PDA

View Full Version : Sox lose on Clement, What's next?


OG4LIFE
12-17-2004, 08:24 PM
OOPS (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041217&content_id=923895&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp)

Plan B? Perez?

Brian26
12-17-2004, 08:26 PM
Man that is a total bummer.

Uribe's Weed
12-17-2004, 08:26 PM
I wanted Perez more, anyway. I believe it was previously posted that Clement had a 5.03 ERA or something post- all star break. Would we really want to over pay for that? I think Perez has a brighter future.

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 08:27 PM
Odalis Perez. Everyone else is garbage.

Soxzilla
12-17-2004, 08:27 PM
We can still resign Scotty S.

Slow Mike
12-17-2004, 08:27 PM
Since Clement reportedly agreed to sign with Boston, are the White Sox going to go after Odalis Perez? What if he signs elsewhere? Then who will our #5 starter be? Jason Grilli? Worst case scenario hopefully we resign Scott Scoenweis as our number #5.

Whitesoxtom
12-17-2004, 08:28 PM
Wow, the article didn't even mention the White Sox as a contender. As far as whats next?

I would like to see us sign Odalis Perez, Placido Polanco, and A.J. Pierzinski. Jerry will have to expand the payroll by a few million, but Kenny said he would if he found the right players to bring in.

Chrisaway
12-17-2004, 08:28 PM
I wonder what Floyd Bannister is doing nowadays?

Soxzilla
12-17-2004, 08:30 PM
Wow, the article didn't even mention the White Sox as a contender. As far as whats next?

I would like to see us sign Odalis Perez, Placido Polanco, and A.J. Pierzinski. Jerry will have to expand the payroll by a few million, but Kenny said he would if he found the right players to bring in.
Please realize that AJ would not help this team in the least bit.

You don't sign a catcher if they are DECENT offensively, yet suck defensively ... please. With Davis and Burke, who are both adequate with the rotation, you can pinch it for in late innings, which makes AJ all but useless...

...Then there are his clubhouse problems and the fact he is a BIG jagbag.

batmanZoSo
12-17-2004, 08:32 PM
Come on..they already won it all. Quit hogging! Mom! Boston's hogging!

mdep524
12-17-2004, 08:33 PM
Give me an O... give me a D... give me an A... give me an L....

eastchicagosoxfan
12-17-2004, 08:33 PM
Go with Grili. Save the cash. A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not, but having the money to buy the missing link can put us over the top.

You gotta know when to fold 'em
Know when to hold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run
Man am I drunk

ScottyTheSoxFan
12-17-2004, 08:33 PM
Since Clement reportedly agreed to sign with Boston, are the White Sox going to go after Odalis Perez? What if he signs elsewhere? Then who will our #5 starter be? Jason Grilli? Worst case scenario hopefully we resign Scott Scoenweis as our number #5.
schoenweis? ill take grilli over him.

Palehose13
12-17-2004, 08:33 PM
Next:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/07/05/diamondbacks_dodgers_ap/t1_perez_ap.jpg

DaleJRFan
12-17-2004, 08:34 PM
OOPS (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041217&content_id=923895&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp)

Plan B? Perez?
Sounds like the typical White Sox underbid. What was Clement offered by the Sox? 3 years, 21 million? When the defending champs are offering 4 million more and the west coast payroll bustin' Angels offered 3 million more... Now we get to hear the "Hey, we tried" crap again. Why can't the Sox ever just "get the deal done"

JR and KW should read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446353256/ref=pd_sim_b_3/002-2344511-4228851?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

MeanFish
12-17-2004, 08:34 PM
If Schoney's healthy, he's not a bad option. He pitched real well for us until he got hurt last year.

Ol' No. 2
12-17-2004, 08:34 PM
schoenweis? ill take grilli over him.I'd sign Hernandez over either one of them if it came to that.

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 08:35 PM
Go with Grili. Save the cash. A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not, but having the money to buy the missing link can put us over the top.

The fifth starter spot has been our downfall for far too long. It's time to fix it. Anyways if we wait until the season starts and try to improve by trade, we actually have to give something up to get something, which we dont have to do now.

MeanFish
12-17-2004, 08:35 PM
Good point. But I mean, if there was absolutely nobody left, I wouldn't be that angry about Schoney.

HomeFish
12-17-2004, 08:35 PM
We need to face reality here: no self-respecting FA will want to sign with the White Sox. Our only shot is to wait for mid-season and grab somebody who doesn't have a no-trade clause.

Unfortunately, by mid-season, we'll also be out of contention, so JR might have an excuse to not spend that extra $7 million.

santo=dorf
12-17-2004, 08:35 PM
Go with Grili. Save the cash. A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not, but having the money to buy the missing link can put us over the top.
Mr. Reinsdorf, I welcome you to the boards.

