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View Full Version : Downey article in Cubune. (Not a bad one)


chisoxmike
12-16-2004, 12:04 PM
Interesting read, look at what we've traded away and who we didn't sign since KW has been here.

Track record aside, facelift Sox's best hope
Mike Downey
A devoted White Sox fan should be very, very apprehensive right about now.

In case you haven't noticed, the South Siders are undergoing a rather drastic makeover.

Walkman
12-16-2004, 12:13 PM
Typical Cubune baseball article -- reading names and numbers from the back of baseball cards and spitting them out. Sounds like the stuff of blowhards wearing pink hats in Wrigleyville.

Dolanski
12-16-2004, 12:20 PM
Of those people he mentioned, how many of them do you still want on this team? I think Downey is playing an angle that leaving the Sox equals success, but most of his examples are terrible. Of the list he put together of "success," I would say that only Ray Durham, David Wells, Bartolo Colon and Tom Gordon have had legit success. Wells wanted more money for not performing, and Durham and Gordon were overpaid on their way out. Colon was overpaid, but I didn't expect him to stick around anyways, that was more of a one shot deal. The jury is still out on Fogg, Wells, and Olivo, but everyone else has pretty much blown chunks.

Keith Foulke you can't argue with. We screwed up.

Bartolo Colon was a horse for us, but he didn't exactly tear the league a new one last year. He had a good year, but I think is still overpaid by the Angels.

The Alomar bros are done and we are happy to not have them anymore. Respect for Sandy, but he has a pitchfork in his back.

Rocky had ONE good year in Montreal, and was ineffective all last year.

Royce Clayton...don't make me laugh.

Ray Durham has been injury prone since joining the Giants and they spent way too much for him...rumor has it they want to move him and his bloated contract. Still, he has had success since leaving the Sox.

Josh Fogg and Kip Wells. These two I miss. One because Todd Ritchie was such a bust, and two, because I think that one or both can be a quality starter with some offense to back them up.

Tom Gordon is missed, but he was way too overpriced. Yankees overworked him last year which is why he got rocked in the ALCS.

D'Angelo Jimenez has been solid. Good, but not great. But better than Willie Harris. Still, I think change of scenery was necessary for him to produce.

Kenny Lofton is past his prime. He last did something for the Cubs during their stretch run.

Aaron Miles has been decent for the Rockies. Uribe was the first half MVP for the Sox. Break even if you ask me. I wonder how good Miles would be if he weren't in the launching pad that is Coors...

Miguel Olivo - the jury is still out. Let's see how he does with Seattle this year. If Freddy Garcia wins 20 games, I would say it was a worthwhile deal.

David Wells - I can't pitch for you this season because I am too fat and my back is screwed up, I want to prove myself to the team and fans, but I also want a huge raise. Yeah, buddy, whatever. Good idea by KW, but a square peg trying to fit into a round hole.

Esteban Loiza - one good playoff performance for the Yankees. That's it.

MINFAN1
12-16-2004, 12:35 PM
Good article, makes you wonder if it is K.W., or we are just downright cursed though the years. I have been a fan since way back in the forties, and I can remember many who have left who were great with other teams. I just feel that if you can`t win after a number of tries with the team you have, you have to try another approach. I hate to lose favorites, such as MAGGS, and C.LEE, but it was not working. Sometimes a team with pitching, defense and speed can be exciting to watch. I sure hope this can happen for us. I know one thing. As far as Chicago sports are concerned. The Bears are bad this year, and the Bulls are worse. I am ready for some BASEBALL!!!!

soxtalker
12-16-2004, 12:38 PM
It didn't seem like the point of the article was to criticize specific trades or even to question the need to make trades. Rather, he seemed to be pointing out that many of these players have done better elsewhere. It was an interesting observation, and, if valid, troubling. Of course, if true, the real question is "why?"

MeanFish
12-16-2004, 12:45 PM
Would David Wells be a round peg trying to fit in a square hole?

Sox Mobile
12-16-2004, 12:53 PM
This article makes KW look like the Tinkerer II, but we know financial restraints have forced him to make certain decisions. For example, put out the bucks for Koch (who knew?) and try to make due with a rotating 5th spot. Because of this, our team motto has been "hope for the best".

The really sad part is, if the organization had just put out a few extra bucks for pitching every year, we would be on a division winning streak.

Perhaps Maggs or Carlos could have gotten a MVP title for their outstanding #'s over the last few years.

Instead, even if we pick FINALLY up a SP and have an adequate rotation, we are left to hope for the best again , this time with our offense a question mark this year.

We can spout stats and conjecture all we want about the starting line up, we have no idea if their offense numbers will be enough.

