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JUribe1989
12-16-2004, 03:49 PM
I was just listening to ESPN 1000 and they reported on one of their newsbreaks that the Sox have interest in him tho. All they said was that.http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:OmY7NznIeb0J:i.cnn.net/si/2004/baseball/mlb/02/07/bc.bbn.giants.pierzynski.ap/t1_pierzynski_getty.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.cnn.net/si/2004/baseball/mlb/02/07/bc.bbn.giants.pierzynski.ap/t1_pierzynski_getty.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnnsi.com/2004/baseball/mlb/02/07/bc.bbn.giants.pierzynski.ap/&h=350&w=250&sz=18&tbnid=OmY7NznIeb0J:&tbnh=114&tbnw=82&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPierzynski%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D)

Palehose13
12-16-2004, 03:52 PM
I heard the tail end of it...did I hear correctly that they want to talk to him about his clubhouse behavior?

Flight #24
12-16-2004, 03:53 PM
Not necessarily a great sign because if they have $$$ for AJ, that likely means they didn't get Clement/Perez (I'm assuming that AJ gets 3-4 and Odalis around 8).

Or looking the other way, it's a GREAT sign because it means that they have enough payroll to sign AJ AND a pitcher!

JUribe1989
12-16-2004, 03:53 PM
That would make sense. he is a veteran catcher, but he does need help with his clubhouse behavior.

Jabroni
12-16-2004, 03:54 PM
I heard the tail end of it...did I hear correctly that they want to talk to him about his clubhouse behavior?Yep.

sullythered
12-16-2004, 03:56 PM
Blech. All this guy is is a bat. He is horrible with pitchers, sub-par defensively, and has the same arm strength as my 15 year old sister. Plus all indications are that he is a complete tool.

soxfan43
12-16-2004, 03:57 PM
maybe its just me but i'd rather see how Davis/Burke develop rather than see our #5 lose another 15 games. I dont see how the sox can signa catcher and a decent #5 unless they sign a deuche like el puque

Jabroni
12-16-2004, 03:58 PM
maybe its just me but i'd rather see how Davis/Burke develop rather than see our #5 lose another 15 games. I dont see how the sox can signa catcher and a decent #5 unless they sign a deuche like el puqueAgreed. I only like signing Pierzynski if they also sign another starting pitcher. If it's either Pierzynski or a starting pitcher like Clement or Odalis Perez, I would rather not have A.J.

MeanFish
12-16-2004, 03:59 PM
What's wrong with El Duque? Honestly?

Palehose13
12-16-2004, 04:02 PM
Seems that they will also discuss with him his lack of preparation for games. Interesting. I don't think the current coaching staff puts up with crap, and we know what KW does to tables when their is crap in the clubhouse. Maybe AJ just needs a little structure. I wouldn't hate if he gets signed, but I wouldn't be running down the streets of Milwaukee screaming because of happiness.

soxfan43
12-16-2004, 04:02 PM
What's wrong with El Duque? Honestly?

he's probably closer to 50 than 40. and he has the same issues as contreras.

infohawk
12-16-2004, 04:05 PM
If the Sox are comfortable with his clubhouse demeanor, this could be a very good signing. A.J. hits for a higher average than what we currently have at the catcher position, he adds another much-needed left-handed bat to the everyday line-up (for a total of three) and I have heard that he calls a good game behind the plate. He is the type of scrappy player we need. Catcher, shortstop and third base were absolute sinkholes for the Sox offense last year. As far as I am concerned, both A.J. and Uribe as the everyday shortstop improve us substantially compared to the production we got out of their positions last year. Valentin hit a lot homers, but he was a terrible rally killer with his strike outs and horrific .OBP. If Crede rebounds we could end up having a very balanced offense. The key is making sure the other players would accept A.J. before we acquire him.

Brian26
12-16-2004, 04:07 PM
That would make sense. he is a veteran catcher, but he does need help with his clubhouse behavior.

You mean sitting around playing cards instead of going over the hitters with the starting pitcher isn't good clubhouse behavior?

Screw him. Keep him off our team.