Ol' No. 2
12-17-2004, 08:36 PM
Sounds like the typical White Sox underbid. What was Clement offered by the Sox? 3 years, 21 million? When the defending champs are offering 4 million more and the west coast payroll bustin' Angels offered 3 million more... Now we get to hear the "Hey, we tried" crap again. Why can't the Sox ever just "get the deal done".Time to change the sig. Again. (groan)

DaleJRFan
12-17-2004, 08:37 PM
If Schoney's healthy, he's not a bad option. He pitched real well for us until he got hurt last year.
I concur. When he was healthy early on, he was more consistent than Buehrle. When he started having elbow trouble, he lost velocity, control and the ERA ballooned.

It sucks that we now are talking about 5th starter "alternatives" instead of the BIG FA that SHOULD have bene signed. Damn JR.

Since the odds of the Sox beating the Twins are now about 20/80, Go Tigers... I guess.

Soxzilla
12-17-2004, 08:37 PM
We need to face reality here: no self-respecting FA will want to sign with the White Sox. Our only shot is to wait for mid-season and grab somebody who doesn't have a no-trade clause.

Unfortunately, by mid-season, we'll also be out of contention, so JR might have an excuse to not spend that extra $7 million.
Because Jermaine Dye isn't self-respecting.:rolleyes:

Whatever Homefish... whatever.

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 08:41 PM
Go with Grili. Save the cash. A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not, but having the money to buy the missing link can put us over the top.Mr. Reinsdorf, I welcome you to the boards.:) :) :)

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 08:42 PM
Who else is seriously in the running for Odalis Perez? The only other names I heard connected with him were Boston and Washington. The former is out of the running with Clement. The latter's situation makes it unlikely for him to go there.

oeo
12-17-2004, 08:42 PM
Man, that just ruined my day. :whiner:

So....ChiSoxTony, what do you have to say?

MeanFish
12-17-2004, 08:43 PM
We could always give John Olerud a ST invite to see if his stuff is any good as a pitcher...

HomeFish
12-17-2004, 08:44 PM
Who else is seriously in the running for Odalis Perez? The only other names I heard connected with him were Boston and Washington. The former is out of the running with Clement. The latter's situation makes it unlikely for him to go there.

I suspect that all of the Clement losers will now go after Perez. That includes Anaheim, who will easily outbid us.

DaleJRFan
12-17-2004, 08:58 PM
Does this mean that we can Booooo Clement when the BoSox visit Comisky?

Wealz
12-17-2004, 09:01 PM
Polanco, Peirzynski, and Hermanson goes to the rotation.

JUribe1989
12-17-2004, 09:01 PM
CHISOXTONY, You have got a lot of explaining to do!

DaleJRFan
12-17-2004, 09:03 PM
Time to change the sig. Again. (groan)
oh... I did... I did.

SomebodyToldMe
12-17-2004, 09:05 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

MAN! I just yelled out and everyone in my house asked what the heck is wrong with me.

Dammit!

bmac5001
12-17-2004, 09:08 PM
am i wrong in thinking perez will want more money than what even clement is getting? or would it be around the same? either way, i don't see how we could sign perez if we don't even have the money for clement. unless perez is somehow cheaper...

Win1ForMe
12-17-2004, 09:10 PM
I know I'm completely outnumbered here, but I really wouldn't mind Eric Milton.

OG4LIFE
12-17-2004, 09:11 PM
am i wrong in thinking perez will want more money than what even clement is getting? or would it be around the same? either way, i don't see how we could sign perez if we don't even have the money for clement. unless perez is somehow cheaper...
that is my biggest worry... if anything, i would thing perez WOULD be more expensive- he's younger, hes left handed, he's been a little more consistent than clement, he has no injury worries... and i would honestly say he's better.

just another bidding war we'll lose, to either LA, anaheim or the tribe...

santo=dorf
12-17-2004, 09:12 PM
Odalis Perez wears number 45, maybe if we guarantee him his number, he'll come here!

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 09:13 PM
I know I'm completely outnumbered here, but I really wouldn't mind Eric Milton. His 190 home runs in six full seasons would look really impressive if he were a hitter. Too bad he's a pitcher and that's how many he's yielded. The guy is an extreme fly ball pitcher. I'd rather go with Derek Lowe if I had to. Millwood's a better option as well, but I dont think any of these guys are worth the money they're asking for. Not even close. If Clement is worth 3 years 25, then these guys are worth about 3 years 12-15 million.

