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ukigdog
12-15-2004, 10:39 AM
I got an email back from one of my guys regarding Clement. Basically i was told that Barry is swamped he has seven free agents he is working with currently, and yes Clement is one of them. My guy is a cubs fan, so he of course poked fun at me being a sox fan, but said that hes not exactly sure what the deal is but knows that the white sox are in serious discussions over clement. Take it for what its worth...

Go Sox!

SEALgep
12-15-2004, 10:40 AM
Thanks for updating, it would certainly be nice IMO. Injury risk? Possible, but I think he's too good to pass up for the right price. Work the magic KW.

ukigdog
12-15-2004, 10:43 AM
I emailed him back and told him to tell Barry to MAKE Clement sign with the Sox. LOL!! So we will se what happens.

SEALgep
12-15-2004, 10:55 AM
I emailed him back and told him to tell Barry to MAKE Clement sign with the Sox. LOL!! So we will se what happens.That should get it done. :D:

mactheknife
12-15-2004, 10:57 AM
make it happen.

Flight #24
12-15-2004, 10:58 AM
I emailed him back and told him to tell Barry to MAKE Clement sign with the Sox. LOL!! So we will se what happens.
Tell him if he signs by the weekend, then shows up at the WSI XMas party, he'll have free booze & food all night (or maybe he should buy with his signing bonus!).

If that doesn't get him, nothing will!:cool:

chisox06
12-15-2004, 11:03 AM
It just seems so logical that the money we saved with the Lee trade that we would sign Clement, I honestly think its gonna happen and certainly hope so.

Buehrle
Garcia
Clement
Contreras
Garland

Garland finally in the spot he belongs, #5, that would be a very good rotation, and I think our bullpen is looking better than it has in years. If we get Clement, I would be happy with this offseason and I think we would have a competitve team.

MeanFish
12-15-2004, 11:16 AM
I'd just like to point one thing out: In an average rotation, Jon Garland is in fact a #3 pitcher. It will be a LUXURY to have him lower in the rotation.

The truth is, we don't want an average team. We want a good team, a playoff team and a WS contender. *That* is why we feel he is a #5. He doesn't necessarily *belong* in the 5-hole. It's just that we hope he will wind up there, as a testament to the remainder of our rotation.

Baby Fisk
12-15-2004, 11:19 AM
I'd just like to point one thing out: In an average rotation, Jon Garland is in fact a #3 pitcher. It will be a LUXURY to have him lower in the rotation.

The truth is, we don't want an average team. We want a good team, a playoff team and a WS contender. *That* is why we feel he is a #5. He doesn't necessarily *belong* in the 5-hole. It's just that we hope he will wind up there, as a testament to the remainder of our rotation.Exactly.

This is why I'm getting pissed off at folks who are ready to accept Hermanson as a #5 starter. Totally unacceptable! What's this BS from Kenny about having flexibility to go after a starter in June? JUNE?! I'm sick of being served the same BS by this organization every year. :angry:

SEALgep
12-15-2004, 11:28 AM
I'd just like to point one thing out: In an average rotation, Jon Garland is in fact a #3 pitcher. It will be a LUXURY to have him lower in the rotation.

The truth is, we don't want an average team. We want a good team, a playoff team and a WS contender. *That* is why we feel he is a #5. He doesn't necessarily *belong* in the 5-hole. It's just that we hope he will wind up there, as a testament to the remainder of our rotation.My gut tells me Garland performs like a real #3 if in the 5 hole. Little pressure, and I think he's due to really show what he's made of. We'll have to see, but Garland in the 5 spot looks pretty good.

MeanFish
12-15-2004, 11:32 AM
He'll definitely get more wins. After all, he'll be pitching against other teams' #5 guys. he pitched like a real #3 in the #3 hole too, with a very predictable near-.500 record.

What record do you think a middle of the rotation starter on an 83-win team is going to have? if you guessed 12-11 or something similar, you are right.

1917
12-15-2004, 11:35 AM
Boston just signed Renteria to a 40 million contract...so maybe they are tapped out and out of the Clement race?

LVSoxFan
12-15-2004, 11:36 AM
Garland in the #5 slot is what I've been saying all along.

As I tell my buddies, we're looking for the FOURTH starter, not the "fifth." Garland's the fifth. And I'm more than comfortable with him in that slot.

