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mjharrison72
12-15-2004, 10:26 AM
As a resident of the District of Columbia (not Virginia, not Maryland), I'm freaking OUTRAGED at the game the DC council is playing with Major League Baseball. It's not every day a baseball team comes knocking at your city's door. In fact, there were other cities that probably wanted this team even more than D.C., but MLB chose D.C., and now the council is absolutely spitting in the face of not only the league, but their own Mayor Williams, not the brightest bulb on the tree, but the man who made this possible by agreeing to a publicly financed stadium. Was it the best deal ever? Heck no, but he did what he had to do to get the team to agree to move here. The deal calls for a tax on the city's largest businesses, a tax on ticket sales, and rent from the team to offset the cost of the money the city will have to borrow. Nowhere in the agreement is existing public money funding the stadium. So many people here are saying it's this huge giveaway to rich baseball owners (which they;'re not completely wrong about), but lots of other people argue this money should be going to schools or neighborhood development, to which I say HOGWASH! Businesses in this city will not agree to additional funding for that crap... they want a place to take their clients during the summer. And I want to go see baseball when I want to, without having to go to Peter Angelos' admittedly beautiful, yet incredibly far-away, ballpark in Baltimore.
Sorry for the rant, but it's such an amazing opportunity to do something I think is so great for the city, and they're totally blowing it. Thank goodness I'm planning on moving back to Chicago this summer so I can see a real ballclub play anyway. At least I hope it's a real ballclub.

wdelaney72
12-15-2004, 10:35 AM
There's a lot more to this story than what you've written below.

For more information, check out http://www.fieldofschemes.com This thing has been a mess and bunch of lies from the getgo.

As a resident of the District of Columbia (not Virginia, not Maryland), I'm freaking OUTRAGED at the game the DC council is playing with Major League Baseball. It's not every day a baseball team comes knocking at your city's door. In fact, there were other cities that probably wanted this team even more than D.C., but MLB chose D.C., and now the council is absolutely spitting in the face of not only the league, but their own Mayor Williams, not the brightest bulb on the tree, but the man who made this possible by agreeing to a publicly financed stadium. Was it the best deal ever? Heck no, but he did what he had to do to get the team to agree to move here. The deal calls for a tax on the city's largest businesses, a tax on ticket sales, and rent from the team to offset the cost of the money the city will have to borrow. Nowhere in the agreement is existing public money funding the stadium. So many people here are saying it's this huge giveaway to rich baseball owners (which they;'re not completely wrong about), but lots of other people argue this money should be going to schools or neighborhood development, to which I say HOGWASH! Businesses in this city will not agree to additional funding for that crap... they want a place to take their clients during the summer. And I want to go see baseball when I want to, without having to go to Peter Angelos' admittedly beautiful, yet incredibly far-away, ballpark in Baltimore.
Sorry for the rant, but it's such an amazing opportunity to do something I think is so great for the city, and they're totally blowing it. Thank goodness I'm planning on moving back to Chicago this summer so I can see a real ballclub play anyway. At least I hope it's a real ballclub.

mjharrison72
12-15-2004, 10:44 AM
There's a lot more to this story than what you've written below.

For more information, check out http://www.fieldofschemes.com (http://www.fieldofschemes.com/) This thing has been a mess and bunch of lies from the getgo.There's no question it's been a mess, and I think a lot of that was MLB's intention by dragging its feet for so long and insisting on council approval before the end of the calendar year. But there were so many hoops the city and league had to jump through to make this happen, and one thing is clear: Thc Council chairwoman and others, by including amendments in their approval of the stadium financing, are gumming up the works and making it easier, as once council member said, to let MLB walk away from the deal.
My argument does not make fiscal sense. In fact, its basis is largely cemented in the fact that I was able to enjoy going to ballgames when I was younger, and I want kids here to have the same opportunity. But even from a fiscal point of view, it's not like most people have to open their wallets to bring the team here. Just the richest businesses.
The council is trying to wrest concessions from MLB, and MLB is going to go to Vegas or any number of other cities where they can get what they want without legislative interference: a publicly financed stadium.:angry: :angry: :angry:

