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Flight #24
12-15-2004, 07:04 AM
From today's Southtown by Joe Cowley (Joe - if you read this - hope you're doing well): http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/151sd5.htm
Key quote:




By the end of the 2004 regular season, the player nicknamed "El Caballo" had dropped in the animal hierarchy to "El Asno."

Sox starting pitcher Mark Buehrle was just one of his teammates who took offense to the attitude displayed by Lee, not only in the clubhouse, but on the field. Buehrle felt Lee easily went into a selfish mode, especially when he wasn't hitting well. His "me first" attitude was bad enough when things were going well for him at the plate, but when he was in a slump, he cared about nothing else except getting out of it. That meant sulking off the field and not hustling on it.Before FOLIP get in a bunch about how players leave the org - there are no quotes from Sox management on Carlos (other than some pretty vague ones from KW about how they've been working with Carlos to improve on things). The real indictment here is that Sox players, with Buehrle named particularly were down on the guy. Sounds remarkably similar to the story on Olivo (but even worse since he was at least reportedly a good teammate).

This team seems to be getting a big attitude transfusion, which is IMO a very good thing.

Bobby Thigpen
12-15-2004, 07:43 AM
Wow, that's pretty disappointing from a guy that appeared to be a pretty nice guy and a good teammate. That last quote about him hating everyone is especially damning if that is the true context of it. I liked Carlos but that's some pretty un nice stuff.

Tragg
12-15-2004, 07:48 AM
Because Konerko is a gamer. Konerko will try to hit to the opposite field if it means moving a runner into scoring position rather than lighting up the box score. Konerko is a good teammate on and off the field. Konerko is a player who cares whether the team wins or loses at the end of the night. Lee was none of these.

That explains why Cowley suggests that the Sox extend PK

And then there's this:There were times he ignored teammates and coaches telling him to adjust his positioning for a certain hitter, and the result was a single or double, rather than an out. There were other times when he seemed completely unconcerned about who the opposing hitter was, and rather than play to the hitter's tendency, Lee stood like a statue, unable to get close enough to a batted ball to even risk making an error.

REminds me of the Saints QB; a couple of years ago, with the ball at midfield and 2 seconds left, the coaches called in the play to throw the hail mary; the QB called timeout, went over to the sideline, and told the coaches that would hurt his INT ratio and passing efficiency stats, with him in a contract year. So the saints sent the backup in to heave it.

Of course, the brilliant Saints, let the selfish one start the 2nd half, sign him to an extension, while letting Jake Delhomme go to the Panthers

Frater Perdurabo
12-15-2004, 07:51 AM
Wow. If even half of what Cowley writes is "true," then it's pretty damning.

SoxFanTillDeath
12-15-2004, 08:09 AM
Carlos lee was my favorite playing on the sox, but he did always seem selfish to me without inside information. I don't doubt the validity of these comments at all.

Dolanski
12-15-2004, 08:15 AM
At one point near the end of the 2004 season, Lee was sitting in the clubhouse by a few reporters and was asked whom he liked on the team since Ordonez had been absent because of a knee injury.

"No one," he responded. "I hate everyone."



Wow, now that is harsh. Still, you just never know about stories like these. How come this stuff comes out now, after he is gone? I have never heard anything remotely like this.

soxtalker
12-15-2004, 08:21 AM
At one point near the end of the 2004 season, Lee was sitting in the clubhouse by a few reporters and was asked whom he liked on the team since Ordonez had been absent because of a knee injury.

"No one," he responded. "I hate everyone."



Wow, now that is harsh. Still, you just never know about stories like these. How come this stuff comes out now, after he is gone? I have never heard anything remotely like this.
While I like to know what is going on inside the Sox, this was probably something better left unsaid while he was on the team. Getting it out into the media would not have changed his or his teammates opinions, and it wouldn't have helped his trade value.

DMarte708
12-15-2004, 08:22 AM
:KW
"That's it Sox fans, console yourselves the reason I traded Lee was because of his clubhouse attitude. Simply ignore every statistical/contractual advantage Lee has over his slow footed counterpart, Konerko. I honestly love these articles; anything to make my job easier. Now everyone can ignore 5+ years of production because of vague behavior references quoted in a newspaper!"

All of this, of course, is followed by Carlos Lee's rebuttal in which he undoubtedly rips this organization to shreds. I'm eagerly anticipating his comments.

Frater Perdurabo
12-15-2004, 08:24 AM
Wow, now that is harsh. Still, you just never know about stories like these. How come this stuff comes out now, after he is gone? I have never heard anything remotely like this.

I'm just speculating, but perhaps Cowley had all these notes filed away in his many notebooks. Reporters don't always write everything that everyone tells them right away. The players who said these things to him may also have spoken to him on the condition of anonymity and/or off the record at the time. Once Lee was traded, Cowley may have called his sources (Buherle, etc.) and asked if he could use their remarks/quotes with proper attribution.

Perhaps Lip could shed better light on the journalism side of this as well. Lip?

munchman33
12-15-2004, 08:25 AM
Well, Carlos might not have been the best teammate. But no one can question his production. I don't think attitude was that much of a factor. Kenny knew that in order to get pitching he'd have to trade either him or Konerko, and Carlos was far more marketable.

fledgedrallycap
12-15-2004, 08:44 AM
Not to pile onto ex-players and fan favorites, but B&B were really tearing into Maggs as well. Stating Ordonez changed an a lot over the last couple years - and not in a good way. They didn't go into details and who knows if it's true, but they said don't be suprised if things start to leak out now that he's departed.

voodoochile
12-15-2004, 08:50 AM
I don't know how much of this is true or not, but I won't miss watching Carlos try to jerk every ball down the LF line for the first 2 months of the season only to finally start going the other way in mid-June.

minastirith67
12-15-2004, 08:52 AM
My main questions are thus: Why do we only hear about this now? Why have we heard nothing of it during his career with the Sox? Is it because Cowley didn't want to create any more clubhouse friction than there already was?