For God's sake, KW, sign Clement already!

He's gonna be good, he's gonna raise the level of the pitching staff, he's an ex-Cub (ka-ching!) and that potential pitching lineup makes me SALIVATE.

Get it done!

MeanFish
12-15-2004, 11:39 AM
Boston just signed Renteria to a 40 million contract...so maybe they are tapped out and out of the Clement race? That might be the greatest news ever. Let's cross our fingers! :D:

Edit - Maybe they did it because they know something about Clement that we don't?

FightingBillini
12-15-2004, 11:42 AM
Garland in the #5 slot is what I've been saying all along.

As I tell my buddies, we're looking for the FOURTH starter, not the "fifth." Garland's the fifth. And I'm more than comfortable with him in that slot.

For God's sake, KW, sign Clement already!

He's gonna be good, he's gonna raise the level of the pitching staff, he's an ex-Cub (ka-ching!) and that potential pitching lineup makes me SALIVATE.

Get it done!
To hell with that. I want a #1 starter. I wouldnt mind a bit if either Buehrle or Garcia is a #3.:D:

SEALgep
12-15-2004, 11:48 AM
He'll definitely get more wins. After all, he'll be pitching against other teams' #5 guys. he pitched like a real #3 in the #3 hole too, with a very predictable near-.500 record.

What record do you think a middle of the rotation starter on an 83-win team is going to have? if you guessed 12-11 or something similar, you are right.We're trying to break out of being an 83 win team. That's why people are really pushing for him to be a #5 in the hopes of getting at least a 15 game winner from #3.

MeanFish
12-15-2004, 11:55 AM
Exactly. I know that. Which is why it will be a *luxury* to have Garland as a #5. But an average pitcher in an average position, and on an average team is simply going to have an average w/l ratio. If we win this year with Garland as the #5, he will still have been a #3 pitcher.

Am I making sense?

FightingBillini
12-15-2004, 11:57 AM
Boston just signed Renteria to a 40 million contract...so maybe they are tapped out and out of the Clement race?Im not so sure. The one intelligent thing I heard Boston Gammons say in the last year was "The Red Sox won this year because they had the thing they didnt from 1919-2003 - pitching." Epstein knows that. They had a $130mil payroll last year, they wont balk at big contracts. They need pitching, and they will get it. Of Clement and Odalis Perez, I think they will get one. I just hope we get the other.

FightingBillini
12-15-2004, 12:00 PM
Exactly. I know that. Which is why it will be a *luxury* to have Garland as a #5. But an average pitcher in an average position, and on an average team is simply going to have an average w/l ratio. If we win this year with Garland as the #5, he will still have been a #3 pitcher.

Am I making sense?
Yeah. And if we sign a top free agent and Garcia is in the 3 spot, he will win 18-20 games. I agree with what Rob/Ron/Rex Dibble said before, Contreras will win 19-20 games in 2005. He will assert himself as a #1 or #2 pitcher, and he will be pitching against #4s and #5s. Oh, the possibilities! :bandance:

SEALgep
12-15-2004, 12:05 PM
Exactly. I know that. Which is why it will be a *luxury* to have Garland as a #5. But an average pitcher in an average position, and on an average team is simply going to have an average w/l ratio. If we win this year with Garland as the #5, he will still have been a #3 pitcher.

Am I making sense?Sort of?:?: :D:

SEALgep
12-15-2004, 12:07 PM
Yeah. And if we sign a top free agent and Garcia is in the 3 spot, he will win 18-20 games. I agree with what Rob/Ron/Rex Dibble said before, Contreras will win 19-20 games in 2005. He will assert himself as a #1 or #2 pitcher, and he will be pitching against #4s and #5s. Oh, the possibilities! :bandance:I would absolutely love it. :bandance:

MeanFish
12-15-2004, 12:07 PM
In a more extreme scenario. let's say that the D-Backs started Randy Johnson in the 4th rotation spot, and he won 30 games because he was going against other #4 starters. He'd still be a #1, who happened to be pitching in a #4 spot. That's how Garland will be in the #5 spot.

thedudeabides
12-15-2004, 12:17 PM
The thought of having 5 solid starters for a whole year would make this offseason comlete IMO.

kittle42
12-15-2004, 12:54 PM
In a more extreme scenario. let's say that the D-Backs started Randy Johnson in the 4th rotation spot, and he won 30 games because he was going against other #4 starters. He'd still be a #1, who happened to be pitching in a #4 spot. That's how Garland will be in the #5 spot.
This is not how rotations really work, though, since over the course of a season, even if every team's rotation consistenty remained their starting 1-5 in April, offdays and the like begin to stagger them.