wdelaney72
12-15-2004, 10:49 AM
There's no question it's been a mess, and I think a lot of that was MLB's intention by dragging its feet for so long and insisting on council approval before the end of the calendar year. But there were so many hoops the city and league had to jump through to make this happen, and one thing is clear: Thc Council chairwoman and others, by including amendments in their approval of the stadium financing, are gumming up the works and making it easier, as once council member said, to let MLB walk away from the deal.
My argument does not make fiscal sense. In fact, its basis is largely cemented in the fact that I was able to enjoy going to ballgames when I was younger, and I want kids here to have the same opportunity. But even from a fiscal point of view, it's not like most people have to open their wallets to bring the team here. Just the richest businesses.
The council is trying to wrest concessions from MLB, and MLB is going to go to Vegas or any number of other cities where they can get what they want without legislative interference: a publicly financed stadium.:angry: :angry: :angry:
I thought MLB should have put the team in Vegas all along.

True on MLB making this whole thing an unnecessary episode of "Days Of Our Lives".

mjharrison72
12-15-2004, 11:04 AM
I thought MLB should have put the team in Vegas all along.

True on MLB making this whole thing an unnecessary episode of "Days Of Our Lives".You think Vegas deserves a team more than our nation's capital? Gambling is like baseball's cardinal sin... seems more logical they should go to Washington, but I know I'm biased.
I'm so keyed up about this... I think maybe the only thing that could get me more keyed up, from a "teams changing cities" standpoint, is if anyone tried to move the Sox.
And I just came up with a great idea... since the Urinal is falling apart anyway, why not move the Kubs to Puerto Rico? Or Vegas?

Lip Man 1
12-15-2004, 01:02 PM
Perhaps the D.C. council figured that with all of the problems and issues in that town they had better things to do with limited money then to 'give' it away to MLB by taking on the lion's share of the cost of building a new stadium for some owner.

As has been done in San Francisco and Miami stadiums have been built with the owners paying for them.

Maybe the D.C. council simply wants these incredibly wealthy business people to pay their fair share.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 01:13 PM
Perhaps the D.C. council figured that with all of the problems and issues in that town they had better things to do with limited money then to 'give' it away to MLB by taking on the lion's share of the cost of building a new stadium for some owner.

As has been done in San Francisco and Miami stadiums have been built with the owners paying for them.

Maybe the D.C. council simply wants these incredibly wealthy business people to pay their fair share.

Lip
It might cost them their team. This is a monopoly. Pay MLB tribute or you might be left out in the cold... like D.C. should know from 33 years experience.

There are always better ways to spend the public money than building a new ballpark. Unfortunately the money for building such edifices is not easily raised for practical uses like fixing the sewers or the public schools.

The money "saved" not to build a D.C. stadium will never be applied to fixing sewers or schools. You take that one to the bank. That's simply not how public policy is created... least of all in Washington D.C.

Dan H
12-16-2004, 10:37 AM
It might cost them their team. This is a monopoly. Pay MLB tribute or you might be left out in the cold... like D.C. should know from 33 years experience.

There are always better ways to spend the public money than building a new ballpark. Unfortunately the money for building such edifices is not easily raised for practical uses like fixing the sewers or the public schools.

The money "saved" not to build a D.C. stadium will never be applied to fixing sewers or schools. You take that one to the bank. That's simply not how public policy is created... least of all in Washington D.C.
But it also has been shown that new stadiums just constantly drain local coffers and don't add to the local economy. Maybe they will lose their team, and maybe they are better off.

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 11:45 AM
But it also has been shown that new stadiums just constantly drain local coffers and don't add to the local economy. Maybe they will lose their team, and maybe they are better off.WE're not better off. Washington should have a baseball team.

Kogs35
12-16-2004, 11:55 AM
WE're not better off. Washington should have a baseball team.
they couldn't hold a team the last 2 times why do they deserve 1?

