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View Full Version : Has anyone heard of a white sox curse by Luis Aparicio?


naprvllesoxfan
12-18-2004, 12:20 PM
My husband (the cub fan) and I were having a discussion last night about the Cubs curse and Red Sox former curse. He said that Luis Aparicio put a curse on the sox after the 59 series. Has anyone ever heard of this? I sure haven't and I have been a sox fan all my life. Any info would sure be appreciated. I would love to prove this cub fan wrong!! (since they usually are! lol)

Palehose13
12-18-2004, 12:46 PM
My husband (the cub fan) and I were having a discussion last night about the Cubs curse and Red Sox former curse. He said that Luis Aparicio put a curse on the sox after the 59 series. Has anyone ever heard of this? I sure haven't and I have been a sox fan all my life. Any info would sure be appreciated. I would love to prove this cub fan wrong!! (since they usually are! lol)
He's making that up. However, he'll never admit that he's wrong.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2004, 12:55 PM
As a matter of fact he did.

In January 1963 Luis was traded to the Orioles along with Al Smith for Pete Ward, Dave Nicholson, Hoyt Wilhelm and Ron Hansen. The deal was an absolute steal for the Sox immediately rocketing them back into pennent contention. From 1963 through 1965 they averaged 95 wins.

Aparicio was a salary cut in 1962 and was very angry about it. The perception was that he was slowing down. (It turned out to be wrong just a few off years by the future hall of famer.) Upon leaving he stated to the Chicago media that 'it took the Sox 40 years to win a pennent and it'll take then another forty years to do it again.'

For more on Aparicio feel free to read this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2489

Lip

RKMeibalane
12-18-2004, 12:57 PM
The Sox are not cursed.

HomeFish
12-18-2004, 01:05 PM
The only curse that there is any real evidence for is the curse of Jose Paniagua.

Ever since Jose Paniagua came out of the bullpen in a Sox uniform, the Sox have never been in first place by any integer value greater than two games. Or perhaps its after Jose Paniagua left the Cell that day in a Sox uniform...

MarkyBear
12-18-2004, 01:11 PM
My husband (the cub fan)


:rolling:

NICE!!! :D:

Palehose13
12-18-2004, 01:16 PM
As a matter of fact he did.

In January 1963 Luis was traded to the Orioles along with Al Smith for Pete Ward, Dave Nicholson, Hoyt Wilhelm and Ron Hansen. The deal was an absolute steal for the Sox immediately rocketing them back into pennent contention. From 1963 through 1965 they averaged 95 wins.

Aparicio was a salary cut in 1962 and was very angry about it. The perception was that he was slowing down. (It turned out to be wrong just a few off years by the future hall of famer.) Upon leaving he stated to the Chicago media that 'it took the Sox 40 years to win a pennent and it'll take then another forty years to do it again.'

For more on Aparicio feel free to read this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2489

Lip
Not quite sure I would call that a curse, Lip. Of course even if it was it would be over, since teh Sox did win the pennant 40 years later.

Curses are for cub fans.

TheBull19
12-18-2004, 01:17 PM
As a matter of fact he did.

Upon leaving he stated to the Chicago media that 'it took the Sox 40 years to win a pennent and it'll take then another forty years to do it again.'



Lip
Yep, that's what I was going to say. That would have expired after the 2001 season if you believe in that sort of thing, though.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-18-2004, 01:19 PM
My husband (the cub fan) and I were having a discussion last night about the Cubs curse and Red Sox former curse. He said that Luis Aparicio put a curse on the sox after the 59 series. Has anyone ever heard of this? I sure haven't and I have been a sox fan all my life. Any info would sure be appreciated. I would love to prove this cub fan wrong!! (since they usually are! lol)
Yes, Aparicio made up some phony curse when the Sox traded him to Baltimore. I'm guessing sour grapes commentary like Magglio Ordonez's isn't reserved just for KW and JR.
:smile:

No Sox Fan even bothers with such foolishness and the "curse" is long-forgotten and completely ignored. So how absolutely perfect it is that a ****ing CUBS FAN would be the one to remember it.

Those people are complete ****ing idiots. Make sure to tell your husband I said so, too.
:cool:

BRDSR
12-18-2004, 01:39 PM
The only curse that there is any real evidence for is the curse of Jose Paniagua.

