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ukigdog
12-14-2004, 02:47 AM
With all of the complaining of the trade going on, I definitley agree with KW on this one!!

First off, the White Sox are always looked upon being in a big market city and thus should be big market spenders. However when taking a look at our situation, we split the market with the Cubs. Actually there are more Cubs fans then Sox in our city if we like it or not. For this reason we dont sell out every game like the Cubs do. So, yes we are in a large market but only get about 30 percent of it if that.

An example of the sox is simply like the Mets. The Mets share the city with the Yankees. Granted, the Mets have a higher payroll than the White Sox, however New York is a larger city than Chicago, and they have a bigger fan base.

So we are in a market where we are on a budget of what many call a "small market" team. I wouldnt say that we are even at that either. A small market team is the Royals or Brewers or Twins with 50 million or less payroll. News Flash for many out there , our payroll will be at 70-75 million --> not quite that of the true small market teams.

Given our strict budget in 2003, KW did what he could to field a winning team. Fans were promised that a payroll increase would occur if attendance increased and attendance increased, and guess what?? Our budget is going to increase from 60-65 million to 70-75 million as we were promised.

Now looking onto 2005. For the last five seasons we have gone into the season with a bopping tag team of Frank, Maggs, Konerko, CLee. That combination won us a whoppin 1 Division titles. The one year that this mentality did any kind of noise was in 2000 when we were swept away by the wild card team in the playoffs.

So when something doesnt work 4 years in a row, what do you do, leave it the same?? NO, you change it. When you look at teams that had a winning team from a so called small market budget, what do you see -- speed, defense, pitching!!! Take a look at the Florida Marlins, or the Twins every year. They are small budget players, but field speed, pitching and defense to win.

The only teams out there that can get away with the big boppers are those that have no limit on budget-- yankees, red sox, etc. That is the difference between the white sox the last four years and yankees,redsox. That is the reason the Sox coudnt win the last four years. They had their boppers, but were short in pitching and bullpen where the red sox and yankees spent alot of money.

In other words, what i am saying is that our bopping teams would have worked and won if we went out and solidified our starters and releivers by spending like the yanks and red sox. We didnt have that money! So KW has learned that the White Sox cannot get by with this anymore and has refocused the Sox to a winning combination.

I think that if the White Sox continue the way they are this offseason we will have a division winner in no time. The Management has finally realized that we need to go with speed, defense, and pitching.

Here is something to think about:

Last season if you think about it since we were without frank, maggs for almost all of the season our lineup looked like this for the most part of the season:

Rowand - Good hitter, good average, speed, power
Uribe - speed
Lee - Power, RBIs
Konerko - Power, RBIs
Everett
Gload
Crede
Davis
Willie

Essentially, this is a team with a good leadoff hitter, that would be more effective hitting at no. 2 spot, and two power hitters, with average hitters rounding out the lineup. This lineup got us an above .500 record!!!

Now looking at the team we will be fielding this year:

Podsednik - True leadoff hitter, speed, SB
Rowand - Prototype no. 2 hitter
Thomas - HR, Power
Dye - coming from PITCHERS PARK (Power, HR, RBI)
Konerko - Power, HR, RBI
Uribe
Crede
Davis
Willie

Essentially, this lineup is faster, better OPS, while haveing potentially 3 power hitters and not 2 like last year!

Now, remember the pitching rotation at the beginning of last year and bullpen?

Loaiza
Buehrle
Garland
Schoeneweiss
Wright

Adkins
Cotts
Politte
Mike Jackson
Marte
Shingo

And now....

Garcia
Buehrle
FA #3
Contreras
Garland

Cotts
Pollite
Hermanson
Vizcaino
Marte
Shingo

I dont need to say how much of improvement we have here.

In the end, I think that KW has done an extremely excellent job considering the budget restraints he has to deal with. Instead of blowing up at him we should sit back and look at the big picture.

Yes we are in a big market, but we dont have the resources of some of the big market teams for we are a minority in chicago due to the Cubs! We do spend more money than most small market teams however as it has been proven in that we are gonna put out 70 million at least on this year teams a far cry from Minnesotas 50! And yes we do have a more solid team that last years!! Get over it that we lost CLEE and Ordonez, and get excited about our new GO GO White Sox!! I guarantee we will have the division pretty soon....