SEALgep
12-15-2004, 09:13 AM
My main questions are thus: Why do we only hear about this now? Why have we heard nothing of it during his career with the Sox? Is it because Cowley didn't want to create any more clubhouse friction than there already was?This has been talked about before, but the guy was just traded. The information is relevant right now, and thus an article about it.

wdelaney72
12-15-2004, 09:15 AM
My main questions are thus: Why do we only hear about this now? Why have we heard nothing of it during his career with the Sox? Is it because Cowley didn't want to create any more clubhouse friction than there already was?
I can't speak for the media, but you shouldn't hear about ANY of this from teammates while someone's still on the team. To me, that's being more of a clubhouse cancer than the guy who's being a jerk.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-15-2004, 09:18 AM
A year ago I couldn't imagine life as a Sox fan without Magglio Ordonez. I mean the guy was the man, he was the best player we had. He had to stay in a Sox uniform for the rest of his career. Then the injury questions started rising. He denied a couple of extension offers. His comments started coming out. And now, in my eyes, he's a complete jagoff and I'm glad he's gone.

A few days ago Carlos Lee was our # 3 hitter. A solid .300 guy with power, speed, and somewhat above average fielding. In my eyes he was going to be with the Sox for at least 1-2 more years and hopefully be re-signed to a long-term deal. And then, a couple of days ago, he gets traded. And now his story is coming out. And just like Magglio, in my eyes, he turns out to be a complete jagoff and I'm glad he's gone.

Who's next to turn out to be a complete jagoff? Joe Crede? Aaron Rowand? Our mascot Southpaw? As bad as these stories are looking, I just hope that the new guys coming in are the complete opposites and actually do play team ball and don't bitch.

beckett21
12-15-2004, 09:18 AM
This is not in defense of the trade, because I still think KW should have gotten more for Lee (although I think people are really discounting the value of Vizcaino in this deal).

My opinion of CLee has always been that he is a lazy ballplayer and loses his focus easily. I did like him as a player here overall, and won't dispute his production. But oftentimes he would look disinterested. No one can argue the fact that he was good for several blatant baserunning gaffes a season. I think that Maggs really pushed him to improve his focus. Without Maggs, I could easily see Lee falter.

Again, not defending the trade here. I have always held this opinion. I'll still miss the guy. But his loss is not the end of the world.

jabrch
12-15-2004, 09:19 AM
From today's Southtown by Joe Cowley (Joe - if you read this - hope you're doing well): http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/151sd5.htm
Key quote:

Before FOLIP get in a bunch about how players leave the org - there are no quotes from Sox management on Carlos (other than some pretty vague ones from KW about how they've been working with Carlos to improve on things). The real indictment here is that Sox players, with Buehrle named particularly were down on the guy. Sounds remarkably similar to the story on Olivo (but even worse since he was at least reportedly a good teammate).

This team seems to be getting a big attitude transfusion, which is IMO a very good thing.


Just Cowley being Cowley...rip guy when he leaves to stir up the pot. Cowley is a POMPOUS ARROGANT SELF-PROMOTING JERK regardless of what the Carlos Lee situation is. Instead of trying to make the news, Cowley out to report it. And this is not news. This is stale news., if it is even true at all.

I'm gonne file in under Hangar's Lazy Journalism folder.

They didn't get rid of him because of a bad attitude. If they did, they'd start with other players and work their way down. (Magglio, for example, has a dockett that the media is waiting for permission to share - likely after he signs his FA deal so they don't destroy his value). The got rid of him because they got a LF who can have a huge impact on this lineup, a setup guy that would strengthen the pen, and saved a ton of $$$$.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 09:20 AM
My main questions are thus: Why do we only hear about this now? Why have we heard nothing of it during his career with the Sox? Is it because Cowley didn't want to create any more clubhouse friction than there already was?
This is completely a non-surprise. If you've ever worked in an organization with more than 4 people in it, all the gossip gets dialed up to 11 just as soon as somebody leaves.

Lee was a selfish jerk.
Maggs was a selfish jerk.
Belle was a selfish jerk.
McDowell was a selfish jerk.
Allen was a selfish jerk.
Aparicio was a selfish jerk.
Collins was a selfish jerk.
etcetera etcetera...

Some of it is true, some of it isn't. 100 percent is based on somebody's recollections, never facts. The departed party hardly ever gets their side of the story told, making this all the better time to stab them in the back since there won't be any repercussions.

I wish I could say I'm surprised it was Cowley to put this stuff in print, but I'm not. He specializes in this "stuff."

I dunno... let's see if either Maggs or Lee bothers to respond. I doubt they will. Frankly the smart move is not to respond. Nothing positive is accomplished and you only get yourself muddy by trading charges (see Stone, Steve). The other side already looks small by whispering behind your back, so just leave their b.s. out there unanswered. It makes them look that much smaller...

One last point. Why is Mark Buehrle's name attached to this stuff? He really needs to get a clue about who he is talking to. I can't wait to hear what the clubhouse has to say about him when he leaves for St. Louis... guaranteed the reporters will be taking notes on every single thing they have to say, true and otherwise.

Bobby Thigpen
12-15-2004, 09:21 AM
The Sox have been pretty good about keeping this kind of stuff quiet, as are most clubs. And besides these aren't the Yankees which are daily national news. They probably didn't immediately report it because outside of us, no one really cares. Not to mention how it hurts his trade value.

Frater Perdurabo
12-15-2004, 09:22 AM
This is all very interesting. I wonder the extent to which removing the bad attitudes actually will improve team chemistry and how much that might affect the team's performance on the field.

Most of us have wondered why the Sox consistently have underachieved given the talent and statistical production of their players. Now it's starting to come out.

I've said for several years that the Sox are less than the sum of their parts (while the Twins are greater than the sum of their parts, which is why they have won the AL Central over the Sox). Perhaps now we are seeing why.

infohawk
12-15-2004, 09:23 AM
At one point near the end of the 2004 season, Lee was sitting in the clubhouse by a few reporters and was asked whom he liked on the team since Ordonez had been absent because of a knee injury.

"No one," he responded. "I hate everyone."



