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WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2004, 01:09 PM
...like we have a BETTER team after this trade? We actually have a leadoff man now. His stats last year were poor last year, but we can put the sophomore slump into play. Taking a look at our new lineup...

1) Posednik - CF
2) Rowand - LF
3) Konerko - 1B
4) Thomas - DH
5) Dye - RF
6) Uribe - SS
7) Crede - 3B
8) Davis - C
9) Harris - 2B

...we still might pick someone up to play 2B. Looking at that lineup, we finally have a leadoff man, a true # 2, a powerful 3, and the rest of the lineup is up for grabs but it looks dependable.
Can you imagine Posednik getting on base and almost everytime stealing 2nd. Rowand connects with a a base-hit into right-center, Posednik comes around to score; or Rowand grounds out to 2nd moving Posednik to 3rd; or Rowand simply bunts Posednik to 3rd. No need for Rowand to sacrifice Posednik from 1st to 2nd because he'll almost always steal it.
All Konerko would have to do is hope for solid contact and get Posednik in. This guy could change our lineup completely. Konerko will need somewhat of a repeat from last year and an increase in his BA and OBP wouldn't hurt.
With Harris batting 9th, if he can hit around .270, him and Posednik hitting back-to-back can be very entertaining.
Thomas and Dye would be very serviceable if they can perform just well enough. For Thomas, that means hitting over .275, smacking around 30 HRs, driving in 100+, keeping his OBP around .400, but most importantly, staying healthy.
Dye will hopefully get his BA around .300, hit between 20-25 HRs, and drive in around 90 RBIs.
If Uribe can repeat last year if not build on it, wonderful.
Crede needs to do a lot more than last year. His clutch hitting can stay, but his batting average and OBP are sad. If he can hit over .260 and keep his OBP over .320 while cutting down on the strikeouts and popflies in keep situations, I'd be happy. But that's a big if.
Big Ben is still a work in-progress and no one knows what he has to offer. The Sox think he's a good hitter while the rest of baseball thinks he's a backup at best. I see potential in him and hope he can hit over .250, hit 7-10 HRs, and drive in over 60. OBP will be the key with this guy.

Another thing this move did was free up close to $5.5 million and there is still a player to be named later that we would acquire from Milwaukee (more than likely a decent prospect and Milwaukee has a few stud spects). With that $5.5 million, KW can now beg and plead for JR to give him an extra $1.5-$2.5 million so that Matt Clement can dawn the black and white.

Lastly, with the acquisition of Luis Vizcaino, I honestly think we have the best bullpen in recent memory (franchise wise). With Shingo closing, Dustin Hermanson, Luis Vizcaino, Damaso Marte, Cliff Politte, Jon Adkins, and probably Neal Cotts filling out the rest of the bullpen, I love this bullpen. I caught some Cub/Brewer games, and everytime Vizcaino came in the game with the lead, Steve Stone made the audience aware that the Cubs were in trouble facing this guy because he is a stopper.

In the end, however, with all these moves taking place, our biggest hole and problem is still there; starting pitching. We have a # 1 (Mark Buehrle/Freddy Garcia) and a # 2 (the other of the first 2), we have a # 4 (Jose Contreras) and we have a # 5 (Jon Garland). We need a # 3. And this is Matt Clement's spot in the rotation. Make it happen KW.

Palehose13
12-14-2004, 01:14 PM
No. I think we are a better team now. CLee is definitely the best player in the whole deal, but I do think now the Sox are a better team.

MUsoxfan
12-14-2004, 01:14 PM
No. I think we are a better team now. CLee is definitely the best player in the whole deal, but I do think now the Sox are a better team.
I agree

Tragg
12-14-2004, 01:15 PM
I just can't agree with a straight face that exchanging lee for posednik makes our lineup better; Lee is the superior player in all categories except stolen bases.

MRKARNO
12-14-2004, 01:16 PM
We're a better team if Podsednik posts higher than a .350 OBP and Kenny signs us Odalis/Clement

Baby Fisk
12-14-2004, 01:17 PM
We are a better team once that brand spankin new STARTING PITCHER gets signed! :bandance:

Bobby Thigpen
12-14-2004, 01:20 PM
Frank will probably bat 3rd with PK fourth.