I_Liked_Manuel
12-17-2004, 09:14 PM
i'm not so upset about not signing clement, but i'm beyond irate that they underbid on another player. we would be a playoff team had they signed clement and visqel

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 09:14 PM
just another bidding war we'll lose, to either LA, anaheim or the tribe...
LA is not going to resign Perez. They've already denied arbitration. The team to watch for is probably Anaheim.

Wealz
12-17-2004, 09:19 PM
The lesson that should be learned from this is the Sox should not target players the big boys want.

Also, where is the plan? If you are going to acquire Podsednik why sign Dye? An outfield of Everett, Podsednik, and Rowand isn't any worse than they have now. That would have allowed them to use the Dye money somewhere else like for example Koskie who was a mid-range sign for the Jays @ 3/$17M and have money left over for Polanco or/and Peirzynski.

munchman33
12-17-2004, 09:20 PM
I'm thinking we'll have to settle for someone like Millwood. No way Perez goes from somewhere like Dodger Stadium to Coors East.

c4birdiemaker
12-17-2004, 09:24 PM
i'd say that's what we are all askingMan, that just ruined my day. :whiner:

So....ChiSoxTony, what do you have to say?

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 09:25 PM
The lesson that should be learned from this is the Sox should not target players the big boys want.

Also, where is the plan? If you are going to acquire Podsednik why sign Dye? An outfield of Everett, Podsednik, and Rowand isn't any worse than they have now. That would have allowed them to use the Dye money somewhere else like for example Koskie who was a mid-range sign for the Jays @ 3/$17M and have money left over for Polanco or/and Peirzynski.Because Everett is our DH insurance if Frank misses the start of next season. Would you rather see Borchard as our DH come opening day?

c4birdiemaker
12-17-2004, 09:26 PM
millwood sucks and he is greedy ta boot...boras burnt him...millwood should get a new agentI'm thinking we'll have to settle for someone like Millwood. No way Perez goes from somewhere like Dodger Stadium to Coors East.

Dick Allen
12-17-2004, 09:27 PM
I've had it with this crap. There are three or four teams that get all the top-notch, high priced players because they spend out of control and let the other teams pick up the scraps. Nice league.

Screw JR and KW.
Screw Bud Selig.
Screw Scott Boras.
Screw George Steinbrenner.
Screw the players union.
Screw the greedy millionaires.
Screw the Cubs and their idiot fans.
Screw the media.
Screw MLB.

The only team getting my money in 2005 is the Schaumburg Flyers.

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 09:27 PM
Odalis Perez is a lot like the Mark Buehrle of last year. The both walked about 2 batters per 9 innings and struck out 6 batters per 9 innings while yielding a high number of home runs. Buehlre's G/F was 1.5 while Odalis's was 1.62. They're both fairly efficient lefties as well. Buehrle's BAA was .271 while Odalis's was .250 which can be explained by the NL/AL difference. The one area where Buehrle wins out is in durability and the ability to get that one extra inning, which is why Buehrle is such a great pitcher. Buehrle's VORP was 50.8 while Perez's was 49.7 (Clement's was only 36.9).

Put in those terms, I think it would be a great idea to sign Odalis, even if it meant paying 8 or 9 million a year. DO IT NOW KENNY!

BTW Odalis is the guy I've been advocating all along. I kinda got caught up in the Clement stuff, but I think Odalis would probably be a little less scary and more reliable than Clement.

mjmcend
12-17-2004, 09:28 PM
Does this mean that we can Booooo Clement when the BoSox visit Comisky?
Of, course.

ChiSoxTony
12-17-2004, 09:29 PM
Hey all i owe everyone an apology. My source at the players union informed me that they instructed Clements agent not to sign the deal with the WS because it was loaded with deferred compensation. Its my understanding that Clement was offered 3yr 24mil by the WS, but most of the money was deferred. The union has begun a behind the scenes campaign with agents to deter players from signing contracts with deferred compensation. Apparently they feel that it will keep salaries down. Clement wanted to come here but the structure wasn't right. Once again my apologies.

Jjav829
12-17-2004, 09:29 PM
Lovely. I knew I shouldn't get too excited about him coming here. So much for hoping he'd choose the White Sox because he likes the city and wants to raise his money, I mean child here. He followed his heart....right where the money led him. What's next? Who knows. I'm sure we'll probably lose out on Odalis Perez. Maybe we can hope the Yankees want us back in the RJ deal and we can get Vazquez.

O, and Kenny, stay the **** away from Pierzynski!

illinibk
12-17-2004, 09:30 PM
Put in those terms, I think it would be a great idea to sign Odalis, even if it meant paying 8 or 9 million a year. DO IT NOW KENNY!
That's what I have been saying for a few days now. I would rather have another lefty than Clement and his 5.03 second hald ERA

Wealz
12-17-2004, 09:30 PM
Because Everett is our DH insurance if Frank misses the start of next season. Would you rather see Borchard as our DH come opening day?
I could have dealt with Gload for a month.