Wow, now that is harsh. Still, you just never know about stories like these. How come this stuff comes out now, after he is gone? I have never heard anything remotely like this.
I'm a Carlos Lee fan, but this story made me think of the time Carlos stood watching an apparent home run only to be thrown out at second after the ball bounced off the wall. I remember that Ozzie wasn't really happy with that incident. My hunch is that his teamates didn't like it either. Perhaps that incident was but one manifestation of the broader point made in the article.

Bobby Thigpen
12-15-2004, 09:23 AM
I have a pretty good suspicion that yes Joe Crede is already a complete jag-off.

Sox Mobile
12-15-2004, 09:28 AM
My main questions are thus: Why do we only hear about this now? Why have we heard nothing of it during his career with the Sox? Is it because Cowley didn't want to create any more clubhouse friction than there already was?
Cowley wrote an article after the "Frank wouldnt be a decoy on the bench" incident. It included KW's "I'm so mad" comments and some anti-Frank comments made by Valentin that got alot of our britches in a bunch.

He seems to enjoy this type of reporting. It appears he is a supporter of KW and felt the need to take some heat off him concerning this trade. I sincerely hope no one in the organization put a bug in Cowleys ear to write this.

Pretty counterproductive to air this laundry now. Like was stated before, if Lee retaliates, it will be Sox press we dont need/want or are really concerned with at this point. We have bigger fish to fry.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-15-2004, 09:28 AM
I have a pretty good suspicion that yes Joe Crede is already a complete jag-off.
haha, complete jag-off? Who knows. I question his desire and commitment.

SoxPark1
12-15-2004, 09:32 AM
Hey guys look! Carlos was ONE of the best players a young boy or man can look up to nowadays with all the steroid hype. I have had weekend season tix the lst 5 years and I always got them right along the third base line sec. 151 or so---so that I could mingle with C Lee. I loved it because he really took time out to give autographs chat and even give me a couple of balls. He was a sincere guy no matter what the press writes and he will be greatly missed by me. I don't care how many times he got picked off 3rd base last season.......I'll always miss his contagious smile. Carlos keep killing the Cubs man and this thread is for you baby.

#45

SoxPark1
12-15-2004, 09:34 AM
Also I go to University of Tampa and have to deal with no one caring about Carlos leaving which is equally as hard as him being dealt. Give me and email.....I;m coming home to Chitown soon.

dsilets@ut.edu
Dan

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 09:35 AM
I have a pretty good suspicion that yes Joe Crede is already a complete jag-off.
If that's true, he had better be careful. Crede doesn't have the numbers to be a complete jag-off.

Stars can act in any manner they choose. They're stars and they can get away with it. Being able to act like a complete jag-off is one of the fringe benefits of being a star.

Joe Crede needs to act reeeeal humble.
:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
12-15-2004, 09:35 AM
This is completely a non-surprise. If you've ever worked in an organization with more than 4 people in it, all the gossip gets dialed up to 11 just as soon as somebody leaves.

Geroge, in my experience many athletes indeed ARE selfish jerks. Many, if not most, of them have been pampered since they showed the first flashes of ability on youth athletic fields, regardless of their country of birth. Society (and not just American society) over-values athletic ability and kids who demonstrate it are treated like gods. This is magnified in countries like Panama. The ability to hit a baseball was Lee's ticket out of Panama, into the MLB and into the Church of Saint Sports Center. Other than money, that's all he cares about. That's all 95% of MLB players care about. This is unhealthy and leads all but the most well-adjusted kids to be, as you quoted, "selfish jerks." MLB is full of selfish jerks. The best teams are those who can put aside most of those selfish jerk tendencies for the good of the team.

George, the difference here is that many of us could see it reflected in Carlos' play: his baserunning gaffes, his general indolence in the field, his attempts to pull the ball and his long swings with runners on base and two outs. That's why it's not surprising to me. I'll miss his production but now he's an ex-Sox. I wish him the best, and hope he pounds the Cubs 19 times per year, but I hope he strikes out every time he plays the Sox in interleague play. I'll feel the same way about Buherle if and when he leaves.

StillMissOzzie
12-15-2004, 09:45 AM
As an interesting aside to this discussion, on MJ&H yesterday, Harry (the true blue sCrUB fan of the bunch) was saying that he had heard that C Lee was a clubhouse distraction. Mac called him on it, saying that he had never heard Harry mention anything like this before.

Part of this stems to what I consider a classic conflict of interest between the sports media and the athlete. The media need to play nice with the athletes in order to maintain access-to get them to do interviews, to get them to talk on their radio shows, etc. I believe that this precludes the media from telling everything they might like to. Of course, once they leave town, all bets are off. On the other hand, Harry may have just been reading the Cowley story and not have a first-hand clue about the Sox anyhow...

SMO
:gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 09:46 AM
Geroge, in my experience many athletes indeed ARE selfish jerks. ....
You're preaching to the choir, Frater. We allow them to be selfish jerks by creating websites devoted to talking about them, selfish jerks or not. For the digitally-challenged, there is 24-hour ESPN, 2, and News, Fox SportsNet, Comcast SportsNet, SportsCenter, and that flabby-faced buffoon Chris Berman to serve the same purpose.

The point is one group of selfish jerks is calling out one of their own as a selfish jerk. It's gossip, and it serves no positive purpose beside selling newspapers on behalf of small-minded reporters and their small-minded editors.
:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
12-15-2004, 09:53 AM
For the digitally-challenged, there is 24-hour ESPN, 2, and News, Fox SportsNet, Comcast SportsNet, SportsCenter, and that flabby-faced buffoon Chris Berman to serve the same purpose.

In Brazil, you can watch ESPN in Portuguese, English, Spanish and Japanese. :rolleyes:

SoxPark1
12-15-2004, 10:05 AM
where did my post of my tribute to carlos go.....? started with enuff about bringing carlos down...or something like that?

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 10:07 AM
It went in the thread about Lee being a bad apple.

Don't start new threads on topics already being covered.

R-E-A-D, then post. This place has too much traffic for everyone to start their own thread on the same topic.

bennyw41
12-15-2004, 10:23 AM
Doesn't seem fitting that most of us just look for a way bad mouth guys who are recently traded/released? Can't someone just go from the team and not cause a stir? This happens in two ways, either way positive or way negative.