Ever since Jose Paniagua came out of the bullpen in a Sox uniform, the Sox have never been in first place by any integer value greater than two games. Or perhaps its after Jose Paniagua left the Cell that day in a Sox uniform...
I think that if you have to believe that the White Sox are cursed in order to justify 80+ years without a championship, it's the Black Sox Curse of 1919. However, I don't think theres any mystical reason that the White Sox haven't won.

LongLiveFisk
12-18-2004, 01:54 PM
The only curse we have is the curse of bad ownership. Don't buy into anything else. (Especially from a Cubs fan!) :smile:

idseer
12-18-2004, 02:50 PM
As a matter of fact he did.

In January 1963 Luis was traded to the Orioles along with Al Smith for Pete Ward, Dave Nicholson, Hoyt Wilhelm and Ron Hansen. The deal was an absolute steal for the Sox immediately rocketing them back into pennent contention. From 1963 through 1965 they averaged 95 wins.

Aparicio was a salary cut in 1962 and was very angry about it. The perception was that he was slowing down. (It turned out to be wrong just a few off years by the future hall of famer.) Upon leaving he stated to the Chicago media that 'it took the Sox 40 years to win a pennent and it'll take then another forty years to do it again.'

For more on Aparicio feel free to read this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2489

Lip
i remember it quite clearly.

idseer
12-18-2004, 03:07 PM
By Mark Liptak


Unfortunately relations began to sour between Aparicio and the Sox front office. Then Sox G.M. Ed Short was convinced Louie was slowing down after his 1962 season ended with a ..241 batting average and only 31 stolen bases. Aparicio was also enraged at Sox management after having his salary cut. So on January 14, 1963 Short sent Aparicio and Al Smith to Baltimore in perhaps the most lop sided deal in Sox history. The Sox got in return, 3rd baseman Pete Ward, relief pitcher and future Hall Of Famer Hoyt Wilhelm, shortstop Ron Hansen and outfielder Dave Nicholson.

As he left the organization, Aparicio started ‘the Looie Curse,’ often forgotten about by baseball fans who continue to only remember billy goats and Babe Ruth. Aparicio told the Chicago media that “it took the Sox 40 years to win a pennant, it’ll take them another 40 years to win another one.” i disagree about how lopsided that trade was.

hansen hit under .235 in 5 out of 7 seasons.

ward had 2 good years then sucked it up pretty bad after that.

nicholson was (and is) a long standing joke. never hit even .230 for the sox while providing a few deep flies.

wilhelm was outstanding for 6 seasons.

aparicio meanwhile stole 167 bases and played his usual all-star caliber defense for 5 years with baltimore and imo more valuable than wilhelm as a full time player.
smith hit .272 with 10 hr's one season then was traded

i think the sox did get the better part of this deal, but i never thought this was lopsided.

Sox Mobile
12-18-2004, 03:45 PM
I dont believe in any stinking curse.

However if you do, at point cooould be made that the year we should have broken the 40 year curse was the year........2000.......hmmmmmmm.....

Also, Thanx to posters for the great history in this thread.

DumpJerry
12-18-2004, 04:05 PM
You married a Flub fab?!?!? You poor girl. Are the kids ok?

TheBull19
12-18-2004, 04:24 PM
You married a Flub fab?!?!? You poor girl. Are the kids ok?
Really, that means the poor kid has one parent who's an idiot and another who's insane. Not a bright future for that one.:D:

TDog
12-18-2004, 10:56 PM
As a matter of fact he did.

... Upon leaving he stated to the Chicago media that 'it took the Sox 40 years to win a pennent and it'll take then another forty years to do it again.'...Lip
That wasn't a curse, but an assessment of the organization.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2004, 11:02 PM
Id:

The Sox were drifting in 1961 and 1962, look at what happened after the trade was made in 63,64 and 65. They averaged 96 wins in the three years.

I'm not trying to knock Looie but as far as who the Sox got...

Pete Ward was a productive player even with a bad back through 1967. Look up his totals for that year for example.

Ron Hansen was one of the best fielding shortstops in the A.L. and supplied power at a time when it was unheard of for that position. He had 20 home runs one season the team record until Jose' broke it.

As you say Hoyt was incredible. Feel free to read this for more on his Sox career:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=1799

and even Dave Nicholson who didn't live up to his expectations, still hit in double figures in home runs for the Sox a few years at a time when they really needed production.

Al Smith was very much on the downside of his career. And remember it took the O's four years after the deal before finally making the World Series.