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 09:30 PM
O, and Kenny, stay the **** away from Pierzynski!
Seconded

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 09:31 PM
Does this mean that we can Booooo Clement when the BoSox visit Comisky?
You mean you're not going to give him a standing ovation?

mjmcend
12-17-2004, 09:33 PM
We need to face reality here: no self-respecting FA will want to sign with the White Sox.
So Dye and Hermanson are not self respecting. I am glad that you are such an expert in human physcology that you can tell what a human being feels about themselves by thier choice of employer. That is some gift there.

tanko
12-17-2004, 09:35 PM
lets go Millwood

Jurr
12-17-2004, 09:37 PM
Sounds like the typical White Sox underbid. What was Clement offered by the Sox? 3 years, 21 million? When the defending champs are offering 4 million more and the west coast payroll bustin' Angels offered 3 million more... Now we get to hear the "Hey, we tried" crap again. Why can't the Sox ever just "get the deal done"
Hey...I've been saying all day...we would not be well suited bidding that high for a pitcher of his caliber. Now, we can get some guy that can help us every day instead of once every five days. We were smart for not overbidding.

Ol' No. 2
12-17-2004, 09:41 PM
Hey all i owe everyone an apology. My source at the players union informed me that they instructed Clements agent not to sign the deal with the WS because it was loaded with deferred compensation. Its my understanding that Clement was offered 3yr 24mil by the WS, but most of the money was deferred. The union has begun a behind the scenes campaign with agents to deter players from signing contracts with deferred compensation. Apparently they feel that it will keep salaries down. Clement wanted to come here but the structure wasn't right. Once again my apologies.Is anybody buying this?

Jurr
12-17-2004, 09:44 PM
I believe him 100 percent. Yesterday, I was doing orthognathic surgery on Donald Fehr to fix his class III malocclusion. Anyway, he told me while under general anesthesia that he talked to this poster twice a day for the last 3 months, and that he knows everything about the Sox and what they're doing.

Jurr
12-17-2004, 09:45 PM
Go with Grili. Save the cash. A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not, but having the money to buy the missing link can put us over the top.

You gotta know when to fold 'em
Know when to hold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run
Man am I drunk
The most brilliant post of the day. Thank you, lord, for the voice of reason. Thank you.

thezeker
12-17-2004, 09:48 PM
We need to face reality here: no self-respecting FA will want to sign with the White Sox. Our only shot is to wait for mid-season and grab somebody who doesn't have a no-trade clause.

Unfortunately, by mid-season, we'll also be out of contention, so JR might have an excuse to not spend that extra $7 million.There are plenty of good reasons why a free agent would come to the White Sox:.

1. Chicago is the third biggest market in baseball. If a free agent plays his cards right he can clean up on endorsements.

2. Ozzie Guillen is one of the best young managers in baseball. Many a free agent would like to play for a manager with Ozzie's desire.

3. This team is poised to make some noise this season. Why do you think Dye took less money to play for the SOX?

I'm sad we did not get Clement too. But it is not the end of the world. 2005 can still be a very special year on the South side. There are still quite a few moves we can make!!!

California Sox
12-17-2004, 09:52 PM
I'd take Perez, Lowe, Millwood, and Milton in that order, but only if you put a gun to my head. All of these guys have up and down and up and down. They all represent a significant risk at 7+ mil per year for at least 3 years. I really believe that Bmac is the best option by, say, June 1. But I know that is going to be an unpopular opinion here.

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 09:55 PM
Look at my new sig...

Troupis
12-17-2004, 09:59 PM
Baseball

1 - Let's not forget that we also underbid Dye and only his antiCarlosBoozer morals saved us.

2 - I really don't understand how real Sox fans are willing to throw history and rivalries out the window to advocate AJ and Clement (before). I don't want a Twin (I know he's not coming from the Twins but he's tainted and he's a jerk at that) on our team, nor did I want that ex-staple of a Cub and those pathetic Wrigley-Goatee fans.

The Rumor Sox Interactive Stuff...
3 - I take what Tony says as an added source with message board credentials; message boards are the place for exactly things like this, if not for at least minor rumors we'd only have espn.com and a few other sources. I for one am glad people like him are trying to get more info for us. He's adding a little more to the discussion and our fanaticism. Good enough for me. Plus, the one thing these boards are not for are ripping on any Sox fans.