Examples:

Everyone loved Olivo, then he gets traded and he is horribly dumb(catching a game). Everyone loves Lee, and then all of a sudden he gets traded and he is a clubhouse cancer.
Olivo gets traded, and all of a sudden he is the best catcher the sox have ever had. Lee gets traded and he was the only offensive production the sox have had in years.





Its just sour grapes for all of this stuff.

Bobby Thigpen
12-15-2004, 10:31 AM
Maybe the Sox are just very good at keeping this stuff quiet. Seattle seems to be pretty pissed at Miguel for many of the same reasons the Sox gave for getting rid of him. Same for Esteban and the Yankees. Actually very few people the Sox get rid of for "attitude problems" ever go on to any success with their new clubs.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 10:40 AM
Keith Foulke.

Sox Mobile
12-15-2004, 10:43 AM
Maybe the Sox are just very good at keeping this stuff quiet. Seattle seems to be pretty pissed at Miguel for many of the same reasons the Sox gave for getting rid of him. Same for Esteban and the Yankees. Actually very few people the Sox get rid of for "attitude problems" ever go on to any success with their new clubs.
I dont recall Olivo getting traded because of his attitude!

It seemed like a gut wrenching experience for KW to make that move at the time.

Bobby Thigpen
12-15-2004, 11:02 AM
Yes it was gut wrenching decision apparently, but one of the reasons that came out for trading him was his inability to call games, and what appeared to be a laziness when it came to working on certain aspects of the game. That is what came out after the trade, and this is what Seattle seems to be pissed about now. That was my only point.

TDog
12-15-2004, 11:06 AM
...
Lee was a selfish jerk.
Maggs was a selfish jerk.
Belle was a selfish jerk.
McDowell was a selfish jerk.
Allen was a selfish jerk.
Aparicio was a selfish jerk.
Collins was a selfish jerk.
etcetera etcetera...

Some of it is true, some of it isn't. 100 percent is based on somebody's recollections, never facts. ...Some players are completely NOT jerks. Nobody was happy about management dumping Don Pall in 1993. Everyone liked Rocky Biddle. But I was surprised in 1971 to read (Roland Hemond, I think, maybe Chuck Tanner say) Aparicio "wasn't good with young players."

Some of the players you mention, PHG, of course, were clearly well-documented jerks before they came to the Sox. Calling Belle a jerk in Cleveland would have been a compliment. Allen's problems in Philadelphia were numerous. The Phillies even publicly suspended him for missing a team plane in favor of a day at the racetrack. Collins' nickname (which he reportedly didn't like) was Cocky. Barry Bonds doesn't have to change teams to be considered a jerk.

But certainly some jerk talk is exaggerated. Considering how long the baseball season lasts and how much teammates have to be around each other, there is bound to be enough friction to fuel the he-was-a-jerk talk for just about anyone.

Ol' No. 2
12-15-2004, 11:14 AM
Come on, folks. Is there anyone who hasn't seen this with his own eyes? Is it possible no one noticed him trying to lift the ball into the seats all season long? The only exception is when he had his hitting streak going and he briefly cared more about getting a hit than jacking one into the stands. But when he got his hit in his first AB of the game, every subsequent AB he reverted to the usual. Look at his overall BA during the streak. Notice it was rather low for a hitting streak? And I can count on one hand the number of times I saw him run hard down to 1B. There was a lot more than one time he got thrown out because he wasn't hustling. Same in the field. Instead of running hard to cut off balls in the gap, he would circle behind and wait for the ball to come to him. No errors that way, but a lot of extra bases. And don't think other teams haven't noticed it, too. Maybe that's why KW couldn't drive a better deal.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 11:21 AM
Come on, folks. Is there anyone who hasn't seen this with his own eyes? Is it possible no one noticed him trying to lift the ball into the seats all season long? The only exception is when he had his hitting streak going and he briefly cared more about getting a hit than jacking one into the stands. But when he got his hit in his first AB of the game, every subsequent AB he reverted to the usual. Look at his overall BA during the streak. Notice it was rather low for a hitting streak? And I can count on one hand the number of times I saw him run hard down to 1B. There was a lot more than one time he got thrown out because he wasn't hustling. Same in the field. Instead of running hard to cut off balls in the gap, he would circle behind and wait for the ball to come to him. No errors that way, but a lot of extra bases. And don't think other teams haven't noticed it, too. Maybe that's why KW couldn't drive a better deal.
Actually I saw Lee hustle a lot out in left field last year. By all accounts he worked his ass off practicing to be a better defensive ballplayer, too. Lee was considered too prideful to let others poke fun at him, like the fans inside the HumpDome who were constantly razzing him. Michael Jordan had a similiar rap about his defense early in his career and used similiar motivation to become a very solid defensive player.

But this is the Sox so nobody short of Jesus Christ Himself is beyond second-guessing and back stabbing. So please continue...

voodoochile
12-15-2004, 11:24 AM
Actually I saw Lee hustle a lot out in left field last year. By all accounts he worked his ass off practicing to be a better defensive ballplayer, too. Lee was considered too prideful to let others poke fun at him, like the fans inside the HumpDome who were constantly razzing him. Michael Jordan had a similiar rap about his defense early in his career and used similiar motivation to become a very solid defensive player.

But this is the Sox so nobody short of Jesus Christ Himself is beyond second-guessing and back stabbing. So please continue...
Can this Jesus guy hit the curveball? :wink:

I don't know about the other stuff they are saying and I agree this team tends to let their ex-stars get torn down - when they aren't in the process of tearing down their current stars (see Thomas, Frank or Buehrle, Mark for examples).

But, I do agree with Ol#2. Lee spent the first two months of each of the last two seasons swinging for the fences before finally starting to act like a hitter and hit was pitched to him.

MIgrenade
12-15-2004, 11:26 AM
I don't care that Lee is gone and I'm certain that he dogged it sometimes in the field. But I think we just love to criticize everything a player does after they leave. I'll bet that "I hate everybody" comment was taken out of context. If I recall, Michael Jordan was criticized for his attitude after he retired and went to the Wizards.