Frater Perdurabo
12-16-2004, 11:57 AM
WE're not better off. Washington should have a baseball team.

It would be best for MLB to contract the Expos and Devil Rays, and move the Twins to Washington (the return of the original Senators). The quality of play would go up it would put short-term deflationary pressures on player salaries.

PaulDrake
12-16-2004, 12:05 PM
It would be best for MLB to contract the Expos and Devil Rays, and move the Twins to Washington (the return of the original Senators). The quality of play would go up it would put short-term deflationary pressures on player salaries. Interesting, but DC is still without a ball park. I bet Peter Angelos is laughing his you know what off over all this.

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 12:15 PM
Interesting, but DC is still without a ball park. I bet Peter Angelos is laughing his you know what off over all this.RFK makes a pretty nice ballpark. DC is without a NEW ballpark.

Kogs35
12-16-2004, 12:17 PM
Interesting, but DC is still without a ball park. I bet Peter Angelos is laughing his you know what off over all this.
your right he is. im wondering if portland is back in the race now besides vegas

PaulDrake
12-16-2004, 12:18 PM
You're right it does but will it be good enough for the powers that be? What about the Redskins? Will they be happy sharing on a longer term basis?

Frater Perdurabo
12-16-2004, 12:23 PM
You're right it does but will it be good enough for the powers that be? What about the Redskins? Will they be happy sharing on a longer term basis?

IIRC, the Redskins are playing in a new stadium, FedEx Field (http://www.redskins.com/fedexfield/). :smile:

Frater Perdurabo
12-16-2004, 12:25 PM
You're right it does but will it be good enough for the powers that be? What about the Redskins? Will they be happy sharing on a longer term basis?

Paul, I knew that if I posted a reply with the phrase "short-term deflationary pressures," I'd get you to reply... :cool:
(Inside joke from the old PI days.)

Kogs35
12-16-2004, 12:29 PM
You're right it does but will it be good enough for the powers that be? What about the Redskins? Will they be happy sharing on a longer term basis?
redskins play at fedex field

PaulDrake
12-16-2004, 12:37 PM
IIRC, the Redskins are playing in a new stadium, FedEx Field (http://www.redskins.com/fedexfield/). :smile: What a dolt huh? Can walk and chew gum. Can't work and post. :redneck

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 01:27 PM
they couldn't hold a team the last 2 times why do they deserve 1?The Washington metro area has grown much larger since the last time it tried to support a baseball team. And they deserve it because it's the NATION'S CAPITAL! The national pasttime belongs in the nation's capital.

Lip Man 1
12-16-2004, 01:28 PM
Submitted for discussion:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=caple_jim&id=1947248

Lip

Kogs35
12-16-2004, 01:35 PM
The Washington metro area has grown much larger since the last time it tried to support a baseball team. And they deserve it because it's the NATION'S CAPITAL! The national pasttime belongs in the nation's capital.
see the light dc has more important things to worry about than supporting a baseball team!!!! just because its the national past time doesnt mean anything. if a city cant supports its school systems or hospitals it doesnt need a baseball team.

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 01:41 PM
Submitted for discussion:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=caple_jim&id=1947248

LipI agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, but the time to bring this up was earlier. Linda Cropp admittedly blindsided the league with this amendment. Mayor Williams should have included private finding for the stadium in the initial deal, instead of giving the store away. Blame clearly goes all around, but one thing I'm certain about is that Linda Cropp is benefitting politically from this. She's a household name, and a hero to most people in DC who didn't want a completely publicly funded stadium. Not to me, but to most. Clearly next in line to be mayor, if the election were held tomorrow. I understood that the funding for the stadium was to come from a special tax. Of course, the city would be on the line for certain elements, but most of it was to come from a special tax on the city's richest businesses.
MLB now has to do its part and concede or compromise on the private funding thing... it IS ridiculous to have the city shoulder the full burden, and as much as I feel Linda Cropp threw a wrench in the works for her own personal gain, I also feel MLB thought it could take the city or Washington for all it's worth. They better freaking work it out.:angry:

