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Jerome
12-14-2004, 04:28 PM
Today in the Cubune, Kenny Williams said that Rowand, Dye, and Podsednik would give the Sox the "best defensive outfield we've had in a long time."

To this, I thought to myself WHO CARES?

Defense in the infield is one thing. Especially when you don't have a lot of strikeout pitchers. But defense in the outfield is probably the most overrated thing in baseball. Sure, it's great to see Beltran jump up and take away a home run on web gems, but over the course of a 162 game season, does spectacular defense in the OF really make a huge difference on a WS team?

Did Boston win last year because of their defense? Did Montreal suck last year because of their defense? Did the White Sox come up short to the Twins last year because of our defense?

How is defense in the outfield more important than getting offensive production out of our OF? With Maggs gone, it was all the more the important for the rest of the guys to pick up the slack. Now we are losing the production of Maggs AND Lee?

Will Podsdnik's 'great' defense make up that?

Jurr
12-14-2004, 04:36 PM
I'm sorry, but the topic of this thread is clearly uneducated baseball talk.
Look at an outfield like the Twins had. Torii Hunter, Jaque Jones, and Lew Ford/Shannon Stewart took NUMEROUS runs away from teams by their play in the outfield. With a good defensive outfield, you can take away extra base hits into the gap, you can hold runners at bases with better angles on a ball or quicker jumps on base hits, and you can also take away homers (the most non-routine example.)

You may say that Carlos Lee didn't have a high number of errors. Yes, but that is a testament to the fact that he didn't get to a lot of balls that another speedier outfielder could've tracked down. A better defender in left (most likely Rowand) is going to be HUGE out there. Also, Aaron's accurate arm is going to keep a lot of runners honest at second on a base hit. Aaron can run up on many hits and fire a rope to the plate and keep those guys muzzled at third. That ends up saving a LOT of runs over the course of a season.

Adding that bullpen plus the defense in the outfield will be huge for us.

OEO Magglio
12-14-2004, 04:39 PM
Yes, a good defensive outfield could be really nice. We have a lot of range out there now and that could cut down a lot of extra runs that pitchers would normally let up. The range of Pods and Rowand and then the arms of Dye and Rowand are going to save our pitchers a lot of runs this year, imo.

Frater Perdurabo
12-14-2004, 04:42 PM
Good OF defense sometimes turns hits into outs. It also can turn extra-base hits into harmless singles. Reducing the number of bases surrendered will result in opponents scoring fewer runs over the course of a season. Preventing the opposition from scoring a run is as good as scoring a run yourself.

Also, good defense helps the Sox pitchers. Starters will throw fewer pitches and go deeper into games. Relievers will enter games later, be called upon less frequently, be less exposed to opposing hitters and will pitch better as well.

Defense may be hard to quantify (which is why FOBB don't care about it), but it's an integral part of a winning team.

Ol' No. 2
12-14-2004, 04:47 PM
Good OF defense sometimes turns hits into outs. It also can turn extra-base hits into harmless singles. Reducing the number of bases surrendered will result in opponents scoring fewer runs over the course of a season. Preventing the opposition from scoring a run is as good as scoring a run yourself.

Also, good defense helps the Sox pitchers. Starters will throw fewer pitches and go deeper into games. Relievers will enter games later, be called upon less frequently, be less exposed to opposing hitters and will pitch better as well.

Defense may be hard to quantify (which is why FOBB don't care about it), but it's an integral part of a winning team.People often judge outfielders by how many balls they catch. What never gets mentioned is cutting off balls in the gaps and stopping runners from taking extra bases. There's a huge difference if you can stop a runner from going 1st to 3rd on a single and make him stop at 2nd. This, IMO, was the weakest part of Lee's defense. I can't count the number of times I've seen runners go from first to third on a lazy single to left. Good OF defense doesn't show up in errors made.

Baby Fisk
12-14-2004, 04:54 PM
This, IMO, was the weakest part of Lee's defense. I can't count the number of times I've seen runners go from first to third on a lazy single to left. Good OF defense doesn't show up in errors made.Ha, the first thing I thought of was exactly what you described. Lee also had some kind of stickum or pine tar all over the inside of his glove -- it seemed to take him an extra 3 or 4 maddening seconds to peel the ball out of his glove every time it went in there. :angry:

SouthSide_HitMen
12-14-2004, 06:40 PM
I'm sorry, but the topic of this thread is clearly uneducated baseball talk.
Look at an outfield like the Twins had. Torii Hunter, Jaque Jones, and Lew Ford/Shannon Stewart took NUMEROUS runs away from teams by their play in the outfield. With a good defensive outfield, you can take away extra base hits into the gap, you can hold runners at bases with better angles on a ball or quicker jumps on base hits, and you can also take away homers (the most non-routine example.)

You may say that Carlos Lee didn't have a high number of errors. Yes, but that is a testament to the fact that he didn't get to a lot of balls that another speedier outfielder could've tracked down. A better defender in left (most likely Rowand) is going to be HUGE out there. Also, Aaron's accurate arm is going to keep a lot of runners honest at second on a base hit. Aaron can run up on many hits and fire a rope to the plate and keep those guys muzzled at third. That ends up saving a LOT of runs over the course of a season.