Flight #24
12-15-2004, 11:30 AM
Can this Jesus guy hit the curveball? :wink:

I don't know about the other stuff they are saying and I agree this team tends to let their ex-stars get torn down - when they aren't in the process of tearing down their current stars (see Thomas, Frank or Buehrle, Mark for examples).

But, I do agree with Ol#2. Lee spent the first two months of each of the last two seasons swinging for the fences before finally starting to act like a hitter and hit was pitched to him.
Obviously they've torn down some guys in the past, but the CLee stuff seems a lot more like it's comments from teammates that are finally coming out than some sort of program by management to dump on Carlos, IMO. Even with maggs, the main comments have been in response to his salvos. The only ones initiated by the Sox were KW's september comments on his medical condition, not exactly talking about him being a bad/greedy guy.

jabrch
12-15-2004, 11:35 AM
I had no respect or Cowley's writing before this. I had no respect for Cowley as a man before this either. The good news is that he did nothing to change my opinions.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 11:36 AM
Can this Jesus guy hit the curveball? :wink:

I don't know about the other stuff they are saying and I agree this team tends to let their ex-stars get torn down - when they aren't in the process of tearing down their current stars (see Thomas, Frank or Buehrle, Mark for examples).

But, I do agree with Ol#2. Lee spent the first two months of each of the last two seasons swinging for the fences before finally starting to act like a hitter and hit was pitched to him.
I just find it repugnant how we Sox Fans immediately turn on any ballplayer... especially those that have a whisper campaign started against them from inside the clubhouse. It's bull****...

When we field nine guys who hit like Ty Cobb, I guarantee somebody will bring up the spiking incident for why he's a no good sonofabitch.

For the love of God... just win.

Palehose13
12-15-2004, 11:38 AM
I just find it repugnant how we Sox Fans immediately turn on any ballplayer... especially those that have a whisper campaign started against them from inside the clubhouse. It's bull****...

When we field nine guys who hit like Ty Cobb, I guarantee somebody will bring up the spiking incident for why he's a no good sonofabitch.

For the love of God... just win.
:cheers:

pudge
12-15-2004, 12:21 PM
This is completely a non-surprise. If you've ever worked in an organization with more than 4 people in it, all the gossip gets dialed up to 11 just as soon as somebody leaves.


Well said PHG, and let's not forget, if Cowley had published something like this during a season, the Sox (KW, players, etc.) would have been all over his ass. Now that CLee is gone, it's somewhat "safe" to publish this. So basically Cowley is a friggin coward for not coming out with this sooner. Or, maybe Kenny told him all this was off the record while Lee was on the team. Cowley may have called Kenny and said, "Hey, now that Lee is gone, can I print that stuff we talked about last season," and Kenny said sure. BUT, Kenny most likely would not say that, because he doesn't want to be known as someone who's peddling off bad character on other teams.

I don't know, the whole thing just reeks of Cowley. That last quote in the article was probably sarcasm by Lee.

ja1022
12-15-2004, 01:01 PM
That last quote in the article was probably sarcasm by Lee.
Amen. I can't believe anyone would say that on the record, if they really meant it. My guess is Lee said it with a smile or a smirk, and if it were posted here, it would be in teal. Sounds like Cowley may be one of those people that wouldn't recognize sarcasm if it smacked him upside his coconut.

And why no direct quotes from Buehrle? Was it hearsay?

And how many employees in any job, have perfect attitudes all the time?
Not real damning stuff from KW there.

Seems to me that stuff taken out of context can be spun any way you like.

By the way, if Joe Cowley reads this stuff, my prayers for a full and speedy recovery.

Bobby Thigpen
12-15-2004, 01:02 PM
I know nothing about Cowley or his abilities or past, but every sportswriter does this. It's just a matter of fact in today's sports world.

EDIT- see every UofI writer's treatment of Bill Self after he left for Kansas. While here he was Jesus. Now he's the second coming of Satan.

DMarte708
12-15-2004, 01:04 PM
I know nothing about Cowley or his abilities or past, but every sportswriter does this. It's just a matter of fact in today's sports world. Whether or not Cowley any intentions of settling old troubles with Lee, I'm glad some sportswriter has the balls to write this. Any in depth information concerning this ballclub is appreciated; even if it makes our organization look petty or foolish.

micpres
12-15-2004, 01:09 PM
Cowley did actually write a story like this during the season. It was at the end of September. No link available.

Nellie_Fox
12-15-2004, 01:14 PM
My guess is Lee said it with a smile or a smirk, and if it were posted here, it would be in teal. Sounds like Cowley may be one of those people that wouldn't recognize sarcasm if it smacked him upside his coconut.If it wasn't in teal, it doesn't count, dammit!

PaulDrake
12-15-2004, 01:21 PM
When having a particularly bad day at the office I have been known to mutter under my breath of course, "I hate everybody". Reading some of the posts here lately I have been muttering not so sweet nothings under my breath to some of you. Am I getting released or traded from WSI? I guess I should worry because I'm not nearly as good a poster as Carlos Lee is a hitter. Cowley's article reeks of spinmeistering at its worst. Additionally it is the journalistic equivalent of a sucker punch, followed by a knee in the groin. I still don't like this trade and I'm still convinced that it was made with short term bottom line considerations first and foremost. Yes Lee appeared undisciplined at the plate and on the basepaths at times. He worked hard to become an above average fielder, a fact that seems lost of many Sox fans. Those closer to the situation than I am have told me that he was one of the most fan friendly White Sox players in recent years. He will be missed. I'm hoping that Vizcaino can pull KWs chestnuts out of the fire here because I sure as hell don't expect much of Posednik.

Jjav829
12-15-2004, 01:25 PM
Am I getting released or traded from WSI?
Sorry to be the one to break this news, but we've secretly been shopping you around to various message boards. You just don't fit in with what we're trying to do in the future. There's a rookie poster on an Angels board that the staff here thinks would fit in tremendously. Nothing personal, it's just business...:D:

PaulDrake
12-15-2004, 01:30 PM
Sorry to be the one to break this news, but we've secretly been shopping you around to various message boards. You just don't fit in with what we're trying to do in the future. There's a rookie poster on an Angels board that the staff here thinks would fit in tremendously. Nothing personal, it's just business...:D: Southern California would be great. :)

Rocklive99
12-15-2004, 01:40 PM
Hmm, now I can see this as being real. As much as many people like the trade, I thought it was too weird to just trade away CLee for Podsednik and say that a refreshing was needed when there are other players that could be dealt, but now it makes sense. I hated the trade, but if the CLee stuff is true, and we get at least a #3 SP with the extra money, this could be one of KW's best moves.