Kogs35
12-16-2004, 01:43 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, but the time to bring this up was earlier. Linda Cropp admittedly blindsided the league with this amendment. Mayor Williams should have included private finding for the stadium in the initial deal, instead of giving the store away. Blame clearly goes all around, but one thing I'm certain about is that Linda Cropp is benefitting politically from this. She's a household name, and a hero to most people in DC who didn't want a completely publicly funded stadium. Not to me, but to most. Clearly next in line to be mayor, if the election were held tomorrow. I understood that the funding for the stadium was to come from a special tax. Of course, the city would be on the line for certain elements, but most of it was to come from a special tax on the city's richest businesses.
MLB now has to do its part and concede or compromise on the private funding thing... it IS ridiculous to have the city shoulder the full burden, and as much as I feel Linda Cropp threw a wrench in the works for her own personal gain, I also feel MLB thought it could take the city or Washington for all it's worth. They better freaking work it out.:angry:
say goodbye. unless a owner comes in and buys the team in the next 2 weeks and pays for the stadium dc will not have baseball

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 01:47 PM
see the light dc has more important things to worry about than supporting a baseball team!!!! just because its the national past time doesnt mean anything. if a city cant supports its school systems or hospitals it doesnt need a baseball team.This is the backwards logic of most people living in the DC area... that if we don't approve the baseball stadium, there will be all this money for schools, sewers, hospitals and libraries and DC will be a safe place to raise children. Guess what? As much money as they throw at the school system here, it never gets any better. And not a single dollar of existing public money was going to go toward the stadium... it was all going to be borrowed and use new taxes to pay the service on that debt. So the argument that a baseball team is something the city can't afford because its schools or hospitals are shoddy is pointless.
On the other hand, the argument that the city has a perfectly acceptable stadium in RFK to begin with is pretty valid. But the MLB had to have its new ballpark, and that's the deal our stupid mayor signed.

FightingBillini
12-16-2004, 01:51 PM
they couldn't hold a team the last 2 times why do they deserve 1?
The two Senators teams were moved becuase of horrible, corrupt ownership. Both teams took the sweet deal elsewhere. DC always had a baseball following, and they have more people know than ever.

As for your arguement aboud the schools, this is more of a political thing. DC spend among the highest in the nation per student. That is a fact. Their schools are HORRIBLE. Even though they spend so much, you propose that throwing more money into them will improve them? "Hey, the fire isnt going out! Throw more money on it." Clearly, money is not the problem. However, people who share a particular political ideology (Im not getting this sent to the roadhouse) think "if it dont work, throw more money into it."

You would make a great politician, especially in DC.

voodoochile
12-16-2004, 01:53 PM
The two Senators teams were moved becuase of horrible, corrupt ownership. Both teams took the sweet deal elsewhere. DC always had a baseball following, and they have more people know than ever.

As for your arguement aboud the schools, this is more of a political thing. DC spend among the highest in the nation per student. That is a fact. Their schools are HORRIBLE. Even though they spend so much, you propose that throwing more money into them will improve them? "Hey, the fire isnt going out! Throw more money on it." Clearly, money is not the problem. However, people who share a particular political ideology (Im not getting this sent to the roadhouse) think "if it dont work, throw more money into it."

You would make a great politician, especially in DC.
Ideally, you wouldn't throw the money directly on the fire, but spend said money on more firetrucks, water hoses, extinguishers or in this case better tools for education (more teachers, better administrators, revamping of science classes, newer books, etc.)

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 01:56 PM
Ideally, you wouldn't throw the money directly on the fire, but spend said money on more firetrucks, water hoses, extinguishers or in this case better tools for education (more teachers, better administrators, revamping of science classes, newer books, etc.)I agree 100%, but again, this has nothing to do with baseball in DC. The money the city isn't spending is not going to better schools or libraries (DC does have a fantastic library system, though). It's just going to not be spent. Which is maybe better for those who are more fiscally inclined, but it sucks for those of us who were planning on going to at least 20 nationals games next year. Well, at least 10.