Ol' No. 2
12-16-2004, 04:07 PM
he's probably closer to 50 than 40. and he has the same issues as contreras.He's not very durable, but he was 8-2 with a 3.30 ERA last year. I don't care if he's closer to 80. For a 5th starter that can be skipped once in a while, his lack of durability won't show. And for the amount of money it would take, it's a small gamble. I'd rather have Perez or Clement, but if they strike out on those two, I'd rather take a chance on Hernandez and have the option of replacing him mid-season than make a long-term committment to Lowe or Milton and be stuck with them.

Brian26
12-16-2004, 04:08 PM
I don't think the current coaching staff puts up with crap, and we know what KW does to tables when their is crap in the clubhouse.

A story just came out about KW having a chat with Lee about his attitude and hustle. I have no idea why we would want this bum on our team.

MeanFish
12-16-2004, 04:09 PM
I agree in full.

Ol' No. 2
12-16-2004, 04:10 PM
A story just came out about KW having a chat with Lee about his attitude and hustle. I have no idea why we would want this bum on our team.Maybe Kenny just wants the satisfaction of saying "No, thanks" to his face. I can't think of any other reason.

Rush20
12-16-2004, 04:11 PM
I would think after the likes of Royce Clayton, Albert Belle, Jaime Navarro and now apparently Carlos Lee, the SOX brass would shy away from these "clubhouse cancer" type players.

A friend of mine inside the organization told me last year that players barely hung out together on road trips and that there was a definite lack of team chemistry that became more apparent later in the season.

I think KW is taking this into consideration with his moves based on who he now views as the "Core" of the team. We obviously didn't win anything beyond a first round exit under the Thomas-Lee-Konerko-Durham-Valentin-Ordonez line-up era.

fquaye149
12-16-2004, 04:56 PM
but isn't he a hoagie....

wait...i mean a grinder?

MeanFish
12-16-2004, 05:00 PM
This team could use a hoagie...and some navy beans to boot.

hold2dibber
12-16-2004, 05:01 PM
I'd love to have A.J. The Sox simply don't have enough guys with that killer instinct like he has. And while he apparently wasn't liked by his teammates in San Fran, IIRC he was very tight with his teammates in Minnesota, so I don't think you can assume he's a jerk, just that he didn't fit in in S.F. for some reason. And regardless of what you think of him personally, if you watch him play you know he brings it all between the lines and truly cares about winning and losing. The Sox need more of that.

My only concern is his defense - I don't claim to know if he's adequate defensively, but I'd be interested in anyone who does have an informed opinion on the issue. Also, does anyone know where you can get stats that show a pitching staff's performance when throwing to a particular catcher? That would be interesting to look at, too.

Foulke29
12-16-2004, 05:04 PM
I'd love to have A.J. The Sox simply don't have enough guys with that killer instinct like he has. And while he apparently wasn't liked by his teammates in San Fran, IIRC he was very tight with his teammates in Minnesota, so I don't think you can assume he's a jerk, just that he didn't fit in in S.F. for some reason. And regardless of what you think of him personally, if you watch him play you know he brings it all between the lines and truly cares about winning and losing. The Sox need more of that.

My only concern is his defense - I don't claim to know if he's adequate defensively, but I'd be interested in anyone who does have an informed opinion on the issue. Also, does anyone know where you can get stats that show a pitching staff's performance when throwing to a particular catcher? That would be interesting to look at, too.
See - I tend to agree with this. Concern for his defense, but if I were A.J. and in San Fran, I'd have a bad attitude playing with Barry "they let me do anything I want to do and I don't care what anyone thinks" Bonds. I'd be playing cards too if they let one guy get away with murder and expected me to walk a straight line.

That's not to mention that A.J. came from a team of scrappers with no superstar to a team with the guy the cameras were on more than any player in 2004. I think the attitude is all relative - to be honest.

Jabroni
12-16-2004, 05:09 PM
The positives to signing A.J. would be that his offensive numbers will probably go back up to his Minnesota years if he comes back to the A.L Central. He is familiar with A.L. pitching and that was probably one of the reasons for his struggles. Also, the Giants used Torrealba at catcher alot instead of A.J. A.J. is used to catching full-time.