GO SOX!!!

MUsoxfan
12-14-2004, 02:48 AM
That's too much to digest this late at night

Chrisaway
12-14-2004, 02:53 AM
Well said. Hopefully we get that #3 starter before July.

GO SOX!!!!

ukigdog
12-14-2004, 02:56 AM
Oh, and i almost forgot.......

Was anyone else sick of seeing CLee get caught napping at first base........ or seeing CLee pop out to shallow right field or infield in a crutial at bat that killed a run we were getting on????

Dont get me wrong, I love the guy and wish him the best, but it was inevitable move!

tadscout
12-14-2004, 03:08 AM
With all of the complaining of the trade going on, I definitley agree with KW on this one!!

First off, the White Sox are always looked upon being in a big market city and thus should be big market spenders. However when taking a look at our situation, we split the market with the Cubs. Actually there are more Cubs fans then Sox in our city if we like it or not. For this reason we dont sell out every game like the Cubs do. So, yes we are in a large market but only get about 30 percent of it if that.

An example of the sox is simply like the Mets. The Mets share the city with the Yankees. Granted, the Mets have a higher payroll than the White Sox, however New York is a larger city than Chicago, and they have a bigger fan base.

So we are in a market where we are on a budget of what many call a "small market" team. I wouldnt say that we are even at that either. A small market team is the Royals or Brewers or Twins with 50 million or less payroll. News Flash for many out there , our payroll will be at 70-75 million --> not quite that of the true small market teams.

Given our strict budget in 2003, KW did what he could to field a winning team. Fans were promised that a payroll increase would occur if attendance increased and attendance increased, and guess what?? Our budget is going to increase from 60-65 million to 70-75 million as we were promised.

Now looking onto 2005. For the last five seasons we have gone into the season with a bopping tag team of Frank, Maggs, Konerko, CLee. That combination won us a whoppin 1 Division titles. The one year that this mentality did any kind of noise was in 2000 when we were swept away by the wild card team in the playoffs.

So when something doesnt work 4 years in a row, what do you do, leave it the same?? NO, you change it. When you look at teams that had a winning team from a so called small market budget, what do you see -- speed, defense, pitching!!! Take a look at the Florida Marlins, or the Twins every year. They are small budget players, but field speed, pitching and defense to win.

The only teams out there that can get away with the big boppers are those that have no limit on budget-- yankees, red sox, etc. That is the difference between the white sox the last four years and yankees,redsox. That is the reason the Sox coudnt win the last four years. They had their boppers, but were short in pitching and bullpen where the red sox and yankees spent alot of money.

In other words, what i am saying is that our bopping teams would have worked and won if we went out and solidified our starters and releivers by spending like the yanks and red sox. We didnt have that money! So KW has learned that the White Sox cannot get by with this anymore and has refocused the Sox to a winning combination.

I think that if the White Sox continue the way they are this offseason we will have a division winner in no time. The Management has finally realized that we need to go with speed, defense, and pitching.

Here is something to think about:

Last season if you think about it since we were without frank, maggs for almost all of the season our lineup looked like this for the most part of the season:

Rowand - Good hitter, good average, speed, power
Uribe - speed
Lee - Power, RBIs
Konerko - Power, RBIs
Everett
Gload
Crede
Davis
Willie

Essentially, this is a team with a good leadoff hitter, that would be more effective hitting at no. 2 spot, and two power hitters, with average hitters rounding out the lineup. This lineup got us an above .500 record!!!

Now looking at the team we will be fielding this year:

Podsednik - True leadoff hitter, speed, SB
Rowand - Prototype no. 2 hitter
Thomas - HR, Power
Dye - coming from PITCHERS PARK (Power, HR, RBI)
Konerko - Power, HR, RBI
Uribe
Crede
Davis
Willie

Essentially, this lineup is faster, better OPS, while haveing potentially 3 power hitters and not 2 like last year!

Now, remember the pitching rotation at the beginning of last year and bullpen?

Loaiza
Buehrle
Garland
Schoeneweiss
Wright

Adkins
Cotts
Politte
Mike Jackson
Marte
Shingo

And now....

Garcia
Buehrle
FA #3
Contreras
Garland

Cotts
Pollite
Hermanson
Vizcaino
Marte
Shingo

I dont need to say how much of improvement we have here.