Kogs35
12-16-2004, 01:58 PM
I agree 100%, but again, this has nothing to do with baseball in DC. The money the city isn't spending is not going to better schools or libraries (DC does have a fantastic library system, though). It's just going to not be spent. Which is maybe better for those who are more fiscally inclined, but it sucks for those of us who were planning on going to at least 20 nationals games next year. Well, at least 10.
its a loose/loose situation

Dadawg_77
12-16-2004, 01:58 PM
The two Senators teams were moved becuase of horrible, corrupt ownership. Both teams took the sweet deal elsewhere. DC always had a baseball following, and they have more people know than ever.

As for your arguement aboud the schools, this is more of a political thing. DC spend among the highest in the nation per student. That is a fact. Their schools are HORRIBLE. Even though they spend so much, you propose that throwing more money into them will improve them? "Hey, the fire isnt going out! Throw more money on it." Clearly, money is not the problem. However, people who share a particular political ideology (Im not getting this sent to the roadhouse) think "if it dont work, throw more money into it."

You would make a great politician, especially in DC.
Even if the school system didn't deserve the money, why does the MLB? Why should rich business pay tax to support the team? In all fairness if they wanted the team in the city, couldn't they buy it themselves or fund the stadium?

SouthSide_HitMen
12-16-2004, 02:23 PM
Perhaps the D.C. council figured that with all of the problems and issues in that town they had better things to do with limited money then to 'give' it away to MLB by taking on the lion's share of the cost of building a new stadium for some owner.

As has been done in San Francisco and Miami stadiums have been built with the owners paying for them.

Maybe the D.C. council simply wants these incredibly wealthy business people to pay their fair share.

LipFinally, representatives who take their role as fiduciary of the public's money seriously.

Baseball shouldn't demand welfare payments / extortion payments. If it cannot stand on its own merits, it should fail - just like all other businesses should.

This mentality of confiscating wealth & income for whatever pops into governments head as a "need" is going to lead to the downfall of our nation.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-16-2004, 02:26 PM
But it also has been shown that new stadiums just constantly drain local coffers and don't add to the local economy. Maybe they will lose their team, and maybe they are better off.
Don't argue with facts now, you are not playing fair.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-16-2004, 02:28 PM
The Washington metro area has grown much larger since the last time it tried to support a baseball team. And they deserve it because it's the NATION'S CAPITAL! The national pasttime belongs in the nation's capital.
Just don't name the team the Bullets - wouldn't want people to shoot each other influenced by a pro sports team name. LOL

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 02:41 PM
Somebody mentioned Linda Cropp's comment she has a 30-year deal with the citizens of DC... here's the quote, along with a comment from a DC neighborhood message board:

"I keep hearing that we had a deal with baseball," Cropp said. "Well,
I have had a 30-year-plus deal with the citizens of this city. That
deal trumps any other consideration with Major League Baseball."

What an egotistical blowhard! Well, I've lived here for 30 years,
and I can't think of one significant thing Cropp has done for the
city. As I recall, she was one of the school board members who
helped destroy the school system and then became a city councilperson
about 1990, just in time to help Marion Barry careen us into the
Control Board. Any argument she makes for fiscal responsibility
here is no more than a pose, about as truthful as her many assurances
to the mayor and others that she would support the baseball deal.
Certainly makes you wonder how the District could possibly justify
full congressional representation when we elect such clowns.

The "Control Board" he refers to is the congressional committee that took over responsibility for governing DC after it went to ----. Just nice to see someone, somewhere agrees Cropp is relishing the limelight a little too much, however righteous some think she is for standing up to MLB and screwing it up for the rest of us.

Kogs35
12-16-2004, 02:46 PM
Somebody mentioned Linda Cropp's comment she has a 30-year deal with the citizens of DC... here's the quote, along with a comment from a DC neighborhood message board:

"I keep hearing that we had a deal with baseball," Cropp said. "Well,
I have had a 30-year-plus deal with the citizens of this city. That
deal trumps any other consideration with Major League Baseball."