Also, after this trade was announced on ESPNEWS, Steve Phillips was on talking about it, and he said there were rumors that CLee and Ozzie had a bad relationship

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 01:57 PM
Hmm, now I can see this as being real. As much as many people like the trade, I thought it was too weird to just trade away CLee for Podsednik and say that a refreshing was needed when there are other players that could be dealt, but now it makes sense. I hated the trade, but if the CLee stuff is true, and we get at least a #3 SP with the extra money, this could be one of KW's best moves.

Also, after this trade was announced on ESPNEWS, Steve Phillips was on talking about it, and he said there were rumors that CLee and Ozzie had a bad relationship Why would you give gossip and hearsay any validity? I mean Crowley wrote it and his editor printed it... but other than that, isn't this the same **** you could hear on any grade school playground?

:?:

balke
12-15-2004, 02:00 PM
When we lost Frank and Maggs last season, and DEFINITELY BEFORE THAT.... Lee was one of, if not the least selfish player we had. He got on base, he went for the hit streak, he got the White Sox much needed attention. When we was batting 3rd, he hit singles and Doubles. When he played DH, he hit doubles and dingers.


He could be a jerk, I don't know never met him. But his play was the best on the team, and the least selfish last year for a while.

NardiWasHere
12-15-2004, 02:18 PM
There was nothing in this article that suggested that this was coming from the organization...
If the article was indeed false, i in no way think its the organization "slinging mud", just a journalist who wants to stir something up
BUT... if this is true, it is extremely suprising to me... i always saw a little bit of 'laziness' on the field regarding Lee, but I imagined him to be a real cheerful, emotional guy who got along with others....

I don't know what to think

ma-gaga
12-15-2004, 02:28 PM
It's typical post-trade garbage reporting that all teams do to one extent or another. I've seen it after almost every single FA loss that teams have.

Columnists creating their own story. It's one of the things that truly bother me about sports "reporting".

34 Inch Stick
12-15-2004, 02:35 PM
Speaking of cheerfull personalities, maybe infrequent poster Joe Cowley will come on here to discuss his story with us.

soxtalker
12-15-2004, 03:05 PM
I read the column. It doesn't sound like it came from the organization. It sounds like bits and pieces that Cowley picked up during the season and chose not to emphasize during the season. I'm glad he reported it and that he waited until after the trade.

Now, I was not disappointed to see Carlos Lee go, so hearing something negative about him after the trade wouldn't generally bother me. However, I was very unhappy about the Miguel Olivo trade at the time it was made (and, to be honest, probably still wish it hadn't been made), and I did appreciate hearing the comments about his inability to call a game that leaked out after the trade.

I don't have to agree with these assessments, but at least they give me a better feel for what the organization is thinking and why they make moves.

Bobby Thigpen
12-15-2004, 03:05 PM
He got on base, he went for the hit streak, he got the White Sox much needed attention
I really doubt anywhere in CLee's mind was he thinking "Wow if I get another hit my team will end up on Sportscenter and the attention will be great for the organization". What the hell kind of thinking is that?

JoseCanseco6969
12-15-2004, 04:04 PM
A year ago I couldn't imagine life as a Sox fan without Magglio Ordonez. I mean the guy was the man, he was the best player we had. He had to stay in a Sox uniform for the rest of his career. Then the injury questions started rising. He denied a couple of extension offers. His comments started coming out. And now, in my eyes, he's a complete jagoff and I'm glad he's gone.

A few days ago Carlos Lee was our # 3 hitter. A solid .300 guy with power, speed, and somewhat above average fielding. In my eyes he was going to be with the Sox for at least 1-2 more years and hopefully be re-signed to a long-term deal. And then, a couple of days ago, he gets traded. And now his story is coming out. And just like Magglio, in my eyes, he turns out to be a complete jagoff and I'm glad he's gone.

Who's next to turn out to be a complete jagoff? Joe Crede? Aaron Rowand? Our mascot Southpaw? As bad as these stories are looking, I just hope that the new guys coming in are the complete opposites and actually do play team ball and don't bitch.
couldnt have said it better myself! I just got done taking my huge maggs picture frame down from my wall because i cant bear looking at that jagoff everyday.
Anyway, attitude is a huge factor when judging a player. Carlos has always seemed to be the type that could care less if the team won or lost. During that hitting streak, you could tell he was just trying to get a hit plain and simply without worrying about the time and situation he was in. Then, it seemed he would put it in cruise when he eventually got one. Maybe I'm being too harsh on him, but we all can agree that those dumb baserunning mistakes will not be missed. But after saying all this, I wish him well and how he does good in Milwaukee.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 04:13 PM
couldnt have said it better myself! I just got done taking my huge maggs picture frame down from my wall because i cant bear looking at that jagoff everyday.
Anyway, attitude is a huge factor when judging a player. Carlos has always seemed to be the type that could care less if the team won or lost. During that hitting streak, you could tell he was just trying to get a hit plain and simply without worrying about the time and situation he was in. Then, it seemed he would put it in cruise when he eventually got one. Maybe I'm being too harsh on him, but we all can agree that those dumb baserunning mistakes will not be missed. But after saying all this, I wish him well and how he does good in Milwaukee. Jeez... this thread really says a lot about the thinking of the average fan. It's not a flattering statement either.

It looks like Cowley has truly hit his mark... reaching the lowest common denominator.
:(:

"So other than that Mr. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

voodoochile
12-15-2004, 04:54 PM
Jeez... this thread really says a lot about the thinking of the average fan. It's not a flattering statement either.

It looks like Cowley has truly hit his mark... reaching the lowest common denominator.
:(:

"So other than that Mr. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
How many of these same posters would be doing the exact same thing Maggs did this year too?

