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View Full Version : $333K was too much.


Clement's beard
12-17-2004, 09:51 PM
If the numbers are correct , the White Sox lost out on Clement because they could not come up with an extra million over 3 years(333k a year):rolleyes: . If the White Sox offer was 3 years and 24 million and the Red Sox was 3 years and 25 million, you do the math.

anewman35
12-17-2004, 09:53 PM
If the numbers are correct , the White Sox lost out on Clement because they could not come up with an extra million over 3 years(333k a year):rolleyes: . If the White Sox offer was 3 years and 24 million and the Red Sox was 3 years and 25 million, you do the math.
Please explain to me how you know that he'd have come here if we'd offered the same money. For that matter, please explain to me how you know for sure what our final offer was.

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 09:53 PM
If the numbers are correct , the White Sox lost out on Clement because they could not come up with an extra million over 3 years(333k a year):rolleyes: . If the White Sox offer was 3 years and 24 million and the Red Sox was 3 years and 25 million, you do the math.Does anyone actually read the press releases? :rolleyes:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041217&content_id=923895&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp
"The teams that were still in it were teams that were willing to pay the price," Axelrod said.

"I think the overriding factor became where he thought would be the best chance for him to win for all three years for the contract he was going to enter into. Boston and the Angels have dedicated ownership and management to have them in contention year after year."

Axelrod said there was one personal factor that might have swung the decision to the Sox in Clement's mind.

"In the end, geography may have taken a prominent place," Axelrod said. "Matt's family and his wife's family are in Pennsylvania. The thought of his dad and other family members being able to easily get to Boston to see him pitch became a big factor for him. Who wouldn't want to pitch in front of their family at Fenway Park?"

Clement's beard
12-17-2004, 09:56 PM
Does anyone actually read press releases? :rolleyes:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041217&content_id=923895&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp
Please! The offer was competitive but not good enough. The agent is not going to say-"Matt only wanted to go where the highest dollars were, that's all he cared about".

Clement's beard
12-17-2004, 09:57 PM
For that matter, please explain to me how you know for sure what our final offer was.
What is the first word in my post?

SEALgep
12-17-2004, 09:58 PM
Please! The offer was competitive but not good enough. The agent is not going to say-"Matt only wanted to go where the highest dollars were, that's all he cared about".What were you prepared to pay him?

Ol' No. 2
12-17-2004, 09:58 PM
Please! The offer was competitive but not good enough. The agent is not going to say-"Matt only wanted to go where the highest dollars were, that's all he cared about".In other words, your mind is made up and you're not going to be swayed by all the facts that are known.

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 09:59 PM
Please! The offer was competitive but not good enough. The agent is not going to say-"Matt only wanted to go where the highest dollars were, that's all he cared about".I'm sure Boston winning the World Series last season didn't play a role in Clement's decision either.

Jjav829
12-17-2004, 10:00 PM
:reinsy
"Funny story, you guys are gonna love this. So I got the contract offer all set, right. We're prepared to match Clement's highest offer. Next thing you know this Chicago Bandits press conference starts. I wander down there and I see Jennie Finch. Yadda, yadda, yadda, Clement's signing with the Red Sox. Funny, right?"

(Please note, it's a joke. I don't need to be reminded of Reinsdorf's current location in Arizona)

anewman35
12-17-2004, 10:02 PM
What is the first word in my post?
So it's ok to baselessly bash the organization however much you want, as long as you stick the word "If" in front of it?

If Matt Clement had checked WSI before making his decision, he might have been put off by how much everybody seems to hate the White Sox. If that was the case, it's all the fault of the posters here for not being more positive. If every poster here had just changed all their "cheap and stupid" posts into "smart and generous" posts, you do the math.

Clement's beard
12-17-2004, 10:02 PM
This quote in that article might tell you something about Jerry Reinsdorf.


"I think the overriding factor became where he thought would be the best chance for him to win for all three years for the contract he was going to enter into. Boston and the Angels have dedicated ownership and management to have them in contention year after year.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-17-2004, 10:03 PM
His agent stated Boston & Angels were the final two teams based on their chances of winning over the next 3 years.

I think the White Sox offer was probably in the same ballpark range.

I hope Odalis Perez doesn't share the same mindset regarding the White Sox. I doubt he received the Chicago Tribune daily like Clement - cementing White Sox doom each and everyday.

santo=dorf
12-17-2004, 10:11 PM
This quote in that article might tell you something about Jerry Reinsdorf.