Adding that bullpen plus the defense in the outfield will be huge for us.
Defense would help if we played in the dimensions of the original old park - 360s down the line / 440 CF. New park not so much. Plus the Twins outfielders quoted above (and pretty much every other outfield in MLB) will outhit our OF above and beyond any defensive advantage assumed / obtained.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-14-2004, 06:50 PM
In baseball, defense is spelled P-I-T-C-H-I-N-G.

An outfielder that can't get on base or hit the ball a long, long way isn't very valuable. They simply don't touch the ball often enough to make their gloves that important.

And if Kenny thinks his new outfield is a defensive upgrade, it's mostly because Aaron Rowand won't be pretending to be a centerfielder anymore.

Jjav829
12-14-2004, 06:55 PM
And if Kenny thinks his new outfield is a defensive upgrade, it's mostly because Aaron Rowand won't be pretending to be a centerfielder anymore.He should be because he's a better centerfielder than Scott Podsednik.

FWIW, Kenny mentioned on ESPN1000 in response to the concerns about Podsednik's defense, that Pods will learn some things about defense from Aaron Rowand.

voodoochile
12-14-2004, 06:58 PM
Defense would help if we played in the dimensions of the original old park - 360s down the line / 440 CF. New park not so much. Plus the Twins outfielders quoted above (and pretty much every other outfield in MLB) will outhit our OF above and beyond any defensive advantage assumed / obtained.
Exactly. Expect to see Carl Everett as the LF the minute Frank is healthy enough to play everyday as the DH. Whether it's Pods or Rowand in CF thereafter will depend on which one is playing better.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-14-2004, 06:58 PM
He should be because he's a better centerfielder than Scott Podsednik.
Okay, so we lose a leftfielder who didn't make a single error all last season with an above-average range factor, add another guy who can't play center field even as well as Aaron Rowand, and now we're to believe this is an improved defensive outfield?

How? Are we saying Dye is that much better than Magglio -- assuming neither is on the DL?

voodoochile
12-14-2004, 07:00 PM
Okay, so we lose a leftfielder who didn't make a single error all last season with an above-average range factor, add another guy who can't play center field even as well as Aaron Rowand, and now we're to believe this is an improved defensive outfield?

How? Are we saying Dye is that much better than Magglio -- assuming neither is on the DL?
Well in theory either Rowand or Pods is better in LF than Lee - even more range and better angles to gappers reslting in less extra base hits too.

OEO Magglio
12-14-2004, 07:02 PM
Exactly. Expect to see Carl Everett as the LF the minute Frank is healthy enough to play everyday as the DH. Whether it's Pods or Rowand in CF thereafter will depend on which one is playing better.
No f'n way.

Jjav829
12-14-2004, 07:02 PM
Okay, so we lose a leftfielder who didn't make a single error all last season with an above-average range factor, add another guy who can't play center field even as well as Aaron Rowand, and now we're to believe this is an improved defensive outfield?

How? Are we saying Dye is that much better than Magglio -- assuming neither is on the DL?
I'd say Dye is an upgrade over Maggs. Rowand has improved defensively and while Podsednik is an average centerfielder, his range in left is an upgrade over Carlos, while his arm won't be as exposed in left. I'd say our outfield defense is improved. How much better that makes this team, I don't know. It doesn't hurt to have better defense in the outfield.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-14-2004, 07:03 PM
Well in theory either Rowand or Pods is better in LF than Lee - even more range and better angles to gappers reslting in less extra base hits too. Hmm.... me thinks nobody will ever confuse our 2005 outfield with the likes of Cromartie, Valentine, and Dawson on the '78 Expos.

Bla!

:cool:

voodoochile
12-14-2004, 07:08 PM
Hmm.... me thinks nobody will ever confuse our 2005 outfield with the likes of Cromartie, Valentine, and Dawson on the '78 Expos.

Bla!

:cool: Oh I agree and I am holding out hope that Everett and Frank will be healthy enough this season to force either Pods or Rowand to the bench depending on what the teams needs are and which one is playing better. Heck if all 4 OF are on fire, one of them will make great tradebait when the Sox decide to upgrade their pitching staff in June or July.

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't think our OF defense will be as good as the aforementioned Jones, Hunter, Stewert trio for the Twinkies.

Rocklive99
12-14-2004, 08:02 PM
The real question to me is how does KW continue to say that this is our best defensive outfield? Our infield defense has been the notorious joke around the league. Plus, what is with the downplaying of the D of Maggs and CLee? Maggs is solid, misplays a couple balls, but none that really hurt, and Carlos Lee hugely improved, made some bigtime plays, and was the subject of a Golden Glove snub across MLB Message Boards this offseason. The knock on Carlos is his arm, and it sounds like Podsednik has the same problem if not worse. To top it off, MJH got tons of emails from Wisconsin saying the Podsednik misplayed a bunch of balls and his defense is overrated.