What an egotistical blowhard! Well, I've lived here for 30 years,
and I can't think of one significant thing Cropp has done for the
city. As I recall, she was one of the school board members who
helped destroy the school system and then became a city councilperson
about 1990, just in time to help Marion Barry careen us into the
Control Board. Any argument she makes for fiscal responsibility
here is no more than a pose, about as truthful as her many assurances
to the mayor and others that she would support the baseball deal.
Certainly makes you wonder how the District could possibly justify
full congressional representation when we elect such clowns.

The "Control Board" he refers to is the congressional committee that took over responsibility for governing DC after it went to ----. Just nice to see someone, somewhere agrees Cropp is relishing the limelight a little too much, however righteous some think she is for standing up to MLB and screwing it up for the rest of us.
i deff think she is standing up to mlb. there was a reason why unlce jerry was on the panal to move the expos

Dan H
12-16-2004, 04:07 PM
WE're not better off. Washington should have a baseball team.
All I can say is that Baltimore is not that far away and communities shouldn't be held hostage by major league baseball.

mjharrison72
12-16-2004, 04:35 PM
All I can say is that Baltimore is not that far away and communities shouldn't be held hostage by major league baseball.That's easy for you to say when you don't live in Washington without a car. When I have to go to Baltimore for a game, I have to leave work early, take a 15-minute subway ride to Union Station, wait 20-30 minutes for a commuter train (so I get a seat) that takes an hour or more to get to Baltimore. It's nice it's right by the stadium, but then I have to stay for the entire game so I can catch a bus back to Union Station, then catch another subway. It's a freaking ordeal. Weekend games are even worse, because the commuter trains don't run. It's basically find a friend with a car or watch the game at home. The Washington club would have been much easier to go see.

Dadawg_77
12-16-2004, 05:05 PM
Some addtional reading on this one.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/


I've heard at least one (second-hand) report that MLB has contacted D.C. officials looking to broker a deal that will both satisfy Cropp and ensure Bud Selig that he'll get his "'$581 million off one stadium' coupon," as councilmember Adrian Fenty called it on Tuesday. Given Selig's lack of viable alternatives, it certainly makes sense for him to look for a way to salvage what would still be an incredibly lucrative deal for MLB - but then, calm thinking in the heat of battle has never exactly been the watchword of the Selig administration.

Besides, as sports economist Robert Baade (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3226-2004Dec15.html) noted to the Post, while putting up even $140 million in private money would be "in the middle of the road" as far as recent baseball stadium deals go, agreeing to grant concessions to D.C. now "wouldn't set a good precedent for them. Major League Baseball has a tough decision to make here."

Lip Man 1
12-16-2004, 08:13 PM
Here's another one for discussion:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-bbn-jim-litke,1,7241612.story?coll=sns-ap-sports-headlines

Lip

mjmcend
12-17-2004, 11:36 PM
This is some shocking news. Although in the end I don't know if this revalation will change anything.

"The sex industry funded part of a campaign that opposes the construction of a new baseball stadium on the Anacostia waterfront.
Opponents of a publicly financed baseball stadium spent roughly $50,000, trying to sway public opinion."



http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?sid=365294&nid=25

ondafarm
12-17-2004, 11:44 PM
Washington D.C. needs a team so that Damm Yankees, the play, doesn't have to suffer through lousy updates. See it in it's original unaltered form.

TheBull19
12-18-2004, 05:09 AM
Clearly, money is not the problem. However, people who share a particular political ideology (Im not getting this sent to the roadhouse) think "if it dont work, throw more money into it."

You would make a great politician, especially in DC.
You'd think a politician or person with the point of view that throwing money at education and other problems of the city is irresponsible, would also think the city has no business in giving a private enterprise hundreds of millions of dollars to build a stadium. Could you imagine if someone went to the city council and said, hey I want to open a bar, I'll bring in some regional bands to entertain the people of D.C. I'll be supporting the local music scene, which will help make our city more attractive to visitors. How about a half million for building expenses?