"I think the overriding factor became where he thought would be the best chance for him to win for all three years for the contract he was going to enter into. Boston and the Angels have dedicated ownership and management to have them in contention year after year.
So then the $333K wasn't as much of a factor as playing for a competitive organization. Which is the opposite of what you are saying. :kukoo:

Clement's beard
12-17-2004, 10:12 PM
What were you prepared to pay him?
Match the offer and make him decide if it is worth it to him to leave a city he loves.

anewman35
12-17-2004, 10:13 PM
This quote in that article might tell you something about Jerry Reinsdorf.


"I think the overriding factor became where he thought would be the best chance for him to win for all three years for the contract he was going to enter into. Boston and the Angels have dedicated ownership and management to have them in contention year after year.
It's a shame the White Sox haven't been one of the top two teams in their division for 10 of the last 12 years. They're never in contention.

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 10:16 PM
:reinsy
"Funny story, you guys are gonna love this. So I got the contract offer all set, right. We're prepared to match Clement's highest offer. Next thing you know this Chicago Bandits press conference starts. I wander down there and I see Jennie Finch. Yadda, yadda, yadda, Clement's signing with the Red Sox. Funny, right?"

Jjav, Jerry's in Arizona. He couldnt have been at the Jennie Finch press conference. You're an idiot. :D:

voodoochile
12-17-2004, 10:32 PM
It's a shame the White Sox haven't been one of the top two teams in their division for 10 of the last 12 years. They're never in contention.
and how many of those finishes were second place?

It's a great stat, but how about this one?

It's a fact that the Sox have only won their division 3 times in JR's tenure as owner/President of the Sox organization and have only done it once in the last decade.

But look at all those great 2nd place finishes...:rolleyes:

anewman35
12-17-2004, 10:37 PM
and how many of those finishes were second place?

It's a great stat, but how about this one?

It's a fact that the Sox have only won their division 3 times in JR's tenure as owner/President of the Sox organization and have only done it once in the last decade.

But look at all those great 2nd place finishes...:rolleyes:
I'm not saying it's really something to be proud of, but you also can't deny that the White Sox are in contention year after year. They've usually choked and blown it, but, well, that's not the point right now.

mandmandm
12-17-2004, 10:38 PM
I think the emphasis was missed in the text below. JR can not hide from a 25 year track record. Are they the only team that approaches every major contract with deferred dollars? I sure as hell do not hear ESPN announce every new signing with talk of deferred monies, as is done on the south side.>>


"The teams that were still in it were teams that were willing to pay the price," Axelrod said.

"I think the overriding factor became where he thought would be the best chance for him to win for all three years for the contract he was going to enter into. Boston and the Angels have dedicated ownership and management to have them in contention year after year."

Axelrod said there was one personal factor that might have swung the decision to the Sox in Clement's mind.

"In the end, geography may have taken a prominent place," Axelrod said. "Matt's family and his wife's family are in Pennsylvania. The thought of his dad and other family members being able to easily get to Boston to see him pitch became a big factor for him. Who wouldn't want to pitch in front of their family at Fenway Park?"

Lip Man 1
12-17-2004, 10:55 PM
Voodoo:

Excellent post!

Clement's Beard:

I agree with you pointing out the comment from Matt's agent about having a chance to win. That goes beyond trying to win the 'Comedy' Central and gets to the heart of this organization.

Lip

BRDSR
12-18-2004, 01:14 AM
I think the emphasis was missed in the text below. JR can not hide from a 25 year track record. Are they the only team that approaches every major contract with deferred dollars? I sure as hell do not hear ESPN announce every new signing with talk of deferred monies, as is done on the south side.>>


"The teams that were still in it were teams that were willing to pay the price," Axelrod said.

"I think the overriding factor became where he thought would be the best chance for him to win for all three years for the contract he was going to enter into. Boston and the Angels have dedicated ownership and management to have them in contention year after year."

Axelrod said there was one personal factor that might have swung the decision to the Sox in Clement's mind.