Oh, and he owes us all beers.:gulp:

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 10:00 PM
I'd take Perez, Lowe, Millwood, and Milton in that order, but only if you put a gun to my head. All of these guys have up and down and up and down. They all represent a significant risk at 7+ mil per year for at least 3 years. I really believe that Bmac is the best option by, say, June 1. But I know that is going to be an unpopular opinion here.
I'm with you on all but the Odalis part. Perez is easily as good or possibly better than Matt Clement and I think he could end up being the better contract signing. If it came down to Lowe/Millwood/Milton or McCarthy, I'd chose McCarthy. I'm not prepared to give any of those three a three year deal.

ChiSoxRowand
12-17-2004, 10:02 PM
I know I'm completely outnumbered here, but I really wouldn't mind Eric Milton.
same here

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 10:04 PM
Hey all i owe everyone an apology. My source at the players union informed me that they instructed Clements agent not to sign the deal with the WS because it was loaded with deferred compensation. Its my understanding that Clement was offered 3yr 24mil by the WS, but most of the money was deferred. The union has begun a behind the scenes campaign with agents to deter players from signing contracts with deferred compensation. Apparently they feel that it will keep salaries down. Clement wanted to come here but the structure wasn't right. Once again my apologies.:dtroll: You should leave and never show your face here again. :dtroll:

Fungo
12-17-2004, 10:13 PM
I don't know how much this guy would cost, but Aaron Sele has a 17-4 career record against the Twins. Those veterans at the back of the rotation always seem to battle.

c4birdiemaker
12-17-2004, 10:13 PM
i saw lowe pitch 3 times last yr @ the stadium including gm 7....he doesn't get flustered @ all. i don't know what happened to his era last yr but he shut up the crowd 3 times and i saw it with my own eyes. he throws a heavy ball, works fast,and would be a great fit @ the #3. the only down side is he is represented by that dung salesman with a mouth full of samples. now that clement's gone lowe knows he aint gettin 11m. he's gonna get 3 yrs @22-25mil. interested anyone? i think i am. if i had known penny was available he would have been my first choice after pedro

c4birdiemaker
12-17-2004, 10:16 PM
wll said...i used to live in scham before i moves to connecticutI've had it with this crap. There are three or four teams that get all the top-notch, high priced players because they spend out of control and let the other teams pick up the scraps. Nice league.

Screw JR and KW.
Screw Bud Selig.
Screw Scott Boras.
Screw George Steinbrenner.
Screw the players union.
Screw the greedy millionaires.
Screw the Cubs and their idiot fans.
Screw the media.
Screw MLB.

The only team getting my money in 2005 is the Schaumburg Flyers.

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 10:18 PM
i saw lowe pitch 3 times last yr @ the stadium including gm 7....he doesn't get flustered @ all. i don't know what happened to his era last yr but he shut up the crowd 3 times and i saw it with my own eyes. he throws a heavy ball, works fast,and would be a great fit @ the #3. the only down side is he is represented by that dung salesman with a mouth full of samples. now that clement's gone lowe knows he aint gettin 11m. he's gonna get 3 yrs @22-25mil. interested anyone? i think i am. if i had known penny was available he would have been my first choice after pedro
Penny wasnt available.

Lowe is definitely not worth that kind of money. He's really regressing and he's not the same pitcher he was in 2002. I don't doubt that when you saw him he did a really good job, but that doesnt mean that he's worth 25 million. Even Jamie Navarro probably had 3 good games. Well....I dont know about that one, but you get the point.

c4birdiemaker
12-17-2004, 10:22 PM
how can you pay 21mil to a guy who won 7 gms? I'm with you on all but the Odalis part. Perez is easily as good or possibly better than Matt Clement and I think he could end up being the better contract signing. If it came down to Lowe/Millwood/Milton or McCarthy, I'd chose McCarthy. I'm not prepared to give any of those three a three year deal.

c4birdiemaker
12-17-2004, 10:27 PM
penny's part of the unit trade. he was available...we just werent askinPenny wasnt available.

Lowe is definitely not worth that kind of money. He's really regressing and he's not the same pitcher he was in 2002. I don't doubt that when you saw him he did a really good job, but that doesnt mean that he's worth 25 million. Even Jamie Navarro probably had 3 good games. Well....I dont know about that one, but you get the point.

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 10:28 PM
how can you pay 21mil to a guy who won 7 gms?Wins/loss records are the worst statistic to judge a pitcher by. The Cubs offense went dead almost every time Clement pitched last year.

