12-21-2004, 10:43 AM
I have little faith in Greg Walker being able to help anyone with their swing.
Care to expound on this as to why?


Bob

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2004, 10:45 AM
I have little faith in Greg Walker being able to help anyone with their swing.

Daver, who do you think would make a good hitting coach for the White Sox?

Daver
12-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Care to expound on this as to why?


Bob
Point out who he has helped among the Sox young players.

No one.

Harris, Uribe, and Crede were struggling with the same mechanical flaws at the end of the season that they had when the season began, with no sign of improvement.

Daver
12-21-2004, 10:51 AM
Daver, who do you think would make a good hitting coach for the White Sox?
There's a guy who is the hitting coach for the Cubs AA team that had some success at the MLB level in 99 and 2000.

Guy by the name of Von Joshua.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 11:00 AM
Point out who he has helped among the Sox young players.

No one.

Harris, Uribe, and Crede were struggling with the same mechanical flaws at the end of the season that they had when the season began, with no sign of improvement.He did a pretty good job with Konerko. But he doesn't count because he's not a "young" player? Why the distinction?

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2004, 11:01 AM
There's a guy who is the hitting coach for the Cubs AA team that had some success at the MLB level in 99 and 2000.

Guy by the name of Von Joshua.

Are you insinuating that he was made to be the scapegoat for the Sox not hitting well when he was fired? Fair enough. I'm inclined to trust your judgment, Daver. :cool:

Daver
12-21-2004, 11:03 AM
He did a pretty good job with Konerko. But he doesn't count because he's not a "young" player? Why the distinction?
Because young players are the ones that need the help of a hitting coach much moreso than veteran players, your coaching staff needs to develop players.

Ol' No. 2
12-21-2004, 11:09 AM
Because young players are the ones that need the help of a hitting coach much moreso than veteran players, your coaching staff needs to develop players.Certainly there's a difference in approach between working with younger players and veteran players. But why would you assume that he can only help veteran players, but what he's doing will not work with younger players? Harris added 60 pts to his BA in 2004 vs. 2003.

Daver
12-21-2004, 11:11 AM
Certainly there's a difference in approach between working with younger players and veteran players. But why would you assume that he can only help veteran players, but what he's doing will not work with younger players? Harris added 60 pts to his BA in 2004 vs. 2003.
I have already pointed out why.

santo=dorf
12-21-2004, 12:17 PM
Point out who he has helped among the Sox young players.

No one.

Harris, Uribe, and Crede were struggling with the same mechanical flaws at the end of the season that they had when the season began, with no sign of improvement.
What about Rowand?

He started hitting a month after Ward was fired back in May of 2003.

Daver
12-21-2004, 12:19 PM
What about Rowand?

He started hitting a month after Ward was fired back in May of 2003.
And his plate discipline is still horrible.

maurice
12-21-2004, 12:30 PM
I've never heard of a batting coach who can improve the plate discipline of a MLB player. Ozzie Guillen had some pretty good batting coaches and still swung at anything and everything.

Walk will get a chance to show his value (or lack of value) this season. If Rowand and Uribe take a big step backwards, Pod continues his decline, and nobody else steps forward, we'll know the score.