"In the end, geography may have taken a prominent place," Axelrod said. "Matt's family and his wife's family are in Pennsylvania. The thought of his dad and other family members being able to easily get to Boston to see him pitch became a big factor for him. Who wouldn't want to pitch in front of their family at Fenway Park?"
(slowly rocks back and forth while covering his ears with his hands) Why do you have to yell (wimper wimper). Can't we all just get along without using such large fonts?

jabrch
12-18-2004, 01:31 AM
Match the offer and make him decide if it is worth it to him to leave a city he loves.

If the money is equal, why wouldn't he want to go and play for the defending World Champions?

And sadly, after hearing some of the Sox fans bitch for the past 3 years, I can't blame him for not wanting to come here. Not that we don't have a right to bitch, but why should he go somewhere that has a sub 5% chance of winning, and bitchy fans when he can go to the defending champs with bitchy fans who are at least on a WS high?

voodoochile
12-18-2004, 08:33 AM
I'm not saying it's really something to be proud of, but you also can't deny that the White Sox are in contention year after year. They've usually choked and blown it, but, well, that's not the point right now.
No, it's just not your point. The fact remains. Neither the Sox nor their fans should be proud of second place finishes, IMO, unless it includes a trip to the playoffs as a wild card.

Finishing second is just the best way to lose, but in the end, you're still a loser. Anyone remember the guy who won the silver in ANY Olympic sport last year? Anyone? Beuhler? Beuhler? And at least there you get a medal and the honor of saying you're the second best at what you do in the entire world. The Sox are only second best in the weakest division in baseball.

Last year the Cardinals finished second and the Yankees and Astros can claim they were second in their given league. The Sox were about 15th in baseball last year (and most of those years you point to). They were certainly no better than 9th...

voodoochile
12-18-2004, 08:35 AM
If the money is equal, why wouldn't he want to go and play for the defending World Champions?

And sadly, after hearing some of the Sox fans bitch for the past 3 years, I can't blame him for not wanting to come here. Not that we don't have a right to bitch, but why should he go somewhere that has a sub 5% chance of winning, and bitchy fans when he can go to the defending champs with bitchy fans who are at least on a WS high?
Yeah, that's a good idea. Be the first guy to sign up to replace Pedro and Schilling to pitch for a team that just won the WS...

Boston ain't that close to Philly either...

PaleHoseGeorge
12-18-2004, 09:41 AM
Here's a fact I guarantee we can all agree on: Clement went for roughly 3 years/$8MM and the Sox did not finish higher than third in the competition.

Given where salaries are heading, I don't think Clement's signing price was unexpected or even unreasonable. The Sox were also-rans, and suggesting we were strong also-rans is simply not based in reality.

So the search for a starter continues... and the Caballo savings sits in a bank vault, not the clubhouse.
:(:

Hitmen77
12-18-2004, 09:42 AM
It's a shame the White Sox haven't been one of the top two teams in their division for 10 of the last 12 years. They're never in contention.
Talk about a misleading statement! You make it sound like the Sox are on par with the Yankees and Braves in terms of division titles and success in the last 10 yrs. The reality is that the Sox are stuck in mediocrity. I'll give them credit for not being awful like the Brewers, but to call them one of the "top" teams since 1994 totally misrepresents the reality that this is a perpetually also-ran team in the baseball's weakest division that has trouble competing with small market teams such as Cleveland and Minnesota.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2004, 11:30 AM
PHG:

Bingo!

Lip

Rocklive99
12-18-2004, 11:54 AM
I think it's a safe assumption that if the ChiSox offer was the same, he still would have gone with Boston

Paulwny
12-18-2004, 12:18 PM
I think it's a safe assumption that if the ChiSox offer was the same, he still would have gone with Boston
Yep, all thinks being equal a player will look at which team will have more success. Instead of offering more $$$ this organization is content in saying "We tried".

HebrewHammer
12-18-2004, 12:58 PM
If the numbers are correct , the White Sox lost out on Clement because they could not come up with an extra million over 3 years(333k a year):rolleyes: . If the White Sox offer was 3 years and 24 million and the Red Sox was 3 years and 25 million, you do the math.Anyone else smell a ScRubs troll here? Go back to ScRubsTalk.

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:

Mickster
12-18-2004, 01:32 PM
Anyone else smell a ScRubs troll here? Go back to ScRubsTalk.