Tragg
12-16-2004, 05:41 PM
He's not very durable, but he was 8-2 with a 3.30 ERA last year. I don't care if he's closer to 80. For a 5th starter that can be skipped once in a while, his lack of durability won't show. And for the amount of money it would take, it's a small gamble. I'd rather have Perez or Clement, but if they strike out on those two, I'd rather take a chance on Hernandez and have the option of replacing him mid-season than make a long-term committment to Lowe or Milton and be stuck with them.
Of course, we have a 5th starter; we need a 3 starter

We'll get so-so results with him; It's sort of like kicking off out of bounds and giving it to them on the 35 with this guy. I know it sounds goofy considering the angst we had last year at 5th starter, but since so-so won't cut it for this ball-club, I'd just as soon as see if a youngster can come in and make this rotation.

MeanFish
12-16-2004, 06:23 PM
With Orlando Hernandez, it's not the quality of the innings, it's how many of them.

You can rest assured that the innings he gives you will be quality innings. With a deep bullpen, he's more than a serviceable stopgap. We've got that bullpen. He'd have to be the #5 due to durability issues, but the games he'd give you would be good ones.

I guess what I'm saying is, would it really kill the team to have to use an extra relief pitcher every ten days or so?

LASOXFAN
12-16-2004, 06:26 PM
I would think after the likes of Royce Clayton, Albert Belle, Jaime Navarro and now apparently Carlos Lee, the SOX brass would shy away from these "clubhouse cancer" type players.

A friend of mine inside the organization told me last year that players barely hung out together on road trips and that there was a definite lack of team chemistry that became more apparent later in the season.

I think KW is taking this into consideration with his moves based on who he now views as the "Core" of the team. We obviously didn't win anything beyond a first round exit under the Thomas-Lee-Konerko-Durham-Valentin-Ordonez line-up era.
even members of the Twins couldn't stand the guy. But guess what? They went to the playoffs with this guy, to the ALCS in fact. I so don't care about team chemistry, not since I read a long article on the Big Red Machine of the 70s. Those guys couldn't stand each other. But they did want to win - badly. Look at what they accomplished. I don't care if they hold hands on the team bus as long as they're all on the same page when they get to the park.

chisoxmike
12-16-2004, 06:32 PM
even members of the Twins couldn't stand the guy. But guess what? They went to the playoffs with this guy, to the ALCS in fact. I so don't care about team chemistry, not since I read a long article on the Big Red Machine of the 70s. Those guys couldn't stand each other. But they did want to win - badly. Look at what they accomplished. I don't care if they hold hands on the team bus as long as they're all on the same page when they get to the park.
Yeah, but those teams had 5 pitchers. We don't.

A.T. Money
12-16-2004, 07:04 PM
People keep saying he is bad with pitchers, yet all he did was screw our hitters up when we played the Twins.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-16-2004, 07:10 PM
Clubhouse cancer.

MeanFish
12-16-2004, 07:11 PM
I dunno, based on the things I'm hearing, I'd be willing to at least listen to the guy if I was KW.

California Sox
12-16-2004, 07:16 PM
It's intriguing because A.J. could hit seventh letting Crede hit eighth and Willie ninth, balancing out the lineup:

Podsednik
Crash
Frank (please god let him be healthy)
PK
Dye
Uribe
A.J.
Crede
Willie

That's still 5 RH hitters in a row but it beats the alternative and when Uribe gets on base he's swift enough for A.J. to hit and run with his patented fister into RF.

Of course, there's no denying the guy's a jag, absolutely the most hated guy in either league, but... Hey, you're always more popular with the other team when you lose.

MeanFish
12-16-2004, 07:32 PM
He's no match for Sheff or Bonds. In Minnesota, he was a good teammate. It's not a waste of time to hear what he has to say.

Ol' No. 2
12-16-2004, 07:39 PM
With Orlando Hernandez, it's not the quality of the innings, it's how many of them.

You can rest assured that the innings he gives you will be quality innings. With a deep bullpen, he's more than a serviceable stopgap. We've got that bullpen. He'd have to be the #5 due to durability issues, but the games he'd give you would be good ones.

I guess what I'm saying is, would it really kill the team to have to use an extra relief pitcher every ten days or so?That's the way I see it, too. And as a 5th starter, the ability to skip him once in a while may allow him to go all season instead of breaking down for a month. He's not the best option, but he's better than Lowe or Milton. And if he doesn't work out, they're not stuck with him for 3 years.