Always easy to comdemn people until you are walking in their shoes...:?:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-15-2004, 05:08 PM
How many of these same posters would be doing the exact same thing Maggs did this year too?

Always easy to comdemn people until you are walking in their shoes...:?:
You mean going out of their way to say negative things about their ex-coworkers? And bad-mouth their old company after they've already left and they know the risk of serious repercussions is slim and none?

Sure, I'll venture a guess. A percentage with 3 digits.
:cool:

TornLabrum
12-15-2004, 08:43 PM
I don't care that Lee is gone and I'm certain that he dogged it sometimes in the field. But I think we just love to criticize everything a player does after they leave. I'll bet that "I hate everybody" comment was taken out of context. If I recall, Michael Jordan was criticized for his attitude after he retired and went to the Wizards.
I'm not going to say Lee didn't mean it, but I can imagine the reporter (no doubt Cowley) asking him who he likes or hangs around with and Lee, thinking that such stuff is none of his goddamn business says (tongue in cheek), "Nobody. I hate everybody." He may have said it, but did he mean it? Words in print can look a whole lot different than the way they are spoken, and I wouldn't put it past our old pal, Tail Gunner Joe Cowley to simply print the cold words when the meaning could have been totally different.

Rocklive99
12-15-2004, 09:09 PM
The part that bothered me was about when coaches would tell him to move in the OF and he wouldn't do it, and then a single or double would drop in. Of course, there is no proof to that, it could just be the writer trying to make his article more effective

idseer
12-15-2004, 09:22 PM
At one point near the end of the 2004 season, Lee was sitting in the clubhouse by a few reporters and was asked whom he liked on the team since Ordonez had been absent because of a knee injury.

"No one," he responded. "I hate everyone."



Wow, now that is harsh. Still, you just never know about stories like these. How come this stuff comes out now, after he is gone? I have never heard anything remotely like this.
just a small point, but .....
frankly, that response sounds like he was jerking the reporter's chain. maybe he had a smile on his face when he said it. how do we know?

champagne030
12-15-2004, 10:23 PM
The part that bothered me was about when coaches would tell him to move in the OF and he wouldn't do it, and then a single or double would drop in. Of course, there is no proof to that, it could just be the writer trying to make his article more effective
i don't know if it's the writer or the team, but i'll tell you that line is a load of bunk (btw - i've met MB several times and i've seen him having a great time with CL (off field, at home and on the road), so it's hard to believe he made that comment. i've sat in the front row of the left center bleachers for the last ten years and he looked into the dugout for OF positioning....and moved when directed to do so. he may have looked liked he didn't play balls out to some, but the attention and effort he displayed in the field during the past 2 1/2 years was nothing less than 100% (IMHO). he was brutal and had the attention span of a peanut when he first came up, but that changed. it seems that the "spinning of the glove" between pitches has never left him. i'm not on the bandwagon of saying this is a terrible trade. we got hosed, in terms of talent, but that's not what will make this trade good or bad. the money saved needs to be spent (hopefully on a SP), but if it's to give uncle jer an xmas bonus then shame on us for trusting KW's words....i don't want to wait 'til next june or july to spend this money.....if we don't spend it now (however it will improve the club) then they will have a legitimate excuse to not spend it later 'cause we will be out of the race.

BainesHOF
12-16-2004, 01:19 AM
My opinion of CLee has always been that he is a lazy ballplayer and loses his focus easily.
Exactly.

Sure, his tired act produced stats. In the end, though, in a baseball sense, he's a loser.

BainesHOF
12-16-2004, 01:23 AM
I'm a Carlos Lee fan, but this story made me think of the time Carlos stood watching an apparent home run only to be thrown out at second after the ball bounced off the wall. I remember that Ozzie wasn't really happy with that incident.
I'm sure Ozzie wasn't happy with the play, but if you remember, Ozzie didn't rip Carlos in the papers. He let him off the hook (one reason I think Ozzie is a bad manager.)

Being that Ozzie gave Lee a break, it was disappointing to first-hand hear Lee ripping Ozzie for not starting him for ONE game shortly after that. That's when I knew Lee was a jagbag.

BainesHOF
12-16-2004, 01:25 AM
The point is one group of selfish jerks is calling out one of their own as a selfish jerk. It's gossip, and it serves no positive purpose beside selling newspapers on behalf of small-minded reporters and their small-minded editors.
:cool:
Cowley's column was good reporting, timely and relevant.

BainesHOF
12-16-2004, 01:28 AM
Come on, folks. Is there anyone who hasn't seen this with his own eyes? Is it possible no one noticed him trying to lift the ball into the seats all season long? The only exception is when he had his hitting streak going and he briefly cared more about getting a hit than jacking one into the stands. But when he got his hit in his first AB of the game, every subsequent AB he reverted to the usual. Look at his overall BA during the streak. Notice it was rather low for a hitting streak? And I can count on one hand the number of times I saw him run hard down to 1B. There was a lot more than one time he got thrown out because he wasn't hustling. Same in the field. Instead of running hard to cut off balls in the gap, he would circle behind and wait for the ball to come to him. No errors that way, but a lot of extra bases. And don't think other teams haven't noticed it, too. Maybe that's why KW couldn't drive a better deal.
You are correct sir on all counts.

Baines2Raines
12-16-2004, 01:54 AM
Cowley's column was good reporting, timely and relevant.
Why didn't he report this DURING the season? Why do it now after the guy is traded? If MB has a problem with Carlos why not talk to him man to man? Instead of through the papers? That's pretty gutless.

DMarte708
12-16-2004, 02:42 AM
Why didn't he report this DURING the season? Why do it now after the guy is traded? If MB has a problem with Carlos why not talk to him man to man? Instead of through the papers? That's pretty gutless.
That would be like telling Miguel Olivo the White Sox organization believed he called a bad game.

It's rather obvious to me why this information was withheld until now. When competing for a divisional title, a journalist looking to withhold his job reporting on the White Sox would be best served to ignore any problems within the clubhouse.

Besides maintaining clubhouse harmony, perhaps the timely release of this article was to assure fans this trade was necessary. Whether or not outside sources (Sox PR department) played a role in approving this article is speculation on my behalf.