Sorry without that deal the Sox don't collapse in 1968, they probably do it in 1964.

Lip

Dick Allen
12-18-2004, 11:22 PM
Lip,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the Sox re-acquired Aparicio in the late 60's, he said he took everything back about what he had said earlier.

Lip Man 1
12-19-2004, 12:15 AM
Dick:

Correct when Luis was reacquired before the start of the 1968 season he said he didn't really mean what he said when he left on bad terms.

It was one of the first questions asked of him by the Chicago media.

Lip

hose
12-19-2004, 12:49 AM
I believe it was either 1969 or 1970 not sure which . In the Sox home opener the Orioles are leading 12-0 and Little Louie comes up to bat in the bottom of the ninth with the bases empty and looks down to the 3rd base coach for a sign. The 3rd base coach points to the left field stands.

idseer
12-19-2004, 10:32 AM
Id:

The Sox were drifting in 1961 and 1962, look at what happened after the trade was made in 63,64 and 65. They averaged 96 wins in the three years. granted they helped for 2 years, but the sox had a lot of additions around that time .... peters, horlen, skowron, buford, cater, berry .... let's not focus all the credit for that on that trade.


I'm not trying to knock Looie but as far as who the Sox got...

Pete Ward was a productive player even with a bad back through 1967. Look up his totals for that year for example. you know, i was a ward fan. but 18hr 62rbi .233avg .334obp? i'm really not impressed with those numbers. and most of it was done as an outfielder (89 games) ... not as a 3rd baseman (22 games).
the other years were anemic.
also, the o's didn't need ward at all. i recall them having a pretty good 3rd baseman. :smile:

Ron Hansen was one of the best fielding shortstops in the A.L. and supplied power at a time when it was unheard of for that position. He had 20 home runs one season the team record until Jose' broke it. yes he did hit some hr's. but he wasn't very productive even with them. yes he was a very good fielder but, another way of gauging his worth was ... he had 3,029 ab's in the majors after that trade. looie had 6,147. more than double.

and even Dave Nicholson who didn't live up to his expectations, still hit in double figures in home runs for the Sox a few years at a time when they really needed production. come on now. i cannot believe you're finding even small praise for this guy. wasn't he the same guy who broke the all time k (175 in only 449 ab's) record in '63? with .229 with a .319 obp? AND THAT WAS HIS BEST YEAR!
don't even go there.

Al Smith was very much on the downside of his career. And remember it took the O's four years after the deal before finally making the World Series. yes he was. but he gave them one good year then was traded for willie kirkland who gave baltimore 3 good years.

Sorry without that deal the Sox don't collapse in 1968, they probably do it in 1964.Lip perhaps. but that deal also helped baltimore who actually had better years than the sox did for those 3 years. throw in the national championship in 1966 and i'd say there was nothing lopsided at ALL about that trade. wouldn't you agree?
and this was my only point. i think the sox got the better of the deal but i'd stop way short of calling it lopsided and certainly it wasn't the MOST lopsided trade in sox history.

one other point. while those other players ended up bringing nothing in return when the sox were thru with them, looie brought mike andrews and luis alvarado in trade as late as 1970. they provided a few decent years for the sox too.

idseer
12-19-2004, 10:33 AM
Dick:

Correct when Luis was reacquired before the start of the 1968 season he said he didn't really mean what he said when he left on bad terms.

It was one of the first questions asked of him by the Chicago media.

Lip
as if he could or would have said anything else. :smile:

naprvllesoxfan
12-19-2004, 10:49 AM
You married a Flub fab?!?!? You poor girl. Are the kids ok?
My son has good taste and is a Sox fan. My daughter on the other had (and her ex-boyfriend) are cub fans. I just don't know where I went wrong. I should have know from day one I was in trouble with her. Her newborn picture had her middle finger up in the air!! I guess this is my cross to bear in life. lol

Thanks to everyone for all the great posts! Very informative and I can't wait to share with my husband.

Lip Man 1
12-19-2004, 01:21 PM
Ummmm....ID:

The Sox had more wins and a better winning percentage then the Orioles in 1963, 1964, 1965. The only year the O's were better was 1966 when they won the World Series. I don't know where you got your figures from.

Ward's 1967 totals were modest HOWEVER they were among the team leaders. That says something about the 1967 White Sox but do you think Luis would have approached even those modest numbers? Defensively Hansen was a more then capable pick up in Luis' place for those years and he offered some pop to boot.