Daver
12-16-2004, 07:50 PM
AJ gives you a fair bat in return for little presence defensively. He does not call games well, he is below average at blocking balls in the dirt, has a tendency to lose foul pop ups, and has little to no arm. On a team with a strong defensive infield he is worth a look at, for a team with below average defense and a pitching staff that does a poor job of holding baserunners, he would be a bad option.

fquaye149
12-16-2004, 08:07 PM
^^^ how would you rate our defense daver?

i think that with crede, uribe and harris in our infield, and the outfield it looks like we'd be starting it seems like we at least have an average to slightly above-average defense.

how do the stats/scouting stack up against that judgment?

flo-B-flo
12-16-2004, 10:19 PM
AJ gives you a fair bat in return for little presence defensively. He does not call games well, he is below average at blocking balls in the dirt, has a tendency to lose foul pop ups, and has little to no arm. On a team with a strong defensive infield he is worth a look at, for a team with below average defense and a pitching staff that does a poor job of holding baserunners, he would be a bad option. And this is what almost everyone says about Perwsxki. I say get him. He killed us with the twinkers. Maybe he'd like some payback.:rolleyes:

MRKARNO
12-16-2004, 10:22 PM
AJ gives you a fair bat in return for little presence defensively. He does not call games well, he is below average at blocking balls in the dirt, has a tendency to lose foul pop ups, and has little to no arm. On a team with a strong defensive infield he is worth a look at, for a team with below average defense and a pitching staff that does a poor job of holding baserunners, he would be a bad option.
I'm not even sure I agree on the bat part. He can't draw walks at all and doesnt have hardly any power. A lot of players on the team still hold a grudge against him. Jamie Burke in his short stint appears to be above-average defensively and might be able to replicate Pierzynski's offense at a bit lower of a level. It's not worth the money or the potential for harm to the team's morale. Let the Cardinals overpay for him.

GiveMeSox
12-16-2004, 10:23 PM
AJ gives you a fair bat in return for little presence defensively. He does not call games well, he is below average at blocking balls in the dirt, has a tendency to lose foul pop ups, and has little to no arm. On a team with a strong defensive infield he is worth a look at, for a team with below average defense and a pitching staff that does a poor job of holding baserunners, he would be a bad option.
And letting two backups who would be lucky to hit their weights combined who have never shown to be clutch at all would better than a guy with a career .289 avg. You're nuts man.

Daver
12-16-2004, 10:29 PM
And letting two backups who would be lucky to hit their weights combined who have never shown to be clutch at all would better than a guy with a career .289 avg. You're nuts man.
Oh really?

When you are relying on batting from your catcher in the A.L., your team has huge problems to begin with.

But please, expand on why AJ and his lousy defense will help the Sox win games because he can hit .289.

Tragg
12-16-2004, 10:37 PM
And letting two backups who would be lucky to hit their weights combined who have never shown to be clutch at all would better than a guy with a career .289 avg. You're nuts man.

Because he isn't a particularly good hitter either - he has zero plate discipline, exacerbating our offensive weaknesses; and we should all agree he's a poor defender. Agreed, that our catchers are less than stellar; so you add another less than stellar to the pot? Naah

And SF flat out cut this guy; that should say something as well.

OurBitchinMinny
12-16-2004, 10:43 PM
AJ was actually not that well liked when he was on the twins. He was better liked than on the giants, but a lot of the twinkies didnt like him. I cant see it working out with the white sox because im sure he is hated by a lot of the guys. But he is better than davis and burke probably

Tragg
12-16-2004, 10:47 PM
While on the subject of catchers, Daver, you're the resident expert on defense, how do you rate DAvis'?
I would ask about Burke's but I seem to recall you being less than impressed with it.

Don't we need another infielder too, or are we going with valdez?

SouthSide_HitMen
12-16-2004, 10:57 PM
What's wrong with El Duque? Honestly?
We already have a higher priced version - Contreras.

Daver
12-16-2004, 11:00 PM
While on the subject of catchers, Daver, you're the resident expert on defense, how do you rate DAvis'?
I would ask about Burke's but I seem to recall you being less than impressed with it.