Iguana775
12-15-2004, 01:17 PM
Anyone else not terribly excited about clement? I wouldnt be opposed but I wont be jumping up and down if it happened.

Randar68
12-15-2004, 01:22 PM
Anyone else not terribly excited about clement? I wouldnt be opposed but I wont be jumping up and down if it happened.*raises hand*

balke
12-15-2004, 01:31 PM
I'll take him so long as he loses the goatee. They seem to bring bad luck. (KOCH)

He's a great pitcher, and I don't associate him too directly as a loved cubbie by any means. He'd definitely be a smart pick-up.

Randar68
12-15-2004, 01:33 PM
I'll take him so long as he loses the goatee. They seem to bring bad luck. (KOCH)

He's a great pitcher, and I don't associate him too directly as a loved cubbie by any means. He'd definitely be a smart pick-up.
Is it a smart pick-up to assume that injury risk at 8-9 million dollars? Freddie Garcia money?

I think that's the biggest question.

illinibk
12-15-2004, 01:44 PM
Anyone else not terribly excited about clement? I wouldnt be opposed but I wont be jumping up and down if it happened.
Right here. I would prefer Odalis Perez, younger, cheaper, and a lefty.

balke
12-15-2004, 01:47 PM
Is it a smart pick-up to assume that injury risk at 8-9 million dollars? Freddie Garcia money?

I think that's the biggest question.
Yeah, I forgot about his asking price. It's most likely if we get a SP, it will be via trade. Pitchers are making way too much this season.

rmusacch
12-15-2004, 01:52 PM
I got an email back from one of my guys regarding Clement. Basically i was told that Barry is swamped he has seven free agents he is working with currently, and yes Clement is one of them. My guy is a cubs fan, so he of course poked fun at me being a sox fan, but said that hes not exactly sure what the deal is but knows that the white sox are in serious discussions over clement. Take it for what its worth...

Go Sox!
Does your guy work for Clement's agent?

Ol' No. 2
12-15-2004, 02:02 PM
Right here. I would prefer Odalis Perez, younger, cheaper, and a lefty.Me, too. I still have reservations about Perez, but I have MORE about Clement.

BeerHandle
12-15-2004, 02:07 PM
Right here. I would prefer Odalis Perez, younger, cheaper, and a lefty.
Concur! I just heard the asking price for Clements has reached $9 mil/year.

DaveIsHere
12-15-2004, 02:11 PM
Concur! I just heard the asking price for Clements has reached $9 mil/year.
source?

Jabroni
12-15-2004, 02:13 PM
Concur! I just heard the asking price for Clements has reached $9 mil/year.I'll take either one but I want at least one of these two. Odalis Perez is probably looking for around $21 million for 3 years. All the other free agent starting pitchers are undesirable, Derek Lowe included.

soltrain21
12-15-2004, 02:13 PM
Concur! I just heard the asking price for Clements has reached $9 mil/year.

Hopefully he isn't all about the money and decides to take 7 or 8 a year to play in Chicago.

Jabroni
12-15-2004, 02:15 PM
Hopefully he isn't all about the money and decides to take 7 or 8 a year to play in Chicago.That's what I'm thinking. The Sox have the best bargaining chip other than money when it comes to Clement -- the city itself. I heard that both Clement and his wife love Chicago and wouldn't mind raising their new baby here.

Win1ForMe
12-15-2004, 02:21 PM
Right here. I would prefer Odalis Perez, younger, cheaper, and a lefty.Perez won't be as cheap as we think if the Red Sox get involved (as has been speculated) and drive up the price. Plus Perez has some injury risks; he missed a few starts last year with a shoulder problem and was only averaging something like 91 pitches per game. He's not very durable.

But I also think giving Clement $8-9M per for 3 years isn't a wise investment. Although both guys still obviously make us better in the short-term.