In the end, I think that KW has done an extremely excellent job considering the budget restraints he has to deal with. Instead of blowing up at him we should sit back and look at the big picture.

Yes we are in a big market, but we dont have the resources of some of the big market teams for we are a minority in chicago due to the Cubs! We do spend more money than most small market teams however as it has been proven in that we are gonna put out 70 million at least on this year teams a far cry from Minnesotas 50! And yes we do have a more solid team that last years!! Get over it that we lost CLEE and Ordonez, and get excited about our new GO GO White Sox!! I guarantee we will have the division pretty soon....

GO SOX!!!
AMEN!!!:supernana:

SoxFan76
12-14-2004, 03:20 AM
AMEN!!!:supernana:Did you have to quote that whole post? Geez! :D:

OurBitchinMinny
12-14-2004, 03:22 AM
Oh, and i almost forgot.......

Was anyone else sick of seeing CLee get caught napping at first base........ or seeing CLee pop out to shallow right field or infield in a crutial at bat that killed a run we were getting on????

Dont get me wrong, I love the guy and wish him the best, but it was inevitable move!
not as tired as I will be of seeing scott posednik hit .240. The good clee brought to this team far outweigh the negatives. Bottom line, at face-value, we got hosed in this trade. Credit the brewers GM, i guess.

ukigdog
12-14-2004, 03:24 AM
You dont get it, you cant look at the trade being as CLee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. For Milwaukee, yes and to them that is great. For us it is more than that. We are esentially trading CLee for Podsednik, Vizcaino, and a FA Pitcher we will get now with the money we saved.

Chrisaway
12-14-2004, 03:45 AM
You dont get it, you cant look at the trade being as CLee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. For Milwaukee, yes and to them that is great. For us it is more than that. We are esentially trading CLee for Podsednik, Vizcaino, and a FA Pitcher we will get now with the money we saved.
Let's not forget the infamous PTBNL!!!

JoseCanseco6969
12-14-2004, 05:21 AM
Oh, and i almost forgot.......

Was anyone else sick of seeing CLee get caught napping at first base........ or seeing CLee pop out to shallow right field or infield in a crutial at bat that killed a run we were getting on????

Dont get me wrong, I love the guy and wish him the best, but it was inevitable move!
i admit, i think i am happier with losing Fagggs vs CLEE but as long as we get a third type starter its all good. I know this has been said but im drunk so sorry

Mohoney
12-14-2004, 05:23 AM
Let's not forget the infamous PTBNL!!!
I hope it's a minor league pitcher.

MUsoxfan
12-14-2004, 05:23 AM
i admit, i think i am happier with losing Fagggs vs CLEE but as long as we get a third type starter its all good. I know this has been said but im drunk so sorry
Many of us have been drunk on this board.....most of us regret it later, but it happens

ilsox7
12-14-2004, 05:25 AM
Many of us have been drunk on this board.....most of us regret it later, but it happens
I regret using my mobile phone when drunk more.

MUsoxfan
12-14-2004, 05:25 AM
I hope it's a minor league pitcher.

The Brewers have the #1 system in America.....about any player of theirs isn't worth complaining about for a while

gosox41
12-14-2004, 08:46 AM
Let's not forget the infamous PTBNL!!!

Quite possibly the best player the Sox will receive in the whole deal.



Bob

Tragg
12-14-2004, 08:53 AM
The Brewers have the #1 system in America.....about any player of theirs isn't worth complaining about for a whileTheir system is so good that their major league team hasn't played .500 in a decade and a half. We can't wait to load up on excess players from this 67 win monster of an organization.

Did yall see the price we paid to RENT Freddie Garcia for 1/2 a season? A starting catcher, a top outfield prospect and a near-top infield prospect. We're supposed to believe that Kenny Williams will nab a similar pitcher at mid-season, sign him long term, without hampering our club, all when we're likely 10 games out of first (if we go into the year with Garland, Grilli and this linuep).

Sounds like NO plan

A plan would be if Williams had that pitcher virtually locked up at the time of yesterday's trade. Hardy har har

More likely, at mid-season, we'll dump Konerko for two mid-tier minor leaguers and pick up 1/2 his remaining salary: "That's the best I could do - there's no market for hitters"

JRIG
12-14-2004, 08:59 AM
Their system is so good that their major league team hasn't played .500 in a decade and a half. We can't wait to load up on excess players from this 67 win monster of an organization.