Tragg
12-14-2004, 01:23 PM
We're a better team if Podsednik posts higher than a .350 OBP and Kenny signs us Odalis/Clement
I won't disagree with that

Ol' No. 2
12-14-2004, 01:23 PM
Frank will probably bat 3rd with PK fourth.Until Thomas returns, who do you figure for 3-4-5? I don't see Everett hitting 3rd. Maybe Dye-Konerko-Everett? At least then you put the switch hitter where he can protect the other two.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2004, 01:23 PM
Frank will probably bat 3rd with PK fourth.

I hope not, he's more of a walk than he is a hit. Konerko is better with runners on-base. There maybe some stats that prove that statement WRONG, but I feel that way.

Speaking of picking up Clement/Perez, i posted this under the "Simple; Trade Contreras" thread and thought it would be useful here also...

Here's an idea that everyone is overlooking;

Before you trade Jose Contreras, work out deals with Matt Clement and Odalis Perez. Give Clement $8 mill per for 2 or 3 years. Give Perez $6 mill per for 3 years.

Now, turn around and trade Jose Contreras to someone who desperately needs a pitcher (possibly Anaheim, Toronto, Los Angeles, St. Louis, Houston, etc.) and deal him for a solid catcher or a player that can fill any hole we have.

Remember that the Yankees gave us cash to cover some of Contreras' contract. However, Contreras still is owed $8 mill per, so we'd save $8 mill AND keep the cash the Yankees gave us last year (which was probably enough to cover his remaining salary last year).

After the Carlos Lee trade and this Contreras deal, we have freed up $13.5 mill (probably less with the guy we pick up for Contreras). Clement's $8 mill per + Perez's $6 mill per = $14 mill per. JR would be asked to dish out an extra $1-$2 mill. I doubt he would say no if he knew it would lead to the following rotation;

1) Buehrle
2) Garcia
3) Perez
4) Clement
5) Garland

Affordable, dependable, and quite possibly the best rotation in the AL?

Jurr
12-14-2004, 01:23 PM
I just can't agree with a straight face that exchanging lee for posednik makes our lineup better; Lee is the superior player in all categories except stolen bases.You're right as far as straight up talent for talent at that one position. But, picking up a last stabilizing piece in the bullpen on top of the swap pushes this deal in favor of the Sox.

Chicago83
12-14-2004, 01:25 PM
We are a better team once that brand spankin new STARTING PITCHER gets signed! :bandance:
Right on. If we don't sign a quality pitcher with the money saved then this trade only makes our team much worse.

BRDSR
12-14-2004, 01:26 PM
84,

I don't disagree with you at all man. I think the swap between Lee and Podsednik will result in 20 or 30 fewer runs scored by our offense over the long run, but the addition of Vizcaino will go a long ways to evening that out. Along with saving about 6 million to hopefully be used on another pitcher, the team looks a lot better.

One thing I'd like to point out is that Podsednik's stolen bases may go down next year. The reason is that you don't steal bases with speed so much as stealing off of the pitcher. The reason Podsednik's SBs went up between 03 and 04 even though his OBP went down is that he knew the pitchers MUCH better after being in the league a full year. Now he has to learn entirely new pitchers in a new league. While AL pitchers are generally worse at holding runners, I hope no one is too disappointed if his SBs aren't that great, especially the first half or so of the 05 season.

Another thing to consider when talking about Podsednik's speed is his total bases compared to Carlos Lee. Last year Lee hit for 310 total bases while Podsednik hit for 233. Adding 70 stolen bases, Podsednik has 303, and adding 11 for Lee, he has 321. If those extra total bases were factored into their respective slugging percentages they would be much more equal.
In general, I agree with you 100%. I applaud KW on this trade.

miker
12-14-2004, 01:28 PM
From various posts, the popular theory seems to be that most of the money not going to C. Lee will be spent on something else, notably a starter, which will make everything okay. Is this wishful thinking? Since when is JR going to spend money to make us happy?