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:I smell someone who needs to change his screen name rather quickly......or.....go register with the www.sonsofsamhorn.com (http://www.sonsofsamhorn.com/) as soon as possible.

cheeses_h_rice
12-18-2004, 01:45 PM
I think it's a safe assumption that if the ChiSox offer was the same, he still would have gone with Boston
Not at all. I'm sure Clement would have taken hours, scratching his chin, wondering "World Series champs or .500 team? World Series champs or .500 team?"

DaleJRFan
12-18-2004, 03:14 PM
If the numbers are correct , the White Sox lost out on Clement because they could not come up with an extra million over 3 years(333k a year):rolleyes: . If the White Sox offer was 3 years and 24 million and the Red Sox was 3 years and 25 million, you do the math.
Clement went to the BoSox because he felt like they are more committed to winning and he has a better chance of success in Boston. It makes sense. Plus, his family is in New Hampshire... Still bummed about it, but what can you do?

Since the Sox now have $7mill to tinker with, is there any potential to signing a B-list starter to fill the #5 and then turning around and signing Polanco, or do you think they'll either sign a big name FA, or just pocket the money (Schoeneweis #5??).... Personally, I have nothing against Schoeneweis, I just feel like filling the #5 and moving Contreras and Garland up in the rotation is the same as conceding the Central Division.

Do the Sox have many options to this point? Loiaza? Perez? Trade for Armas Jr. or Washburn???

What do you all think? I got kinda tired of watching Esteban swearing to himself and spitting out his gum every time he gave up a 3run blast last season and Schoeneweis walking the bases loaded doesn't seem too appealing......

balke
12-19-2004, 10:34 AM
Regardless of how "little" we had to come up with for him, he was paid too much. If people are going to freak out on this board about Contreres getting 6 mil, and Garcia getting 9, how does Clement deserve 8.5?

That being said, there's not a lot of pitchers left right now, and I'm guessing the budget right now would be exceeded with a 7 mil hike. Using bad math, I think we are about 2 mil off of what Kenny told the media his limit was. Aren't Lowe and Perez still out there? I still think he lands someone of mediocre value.

SoxBoy14
12-19-2004, 10:59 AM
I've never been sold on Matt Clement either. He sures beats the heck out of Arnie Munoz, Felix Diaz and/or Danny Wrong. However, when I hear the White Sox front office talk about specifics of an offer to a potential free agent that was just under what the other team offered, it smells of the Alex Fernandez $30 million dollar offer after Alex had received a $32 million dollar offer. It allows the Sox front office to say "we tried. Please keep coming you saps." In the end folks, this is Chicago, if JR and crew can't compete, sell the team to a group that can.

LVSoxFan
12-20-2004, 09:54 AM
So what is the status of Perez? Anybody hear?

Dolanski
12-20-2004, 10:13 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox19.html

From the SunTimes article...
That plan, of course, was the Sox' attempt to land free agent Matt Clement, who agreed to a deal with the Red Sox on Friday. The Sox' offer was reported to be about $4 million short of what the right-hander eventually agreed to.

So I guess it was a little more than a million over the years.

In case anyone forgot, Clement signed with last years' WS Champs who are poised to make another run at a championship and have been in the playoffs 3 years in a row. We can't beat the Twins. Oh and we just revamped our lineup completely...If you are him, what team is more likely to get you to the playoffs? The Red Sox or the White Sox?

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2004, 10:21 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox19.html

From the SunTimes article...
That plan, of course, was the Sox' attempt to land free agent Matt Clement, who agreed to a deal with the Red Sox on Friday. The Sox' offer was reported to be about $4 million short of what the right-hander eventually agreed to.

So I guess it was a little more than a million over the years.

In case anyone forgot, Clement signed with last years' WS Champs who are poised to make another run at a championship and have been in the playoffs 3 years in a row. We can't beat the Twins. Oh and we just revamped our lineup completely...If you are him, what team is more likely to get you to the playoffs? The Red Sox or the White Sox?
Wasn't Bruce Levine reporting that the Sox increased their offer on Friday? IIRC, the original offer was $21M, but the $1M difference may have been between what he eventually signed for and the increased offer. In any case, as you point out, it doesn't sound like money was the deciding factor.

Hangar18
12-20-2004, 10:31 AM
Not at all. I'm sure Clement would have taken hours, scratching his chin, wondering "World Series champs or .500 team? World Series champs or .500 team?"
Not to mention the fact that the SOX would try and DUMP him 2 yrs into his
"contract" ......... just in time for the MLB Lockout shortly

Hangar18
12-20-2004, 10:38 AM
[QUOTE=DaleJRFan]

Since the Sox now have $7mill to tinker with....