Did yall see the price we paid to RENT Freddie Garcia for 1/2 a season? A starting catcher, a top outfield prospect and a near-top infield prospect. We're supposed to believe that Kenny Williams will nab a similar pitcher at mid-season, sign him long term, without hampering our club, all when we're likely 10 games out of first (if we go into the year with Garland, Grilli and this linuep).

Sounds like NO plan

A plan would be if Williams had that pitcher virtually locked up at the time of yesterday's trade. Hardy har har
A frequent defense of KW is that even though the Sox had the #1 rated fasrm system when he became GM it really didn't amount to anything.

So why should we believe there are any quality players in the Brewers system?

Tragg
12-14-2004, 09:07 AM
A frequent defense of KW is that even though the Sox had the #1 rated fasrm system when he became GM it really didn't amount to anything.

So why should we believe there are any quality players in the Brewers system?I know they have one: Ricky Weeks, whom I saw play a few times in college down here. He's supposed to be a stud 2B prospect now. I can't believe Williams couldn't have wrestled even the mediocre ginter out of the brewers in this deal; cause right now, part of that 6MM has got to go to a 3rd middle infielder, some kind of way. Unless we think alvarez or whatever his name is is ready for the job.

They say things look better in the morning; in this case, they look worse.

JRIG
12-14-2004, 09:09 AM
I know they have one: Ricky Weeks, whom I saw play a few times in college down here. He's supposed to be a stud 2B prospect now. I can't believe Williams couldn't have wrestled even the mediocre ginter out of the brewers in this deal; cause right now, part of that 6MM has got to go to a 3rd middle infielder, some kind of way. Unless we think alvarez or whatever his name is is ready for the job.

They say things look better in the morning; in this case, they look worse.
Obviously Prince Fielder too.

Yes, I'm also shocked KW wasn't even able to grab Ginter in the deal. Especially when Milwaukee still has Junior Spivey.

Hitmen77
12-14-2004, 09:13 AM
First off, the White Sox are always looked upon being in a big market city and thus should be big market spenders. However when taking a look at our situation, we split the market with the Cubs. Actually there are more Cubs fans then Sox in our city if we like it or not. For this reason we dont sell out every game like the Cubs do. So, yes we are in a large market but only get about 30 percent of it if that......

Yes we are in a big market, but we dont have the resources of some of the big market teams for we are a minority in chicago due to the Cubs! GO SOX!!!:reinsy
You're damn right! This has always been a Cubs town. How can I compete with a team that has a historic ballpark and built a huge fan base through games on free TV and people like Harry Caray and Sammy Sosa? The Sox never had those resources at their disposal!!

Tragg
12-14-2004, 09:14 AM
It's just a constant with this guy. He consistently takes the short end of the stick and is perfectly willing to do it. On occasion, the short end ends up better than the long tend; but long-term, it certainly won't and hasn't.

I wonder if he had actually scouted Pods before the winter meetings and he and his scouts noticed the "upper cut" swing hampering his hitting; or did he listen to Melvin bullsh$$, watch a minute of tape and say "boy you're right"


I wonder if he has a list in hand right now from which to select his PTBNL.

soxrme
12-14-2004, 09:53 AM
You dont get it, you cant look at the trade being as CLee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. For Milwaukee, yes and to them that is great. For us it is more than that. We are esentially trading CLee for Podsednik, Vizcaino, and a FA Pitcher we will get now with the money we saved.
I believe that this trade just is terrible. To lose Maggs and Carlos and replace them with a injury prone right fielder and a .244 hitter is not good. We still do not have a good shortstop, catcher. or second baseman. We have a hitters ballpark. The outfield defense does need as much help as the infield. We gave up too muc.:angry:

hawkeyesrule
12-14-2004, 10:06 AM
I can't judge this trade until I see where KW spends the extra money. I don't know what FA pitcher is going to come here for $6m, but we will see. Watching this whole thing is like watching the NFL or NBA with the salary cap. You'd think that since baseball has nothing of the sort, a team that wants to compete would go the extra mile and stretch the budget a little bit to get an impact player.

kittle42
12-14-2004, 10:47 AM
Well said. Hopefully we get that #3 starter before July.