We've gone from "waiting for the 3-run homer" team to "we MIGHT get on and steal a base" team. Knowing recent White Sox history, I am reluctant to celebrate this as an improvement -- just a change.

Maybe the potential "inspired play of the new-look scrappy White Sox" may change my mind, but right now I can't find anything positive to say or think.

Will Rowand and Konerko repeat their good offensive seasons?

Will Frank ever be healthy enough to help?

Do we really have major league catching?

Will Harris and Crede learn to hit?

Outside Buehrle and Garcia, do we really have consistent starters?

Are Buehrle and Garcia really going to step up?

Aren't we due for another bullpen blow-up?

I used to be an optimist, and now I can't find anything positive. Every position on this team has me thinking worse-case scenario.

Please White Sox fans, keep trying to convince me!:?:

hold2dibber
12-14-2004, 01:28 PM
We're a better team if Podsednik posts higher than a .350 OBP and Kenny signs us Odalis/Clement
BINGO! (I'd also be okay with the deal if the PTBNL is Ginter, but I hold out little hope that that is the case.)

T-Bag
12-14-2004, 01:28 PM
For sure better IF we sign another SP.
Worse if we don't.

Bobby Thigpen
12-14-2004, 01:29 PM
I could very well see Dye-PK-Everett until Frank is ready. And as far as Frank's walks that is why I would bat him in front of PK- so PK can have runners on in front of him.

SoxxoS
12-14-2004, 01:30 PM
We're a better team if Podsednik posts higher than a .350 OBP and Kenny signs us Odalis/Clement
I think Vizcaino has to be added in this conclusion...he is going to be a intricial part of this bullpen. As I said before, anything relegating Adkins to his rightful role (MOP UP) is A-OK by me...

Although I am nervous b/c Ozzie puts in Adkins like he is Trevor Hoffman.

Chicago83
12-14-2004, 01:34 PM
Until Thomas returns, who do you figure for 3-4-5? I don't see Everett hitting 3rd. Maybe Dye-Konerko-Everett? At least then you put the switch hitter where he can protect the other two.
Thats the major problem with this trade, we have no one who can play that 3 spot. Dye, Konerko, and Everett are all good hitters but I see them more as 4-5-6, than 3-4-5. Thomas is definitely our 3 guy if he comes back healthy, but until then I think we are going to miss Lee.

If Rowand comes back with a season like last year then I wouldn't mind seeing a lineup of...

LF Pod
SS Uribe
CF Rowand
1B Konerko
RF Dye
DH Everett
3B Crede
2B Harris
C Davis

Then when Thomas comes back put rowand at 2 and Thomas at 3.

mactheknife
12-14-2004, 01:38 PM
We're a better team if Podsednik posts higher than a .350 OBP and Kenny signs us Odalis/Clement
exactly.

maurice
12-14-2004, 01:40 PM
LF Pod
SS Uribe
CF Rowand
1B Konerko
RF Dye
DH Everett
3B Crede
2B Harris
C Davis

Then when Thomas comes back put rowand at 2 and Thomas at 3.
This is what I expect to see, though Ozzie may move Harris into Uribe or Davis' spot. Ozzie likes to have a MIF batting second (probably from his years of being denied a top-of-the-order spot while posting crappy OBPs). Recall his reluctance to drop Valentin from the two hole last season.

DaleJRFan
12-14-2004, 01:44 PM
Thats the major problem with this trade, we have no one who can play that 3 spot. Dye, Konerko, and Everett are all good hitters but I see them more as 4-5-6, than 3-4-5. Thomas is definitely our 3 guy if he comes back healthy, but until then I think we are going to miss Lee.

If Rowand comes back with a season like last year then I wouldn't mind seeing a lineup of...

LF Pod
SS Uribe
CF Rowand
1B Konerko
RF Dye
DH Everett
3B Crede
2B Harris
C Davis

Then when Thomas comes back put rowand at 2 and Thomas at 3.
I completely agree with this assessment.