Jjav829
12-17-2004, 10:29 PM
penny's part of the unit trade. he was available...we just werent askin
Well he's available because they are getting a good pitcher in return. They were never actively shopping Penny around, though. If we wanted to part with Buehrle/Garcia I'm sure they would have listened. Otherwise, Penny wasn't going to be traded here.

c4birdiemaker
12-17-2004, 10:36 PM
maybe kw has big plans for bobby jenks...lol

OurBitchinMinny
12-17-2004, 10:38 PM
Since Clement reportedly agreed to sign with Boston, are the White Sox going to go after Odalis Perez? What if he signs elsewhere? Then who will our #5 starter be? Jason Grilli? Worst case scenario hopefully we resign Scott Scoenweis as our number #5.
if we dont get perez or anyone else, Id roll the dice on SS and see if he can regain the form he had for the first two months last year before the arm trouble. I dont understand all the hype on grilli. He really didnt show me a damn thing last year, other than he didnt suck as bad as munoz and diaz

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 10:40 PM
if we dont get perez or anyone else, Id roll the dice on SS and see if he can regain the form he had for the first two months last year before the arm trouble. I dont understand all the hype on grilli. He really didnt show me a damn thing last year, other than he didnt suck as bad as munoz and diazAgreed. SS was a decent #4 or #5 until his arm troubles started up.

OurBitchinMinny
12-17-2004, 10:40 PM
[QUOTE=thezeker]There are plenty of good reasons why a free agent would come to the White Sox:.


2. Ozzie Guillen is one of the best young managers in baseball. Many a free agent would like to play for a manager with Ozzie's desire. [QUOTE]


What exactly makes him one of baseballs best young managers? He was not that good of a manager last year. Ill give you he is young, but he didnt show me a lot last year. Im not gonna give up on him and two of his top hitters missed most of the second half, but the team still underachieved just like with JM

mandmandm
12-17-2004, 10:42 PM
Just for my benefit has there been a legitamate 5th starter in the Kenny Williams GM era?

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 10:44 PM
Just for my benefit has there been a legitamate 5th starter in the Kenny Williams GM era?Nope.

MRKARNO
12-17-2004, 10:46 PM
Just for my benefit has there been a legitamate 5th starter in the Kenny Williams GM era?
We had five legit starters in 2002, but they were awful besides Buerhle and Garland.

nodiggity59
12-17-2004, 10:46 PM
There was a decent 5th starter on the Sox. Schoenweiss last year for a few weeks after we acquired Freddy...for about 2 weeks we had a solid 5.

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 10:50 PM
There was a decent 5th starter on the Sox. Schoenweiss last year for a few weeks after we acquired Freddy...for about 2 weeks we had a solid 5.Yeah, but we haven't had a decent 5th starter from the start of a season or for an entire season for that matter.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2004, 10:52 PM
With the talk of Grilli and a cast of thousands in the 5th starter spot, this stat might be on interest. It comes from Bob Foltman's story in the Tribune tonight (Friday) and it's an eye popper.

"The pitchers the Sox used in the fifth spot of the rotation gave up 55 home runs. Jason Grilli, who may go into spring training with the fifth spot to lose if the Sox don't sign free agent Matt Clement, gave up 11 home runs in only 45 innings."
Lip

Lip Man 1
12-17-2004, 11:01 PM
Jabroni says: "Yeah, but we haven't had a decent 5th starter from the start of a season or for an entire season for that matter."
Define your terms please. The Sox had five very good starters in 1994. They had five good starters in 1990 as well as in 1983.

Lip

wdelaney72
12-17-2004, 11:09 PM
You can limit this to Screw JR and KW.

I was all set to setup a group for opening day and I was planning on doubling the number of games I was going to attend this season.

Back to reality. I can't even begin to explain how angry I am with the White Sox organization.

My baseball buzz for 2005 has been completely squashed.

I've had it with this crap. There are three or four teams that get all the top-notch, high priced players because they spend out of control and let the other teams pick up the scraps. Nice league.

Screw JR and KW.
Screw Bud Selig.
Screw Scott Boras.
Screw George Steinbrenner.
Screw the players union.
Screw the greedy millionaires.
Screw the Cubs and their idiot fans.
Screw the media.
Screw MLB.

The only team getting my money in 2005 is the Schaumburg Flyers.

Mickster
12-17-2004, 11:12 PM
Go with Grili. Save the cash. A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not, but having the money to buy the missing link can put us over the top.
The fifth starter will have started 12-14 times at the break. Could you imagine the Sox with a 5th starter that wins even 50% of the time? Let's put it this way, we'd be the 4-time central division champs in pursuit of our 5th straignt division title.

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 11:15 PM
Go with Grili. Save the cash. A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not, but having the money to buy the missing link can put us over the top.The fifth starter will have started 12-14 times at the break. Could you imagine the Sox with a 5th starter that wins even 50% of the time? Let's put it this way, we'd be the 4-time central division champs in pursuit of our 5th straignt division title.Agreed. This is unacceptable. How long have we seen what happens when we don't have 5 good starting pitchers? 4 consecutive years now?

Lip Man 1
12-17-2004, 11:17 PM
East Chicago Sox Fan says: "A fifth starter won't determine if we're in contention in July or not."