GO SOX!!!!
:reinsy
"If you don't come out to the park, the only place that saved money is going is in the wallets of my fellow investors. Oh, wait....I think I'll put it there even if you do come out."

Cellview22
12-14-2004, 10:50 AM
Hey, at least we'll be starting the season without Koch!

mcfish
12-14-2004, 11:05 AM
Hey, at least we'll be starting the season without Koch!Hopefully...

mjharrison72
12-14-2004, 11:25 AM
Oh, and i almost forgot.......

Was anyone else sick of seeing CLee get caught napping at first base........ or seeing CLee pop out to shallow right field or infield in a crutial at bat that killed a run we were getting on????

Dont get me wrong, I love the guy and wish him the best, but it was inevitable move!It's the clutch pop-outs and K's I will not miss. That said, I will miss seeing him in LF!

DaleJRFan
12-14-2004, 11:30 AM
I was feeling fairly let down about not getting Ginter. All rumors pointed to him coming to the Sox in the deal, but they were just rumors. The dude hit 260 with 20+ HR last season in limited playing time. Plus, he can play third as well as second base.

Even with the amount of activity for the Sox, they still need a few additional reliable bench players, yes, grinders, such as Henry Mateo, Keith Ginter, Jose Vizcaino in addition to Timo, Willie and, um.. Joe freakin' Borchard.

nlentz88
12-14-2004, 11:40 AM
However when taking a look at our situation, we split the market with the Cubs. Actually there are more Cubs fans then Sox in our city if we like it or not. For this reason we dont sell out every game like the Cubs do. So, yes we are in a large market but only get about 30 percent of it if that.
Ukidog, I like your enthusiasm for Kenny's new roster, but I don't like the fact that you've adopted the JR position of, "Chicago is a Cubs town." Yeah, the Cubs are Chicago's most popular baseball team, but it hasn't always been so. The Sox used to be Chicago's premier team. It is my belief that the Sox can one day reclaim that title from the Cubs.

How can they do this? They should increase payroll to increase the team's chances for making the playoffs consistently and having a chance of going to and/or winning the world series. If the Sox consistently put exceptional teams on the field season after season and kept reaching the playoffs, Chicago would support the team with regular sell-outs, media love, etc.

I know that such a dream may seem improbable, but if you can't dream of glory then why even cheer for your team?

MeanFish
12-14-2004, 11:52 AM
Chicago could be a Sox town as soon as this year.

Look at the facts:
1.) Many people didn't like Valentin or Lee
2.) Scott Podsednik will bring more really hot women to the ballpark.
3.) These new fans will, in turn, bring more dudes to the ballpark.
4.) There is some fallout from the whiny, dysfunctional Cubs 2004 season.
5.) The White Sox, for all of their flaws, are a very exciting team to watch.
6.) The Cubs, aren't.
7.) One of the favorite Cubs players from the last couple years will play for us, chin pubes and all!
8.) Churro addiction.

:supernana:

Jurr
12-14-2004, 11:56 AM
I believe that this trade just is terrible. To lose Maggs and Carlos and replace them with a injury prone right fielder and a .244 hitter is not good. We still do not have a good shortstop, catcher. or second baseman. We have a hitters ballpark. The outfield defense does need as much help as the infield. We gave up too muc.:angry:
We DO have a good shortstop. Actually, Uribe would be a good second baseman, shorstop, or third baseman. He's that good. Second base is interesting. We'll see if we can add Cairo to the mix.
Oh, and when Uribe, Rowand, Konerko, Dye, Everett, and Crede all hit 20+ bombs this year, I don't think you'll be lamenting the power from the lineup this year. We can still put together a 170 or so homer year in that park regardless.
Now we have a guy that can get on base and steal the second one, so Aaron can bunt him over and the #3 guy can hit a sac fly and move him in. (run on sentence.) Then we have leads instead of seeing our offense stall like a '77 Oldsmobile on the side of lake Michigan. I am tired of seeing this team win a game 17-7 one night and then get shut out or lose 4-1 against some mid season call up. It's old, it's tired, and I'm glad that we made a change.

Jurr
12-14-2004, 12:07 PM
Ukidog, I like your enthusiasm for Kenny's new roster, but I don't like the fact that you've adopted the JR position of, "Chicago is a Cubs town." Yeah, the Cubs are Chicago's most popular baseball team, but it hasn't always been so. The Sox used to be Chicago's premier team. It is my belief that the Sox can one day reclaim that title from the Cubs.