A) is there any potential to signing a B-list starter to fill the #5

B) or just pocket the money (Schoeneweis #5??)....

QUOTE]


:reinsy " Cmon guys. You know what
Im gonna do with that Extra Money. Yachts arent Free you know"

mantis1212
12-20-2004, 10:47 AM
Wasn't Bruce Levine reporting that the Sox increased their offer on Friday? IIRC, the original offer was $21M, but the $1M difference may have been between what he eventually signed for and the increased offer. In any case, as you point out, it doesn't sound like money was the deciding factor.
Right, plus Boston could have just continued to up their offer until the White Sox couldn't go any farther...

CubKilla
12-20-2004, 11:25 AM
and how many of those finishes were second place?

It's a great stat, but how about this one?

It's a fact that the Sox have only won their division 3 times in JR's tenure as owner/President of the Sox organization and have only done it once in the last decade.

But look at all those great 2nd place finishes...:rolleyes:
Beat me to the punch Voodoo. anewmans assessment has to be the most assinine post I ever read.

2nd Place=1st loser

But at least we're competitive :rolleyes:

anewman35
12-20-2004, 11:29 AM
Beat me to the punch Voodoo. anewmans assessment has to be the most assinine post I ever read.

2nd Place=1st loser

But at least we're competitive :rolleyes:
Again. I'm not saying we're good. We're not. But we're far from bad. To me, finishing second every year sucks, but it's at least competitive. Year after year, we at least have a pretty good chance of winning the division. Lots of teams can't say that.

CubKilla
12-20-2004, 11:34 AM
Again. I'm not saying we're good. We're not. But we're far from bad. To me, finishing second every year sucks, but it's at least competitive. Year after year, we at least have a pretty good chance of winning the division. Lots of teams can't say that.
Put the Sox in the AL East or AL West and we'll see how competitive the White Sox are. The Sox are only competitve recently because of the Division they inhabit. All of the holes that have been obvious the past two seasons would have been GLARING in the ALE or ALW.

LVSoxFan
12-20-2004, 11:40 AM
I agree. The Sox had a great habit of getting spanked by more complete teams--not to mention their dismal, almost futile record on the West Coast.

Add to that them getting whipped by the Twins, and then the constant, inexplicable losses to the lowly Tigers in the last couple of years.

If we sign Perez I'll retain some hope; if we don't and go with some scrub or b-lister, I'll look forward to 2006.

As for Schoenweiss, I'd hold my breath and bet that we'll have a good first half, and then proceed with our usual post-All Star collapse. Without a quality fifth starter, I'd say look forward to battling with Cleveland for second place. Again.

anewman35
12-20-2004, 11:41 AM
Put the Sox in the AL East or AL West and we'll see how competitive the White Sox are. The Sox are only competitve recently because of the Division they inhabit. All of the holes that have been obvious the past two seasons would have been GLARING in the ALE or ALW.
You're right. But last I checked, the Sox weren't in the AL East or AL West. Somebody in the Central goes to the playoffs, and, almost every year, we at least have a decent chance on paper of doing it. To me, that's being competitive.

CubKilla
12-20-2004, 11:50 AM
You're right. But last I checked, the Sox weren't in the AL East or AL West. Somebody in the Central goes to the playoffs, and, almost every year, we at least have a decent chance on paper of doing it. To me, that's being competitive.
Suffice it to say, being competitive is enough for you. Continue to spend your money on JR's competitive, yet mediocre, teams. Nothing short of winning and going to the playoffs every year is enough for me.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-20-2004, 12:28 PM
You're right. But last I checked, the Sox weren't in the AL East or AL West. Somebody in the Central goes to the playoffs, and, almost every year, we at least have a decent chance on paper of doing it. To me, that's being competitive.
That's not even remotely "competitive." If we were making the playoffs nearly every year, yeah sure you could attach the adjective competitive to the Chicago White Sox.

The facts are we AREN'T making the playoffs -- not even with the gift of playing in a weak division with a bunch of lilleputian competitors.

Except 2000 we never even get a sniff of a chance to beat a superior team in a short post-season series. That's downright pathetic, forget about "competitive."