MRKARNO
12-15-2004, 02:42 PM
Concur! I just heard the asking price for Clements has reached $9 mil/year.

All reports of this that I've heard have been shot down. Supposedly teams are reluctant to bid that high, including the Angels. The highest offer I've heard is Toronto's 3 years 25 million.

c4birdiemaker
12-15-2004, 03:44 PM
Anyone else not terribly excited about clement? I wouldnt be opposed but I wont be jumping up and down if it happened.i would rather have milton myself....and a closer by comittee:gulp:

c4birdiemaker
12-15-2004, 03:48 PM
All reports of this that I've heard have been shot down. Supposedly teams are reluctant to bid that high, including the Angels. The highest offer I've heard is Toronto's 3 years 25 million.maybe ur right but i cant believe that since the jankees wont even sign milton @ 8m... whose gonna give clement 9m? wright got 7m from jankees and i dont even think pavano got 10m. I think burkett is the 1 to go after. :gulp:

Flight #24
12-15-2004, 03:49 PM
i would rather have milton myself....and a closer by comittee:gulp:
Flyball pitcher.....USCF....:o:

rdivaldi
12-15-2004, 03:49 PM
i would rather have milton myself....and a closer by comittee:gulp:
Shouldn't that have been in teal?

c4birdiemaker
12-15-2004, 03:55 PM
just solos hrs i would hope:gulp:

illinibk
12-15-2004, 05:32 PM
Perez won't be as cheap as we think if the Red Sox get involved (as has been speculated) and drive up the price. Plus Perez has some injury risks; he missed a few starts last year with a shoulder problem and was only averaging something like 91 pitches per game. He's not very durable.

Well Clement has injury issues as well. But, Perez averaged 6.1 innings per start whereas Clement averaged slightly over 6 per start. 91 pitchers per start over 6 1/3 innings is 4.8 pitchers per out, compared to 100 pitches across 6 innings for Clement, or 5.55 pitches per out. So, Perez is more efficient in getting outs than Clement.

Overall the numbers between the two are very similar, where most of the descrepancies can be associated with the ballpark where each pitched. But, Perez forced more GDP than Clement (25-14 in 2004).

I did a comparison between the two today at work, but I left the file at work, damn it!! But, based on my comparison, they were very equal, though I would give the edge to Perez, because he is less wild (a combined 5 wild pitches and hit batsmen compared to 26 for Clement) than Clement. And as I said earlier, I also like Perez because he is three years younger and a lefty. All else being equal, I would take Perez over Clement if both were going to get the same price.

MRKARNO
12-15-2004, 06:02 PM
maybe ur right but i cant believe that since the jankees wont even sign milton @ 8m... whose gonna give clement 9m? wright got 7m from jankees and i dont even think pavano got 10m. I think burkett is the 1 to go after. :gulp:
I dont know what exactly your thinking here. IMO Clement and Perez are the two best FA pitchers after Pedro, including Pavano. As far as Burkett is concerned, I dont think he wants to pitch anymore and he's 40 years old to boot. You wouldnt be talking about Burnett would you?

BRDSR
12-15-2004, 06:28 PM
Is it a smart pick-up to assume that injury risk at 8-9 million dollars? Freddie Garcia money?

I think that's the biggest question.
Injury risk? What injury risk? He's started 30 or more games for 6 consecutive seasons and has 180 innings pitched for all those 6 except one. If Clement is an injury risk than every pitcher in the league is an injury risk. I don't understand this logic.

c4birdiemaker
12-15-2004, 07:23 PM
I dont know what exactly your thinking here. IMO Clement and Perez are the two best FA pitchers after Pedro, including Pavano. As far as Burkett is concerned, I dont think he wants to pitch anymore and he's 40 years old to boot. You wouldnt be talking about Burnett would you?sorry about that...i was having a senior moment. i was only thinking milton before because he doesnt walk as many as burnett or clement. milton wont budge off 8m though.

CWSGuy406
12-15-2004, 08:23 PM
Injury risk? What injury risk? He's started 30 or more games for 6 consecutive seasons and has 180 innings pitched for all those 6 except one. If Clement is an injury risk than every pitcher in the league is an injury risk. I don't understand this logic.
He was injured towards the end of last year, and with the amount of hard breaking pitches he throws, the risk is always there.

I think that's what Randar was aluding to.