In 2003 the Sox lost the division by four games. The record of the 5th starters that year was dismal. Games lost by them in May count just as much as games lost in August. There are no do overs because it's after the All Star Break.

Plus there is no guarantee the Sox can get anyone come July is there? If the organization thought the price of pitching is high in December they should see what teams will be paying in July. It may be out of their price range come then. Also remember to get pitching in July you have to TRADE. No free agents available them.

It makes no sense to weaken the club via July trade when you can add talent now without having to trade players.

Lip

StockdaleForVeep
12-17-2004, 11:23 PM
New York gobbles up players like the gravitational force of a collapsed sun and everyone cries and whines

Boston does this and everyone praises and such because they've had a rough century

Is manny ramirez making more money now than our entire team minus pitching staff now? I know he was makin more than our infield last year.

thezeker
12-18-2004, 12:21 AM
[QUOTE=thezeker]There are plenty of good reasons why a free agent would come to the White Sox:.


2. Ozzie Guillen is one of the best young managers in baseball. Many a free agent would like to play for a manager with Ozzie's desire. [QUOTE]


What exactly makes him one of baseballs best young managers? He was not that good of a manager last year. Ill give you he is young, but he didnt show me a lot last year. Im not gonna give up on him and two of his top hitters missed most of the second half, but the team still underachieved just like with JMMainly because Ozzie learns from his mistakes.

It only took him less than a year to see that the team was fatally flawed in its makeup and its chemistry. He made management make some changes!

It looks like he's admitting he's let his starters pitch too long into games. So he is putting together a great relief staff.

He's got pride. Pride in himself and pride at being a part of the White Sox organization. It's been a long time since we had a manager around here that feels that way.

Sure he made a lot of mistakes lasr year. But the measure of a man is if he learns from his mistakes.

That's what makes him one of baseball's best young managers and I hope we don't let him get away because he will lead a team to a championship. I just hope it's the White Sox.

Jabroni
12-18-2004, 12:26 AM
Whatever the case may be, if we offered Clement $21 million for 3 years we have to be able to sign a good starting pitcher right? Throw the money at the next guy, Odalis Perez.

Jabroni
12-18-2004, 12:33 AM
New York gobbles up players like the gravitational force of a collapsed sun and everyone cries and whines

Boston does this and everyone praises and such because they've had a rough century

Is manny ramirez making more money now than our entire team minus pitching staff now? I know he was makin more than our infield last year.It's the only MLB contract that is almost as putrid as A-Rod's...

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8216/mannyramirez1rt.jpg

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/3492/alexrodriguez9cx.jpg

But then again, at least A-Rod can play 3B and SS. Manny Ramirez is a DH that the Red Sox are forced to throw in LF. He is without a doubt the worst outfielder in baseball. Beltran and Borass want a Manny-type contract. We shall see if there's actually a team out there that's stupid enough to offer it.

Norberto7
12-18-2004, 12:36 AM
Just curious, if Grilli was to be the fifth starter, what is the best we could realistically hope for? Is .500 out of the question? I think there were some signs he could be servicable, I am wondering what some more informed opinions are.

Jabroni
12-18-2004, 12:41 AM
Just curious, if Grilli was to be the fifth starter, what is the best we could realistically hope for? Is .500 out of the question? I think there were some signs he could be servicable, I am wondering what some more informed opinions are.I still don't understand the hype surrounding Grilli. How is a 7.40 ERA in 8 starts "showing signs"? Grilli has had more starts (14 career starts) than Jon Rauch and we made up our minds about Rauch (10 career starts) alot sooner. Schoeneweis was at least a little better than Grilli's putridness with a 5.59 ERA. If worse comes to worst, I would rather see Schoeneweis as our 5th starter over Grilli.

BRDSR
12-18-2004, 12:43 AM
[QUOTE=thezeker]Mainly because Ozzie learns from his mistakes.

It only took him less than a year to see that the team was fatally flawed in its makeup and its chemistry. He made management make some changes!
QUOTE]

Unfortunately, it took him a year and maybe more to learn which arm to point to when he's going to the bullpen. Really, though, I like Ozzie. I definitely don't think that last year's struggles were in any way attributable to Ozzie and his being young.

Tragg
12-18-2004, 12:43 AM
Sounds like the typical White Sox underbid. What was Clement offered by the Sox? 3 years, 21 million? When the defending champs are offering 4 million more and the west coast payroll bustin' Angels offered 3 million more... Now we get to hear the "Hey, we tried" crap again. Why can't the Sox ever just "get the deal done"

JR and KW should read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446353256/ref=pd_sim_b_3/002-2344511-4228851?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
I agree with you; That's BS; we take the worst end of the Milwaukee trade in huge payroll slash, but promised an honest effort to get a pitcher, then underbid for our pitcher? BS again

Everyone was talking 10 Mill; as it turned out, he signed for a tad over $8, which is reasonable in this market.