Where we disagree is this. I don't care about OBP, SLG, XYZ and all the statistical mumbo jumbo especially from back in the 60's when nobody, and I mean nobody, ever heard of them or gave a damn.

All I care about is wins. The Sox averaged 96 from 63 to 65. That trade was a big part of the reason why.

Lip

Hitmen77
12-19-2004, 01:24 PM
Has anyone heard the legend that the White Sox are cursed by crappy ownership?

Legend has it that the team was bought in the early 80s by a short-sighted millionaire who proceeded to alienate the Sox fan base. According to this folklore, this owner whitewashed all the character out of the franchise and even gave some of our most popular institutions over to the Cubs. This fan base purge culminated in a so-called white-flag trade where the ownership gave up on the team in July when it was only 3 games out of first. Once all the fans were gone, there was no money to spend on the team and the Sox became a small market team that couldn't spend any money to keep or acquire any decent players and had an organization that was too incompetent to produce any home-grown talent. Blame for all of this mess was endless heaped on the remaining loyal Sox fans for not supporting the team.

I don't know, I heard this story from some Cubs fans of mine, but it's too unbelieveable to be true.

:reinsy Believe it! It's all true!

Lip Man 1
12-19-2004, 01:27 PM
Hitmen:

Now THAT'S funny!

Lip

santo=dorf
12-19-2004, 01:57 PM
Hitmen:

Now THAT'S funny!

Lip
Actually it's depressing. :(: :anon:

LongLiveFisk
12-19-2004, 02:13 PM
Has anyone heard the legend that the White Sox are cursed by crappy ownership?


Yes. See my earlier post. :smile:

idseer
12-19-2004, 04:00 PM
Ummmm....ID:

The Sox had more wins and a better winning percentage then the Orioles in 1963, 1964, 1965. The only year the O's were better was 1966 when they won the World Series. I don't know where you got your figures from.

Ward's 1967 totals were modest HOWEVER they were among the team leaders. That says something about the 1967 White Sox but do you think Luis would have approached even those modest numbers? Defensively Hansen was a more then capable pick up in Luis' place for those years and he offered some pop to boot.

Where we disagree is this. I don't care about OBP, SLG, XYZ and all the statistical mumbo jumbo especially from back in the 60's when nobody, and I mean nobody, ever heard of them or gave a damn.

All I care about is wins. The Sox averaged 96 from 63 to 65. That trade was a big part of the reason why.

Lip
you're right about the wins. i must have been thinking '64 '65 '66 where they DID do better.

as for the stats, you may not care about them and they may not have been as widely accepted as they are now, BUT ... if they're legitimate figures today, they were just as legitimate then even if they weren't as popular. i agree that some stats get kinda silly but i believe on base % is and was pretty significant.

my main point was about how lopsided the trade was. how about if you look at it from yet another perspective? the orioles finished in 7th place in '62 ... the sox finished in 5th. who made the biggest improvement? if you agree it was the o's then how can you say it was such a lopsided trade?

batmanZoSo
12-19-2004, 04:55 PM
As a matter of fact he did.

In January 1963 Luis was traded to the Orioles along with Al Smith for Pete Ward, Dave Nicholson, Hoyt Wilhelm and Ron Hansen. The deal was an absolute steal for the Sox immediately rocketing them back into pennent contention. From 1963 through 1965 they averaged 95 wins.

Aparicio was a salary cut in 1962 and was very angry about it. The perception was that he was slowing down. (It turned out to be wrong just a few off years by the future hall of famer.) Upon leaving he stated to the Chicago media that 'it took the Sox 40 years to win a pennent and it'll take then another forty years to do it again.'

For more on Aparicio feel free to read this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2489

Lip
It's already been 45 years so he's wrong! We win. :cool:

davenicholson
12-20-2004, 01:40 PM
nicholson was (and is) a long standing joke. never hit even .230 for the sox while providing a few deep flies.

HEY NOW!

Lip Man 1
12-20-2004, 02:42 PM
1963:

22 home runs...70 RBI's... I guess that's 'nothing.'

Lip

TommyJohn
12-20-2004, 06:58 PM
HEY NOW!
Yeah! I'll bet that Moe Drabowsky still hears the sharp crack of the bat in his
sleep, and still sees that home run going over the roof. Of course, every other
pitcher in the AL from that era looks at their strikeout totals and thanks Nick for
being there to pad them.