Don't we need another infielder too, or are we going with valdez?
Ben Davis is a decent catcher, his ability to block balls in the dirt is above average, his game calling skills are mediocre, but are offset a bit with the fact that he speaks spanish, he moves well for a big guy, and can chase down a pop fly, and he has a decent arm that is hampered with a poor release, with a good coach he could probably improve behind the plate. I don't know that he will ever be an offensive threat though, he suffers from the Karkovice Syndrome, he can't hit a breaking ball.

Valdez won't be a bad utility infielder, he will fill a Craig Grebeck type role, and he is young enough to still develop, and a slap hitter with a little speed is not bad coming off the bench.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-16-2004, 11:01 PM
AJ gives you a fair bat in return for little presence defensively. He does not call games well, he is below average at blocking balls in the dirt, has a tendency to lose foul pop ups, and has little to no arm.
In other words, an upgrade at the position over the current #2s.

Jabroni
12-16-2004, 11:03 PM
Ben Davis is a decent catcher, his ability to block balls in the dirt is above average, his game calling skills are mediocre, but are offset a bit with the fact that he speaks spanish, he moves well for a big guy, and can chase down a pop fly, and he has a decent arm that is hampered with a poor release, with a good coach he could probably improve behind the plate. I don't know that he will ever be an offensive threat though, he suffers from the Karkovice Syndrome, he can't hit a breaking ball.

Valdez won't be a bad utility infielder, he will fill a Craig Grebeck type role, and he is young enough to still develop, and a slap hitter with a little speed is not bad coming off the bench.Would you have any problem with Davis catching for our Spanish-speaking pitchers -- Garcia and Contreras, while Pierzynski catches for our English-speaking pitchers -- Buehrle, Garland, and Clement?

Tragg
12-16-2004, 11:06 PM
Ben Davis is a decent catcher, his ability to block balls in the dirt is above average, his game calling skills are mediocre, but are offset a bit with the fact that he speaks spanish, he moves well for a big guy, and can chase down a pop fly, and he has a decent arm that is hampered with a poor release, with a good coach he could probably improve behind the plate. I don't know that he will ever be an offensive threat though, he suffers from the Karkovice Syndrome, he can't hit a breaking ball.

Valdez won't be a bad utility infielder, he will fill a Craig Grebeck type role, and he is young enough to still develop, and a slap hitter with a little speed is not bad coming off the bench.
Thanks

Then we're done, save a starting pitcher of some sort. Maybe a lefty bat of some sort instead of what's his name that everyone except me seems to like.

Does Valdez swing a bat that is longer than his body is tall, like Grebeck did? :rolleyes:

A. Cavatica
12-16-2004, 11:11 PM
Ben Davis...moves well for a big guy, and can chase down a pop fly
Davis takes bad routes to balls.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-16-2004, 11:43 PM
This was posted at RotoWorld - The Giants placed A.J. Pierzynski (C) SF (http://www.rototimes.com/index.php?sport=bsball&type=profile&name=3327) on waivers Tuesday, according to the AP. General manager Brian Sabean said the team wouldn't offer Pierzynski a contract by the December 20th deadline, which would make him a free agent.


I assume he cannot become a member of the White Sox until next week at the earliest based on the above.

Shingotime!!
12-17-2004, 12:38 AM
Would you have any problem with Davis catching for our Spanish-speaking pitchers -- Garcia and Contreras, while Pierzynski catches for our English-speaking pitchers -- Buehrle, Garland, and Clement? I would like to see Burke catch Buehrle, they work well together.

fuzzy_patters
12-17-2004, 11:21 AM
This thread has morphed into a thread about 2 different players, but here was what I think about each of them.

A.J. Pierzynski has a good, tough attitude, and he hits for good batting averages. However, that is offset by the fact that he cannot throw out baserunners, and he rarely ever walks. Since catcher is primarily a defensive position unless you can hit like Mike Piazza, I think we should pass on Pierzynski.

As for El Duque, he has some durability issues, but he might be worth a flyer if Ozzie can keep his innings down. In his six years in the majors he has had the following ERA+ (Era adjusted for ballpark with 100 being average): 143, 109, 112, 92, 120, and 136 last year. Last year's 136 number would have made him the best pitcher on our team. From a less objective viewpoint, he has great breaking stuff, and he makes hitters look stupid when he is on. The only question is if he can remain healty, and that is no guarantee. Overall, I think we should take a flyer on him if the price is right.