Will the Sox step up to the plate for Perez, or will we get some nickle and dime signing?

Jabroni
12-18-2004, 12:49 AM
I agree with you; That's BS; we take the worst end of the Milwaukee trade in huge payroll slash, but promised an honest effort to get a pitcher, then underbid for our pitcher? BS again

Everyone was talking 10 Mill; as it turned out, he signed for a tad over $8, which is reasonable in this market.

Will the Sox step up to the plate for Perez, or will we get some nickle and dime signing?The bitching should commence if we don't sign Odalis Perez. Perez is the last really good starting pitcher that would surely be the #3 guy in our rotation.

Tragg
12-18-2004, 12:51 AM
The bitching should commence if we don't sign Odalis Perez. Perez is the last really good starting pitcher that would surely be the #3 guy in our rotation.
Perez would be an acceptable alternative - and the last acceptable alternative. Frankly, I'm shocked Clement came so "cheap" (relatively speaking).

I'll try to defer further bitching until such time, if there is a time.

Jabroni
12-18-2004, 12:53 AM
Perez would be an acceptable alternative - and the last acceptable alternative. Frankly, I'm shocked Clement came so "cheap" (relatively speaking).

I'll try to defer further bitching until such time, if there is a time.If JR and KW don't throw that $21+ million that they offered Clement at Odalis Perez then we truly can start the bitching.

hi8is
12-18-2004, 12:59 AM
i have no worry that they will decline to offer perez that 3/21 contract
i do have a huge concern that will not be enough, and they will not up the offer.

Tragg
12-18-2004, 01:03 AM
i have no worry that they will decline to offer perez that 3/21 contract
i do have a huge concern that will not be enough, and they will not up the offer.It likely won't be enough, and I simply can't believe we lowballed clement like that. I had convinced myself that we had made a worthy trade with Milwaukee to try to better the team - oh, well, so much for self delusion

bestkosher
12-18-2004, 01:04 AM
is wilson alvarez still available???????????

Jabroni
12-18-2004, 01:11 AM
is wilson alvarez still available???????????Yes, Wilson Alvarez is a free agent.

MIgrenade
12-18-2004, 01:35 AM
Firtst, Clement is going to suck in Boston because he's being set up as the second starter. If the reports are right and Schilling is out on opening day, Clement will be number one. he cannot be a number one. The Red Sox are screwed. Second, if the White Sox get Perez as the number 3 I don't see the problem especially if we pay less. Of course that means we have to actually get him.
Correct me if I am wrong on Clements status as a number 2 and possible temporary number 1.

California Sox
12-18-2004, 01:42 AM
Just for my benefit has there been a legitamate 5th starter in the Kenny Williams GM era?
Kip Wells.

Jabroni
12-18-2004, 01:49 AM
Firtst, Clement is going to suck in Boston because he's being set up as the second starter. If the reports are right and Schilling is out on opening day, Clement will be number one. he cannot be a number one. The Red Sox are screwed. Second, if the White Sox get Perez as the number 3 I don't see the problem especially if we pay less. Of course that means we have to actually get him.
Correct me if I am wrong on Clements status as a number 2 and possible temporary number 1.No, you are correct. Schilling probably won't be ready for opening day and either Clement or David Wells will be their opening day starter.

MRKARNO
12-18-2004, 08:44 AM
Look at my new sig...
Now we're surely not going to get Odalis...

MRKARNO
12-18-2004, 08:46 AM
is wilson alvarez still available???????????
I think he just resigned with LA

OG4LIFE
12-18-2004, 08:57 AM
been wanting one of these

:tomatoaward

wdelaney72
12-18-2004, 01:45 PM
Firtst, Clement is going to suck in Boston because he's being set up as the second starter. If the reports are right and Schilling is out on opening day, Clement will be number one. he cannot be a number one. The Red Sox are screwed. Second, if the White Sox get Perez as the number 3 I don't see the problem especially if we pay less. Of course that means we have to actually get him.
Correct me if I am wrong on Clements status as a number 2 and possible temporary number 1.
If this is what you need to tell yourself to sleep at nght, go right ahead. The fact is, Matt Clement was the best FA pitcher available. We desperately need another SP and the we didn't sign him. End of story.

I have absolutely ZERO confidence in signing Perez. Our GM didn't sign Clement, Lieber, Pavano, or Jaret Wright. Hudson and RJ were dealt and we were not there. I agree with the other posters, Perez is the last quality SP available. Any of the other guys fall into...
:whocares