PaulDrake
12-16-2004, 09:14 AM
I still don't understand. Jay Mariotti is the journalistic antichrist on this and every other WS message board. Cowley tries to throw Carlos under the bus and in a most underhanded way and it's no big deal. You read all these posts and you think Carlos is borderline retarded (I won't use the PC term) and couldn't catch a cold in the field. He is in fact a very good hitter, who made himself a decent outfielder through hard work. Even if you like this trade, I don't see how you could like the tone or the content of this article, then criticize Mariotti. He's a phony front runner to be sure, but he gets it right about the Sox sometimes. Throw Carlos under the bus and get all excited about the Sox acquisitions this off season. Applaud this transparent hatchet job of an article. I don't get it.

tstrike2000
12-16-2004, 02:59 PM
haha, complete jag-off? Who knows. I question his desire and commitment.
I can understand that. Crede seems like he lacks desire. So ofen at the plate he looks like deer caught in headlights, plus has the longest swing of anyone I've seen on the Sox.

Baines2Raines
12-16-2004, 03:05 PM
That would be like telling Miguel Olivo the White Sox organization believed he called a bad game.

It's rather obvious to me why this information was withheld until now. When competing for a divisional title, a journalist looking to withhold his job reporting on the White Sox would be best served to ignore any problems within the clubhouse.

Besides maintaining clubhouse harmony, perhaps the timely release of this article was to assure fans this trade was necessary. Whether or not outside sources (Sox PR department) played a role in approving this article is speculation on my behalf.
Are you kidding me? The point for newspapers is to SELL PAPERS. This story would be ideal. Do you think NY papers would keep this type of story underwraps? Hell they invented stories that ARod hated Jeter.

Give me a break. MB is gutless for not bringing this to Carlos or at least having a team meeting to air out any grips.

Flight #24
12-16-2004, 03:22 PM
Are you kidding me? The point for newspapers is to SELL PAPERS. This story would be ideal. Do you think NY papers would keep this type of story underwraps? Hell they invented stories that ARod hated Jeter.

Give me a break. MB is gutless for not bringing this to Carlos or at least having a team meeting to air out any grips.
And we know MB didn't talk to Carlos because.......

It certainly seems from the article that the coaching staff has had numerous discussions with him, so I'd bet player comments were there as well or were deemed unlikely to have any positive impact.

In any case, I doubt highly that this was a serious problem, more of an annoyance/frustration that he occasionally cost the team then something that divided the clubhouse ala Sammy's boombox.

JKryl
12-16-2004, 10:04 PM
I can understand why none of the crappy behavior attributed to Carlos was made public before this, you protect your own just in case he comes back next year. If the behavior storys are true, I'm sure we'll hear a lot about it from the Cheesehead papers in the near future as Carlos lets rip. On the other hand, if he keeps quiet, maybe it's a line fed to us by KW to ease the transition. We'll see.

JKryl
12-16-2004, 10:06 PM
I can understand that. Crede seems like he lacks desire. So ofen at the plate he looks like deer caught in headlights, plus has the longest swing of anyone I've seen on the Sox.
Hmmm, is it lack of desire, or fear. Or, it could just be the realization that he came up two years too early.

Jurr
12-16-2004, 10:10 PM
Hmmm, is it lack of desire, or fear. Or, it could just be the realization that he came up two years too early.I don't think he came up too early. Hell, he had been rotting in the minors forever! Well, actually he wasn't rotting..he was all-world in AAA. In baseball, when guys are just absolutely lost during a period (sometimes as long as a season), they just look like they don't care. Different guys handle it different ways. Carl is going to cuss and get really pissed when he has a bad AB. Crede was just so overwhelmed in a funk that he looked like he didn't care. Actually, too much desire is what gets a lot of 'em. Those guys work hard to get things right, study up, and then still don't have an answer behind the plate. It's a shame. Look at Paulie during the '03 season. It's funny how a guy can look so dumbfounded by hitting and then turn around and excel.

flo-B-flo
12-16-2004, 10:55 PM
Carlos lee was my favorite playing on the sox, but he did always seem selfish to me without inside information. I don't doubt the validity of these comments at all. Gee a self important ass. Thinking only of himself and frig the team. I never thought I'd see it again. El Caballo the ball player offers good memories. Apparently, Carlos the teammate was quite the "Leon".

flo-B-flo
12-16-2004, 11:03 PM
Some players are completely NOT jerks. Nobody was happy about management dumping Don Pall in 1993. Everyone liked Rocky Biddle. But I was surprised in 1971 to read (Roland Hemond, I think, maybe Chuck Tanner say) Aparicio "wasn't good with young players."

Some of the players you mention, PHG, of course, were clearly well-documented jerks before they came to the Sox. Calling Belle a jerk in Cleveland would have been a compliment. Allen's problems in Philadelphia were numerous. The Phillies even publicly suspended him for missing a team plane in favor of a day at the racetrack. Collins' nickname (which he reportedly didn't like) was Cocky. Barry Bonds doesn't have to change teams to be considered a jerk.

But certainly some jerk talk is exaggerated. Considering how long the baseball season lasts and how much teammates have to be around each other, there is bound to be enough friction to fuel the he-was-a-jerk talk for just about anyone. I remember reading about this. I was pissed. Louie won't help the young guys? "They" are smearing him. It was true.

MeanFish
12-17-2004, 01:00 AM
I don't think he came up too early. Hell, he had been rotting in the minors forever! Well, actually he wasn't rotting..he was all-world in AAA. In baseball, when guys are just absolutely lost during a period (sometimes as long as a season), they just look like they don't care. Different guys handle it different ways. Carl is going to cuss and get really pissed when he has a bad AB. Crede was just so overwhelmed in a funk that he looked like he didn't care. Actually, too much desire is what gets a lot of 'em. Those guys work hard to get things right, study up, and then still don't have an answer behind the plate. It's a shame. Look at Paulie during the '03 season. It's funny how a guy can look so dumbfounded by hitting and then turn around and excel.
That's exactly right. Another thing about Crede: that calm demeanor he has could very well what makes him so dangerous in pressure situations. I think he's got this sort of zen thing about him, which could be very good. As you mentioned, it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care.