Brian26
12-17-2004, 11:26 AM
I would like to see Burke catch Buehrle, they work well together.

Plus Buehrle drove Burke to the hospital after the cheap shot (tm) last year, so they are definitely buds.

Palehose13
12-17-2004, 08:30 PM
Update tonight on either WSCR or WMVP (I forgot, I was swtiching between the two) said that there should be a decision by Monday about AJ & the Sox.

fquaye149
12-17-2004, 08:35 PM
Update tonight on either WSCR or WMVP (I forgot, I was swtiching between the two) said that there should be a decision by Monday about AJ & the Sox.
PLEASE NO!

Jabroni
12-17-2004, 10:31 PM
It's funny that everyone has been complaining about our offensive output from our catchers since Olivo was traded and now no one wants Pierzynski who can actually hit. I guess you guys do make good points as to why he would not be a great signing -- his weak defense and clubhouse problems. I guess I'm torn on the decision. I sure wouldn't mind Pierzynski's offense at the bottom of the order though.

gosox41
12-18-2004, 09:34 AM
It's funny that everyone has been complaining about our offensive output from our catchers since Olivo was traded and now no one wants Pierzynski who can actually hit. I guess you guys do make good points as to why he would not be a great signing -- his weak defense and clubhouse problems. I guess I'm torn on the decision. I sure wouldn't mind Pierzynski's offense at the bottom of the order though.
I'd take Pierzynski at the right price just for the reason that if he starts to annoy everyone the Sox will release him without thinking twice.

The question is (assuming he keeps his mouth shut in the clubhouse): Is AJ's hitting hitting and fielding ability make him mor valuable to the team then Ben Davis' hitting and fielding ability?


I think so. I think his numbers will improve if he comes back to the AL. I also think anyone's numbers will improve by playng at the Cell. We kind of saw what Ben Davis can do.


Bob

Tragg
12-18-2004, 09:39 AM
It's funny that everyone has been complaining about our offensive output from our catchers since Olivo was traded and now no one wants Pierzynski who can actually hit. I guess you guys do make good points as to why he would not be a great signing -- his weak defense and clubhouse problems. I guess I'm torn on the decision. I sure wouldn't mind Pierzynski's offense at the bottom of the order though.One problem in your analysis - Peirzynski is not a good hitter; he has no power, and has a mediocre OBP; he is an average hitter.

CPditka
12-18-2004, 10:02 AM
Avg Hitter? from a catcher Ill take that.
Last I checked Avg is better than Sub-Avg aka Davis/Burke.

He looks pretty attractive for a team that might not land the mysterious 5th starter. Our best option might be AJ and a Price is Right 5th.

That is fine w/ me because as our rotation has been in the past few years, Squirly B, and Garcia like to pitch on X days rest as opposed to 4 starts rest. This overlap will minimize our 5th starter, making a pitcher like El Duque/Lozia or someone similar to them a good idea.


As a total side note, has anyone signed Placido Palanco yet???

TheBull19
12-18-2004, 10:16 AM
Would you have any problem with Davis catching for our Spanish-speaking pitchers -- Garcia and Contreras, while Pierzynski catches for our English-speaking pitchers -- Buehrle, Garland, and Clement?
My guess is that if the sox do sign pierzynski, at least in the next 2 days, they would dump davis and go with pierzynski/burke - since the sox don't have davis under contract yet, and have until monday to offer him arbitration, I believe, they could just non-tender him. They'd save up to about a mil that way, and we already know Davis can't hit a lick, why not give Burke the chance.

Not that I'm advocating signing Pierz. for reasons already stated on this thread/

MRKARNO
12-18-2004, 11:23 AM
One problem in your analysis - Peirzynski is not a good hitter; he has no power, and has a mediocre OBP; he is an average hitter.
Exactly. The guy really has one, and only one asset, which is a high batting average, but he doesnt have any power, speed or the ability to draw walks at all. His defense sucks, he made enemies in San Francisco and he already has them in Chicago.

SoxxoS
12-18-2004, 02:04 PM
On the subject of "clubhouse cancer" the Twins were able to handle it and win how many division championships over the past 5 years? Quite a few last I checked.

Plus, everyone loves playing for Ozzie.