How can they do this? They should increase payroll to increase the team's chances for making the playoffs consistently and having a chance of going to and/or winning the world series. If the Sox consistently put exceptional teams on the field season after season and kept reaching the playoffs, Chicago would support the team with regular sell-outs, media love, etc.

I know that such a dream may seem improbable, but if you can't dream of glory then why even cheer for your team?Yeah...I found out something interesting from a friend of mine that goes to see 80+ Cubs games a year (home and away). He is from the Memphis area, and he's got some consulting job (lots of travel.) Anyway, he is a die hard Cubs fan, and he's actually one with some cred. So, we're talking, and he says that he gets annoyed by all of the other fans in the stands at Wrigley when he goes. They don't watch the game, they stand up in front of him when nothing's going on, just to yell at friends (constantly) three rows up, and it goes on and on and on. He is convinced that 3/4 of every person at a Cubs game has no idea about the Cubs, save a few factoids. We all knew that already, but it's funny coming from a Cubs fan.

So, if the Sox start winning, and the "sexy" team to come see is wearing silver and black, a lot of those "hot spotters" will be in our stadium. I wouldn't care to see 'em, but they'll be spending money at the park and buying us new toys to see in the field. It is EASILY fathomable that the Sox could end up being Chicago's town. All they need to do is win.

jordan23ventura
12-14-2004, 12:51 PM
The whole 'small market' stuff has really gotten annoying.

Chicago is not a small market. It doesn't matter what percentage are Cubs fans and what percentage of it are Sox fans. The idea here is that if a winning team is put together in the third largest market in the country, people will notice. In case anyone has been sleeping since the last Bulls three-peat, there hasn't been much winning around here.

The Sox can capture the market and fill the stands. It's not brain surgery. Fun, exciting baseball + winning + summer + beer and nachos = fans. And lots of winning and lots of fans = Cubs loosening their grip on the market.

Jurr
12-14-2004, 12:58 PM
Well put.

Lip Man 1
12-14-2004, 01:23 PM
Jordan:

Excellent comment. If you are satisfied to be mediocre that's all you'll ever be.

Lip

soxnut
12-14-2004, 03:22 PM
I am tired of seeing this team win a game 17-7 one night and then get shut out or lose 4-1 against some mid season call up. It's old, it's tired, and I'm glad that we made a change.
YEP!:bandance:

Bisco Stu
12-15-2004, 12:34 AM
I'm not impressed with any of the moves, but a shake-up was necessary with this perpetually .500 squad. If we're not going to (or simply can't) acquire provenn winners like Unit & Finley, then I'd rather see the team build from the minors & establish a team with its own unique identity and not some assemblage of parts here & there.

Foulke29
12-15-2004, 12:43 AM
You dont get it, you cant look at the trade being as CLee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. For Milwaukee, yes and to them that is great. For us it is more than that. We are esentially trading CLee for Podsednik, Vizcaino, and a FA Pitcher we will get now with the money we saved.
As long as we don't go and spend the money in July!

jordan23ventura
12-15-2004, 12:44 AM
I'm not impressed with any of the moves, but a shake-up was necessary with this perpetually .500 squad. If we're not going to (or simply can't) acquire provenn winners like Unit & Finley, then I'd rather see the team build from the minors & establish a team with its own unique identity and not some assemblage of parts here & there.Ok, so the Sox trade every piece of talent they have for the best prospects in the best organizations. Say you end up with about 15-20 guys who are destined to 'make it.' Then, 5 of them make it. A couple others can come off the bench and maybe one is good in the bullpen.

Then, you have to go back to the same place you were at before and assemble parts here and there in order to win.

The ideal team is a good mix of cheap, young productive players, a couple big name pitchers at the front of your rotation and at the back of your bullpen, a few big bats in the middle of the lineup, and several 'role players.' With a strong farm system you can, theoretically, cycle out the older guys and some of the younger talent as they become FA's and replace them with others on the FA market and cycle in more youth.

But no matter what you can't start completely from scratch and expect things to work out. Cleveland is the only team I can think of that has been able to do that and recover after only a couple bad years, and they still need more parts.