MN didnt put up the numbers we did last year, we can take a hit on our numbers, but we now HAVE to match their pitching. But again, its painfully obvious if we had just spent a little more for pitching, they would have been left in out dust with our past line ups.

But no matter what, I'll be there in a frenzy on opening day, thats what is great about being a SOX fan, never say die!

maurice
12-16-2004, 01:19 PM
I agree with his main point, but it's a very sloppy article. The last part reads like it was thrown together in ten minutes, because he came up way short of his word limit right before his deadline.

Foulke29
12-16-2004, 02:02 PM
Typical Cubune baseball article -- reading names and numbers from the back of baseball cards and spitting them out. Sounds like the stuff of blowhards wearing pink hats in Wrigleyville.
Why do you think those morons loved Sammy Sosa for long - ignored the strikeouts, ignored the steroids - ignored what a POS he is...

Walkman
12-16-2004, 02:11 PM
Why do you think those morons loved Sammy Sosa for long - ignored the strikeouts, ignored the steroids - ignored what a POS he is...
Amen. The more I read the article, the more I can hear the bleacher morons whining: "Good move letting Maggs go....look how good he is doing in (wherever)" Do they really think we let Maggs go because we don't realize he is good? Did David Wells suck and stay fat because our organization is flawed? It's really one of more stupid premises I have read in a "baseball" article.

Sox Mobile
12-16-2004, 02:14 PM
Why do you think those morons loved Sammy Sosa for long - ignored the strikeouts, ignored the steroids - ignored what a POS he is...
Poor Cub fans, how will they know there is a game being played if Shammy isn't there to draw their attention to the field every 3 innings?

Looks like they will be spending 50 + bucks to talk on their cell phones.

Baines2Raines
12-16-2004, 03:23 PM
Of those people he mentioned, how many of them do you still want on this team? I think Downey is playing an angle that leaving the Sox equals success, but most of his examples are terrible. Of the list he put together of "success," I would say that only Ray Durham, David Wells, Bartolo Colon and Tom Gordon have had legit success. Wells wanted more money for not performing, and Durham and Gordon were overpaid on their way out. Colon was overpaid, but I didn't expect him to stick around anyways, that was more of a one shot deal. The jury is still out on Fogg, Wells, and Olivo, but everyone else has pretty much blown chunks

Keith Foulke you can't argue with. We screwed up.

Josh Fogg and Kip Wells. These two I miss. One because Todd Ritchie was such a bust, and two, because I think that one or both can be a quality starter with some offense to back them up.
I know the bottom line is W-L and with a team better than the Pirates both of them might have better records. But both Fogg and Wells haven't really pitched well. Both have never pitched 200 innings or more in a season. Both have high ERA's in the NL which has basically one automatic out.

Sure if Wells pitches 6 innings and allows 5 earned runs and the White Sox offense scores 6, he'll get the win. But is that really a quality start?

As for Foulke, he lost the closer job. He wasn't happy. He wanted to be the closer and didn't feel as though he should have to earn the spot again. I was a fan of Foulke before but after he he lost the closer job I thought he was a cancer.

rdivaldi
12-16-2004, 03:39 PM
The article lost all credibility once that hack mentioned the "Great" Royce Clayton. Downey is probably the second worst sports "columnist" in the city.

PaulDrake
12-16-2004, 04:23 PM
I was a fan of Foulke before but after he he lost the closer job I thought he was a cancer. ????

Dolanski
12-16-2004, 04:39 PM
I know the bottom line is W-L and with a team better than the Pirates both of them might have better records. But both Fogg and Wells haven't really pitched well. Both have never pitched 200 innings or more in a season. Both have high ERA's in the NL which has basically one automatic out.

Sure if Wells pitches 6 innings and allows 5 earned runs and the White Sox offense scores 6, he'll get the win. But is that really a quality start?

As for Foulke, he lost the closer job. He wasn't happy. He wanted to be the closer and didn't feel as though he should have to earn the spot again. I was a fan of Foulke before but after he he lost the closer job I thought he was a cancer.
Foulke definitely lost something here and found it again in Oakland. It may well be the case of a change of scenery was what he needed. But it still stings a bit that the best closer in baseball currently was on your team a couple years ago and didn't want to leave in the first place. Not saying it would have worked out if he stayed, but he, by far and away, has been the most successful recent ex-Sox.

Kip and Josh sting a lot because of how glaringly bad Todd Ritchie turned out to be. Even if they are mediocre, we traded two mediocre starters for one absolutely terrible one. No matter how you dice it, the Pirates got the best of us on that deal.

Still, I think the overall point is of all the people that have left, very few that he pointed out were successful post Sox.